Russell braided SS fuel line failure

[parsonsj]

After my main fuel hose failed last weekend, I've been slowly getting the parts together to re-engineer my fuel delivery setup. I pulled all the Russell SS hose off my car since I'm converting it all to hard line, except a short hose to allow for engine movement where required. Most of the car was already using hard line, but I got a bit lazy at the end of the build and used about 3 feet of hose in the pressure side and 4 feet on the return side.

Anyway, tonight I pulled the hose ends off of one short hose (from the fuel rail, so it saw 42 psi), and cut the hose apart.

Check it out: what an unbelievable garbage piece of hose!! This hose has been in service for just over 2 years, and has less than 2000 miles. Russell really has some explaining to do.

jp

[CarlC]

That's ugly.

[72NovaSS]

Thats so wrong for a company to put out a product like that!

[Hammered]

CR@P! That's what I'm running although just a few short sections here and there. Still, it only takes one to fail and burn the car down. How you discover the first failure?

[parsonsj]

How [did] you discover the first failure?
I noticed that my fuel level was going down at an alarming rate. When I got home I had a big puddle of gasoline all over the floor. It was pretty hard to miss... the scariest part was that the gas was dripping on the headers.

jp

[Bow Tie 67]

Thanks for the info John, it seems like its always something.

[parsonsj]

And btw, I've received no response from Edelbrock (Russell's parent company):

I'm writing to alert you about a problem with your Russell brand SS ProFlex hose. I've been using it in my fuel-injected 67 Nova for the past two years. I had about 30 inches of hose feeding my main fuel rails, and another 8-10 inches in the fuel rails themselves. I run my setup with 42 psi.

Last week, my main fuel hose failed, with fuel gushing out. This is after barely 1300 miles of road use, spread over the past two years. I removed all the Russell hose, and cut one of the sections in the fuel rail apart (this was not the failure, but a lot easier to cut up). I've included a photo of it. It has several cracks, and one large crack that would have failed at any time. I found the same cracks in all the main fuel line hose. It seems to me that the hose is incompatible with pump gas, but I would very much appreciate your take on the matter.

Regards,

John Parsons

[Fuelie Nova]

Just curious what you are going to replace it with. I also have two flex lines approx 24" long going to my fuel rail. Three years old, 45 psi...
I think I should replace them.
Tg

[MastMotorsports]

John,

I am a consumer of this product as well and am very interested in figuring out the cause of this failure. I am curious as to how this piece of hose was configured in your fuel system. Looking at the discoloration of the hose, it looks like there were two fittings placed close together in the system. The piece of hose that the fitting attaches to and some hose thereafter should be under higher stress to create the seal at the hose end. Having two fittings close together could cause a highly stressed section of hose that also (if I understood you correctly) is the main piece absorbing the movement of the engine in relation to the chassis.

If your system is configured this way...I am not saying that two fittings so close together caused the failure, but I would like to hear your thoughts and input about this. Maybe some pics of a longer length of hose not located around fittings would shed light on the possible causes of this failure.

Shaun
Mast Motorsports
High Performance Powertrain Solutions
[email protected] ([email protected])
www.mastmotorsports.com (http://www.mastmotorsports.com/)

[parsonsj]

Hi Shaun,

Good question! That photo is of a section of hose from between the fuel rails. It had no movement as both ends were attached to a rail. I included it in the thread because it was convenient to cut apart and photograph.

Here's a pic of the section of failed hose that was between the fuel rail and chassis. As you can see, the failure mode is the same. One more thing I'd add: the hose feels hard and crusty. As if it were very old. Cutting it is more like whittling wood than cutting rubber.

jp

[parsonsj]

Just curious what you are going to replace it with.I'm going to replace the hose with hard line, plus a short 12" section of PTFE-lined hose from Brown and Miller.

jp

[MastMotorsports]

Hi Shaun,

Good question! That photo is of a section of hose from between the fuel rails. It had no movement as both ends were attached to a rail. I included it in the thread because it was convenient to cut apart and photograph.

Here's a pic of the section of failed hose that was between the fuel rail and chassis. As you can see, the failure mode is the same. One more thing I'd add: the hose feels hard and crusty. As if it were very old. Cutting it is more like whittling wood than cutting rubber.

jp

Thanks John! That is exactly what I was hoping you would post up. This picture shows alot of information in analyzing this failure. I do have one question...what kind of fuel does your engine run? I would like to get to the bottom of this issue.

Thanks,

Shaun
Mast Motorsports
High Performance Powertrain Solutions
[email protected] ([email protected])
www.mastmotorsports.com (http://www.mastmotorsports.com/)

[Damn True]

Dang!

Any response from Vic's boys? I wish you'd have said something sooner. I spent about 30min speaking with Vic last week at the Wine Country Classic.

[Vegas69]

That is a really dangerous situation for many on the road right now if it's not related to your application. I am also interested in the type of fuel you run? I have been using Jegs AN fittings and hose. I hope Russell doesn't make it too.

[jknight16]

Yeah, Jegs stuff here too. Wonder who makes it, hope its not the same... :fingersx:

[parsonsj]

I run pump gas. 93 octane from the station on the corner.

And yes, I think this is a dangerous situation.

And no, I've not heard back from Edelbrock.

jp

[Fuelie Nova]

I'm going to replace the hose with hard line, plus a short 12" section of PTFE-lined hose from Brown and Miller.



I just emailed them to get info. I have a fuel injected Nova using the same hose you had. Driving it from Minneapolis to Gettyburg next month... don't need a fuel line failure.
Tg

[Boulder69]

I've got Earl's (non-braided) line from the pump near the tank to the rails. Should I be concerned as well? Is it all the funky stuff in gas these days that causes problems? I'm gonna go check and see if it feels hardened like Parsons described.

[Hammered]

There's a lot of info out there on low sulfur fuel causing rubber parts failures, but most of it is with diesel.

[parsonsj]

From Edelbrock:

John,
This hose is compatible with pump gas. The normal life expectancy of this hose is from 4 to 6 years, with normal use, not sitting dry for extended periods of time. The worst thing for this hose is to sit dry after fuel has been ran thru it. If you have a receipt we may be able to assist you with this situation.

So, Edelbrock says to keep the hose immersed in fuel, and it will last longer. Maybe use checkballs or something to keep fuel pressure in the rails?

jp

[Fuelie Nova]

I dont know... still sounds like finding a better quality hose is the best bet.
Tg

[Chevy]

I am running hard lines everywhere. regular steel, 3/8" brake lines from NAPA. Bent mostly by hand with double flares. Where i need a short section of flexible hose i use SAE J30 rated hose. This is the standard for fuel injection rubber hose from the OEMs. You can buy 3/8" fittings that screw into your 3/8" double flare and go to a barb, use a short section of this hose with a worm clamp. It's not as sexy as the braided stuff, but come on...who wants to replace their braided hoses ever 3-4 years?? The J30 rated hose costs way less than the Russel stuff (in bulk it is only about $1/foot) and is sold by the foot at NAPA or your local parts store. Goodyear happens to be the manufacturer of the stuff i get here.

[parsonsj]

So I've finally finished the re-do of my fuel plumbing (and some more as well). My main fuel supply has 6" of flex line (which is Earl's ProLite 350 stuff for the time being). All the rest is hard line.

The return line still has over 30" of flex line, but I didn't see any evidence of failure in the return system using the Russell hose. I tried, but there just wasn't an easy and classy way to use less hose in the return line. I'm also using Earl's ProLite hose for that.

jp

[Steve N 69 69 69]

That looks nice John.
Sucks about the hose failure, especially since I'm using about 12 feet of -8a.n. Russel "proflex" in my car. AND, I have to cycle the pump 3 or 4 times to get feul to the rails, if the cars been parked for a few days ( weeks) so the lines are definately sitting there dry. I was thinking Stainless hose was lifetime, or atleast 10 years or better, when I shelled out the big bucks for the stuff. Do you know of any ball check valve type setups, that wont hurt flow??

Whats the deal with wanting a receipt? are they gonna give you back the money for the line?
Maybe they should come out with better "consumerFlex" hose, that you dont have to replace after every race! ( so I can still use my F'n Russel hose ends)

[EFI69Cam]

From Edelbrock:

John,
This hose is compatible with pump gas. The normal life expectancy of this hose is from 4 to 6 years, with normal use, not sitting dry for extended periods of time. The worst thing for this hose is to sit dry after fuel has been ran thru it. If you have a receipt we may be able to assist you with this situation.

So, Edelbrock says to keep the hose immersed in fuel, and it will last longer. Maybe use checkballs or something to keep fuel pressure in the rails?

jp

If the problem was the drying out, would not the return line be crusty as well?

[parsonsj]

If the problem was the drying out, would not the return line be crusty as well?Good question. I wish I'd thought of that. Here's what I did write:

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the reply.

I can't find the receipt for the hose (bought at Summit in spring 2006), though I do have receipts for the hundreds of dollars in Endura hose ends, NPT adapters, and bulkhead fittings I've bought to plumb my car.

Anyway, I appreciate the situation you're in: you can't very well give away hose to everybody who writes in with a complaint.

It seems odd to me that Edelbrock/Russell would sell hose to car enthusiasts whose vehicles would tend to fit the exact failure mode you mention: sitting dry for long times between use. I doubt many cars with ProFlex SS hose see daily or near daily use. What would you recommend as replacement hose that will deal with occasional use?

thanks again,

John Parsons

[parsonsj]

That looks nice John.
Sucks about the hose failure, especially since I'm using about 12 feet of -8a.n. Russel "proflex" in my car. AND, I have to cycle the pump 3 or 4 times to get feul to the rails, if the cars been parked for a few days ( weeks) so the lines are definately sitting there dry. I was thinking Stainless hose was lifetime, or atleast 10 years or better, when I shelled out the big bucks for the stuff. Do you know of any ball check valve type setups, that wont hurt flow??

Whats the deal with wanting a receipt? are they gonna give you back the money for the line?
Maybe they should come out with better "consumerFlex" hose, that you dont have to replace after every race! ( so I can still use my F'n Russel hose ends)Thanks. Hard lines have a more industrial look than SS hose, so I like it better for appearance's sake too. I don't think I'd use check balls myself... I get to full pressure in about 3 seconds with my A1000 pump. I too thought that SS hose was ultimate quality hose. Lifetime use, good for cars, aircraft, hell, even spacecraft. Replacing it every few years doesn't fit my picture either. I guess the receipt is to find a way to refund my money. I suppose...

I guess I'd recommend you replace the hose with something else. I think its use in hobbyist cars cannot be a good idea. If nothing else, perhaps other readers of this thread will use something else for their plumbing needs.

Maybe if you wrote to Edelbrock, you can get a refund for your hose. I wrote to [email protected]

jp

[eville]

If you got it from summit I'd bet they can track down a receipt for you.
I'd try for a refund. That's BS.

I've been using aeroquip socketless on my car. I'll be keeping a close eye on it...

[parsonsj]

Aeroquip has what they call "AQP" hose which I always assumed was just a marketing moniker. The socketless stuff is AQP too. Anybody know if Aeroquip hose is substantially better than Russell?

jp

[Steve N 69 69 69]

I have some extra pieces of Russel hose. Mines been on the car (running) for 2 years this August. I'm going to take off the shortest section on the car, and do a little autopsy. If it looks like crap, I'm changing it all out, with something else. If it looks OK, I can build a new short piece to replace the sacraficial section.

[parsonsj]

Ooh... I love it! We are going to do an experiment!

Please post what you find. I'd love to see what your hose looks like. In a purely platonic way, of course. :)

jp

[Fuelie Fan]

IMPORTANT: J30 is only part of it. It must say J30R9. R7 will fail in fuel injected applications.



I am running hard lines everywhere. regular steel, 3/8" brake lines from NAPA. Bent mostly by hand with double flares. Where i need a short section of flexible hose i use SAE J30 rated hose. This is the standard for fuel injection rubber hose from the OEMs. You can buy 3/8" fittings that screw into your 3/8" double flare and go to a barb, use a short section of this hose with a worm clamp. It's not as sexy as the braided stuff, but come on...who wants to replace their braided hoses ever 3-4 years?? The J30 rated hose costs way less than the Russel stuff (in bulk it is only about $1/foot) and is sold by the foot at NAPA or your local parts store. Goodyear happens to be the manufacturer of the stuff i get here.

[CarlC]

John,

I agree that hose of this type should be rated for pump fuels, wet or dry on the inside. It is not reasonable to have the interior of the hose fully immersed in fuel at all times.

Edelbrock is an aftermarket car parts company. I'll bet that the bulk of their products are only used intermittently. That is the nature of their business. Oh, and I'm willing to bet that there was no instruction sheet or anything on their website stating that the hose should only be used at 100% duty cycle? Ugh.

I'm staying away from that stuff from now on.

Have you checked out the OE plastic replacement hose systems? They are pretty slick. I'll likely go that route if I ever have to re-do an entire system.

Thanks for being an expensive guinea pig.

[parsonsj]

Oh, and I'm willing to bet that there was no instruction sheet or anything on their website stating that the hose should only be used at 100% duty cycle? Not one word about immersion. Only that the hose is rated for fuel.
Have you checked out the OE plastic replacement hose systems? They are pretty slick. No. Got a link or a pointer somewhere? I'll definitely check it out.

jp

[Blown353]

John... for reference I recently changed a piece of XRP braided hose on my car earlier this year when I moved a fuel filter. It had 5 years of use on it with California pump gas and still looked and felt just like some new hose I had. No cracks or any other odd behavior or properties.

I've got 2 runs of XRP hose on my car that are 7 years old now, 2 with a carb and 5 with the EFI. No issues with it yet.

I've also found the XRP hose less "stinky" with gas vapors that other brands of braided. It still gives off a little odor but nowhere near as much as other brands IMO.

[Tiger]

I have some feet of Russel hose in the shop, brand new... I guess I'll have the neighbourhoods most fancy garden hose now... to bad its only AN-6 :o)

I'll do hardline as much as possible I guess

[gearheads78]

My guess is this is the same hose they have been making for 20+ years with no changes. The problem is todays fuels with its government required ethonol is hard on fuel systems of all kinds. I deal with 2006 30k mile luxury cars on a weekly basis with badly deteriorated fuel lines for this very reason. Lexus has a campaign going on right now with GS300/350s to replace fuel rail lines.

If the aftermarket does not taking the fuel today seriously and change the compounds to work with todays fuels there will be lots of trouble ahead.

I'm glad this did not turn out bad as it could have and thanks for sharing you findings.

[Steve N 69 69 69]

Ooh... I love it! We are going to do an experiment!

Please post what you find. I'd love to see what your hose looks like. In a purely platonic way, of course. :)
jp


LMFAO....:lol: nice one. I 'll try to whip it out for a look this weekend.

[ProVette]

A few years back I looked into the best stainless steel braid hose you could buy, after a long look, I found Goodridge 200 hose.

http://www.productengr.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=PRDENG&Category_Code=Hose

[parsonsj]

The latest from Edelbrock:

(emphasis added)

John,
You should be able to get a receipt thru Summit. If you come up with a receipt we can warranty the hose for you, or you can use this credit towards our products at equal or less value. The most durable hose we sell is the Twist-lok hose. This hose does use different fitting, you can not use this hose with the fittings for the Proflex.

jp

[Karch]

Regarding the return hose being dry most of the time. Keep in mind that since the return is under much less pressure, problems will not surface is readily. Pressure and tight bends are really good at provoking things that may fail to fail.

I have visited XRP in the past, as I have been in the fluids business (transfer, pumping, metering, etc) for years.

While I have yet to use their products, my thoughts were they take their stuff very seriously, and pride themselved on what they produce.

They are not interested in selling the most product, but the best. So, they will not compete with some of the more common brands as they won't take shortcuts.

If EPA regulations mandate different fuels, and in so doing the material compatibility changes, I'd be willing to bet they will be on top of it, which is something to think about if buying used or old stock.

I have some steel braid hose that "sweated". Nasty, stinky, and dangerous, and I thought I was buying good stuff because I was tired of having rubber hose leaks and softening of the hoses.

Good luck.

BTW, is the J30R9 available in larger sizes?