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View Full Version : Using lead for body work



rockdogz
02-10-2005, 12:04 PM
What do you think about using lead for body work? I have a pretty bad quarter to fix, and someone remarked to me that although it is a hard skill to learn, using lead to repair something like this would give the best results. My prior plan was to weld up as much material as I could with the MIG and shape. I've never tried lead before, and have no idea how to do it, although I see at Eastwood they have the materials, how-to video, etc.

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68protouring454
02-10-2005, 12:19 PM
whether you lead that or weld evrything up solid you are gonna have way more time fixing the messed up 1/4 then putting a new one on, not sure if you have mini tubbed yet, but its very easy to do with the 1/4 off, i would really go for a goodmark full 1/4, or at least a 80%, it will really pay off in the long run, you won't have any spots with alot of filler on there that can lead to problems let alone the holes in the 1/4 that if they do not get sealed up, they will bubble with some time, any size hole will make it bubble, pin hole to one you can't see, goodluck
jake

Happyfunballs
02-10-2005, 12:27 PM
I'm with him.....quarter it, and minitub it while your at it.

Piet
02-10-2005, 12:35 PM
It looks like you have all the rust removed?
Can you get at it from the back (behind the panel)?

rockdogz
02-10-2005, 01:20 PM
I've already mini-tubbed, and replaced the trunk floor too, so I had my chance to remove the whole quarter. I decided to repair - too many people saying that a replacement quarter won't fit well - and won't look as good when you're done doing a repair. What do I know though... :hammer:

Piet
02-10-2005, 01:35 PM
I would work the lead from the back... through the holes... sand from the front.

rockdogz
02-10-2005, 02:38 PM
There really isn't any rust. Those holes are all repair holes I guess. I think it was hit a few times in the rear quarters...

Matt
02-10-2005, 02:51 PM
Lead body work is pricey, and not too many people do it, it's a bit of a dying art. I don't know anyone in socal that can do it personally, and I've only met one guy that does it.

Andrew McBride
02-10-2005, 03:09 PM
I had a post awhile back about trying to learn this. After a little research I found out that the body fillers out there have advanced a lot since the old school days, so lead work isn't needed. keep us posted

Andrew

rockdogz
02-10-2005, 04:40 PM
Hey Andrew,
Yeah I searched and found your post, which is how I found out about Eastwood. So basically if you do it right, body fillers now days are of good enough quality to avoid the shrinkage/cracking problems after several years? Hmm, I guess they have to be around for several years before we will know... Part of my concern is that I really need to cut out and replace metal here, but because of where the holes are, that doesn't look too easy to do on a curved surface. Maybe I should use a metal-based filler first, then proceed as normal after the area is built up...

BRIAN
02-10-2005, 08:20 PM
Lead work requires Oxy set up and you also need the skills to reverse some of the heat warp associated with it. That is a rough panel but looking at it it needs quite a bit more metal bumping before I would even attempt to put anything on it. Work the last in approach and get out all those deep grooves first. Be slow with your hammer work and check progress often. Use Long strand glass filler as base it is easier to use than the so called metal stuff and is very tough stuff. Sands hard so be as smooth as possible if that is possible with that stuff. Good luck. Never heard of filling holes with lead from behind but??

Ralph LoGrasso
02-10-2005, 09:13 PM
Have you thought about just replacing the lower quarter? I've got some bondo and a a patch on my passenger side lower quarter, and I'm planning on just replacing the lower quarter. I believe goodmark sells 'em. Lead body work is pretty hazardous. I'd just replace that lower quarter, and use conventional methods for the upper quarter.

MuscleRodz
02-10-2005, 09:41 PM
When you had the trunk and tubs out, you should have gone crazy with a hammer and dolly while you could get to alot of it. I would only use lead when a panel is not replaceable and to costly to reproduce. Neither is the problem with a Camaro. I agree with the others, get an 80% quarter and repair the bad area. A whole lot faster than trying to reprofile a quarter that looks like it has been in a wreck.

Mike

PT Dave
02-10-2005, 09:53 PM
Bumping out the major dents, hammer and dolly and then using the Shrinking Disc worked great for me. Took some time but very little body filler.

http://sunchasertools.com/

68protouring454
02-11-2005, 05:30 AM
do not use lead
and if you do hammer and dolly the panel out, make sure the smallest of holes is welded up, do not cover any hole up with any type of fiberglass bondo or whatever, it will bubble, on top of that 1,000s of 67-68s have 1/4s on them and it is not that big of an isue, just gotta triple check before welding it up, there is just way to good of a chance of the repair coming back out in time
i would not worry about bondo cracking after shirnkage, the new bondos are way better then in the 70's and 80's, you will not have issues with cracking unles there is 3/8 of an inch on a panel and someone bumps into it, goodluck, i would 80% it, but you could buy a 80& and cut only what you need for the back off it, then flange the original, and the patch and weld it up.
jake

Jagarang
02-11-2005, 06:23 AM
Why not patch panel it if you don't want to do the whole 1/4? I'm not a body man but a clean cut and patch panel seems like the next best alternative to a full or 80% 1/4. If you had or can find an original 1/4 with damage to the front/wheel well, or rusted wheel well you could make your own patch from it. This way you could "orient" the patch edges/seams in the best way to make them disappear into the final product. It's harder to explain than I thought it would be. Am I even making sense? I mean on a 69 rear quarter, you could terminate the upper seem just below the "beltline" that comes of the flattened rear wheel well. This way the seam would seem, to hide under/in the natural body detail, especially from a standing vantage point. Good body guy in most cases, with careful bodywork and patience, can make even a cross panel seam disappear in the final product right?
Your's not being a 69, perhaps the area covered by the bumper when it comes around the corner, then maybe use the marker light hole, which would also give positional references for placement, etc etc. I'm not sure that takes care of all the problem areas, but the lower most section with the rounded profile would certainly be taken care of. Then perhaps you could work the rest with conventional materials.
Am I a raving lunatic?

rockdogz
02-11-2005, 02:22 PM
How about a panel skin, like this (http://67.37.173.213/rDetails1b.asp?cat=Camaro&CAT2=&rProductID=A4020-600-67L) - is this what you mean? Think this would be easier than the whole quarter? Looks like you don't have to mess with the door jamb or trunk opening.

Jagarang
02-11-2005, 02:59 PM
I think thats what everybodies refering to as an 80% quarter.

68protouring454
02-11-2005, 04:51 PM
yes that is a skin, but the goodmark one goes up into the window sash and back along the bottom of the sail panel, doen into trunk jamb. the facotry 1/4 goes inside door jamb, inside ttrunk jamb, to 1/4 rear panel seam, this way you have no major body work to to, some on sail panel and some at tail panel, where as the 80% you have to weld below upper body line all the way to trunk, which you have a great chance at warping it to hell, but iwoudl rather see an 80% go on then mess with the mess you have.
have the 1/4s ever been repalced??
jake

rockdogz
02-11-2005, 06:41 PM
I'm not sure if they have been replaced, I would say not but just repaired. There does look to be some repair/welding on the rear window channel and around the trunk opening though. I just don't think the quarters were totally replaced because of their condition and plus when I replaced the trunk side panels, about 35 years of dirt was stuck in there absorbing moisture and starting to rust the quarters from the inside.

BRIAN
02-11-2005, 08:47 PM
Repairing it is a free try so I would go for it. I have done worse. Putting a skin will use just as much plastic. Do not mig weld any holes until you get it bumped out as mig weld is not workable. After it is straight close the holes and give first wipe of Kitty Hair, then proceed with poly plastic. That is heavy sheetmetal and is workable with the right amount of patience. If you do not have the skills changing the 1/4 will cause even larger mess.

rockdogz
02-11-2005, 11:41 PM
The metal is very thin around the holes. It sounds to me like cutting out the bad area, flanging the existing metal, and then welding a patch on would produce a better result. I haven't done either type of repair before though so I'm not sure. Why do you say that a patch will require just as much plastic?

68protouring454
02-12-2005, 07:38 AM
it will use just as much filler cause you will have a huge weld seamon a 80% 1/4, if you did a complete 1/4, you would use barely any, but the 80% will have a 4-5 ft seam that you will need to weld solid, taking your time, not to heat it up too much, i would weld an inch or so at a time going back and forth to each end, i would take a whole day top weld it at least, just inbetween welding work on another area of the car.
but like you said if you do not do the whole thing, buy the 80% 1/4 then cut a patch out of it you need, i would splice right under the belt line about an inch,ack to say an inch off the tail panel, and then probaly an inch or so off the wheel well, make the new patch over lap by way of flanging, and tack weld up, then tack away until its solid welded, grind, check for pin holes, touch up, then fill away, using a fiber resin bondo first if you wish, but if it is no more than a 1/16th or an 1/8 i would put a good quality filler to it, goodluck
jake

trapin
02-13-2005, 04:35 PM
Tom...patch panel, then fill in with Evercoat Everglass and skim with Evercoat Rage. Just make sure it's thin. You should be fine.

Duesey
02-16-2005, 09:20 AM
Definetely don't lead it. You would have clean every square inch of the metal removing every divit of bondo out of there. The heat would probably warp the heck out of the panel and it would cost more than 80 dollars in lead pieces. Lead doesn't go very far and it goes alot less on vertical surfaces since a lot of it will be on the floor. I'd suck it up and quarter it. Your gonna have trouble with paint shrinking in that area and unless you get some of the AFS sanders it's probably gonna be really wavy.

BRIAN
02-17-2005, 05:42 PM
Hey cut it off send it to me and I will send it back straight and you can weld back on.

rockdogz
02-17-2005, 11:05 PM
Heh, if I cut it off, I would just weld a new one on. :smoke:
Now what would it take to get you to come out and fix it up on the car?? :cheers:

rockdogz
04-28-2005, 08:49 PM
I am just about ready to start in on this - I bought the 80% panel from Classic. When I started looking at it though, now I'm thinking it over again and have thoughts of doing the whole quarter. There is still a good bit of damage that the 80% piece won't cover. Anyone have any advice on the whole quarter replacement? The area around the door looks easy enough, but I'm trying to figure out how it attaches to the rocker panel and the outer wheelwell. Also, how do you separate the sail panel seam - I heard you just heat up the lead? I think this quarter has been replaced before, so I'm not sure what I'll find.

68protouring454
04-29-2005, 04:31 AM
what you do is cut out old 1/4 about 1/2 inch from rocker seam, wheel well, and tail panel, thenm you can access the spot welds to drill them out, this goes for all three spots, then clean the flange up, as for sail panel heat led up tilit melts and scrape it away, you will then see the overalpped part and you will be able to drill/grind etc, alot of times you will have to do an outer wheel house as they do not fit good everytime and you end up fighting with it, this is easy to remove if 1/4 is off, then mock up 1/4, make sure to have door properly aligned before cutting old 1/4 off, then triple check all gaps before welding, once welded install outer wheel house, modify as needed, i would rather have a modified wheel house than a modified 1/4,
why doesn't the 80% cover your damage, usually the 80% go from door jamb all the way to tail panel, then they go to bottom of sail panel?
jake

Duesey
05-04-2005, 07:33 AM
You will have to heat the body hot enough to tin the area your leading. Then you will heat the body in order to spread the lead in a semi liquid state. It's a nice repair with lead, but inexperience on a side panel like that will cause more of a mess than a lot of metal finishing and a skim of mud.

Camaro Zach
05-11-2005, 10:46 PM
If your going to do the whole quarter do as 68protouring454 said and cut 1/2" around everything. I heated up the lead and scraped it away with a wire brush. Right there where the quarter meets the sail panel can be a PITA because of all the spot welds. There are alot underneath the lead but thats not all of them. you will have to get inside the car and drill out 3 or 4 more from the inside. It took me quite a bit of time to do all that but the finished product looks factory. And yea triple check all your gaps before doing your final welding. I even had a member come over and check out my car to get a second opinion before i welded it all up.
Good luck Tom just take your time and you'll get it right

rockdogz
05-13-2005, 12:43 PM
Crap I went and returned the 80% quarter I got from classic and they don't have any full quarters. They said that they were re-doing the tooling because of fitment problems. I guess I'm better off - would hate to get one and not have it fit. I checked out where to get a goodmark quarter because people have said they fit well, but I don't think there's a place to get them locally and they want $150 truck freight to ship it. Dang it!! I should have kept the 80% and gave it a try - the worst thing that could happen would be that I would need to replace the whole thing anyway. Well, I picked up some door skins so that should keep me busy, and I will probably end up going back to get the 80%...again. Makes me want to just :banghead:

rockdogz
05-13-2005, 12:48 PM
Aha.. you know what I was wrong. I didn't get an 80% quarter - it was just a skin. I saw a pic of the 80% on mattsclassicbowties.com and it would definitely be better for me since I need to replace some of the tail pan extension area. Now I just have to find a place local for that! Shipping from Rick's was going to be like $175!!

68protouring454
05-14-2005, 01:54 AM
look into a goodmark 80% 1/4 panel, it will have what you need for material, and is a decent price, try national parts depot, they have a 100 dollar flate rate up to 300lbs truck freight deal, i just ordered some 67 mustang stuff from them, i ordered from michigan
jake

Camaro Zach
05-14-2005, 10:11 PM
i'd go with the goodmark i have had good luck. And if you order more stuff they'll throw it in the box with the quarter and not charge you extra freight. Just an FYI :)

rockdogz
05-29-2005, 08:23 AM
For the 80%, should I butt weld it on, or flange, punch holes, and plug weld it on?

68protouring454
05-29-2005, 08:30 AM
tom , i would flange the new 80% and slip it under where you cut the car, and then stich weld the seam, skipping around until its solid, i would take your time and take a whole day to do it, maybe only an hr of welding but let stuff cool, do not squelch it with water, it will only warp worse
i would use whole window channel area, then splice down into trunk, butt weld when it goes into trunk jamb area, the overlap will help with warping as well with laying down nice spotwelds as you will have 2 layers of metal to weld, get heat right so both peices melt into each other with little build up, goodluck

jake

rockdogz
05-29-2005, 01:55 PM
I don't have a flange tool - do you recommend the manual one (http://www.eastwood.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=1590&itemType=PRODUCT&RS=1&keyword=flange) or the pneumatic one (http://www.eastwood.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=1587&itemType=PRODUCT&RS=1&keyword=flange)?

68protouring454
05-29-2005, 02:05 PM
i have never used a manual one, go for the air flange tool, easier and should make a better flange, goodluck
jake

blackwidow
05-30-2005, 02:20 PM
just use some all-metal and thin coat of filler mike

rockdogz
05-30-2005, 04:09 PM
Ok, is this really a good idea? I've always read that you should cut out bad metal and replace it. True, this isn't rust, but will all metal and filler do a good job, or is it a patchwork fix at best? I'm sincerely not sure since I'm a beginner...

68protouring454
05-30-2005, 06:48 PM
do what you like, but i would replace it, it will be easier to get the welded seem straight compared to the round 1/4 panel, just go after it
jake

blackwidow
05-31-2005, 01:59 PM
looking at your pic. is the holes in the back the only problem area, if so i would not rip the 1/4 off for that. repo panels don`t line up for ****. if its good metal mig the holes or all-metal mike

rockdogz
05-31-2005, 02:46 PM
My current plan is to get an 80% quarter and cut out a patch panel from that - mostly from the tail panel to close to the wheelwell. I'm not sure how high to go. If this fails and comes out bad, I figure then I can always replace with a full quarter if necessary. The metal around the holes is very thin - welding would easily punch through all the metal. The whole rear of the quarter is pretty messed up:

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