Camaro stillborn?

[zbugger]

Saw this article posted on another site. Wondering what you guys think of it.

http://www.ericpetersautos.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=507&Itemid=10849

[BonzoHansen]

Since GM already annouced production models will be in Indy in Sept, I doubt it. That is the thoughts of a writer.

[TonyL]

OMG the sky if falling!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Seriously, I doubt they'd pull the plug this late in the game.

[TonyHuntimer]

I doubt it will get cancelled. But who knows with this recession and CAFE standards?

I'm betting that he wrote the article so he could say, "I told you so" if it does happen. He's a regular Nostrodamus.

Waiting,
Tony Huntimer
RaceHome.com

[JLM]

I don't see it happening. The large trucks and suv's get much worse mileage, and I don't see GM, Ford, or Chrysler (dodge) getting out of at least the truck markets over CAFE.

The business model is changing, and shifting towards smaller, more fuel efficient cars. However, even in the recession, there is still quite a bit of discretionary purchasing going on. There will always be joe blow with a little econo-box that has the money for a camaro, and will buy it.

At the worst we may see a car down on power from what we're expecting, and maybe taller gearing. Outside of that, I wouldn't expect much.

[CHRIS67]

I can't see that it will be cancelled, but I would say that sales could be slow based upon the economy and the price of gas. On the other hand if gear heads like us want something bad enough we'll buy it; gas and the economy take a back seat to performance.

[barraza]

That article is written by an idiot with no understanding of how automobile production works. It takes years to engineer, prototype, certify and make tooling for a new car. An increase in gas prices this close to introduction CAN NOT change anything!! It will probably not sell as well as the forecasts, particularly the HP models, but canceling at this date is not an option.

[ho428]

I think GM is making a huge mistake not producing it as a Trans Am. The renderings are much better than the Camaro. I'd never buy the maro, but would the T/A in a "Heartbeat"

[James OLC]

I don't see it happening. The large trucks and suv's get much worse mileage, and I don't see GM, Ford, or Chrysler (dodge) getting out of at least the truck markets over CAFE.


GM's announcement Tuesday that they are closing 4 truck plants (in 2009) due to increased fuel costs and decreased demand nothwithstanding?

I'm not suggesting that the article is correct but don't assume that it can't happen.

And given that the CAFE target is 2020 (IIRC) - stillborn seems very unlikely. If they were in the early design stages now (for say a 2015 model) I could see it, but a year out?

Peter's has a identified an issue facing the automakers but he has (to a large degree) missed the point. What we will see over the next 10 years will be some serious technical innovations and/or (like it or not) some sacrifices being made in power and size. This won't stop performance car design and manufacturing - but it will inevitably change it.

[parsonsj]

We need some actual information to figure out what GM is going to do. The writer's and our opinions don't really matter much.

The truck plant closing is very interesting, though.

jp

[Jim Nilsen]

The only thing he left out of the equation with all of the doom and gloom is the start of world government and the abolishment of the USA.:hand:

I believe that the number of people that are looking for the answers is getting bigger everday and Congress will have to listen to them and take a few steps back. It used to be emissions that raised the efficiency of the auto but now it is the price of gas. The thing about high gas prices is that you get less emissions and use less gas with no changes in efficiency and emissions because the country uses less gas regardless of the mileage requirement. So supply and demand is still working,just not at the political level yet. Just wait until the supply and demand of good Congressmen comes to vote.

There are the questions the need to be asked , What does the real majority think about the enforcement of these new laws ? We can change our law makers and their minds if they still choose to be one in a headhunting world they are creating. Changing minds will hopefully be easier than changing the world and the laws of physics.

Back to the Camaro not being built? It will be the choice of a lot of people who actually are stepping up to higher mileage from the SUV they drive now. It has the chance to be in the same spot as the 64 1/2 Mustang and appeal to a much wealthier crowd than is expected.

The truck plant near me in Janesville Wi. is supposed to be shut down in 2010 due to sales along with 3 other plants. Unexpected things are going to be driven into place just because and some of those things will be pickup truck owners buying Camaros. More room,rear wheel drive and better mileage for those that just had a truck for looks ,rwd and headroom.

Besides, I just might buy one if they make it .

The dumping of the truck line at 4 plants will increase their numbers on paper rather quickly. The last time Congress gave car companies average mileage rules it backfired and eveyone bought trucks but it all looked good on paper when the auto makers gave the predictions to Congress. Remember that CAFE standards are based on what is offered and not what is bought !!!!! This time gas prices will drive them to cars like the new Camaro especially when trucks will probably get a usage restriction on them in the future to add to more stupid laws and sidestepping the auto manufactures.

I'm done , for now but this is just some of what had to leak out before I was too full of all this crap today.

[Samckitt]

Since GM already annouced production models will be in Indy in Sept, I doubt it. That is the thoughts of a writer.

Why Indy?

[jknight16]

To cancel the Camaro now would cost GM far more than they would ever be willing to accept. Just chalk up the R&D, marketing, testing, and tooling up to sunk costs? I don't think so folks. What they are going to do, however, (they've already said they're going to do this so this is not my opinion) is make about 2/3 of Camaro production be the 300+ hp direct injected V6 model that may get as much fuel mileage as the hundreds of other models in U.S. dealerships that are not on the media's doom and gloom radar as a result of CAFE standards. Now isn't that a far more logical sounding solution? I think the guy probably just forgot to put on his tinfoil hat that day.

The other third of production will be left for guys like us who love our LS motors (wish I had one...) and are willing to realize that we can still get 25 mpg + on the freeway with our 6 speed V8's.

[ZZ430]

Yeah, "the horse is out of the barn" now.

They MUST continue production.

[trapin]

Yeah I have a feeling this Eric Peters guy is a free lance writer for a good reason; nobody will hire him. His article is very bold and I suspect he'll take it down immediately when the car goes into production and ignore any inquiring e-mails he might get about it.

Not a very smart journalist. Probably why he doesn't have a job.

[Nine Ball]

Look how well the V8 powered Pontiac G8 GT is selling, you can't really find them on the lots at the moment. You can find several V6 models though. The Camaro shares platform similarities to the G8, and will sell.

[6'9"Witha69]

Why Indy?Truck plant. THey are set to reduce the truck SUV output by 700,000 units by 2010 and shutting down 2 US, 1 Canada and 1 Mexico factories they will do just that. No word from GM on whether new vehicles may be built there.

[James OLC]

I still don't get the Indy comment myself. The truck announcement earlier this week notwithstanding, Camaro production is coming out of the Oshawa, Ontario plant. It looks like the robots are busy sorting things out there now on prototypes...

Camaro5: Pre-production Pics (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4198)

[jknight16]

Totally seperate issues guys...here is what the Indy comment was in reference to:

General Motors, Chevrolet Division and the Central Indiana Camaro Club would like to announce an exciting new development in the Camaro world. We have now been authorized to release information that the new production Camaros will be in attendance and unveiled at the Indy 08, Back at the Brickyard Event in September. The car will be unveiled at the event and many different models/engine combos will be available for the general public to review. Expect to see many different color combinations as well.

The 'Back at the Brickyard' Event will be happening in Indianapolis Indiana from September 19-21, 2008 at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. Hundreds of Camaros, Firebirds, and Pace Car owners will be in attendance to celebrate the unveiling and enjoy this historic event. GM Dignitaries will be in attendance as well to discuss the design, engineering, marketing, and accessories for this new model of Camaro. Vendors will also be on hand displaying their products.

[BRIAN]

Just like the 70's all over again. GM is producing v8's and the Imports are honing the high mile fun to drive compacts. When gas hits $5.00 it will make a difference I don't care who you are, if you had that kind of money you won't be in a G8 anyway. Thats about a $100 to fill a tank. That can add a $100 a week in a V8 commuter car.

GM needs a fun to drive high revving 4cyl that is well balanced and well built. The last thing they need is the Camaro. It may bring publicity but will be short lived. How many here who say it is killer will actually buy one? I love it but I will stick with the Hot Rods.


Mini Copper 37miles to the gallon, killer looks, tons of fun and approx $20k and German engineering. I guess the Cavalier will draw some sales. Maybe an SS badge.

[Steve1968LS2]

I have $100 that says the Camaro will be made.. any takers?

[6'9"Witha69]

Just like the 70's all over again. GM is producing v8's and the Imports are honing the high mile fun to drive compacts. When gas hits $5.00 it will make a difference I don't care who you are, if you had that kind of money you won't be in a G8 anyway. Thats about a $100 to fill a tank. That can add a $100 a week in a V8 commuter car.

GM needs a fun to drive high revving 4cyl that is well balanced and well built. The last thing they need is the Camaro. It may bring publicity but will be short lived. How many here who say it is killer will actually buy one? I love it but I will stick with the Hot Rods.


Mini Copper 37miles to the gallon, killer looks, tons of fun and approx $20k and German engineering. I guess the Cavalier will draw some sales. Maybe an SS badge.Dude, look at the Aveo, HHR and Cobalt for small, well built and fuel efficient Chevy cars. Add in the Malibu with the Ecotec and there is a midsize car with good mileage.

Both the HHR and Cobalt have the LNF engine in the SS (LNF=2.0 Direct injected and dual scroll turbocharged Ecotec with 260 HP). My HHR SS averages 26+ MPG as a daily grind commuter car in Pasadena/L.A. traffic. Tell me again that GM is off the mark. Hell, Nissan, Honda and Toyota/Lexus all have their gas guzzlers and sports cars. Why not point that out instead of an anti GM apples to oranges comparo.

[trapin]

....Why not point that out instead of an anti GM apples to oranges comparo?
Yes why. Please dear God why?

We can never talk about American cars without someone bringing a bucket of mud to the party.

[BonzoHansen]

Why Indy: http://www.camaroz28.com/forums/showthread.php?t=561301

[BonzoHansen]

OMG the sky if falling!

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Seriously, I doubt they'd pull the plug this late in the game.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/06/CL_POLL-1.png

[barraza]

Just like the 70's all over again. GM is producing v8's and the Imports are honing the high mile fun to drive compacts....blah blah

GM needs a fun to drive high revving 4cyl that is well balanced and well built. The last thing they need is the Camaro. It may bring publicity but will be short lived. How many here who say it is killer will actually buy one? I love it but I will stick with the Hot Rods.


Mini Copper 37miles to the gallon, killer looks, tons of fun and approx $20k and German engineering. I guess the Cavalier will draw some sales. Maybe an SS badge.
This comment is total crap

Do you understand how long it takes to build a car from conception to showroom? Obviously not. But you sure can jump on the bash the US carmakers bandwagon.

I take it you couldn't drive in the 70's, because there were no "high mile fun to drive compacts" back then. Ever actually been in a honda or toyota from the 70's, they were junk. As were a lot from the 80's

If you are looking for something small, how about a 260 hp, turbo, Cobalt SS for less than 23k, which is a helluva lot more car than a base mini cooper. German engineering my ass.

Gas mileage is about weight / hp / aerodynamics / and your right foot, country of origin be damned.

[Jim Nilsen]

Show me a mini cooper that gets 37mpg and it sure won't be stock or cheaper than the new Camaro.
I can also remember reading about a 4cyl Camaro and it wasn't taken seriously as viable but it just might be now and there is nothing wrong with that to me.
I remember growing up and never knowing if the guy had a 6 cyl or a hot v8 unless you were listening.The power of the 4cyl is more than the power of the first 289 Mustang base car or the 6cyl Camaro base car, so I can see the turbo 4 being a good commuter car and still have style just like the Mustang did back in 64 and the Camaro in 67.

The pics of the assembly line were cool and it tells the rest of the story except what we still might get in our future for powertrains.
I keep thinking that somewhere there is a hybrid Camaro in the future if GM is thinking right.

1 car built 20 different ways is more logical than 20 cars built only 1 way !!!! I know it might get boring but so did my bicycle.

[Steve1968LS2]

Just like the 70's all over again. GM is producing v8's and the Imports are honing the high mile fun to drive compacts. When gas hits $5.00 it will make a difference I don't care who you are, if you had that kind of money you won't be in a G8 anyway. Thats about a $100 to fill a tank. That can add a $100 a week in a V8 commuter car.

GM needs a fun to drive high revving 4cyl that is well balanced and well built. The last thing they need is the Camaro. It may bring publicity but will be short lived. How many here who say it is killer will actually buy one? I love it but I will stick with the Hot Rods.

Mini Copper 37miles to the gallon, killer looks, tons of fun and approx $20k and German engineering. I guess the Cavalier will draw some sales. Maybe an SS badge.

The new Cobalt SS would kick the crap out of any Japanese or German car in it's class... and get better MPH.

Mini Copper? lol.. unless it's the S model it as slow as spit. Add a few options to the mini and it's certainly more than $20k.

People buy Hummers that get 12mpg so saying that they won't buy a Camaro that gets 27mpg is silly, I don't care if gas is $5 a gallon.

But that's just my opinion...

Also, it's almost funny how people think the foreign cars can do no wrong.

[bigvegan]

It's a tough call.

On the one hand, they've spent a HUGE amount of time and effort getting the new Camaro to market, so logically, this car should be on sale and in showrooms on schedule as promised.

On the other hand, GM management CANNOT seem to resist any opportunity to shoot itself in the foot, and this would be an unbelievable opportunity to do so on a big scale (right up there with not embracing hybrids at the outset, ignoring the small car market as gas prices went up and up and up, and not committing to getting the Volt into showrooms ASAP), so GM could give into its self-defeating habits and cancel the Camaro.

I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, it would be great to see GM revive the musclecar. On the other hand, America doesn't need any more new 2 ton 15mpg city vehicles.

[TonyL]

is it time for another one of these yet?
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/06/ohnoes-1.gif

Please. They WILL build this car and it will sell. Has no one seen the cover of this month's motortrend?

[zbugger]

is it time for another one of these yet?
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/06/ohnoes-1.gif

Please. They WILL build this car and it will sell. Has no one seen the cover of this month's motortrend?

lol.... That thing is funny. And I haven't gone to the store lately, so no, I haven't seen this months cover of motortrend. Oh, and I also respond to the names "No One", "Nobody", "Hey You", and "Jackass".

[Bad Bird]

Also, it's almost funny how people think the foreign cars can do no wrong.

Ain't that the truth. My Uncle always has Audis. They are the biggest, most unreliable piles of junk I've ever seen. Repair costs are insane.

[Kenova]

Camaro5: Pre-production Pics (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4198)

Damn! Somebody is looking to get the axe! If GM ever finds out who took those pictures ( and you can bet they are looking ) he or she will be drawn and quartered.
I work in Oshawa truck, and the car plants share the same property. Although I haven't seen one myself, some of my co-workers have seen a couple of Camaros tooling around the "yard". I suspect that these are pre-production pilots that are assembled to verify the fit and function of parts. The next step is pilot production on the actual assembly line. If my memory serves me correctly, the plant was supposed to start up in Sept.
On the subject of hybrids, we were supposed to start building hybrid trucks (full size extended cab and crew cab) late this year (November I think). When GM told us they were pulling the plug on the Oshawa truck plant, they said the hybrids will be built "in a lower cost region". Yes, we're loosing jobs to Mexico too.

Ken

[shmoov69]

Ok, on the PT today at Springfield, I saw Jon Moss walking thru the place looking for the the GM booth (he just got there). I told him I would drive him over to it if he wanted me to (since he was dragging his bags). He said no, but thanks and see you later. I asked him if the Camaro was going to be made or killed? He said thanks and see you later and kind of grinned. Dunno what that means, but made me wonder!

[Aceshigh]

Look how well the V8 powered Pontiac G8 GT is selling, you can't really find them on the lots at the moment.

http://www.businessweek.com/lifestyle/content/may2008/bw2008059_425044.htm?autos+product+review

GM sold a total of 2,126 G8's in April, the new sedan's first full month on the market,
so it's too early to know for sure, but my guess is the G8 will fare better than the GTO.

I think the G8 is one HELL of a good looking car for $30,000.
The problem I see for GM is the ever increasing gas prices are going to doom their numbers
and it's a very realistic concern for the Camaro as well.......maybe a turbo 4cylinder will come out....who knows.



People buy Hummers that get 12mpg so saying that they won't buy a Camaro that gets 27mpg is silly, I don't care if gas is $5 a gallon.

"Sell" yeah, but what # of buyers is important, not just a few.

Considering that over 53% of Hummer sales were the H3, which is better then 12mpg
I'd dare say not MANY people (like what GM hopes for the Camaro sales) will be
buying H2's this year.

That's why GM is considering dumping the Hummer brand also.

[dogtag]

The Future is already here, I live out on the Washington Coast and we're paying 5.13 for Diesel and 4.39 for Regular.
We'll end the year at 5.00 a gallon or sooner and I don't even want to think about Diesel.
Our Governor has seen that we also have a 9 cents a gallon extra tax to help us with our fuel costs.
If they make a turbo 4 banger Camaro I'd at least take a look.
DT

[BonzoHansen]

I still don't get the Indy comment myself. The truck announcement earlier this week notwithstanding, Camaro production is coming out of the Oshawa, Ontario plant. It looks like the robots are busy sorting things out there now on prototypes...

Camaro5: Pre-production Pics (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4198)
Those pics make me laugh - is Bumblebee building the new Camaro?

[bwhinnen]

All I can say is I hope we get it here in Australia, for my wife's sake. She just wants one! I'd rather something a little more aged :)

[Paul_J]

Well from my perspective gas prices are affecting my buying decision. My wife an I have 10 and 11 year old cars as our dailies. One needs to be replaced. I was going to hold out and see what the new Pontiac "El Camino" thing would be like but unless it come with a fuel efficient option I won't consider it. For me the Camaro was never an option due to the price tag and now with fuel costs added to that it will never happen. I'm liking the new Malibu or even the cobalt. I only buy used so it will be a little while before I get the Malibu.

[hectore3]

If need be GM can slide the Ecotec turbo 4 banger in the engine bay. It can easily make more than 300HP and get better economy than either 6 or 8 cylinder of choice.

I know 4 cylinder engines don't get our hearts racing. But after one ride in a EVO 8 I'm a believer that things will be all right.

[Jim Nilsen]

Well from my perspective gas prices are affecting my buying decision. My wife an I have 10 and 11 year old cars as our dailies. One needs to be replaced. I was going to hold out and see what the new Pontiac "El Camino" thing would be like but unless it come with a fuel efficient option I won't consider it. For me the Camaro was never an option due to the price tag and now with fuel costs added to that it will never happen. I'm liking the new Malibu or even the cobalt. I only buy used so it will be a little while before I get the Malibu.


I told myself once that I wouldn't buy new and then I took the plunge. For the first year I asked myself why I did it. The answer was the financing. If you get the right financing you can get a new car at a better deal and know where every mile came from. The kind of car you are thinking about buying will hold it's value since it isn't going to be that expensive to start with. If you don't drive a lot of miles , new is definately a better idea because it will hold value even more. Used car financing will still put you in at least a 5 yr loan and a new car can go 7 yr or more on a couple of models. This keeps your payment about the same yet you are driving around in a new car instead of a used one. This is all variant on your financing so you have to shop for the loan as much as the car and different dealers can do different things with the same car. I transfered my payment to a credit card with 2.9 for the life of the balance and never use the card. The minimum payment keeps going down every month, thus you can keep paying the normal car payment and really pay it off fast or you can keep paying lesser payments as the car depreciates if you want. I am way ahead of the payoff compared to the loan I got from the bank in the same amount of time and it cost a lot less. So do the math and go take the plunge on something that gets 30 mpg or better minimum and you will be able to do it now.

Don't wait because the $$$$$ you start to save on gas will amaze you !!!!

[Paul_J]

I forgot to mention I don't finance and pay cash. It's not an easy game to play because you have to make payments to yourself so you can replace that car in the future. You do make a good point and I have seen some deals that are pretty good too. Both of my cars, '97 Volvo and a '98 Lexus GS 300 have well over 180,000 on the clocks. The Volvo is the last one I'll ever buy, absolute junk, but the Lexus has another 100,000 in it. This time I'm going back to GM.

[hectore3]

Funny you say that about the Volvo. I really want just a station wagon. No hopped up SUV's or the like. Has the reliability been that bad?

[Paul_J]

Yes, mine is a T5 2WD wagon. PM if you want the run down. I don't want to jack this thread all up. My point was that Fuel mileage will be the deciding factor for my daily driver.

[TonyL]

Seriously. Has anyone else seen the cover of MotorTrend this month? It has the new camaro on the cover. I'm not asking to be sarcastic. The car looks AWESOME on the cover. It's dark silver with SS stripes on it, The correct headlights are on it. Someone has to have seen it. It looks amazing that way. I cannot find it on the net. But you guys have to see it. It's the shots of the car we've all be hoping to see forever.

[redfire69]

Seriously. Has anyone else seen the cover of MotorTrend this month? It has the new camaro on the cover. I'm not asking to be sarcastic. The car looks AWESOME on the cover. It's dark silver with SS stripes on it, The correct headlights are on it. Someone has to have seen it. It looks amazing that way. I cannot find it on the net. But you guys have to see it. It's the shots of the car we've all be hoping to see forever.

I just saw that yesterday. I thought the same thing that it looked much better too...

Edit: I can't find any pics online either.

[bwhinnen]

If need be GM can slide the Ecotec turbo 4 banger in the engine bay. It can easily make more than 300HP and get better economy than either 6 or 8 cylinder of choice.

I know 4 cylinder engines don't get our hearts racing. But after one ride in a EVO 8 I'm a believer that things will be all right.

But don't be fooled into thinking you'll get mileage that much better out of said 4 banger... I own both a LS2 equipped car (HSV R8) and a flat four turbo'd car (Subaru WRX). While the 4cylinder gets better mileage on the freeway it soon comes back to the same as the LS2 when driving in city driving or around the suburbs.

The 4cyl has been modified quite a bit (380HP 375ftlb), but I've tuned it to be fuel efficient as it can be without compromising the reliability / longetivity of it. It started life with about 215HP and now gets significantly better economy than it did when stock.

But you have to love that freeway economy :)

A buddys 6.0L L98 (Aussie equiv of the G8) car gets better economy for the same driving style than his EVO 8 used too... (dodge on this forum).