How many hours to install deep tubs

[Turbo67camaro]

For a 1st gen Camaro, approx. how many hows does it take for an experienced body / custom shop to install the DSE deep tubs (when they've done it before) in a car that is already off the frame, media blasted, already completed stripped, and not in need of any metal repair in that area ?

[chicane67]

If it were more than about 16 hours... Id be pissed.

[skeeters65]

Definatly more than 16..
I think they are more like 40.. Ask DSE

[hotrdblder]

more then 16, but ubder 30 unless installing upper shock crossmember, then its 40-50

[chicane67]

40 as a drive in... that needed to be stripped, preped and components removed to have access... but not 40 in his chassis current state.

Ask those who have done this... hell, even a good shop that had to fabricate the tubs could do it in that amount of time. And... that is REAL time... not just accounting for, "Hey I worked all week on this chassis so I gotta charge 40 hours for that... and answering the phone, eating lunch, pushing a broom and picking my nose."

I mean... eight hours a side without playing with yourself, sending text messages and f-ing off on the internet fourms ??? Come-on. Sure I could charge a weeks worth of work for that... but why would I want to screw a client for personal goof off time ??

Like I said... if you have done it... you'll know exactly what I am refering to.

[hotrdblder]

thanks, your shop must be super busy.

[chicane67]

Awe... too bad I missed it before the edit.

[Turbo67camaro]

My shop is up to 33 hours and the tubs are only tack welded in.

In order to get clean welds, they did have to remove a little undercoating that was left over from media blasting, but there wasn't much.

I'm not using upper shock mounts, or upper cross member, because I'm using a G-Bar system. The frame rails were narrowed with thick plate, but I assume that is normal procedure.

This shop does good work, but they seem sloooow. Example: 2.3 hours to mark and cut out 1 tub side with a plasma cutter. I've never used one, but I thought those cut sheet metal like butter ?

I think I'm going to have to force them to give me a hard estimate for each task in the project, because every step so far has seemed really slow. When I had someone do metal work for me in the past, he was much faster.

[chicane67]

My shop is up to 33 hours and the tubs are only tack welded in.

In order to get clean welds, they did have to remove a little undercoating that was left over from media blasting, but there wasn't much.

I'm not using upper shock mounts, or upper cross member, because I'm using a G-Bar system. The frame rails were narrowed with thick plate, but I assume that is normal procedure.

This shop does good work, but they seem sloooow. Example: 2.3 hours to mark and cut out 1 tub side with a plasma cutter. I've never used one, but I thought those cut sheet metal like butter ?

I think I'm going to have to force them to give me a hard estimate for each task in the project, because every step so far has seemed really slow. When I had someone do metal work for me in the past, he was much faster.

Now I think you are more understanding of my meaning in timely work and what you are being charged for. I guess some shops just know how manage time better than others...

[skeeters65]

I also think if it is their first one it can be a little bit of a daunting task and and want to make sure they dont F it up..

The guy that did my car took quite a while to do the first side, but he realy banged out the second side. When another guy saw my set up he asked about having it done and and my guy said it was a PITA but now that he has done one it would easy..

[hotrdblder]

the job cannot be done in 16 hrs, it could probably be roughed in, in that amount of time, but not completely dressed, smoothed,prepared for coating, unless you want your car never to be done, or the quality to suck
don't listen to us, call dse, its there part or better yet do a search on the this site and see what you find out.

[Turbo67camaro]

Searching around it seems like most shops take 30 to 40 hours to install them.

I'm not saying Chicane67 can't do it in 16 in my car's stripped/prepped state, because there's a LOT to be said for skill, talent, and experience.

When building a software system, what takes me 1 week, will take my typical peer a month, often times much more to do.

[chicane67]

Its like going to the dealer for any service. Let's say you need a new VSS on your automatic transmission... you get charged $225 for the R&R... but the tech only did about 3 minutes of actual labor. Is it right that you pay for no accountable service rendered ?? I think we all have the same answer for that...

There is a HUGE difference between 'book' time... and 'time and materials.' So... it then also depends on how you charge your time.

For example... lets say that I have to do a differential. No... lets say front and rear, gears and bearings, ARB Lockers... pumps, switches and all. That job books some 22 hours at $75/hour (avg shop rate). That is $1650 in labor alone... but I do them all the time in 6 hours (@75/hr=$450). Can I consciously charge them $1650 ?? No. Split the difference... yeah, and I tell them that up front. "Your truck is done, we had happy parts, and I'm not going to charge you full boat... because it didn't take me that long." One happy customer... coin in pocket... and integrity intact. Plus I'm not sitting on the vehicle for another 14 hours before I can call the customer to come pick it up... because you cant really call him up in 8 hours and charge him for 22hrs now can you ?? Its an integrity thing. Some have it... some don't.

In reality... for most shops... 16 hours of charged labor is 2 days. But, to get 16 hours of actual labor takes closer to 3 to 3.5 days (but you get charged for 3 to 3.5 days @ 8 hrs per day = 24+hrs, when only 16hrs was performed). I don't know too many people that can and will actually work for 8 hours straight in a single day. Like I said... some people know how to manage their time better than others.

As for the tubs, some say 30 to 40 hours... which means 3.75 to 5... eight hour days. So, I guess if you are solo and doing the job yourself for the first time... yeah, in reality that is 40 to 60 hours easy... with you paying the premium.

Why call DSE... what does DSE know that any competent fabricator doesn't know ?? I guess they could tell you what they cahrge... but nothing else comes to mind. Do they have some magic tools that no one else has ?? No. Is their product SO proprietary that it confounds all else into Lemming-hood ?? No. Its a flipping mini tub kit... with very good pre fabricated components. Personally, I think Kyle should charge more for them... as he made it stupid f-in simple because the parts are THAT good... which makes the job easier and quicker to preform.

Then agian... what do I know. :jump:

[MrQuick]

hey Tom I got a back load, you think you can take care of 3 for me? where do you want em?


even if it wasn't stripped....whats it take to remove a back seat, side panels, remove the wheels, drop out the rear end and open a trunk. 1.5 hrs? Lets be reasonable.

But I kinda understand what you are saying. Just because a shop is going to charge you 40 hours to do something, your not going to come back to the shop at 39.5 hrs from drop off to find then putting the wheels back on. Its just a rate of charge. Some shops might take 3 weeks to do a 40 hour job. In a flat rate shop if you don't finish the job with in 75% of the time charged your not gonna eat for a few days...in other words, your not cost effective.

[chicane67]

...If there were only 30 hours in a day Vinnie... or NorCal was a little closer.

[zbugger]

...If there were only 30 hours in a day Vinnie...

Crackheads and meth heads don't count hours in a day.:box2:

[hotrdblder]

good luck turbo, as long as it stays under 50 i would be happy
last i checked mitchell does not have a book time on a 68 camaro dse mini tub job and if they did it would be 60-70 hrs.

[MrQuick]

dooooohhhh easy on the johnson!!!! :hand:

[MrQuick]

Crackheads and meth heads don't count hours in a day.:box2: daoaavvvvvwho the hell you callin a meth head?!?! LOL :machine:

[MrQuick]

...If there were only 30 hours in a day Vinnie... or NorCal was a little closer. not too far....my old partner could drive 2 of them on the trailer in about 4 hours.

[chicane67]

yeah i am glad he doesn't have his own shop no one else would have any work hes so quick.
last i checked mitchell does not have a book time on a 68 camaro dse mini tub job and if they did it would be 60-70 hrs.

Nice re-word.

Its pretty easy to figure out... when you have a life, a real day job... and can still campain three race cars full season. Besides... your not building 200+ mph cars for a living... are you ?? So what would you know about that or what it is that I do or not do with one of my cars ??

What is it again that you do that is so special ??

[hotrdblder]

Nice re-word.

Its pretty easy to figure out... when you have a life, a real day job... and can still campain three race cars full season. Besides... your not building 200+ mph cars for a living... are you ?? So what would you know about that or what it is that I do or not do with one of my cars ??

What is it again that you do that is so special ??
I know nothing about 200 mph cars and if this were a thread about 200 mph mini tubs I would not reply in it. However seeing I have done dse mini tubs and you have not apparently it is you who should of stayed out of this thread.How did we get to 200 mph cars from the original question? Oh ya cause you relized you were wrong and wanted to try to degrade me, thanks nice try but I am with the majority here, 30-50 hrs just do a simple search with the really handy search function .

[chicane67]

How did we get to 200 mph cars from the original question? Oh ya cause you realized you were wrong and wanted to try to degrade me, thanks nice try but I am with the majority here, 30-50 hrs just do a simple search with the really handy search function .

How is it you say ?? Its more about the question of experience, skill and possibly talent. Well... that and good time management along with integrity and good business ethics. Again... some have it... and some don't. Oh yeah... mini tubs go 200mph too... so your point is moot. Also, your apparent speculation and assumption has also gotten the better of you once again... as I had originally stated... in Turbo67camaro's current chassis condition... it would not take the 40-50 hours that you state. Well... maybe for you. But the majority of the real time consuming and hard work had already been accomplished. So I take it you'd charge for it already being done anyway... right ??

And for the record... your attempted statement of degradation toward me before you re-worded your reply:


...
yeah i am glad he doesn't have his own shop no one else would dhave any work hes so quick, still blows my mind his car hasn't driven in years.
...is the pot calling the kettle black.

Maybe if there were 30 hours in a day or that money grew on tree's or if I didn't have a backbone and just charged people what I felt like to cover up my time mis-management... my 67, that I assume you are referring to, would have been completed by now. But none the less... rule changes dictate that some things be done differently. Not to mention that I am not at the 'Barney bolt on level' of building a competitive chassis either. Most of what I do requires chassis certification. Skill set's beyond that of your experience I take it ??

The fact that the 67 isn't done... has no applicable meaning to this thread what-so-ever. Any-other pointless cheap shot's there genius ??

[monza]

:enguard:

[rickk]

it took me 2 days .
rick k

[hotrdblder]

Well, how many dse deep tubs have you done? Let's throw the 200 mph cars and the undone 67 camaro out of this equation.
So how many?
And talking race cars let's see these 3 race cars you own, race,I bet you don't ownn one. please enlighten us, last I checked this is pro touring not pro salt, and the member asked how long it should take, I don't care how stripped the car is you still need to
1.Sandblast/grind, heat and scrape old undercoating off wheel wells
2. Remove wheelhouse
3. Cut floor back,make closeouts for frame, notch frame
4. Fully weld, metal finish closeouts, prepare tub
5. Plug weld upper flange, plug weld front floor section to tube, shorten trunk supports, weld in , metal finish
6.Remake rear seat supports/gussets, weld and metal finish
7finish prep wheel houses
8.epoxy/etch prime,
9. Seam seal
10.Urethane prime
11. Prep for final coating
12. Final coat,texture etc
If you can do that in 16 hrs your my new hero
Sorry turbo, but you see what people say under the search function , that tells the story
Under 50 hrs be pleased

[hotrdblder]

it took me 2 days .
rick k
Rick your a home builder, how many hrs in those 2 days, was it seam sealed and primed? That's where the job should be finished to if not coating, right? Especially if you were paying for it to be done.

[opnwide]

My brother and I just fabbed a 2" minitub on my TA. My brother knows NOTHING about cars, really just a helper. It took us two 6 hr days, breaking for lunch. two people, 10 hrs total. We still need to grind the welds, but its pretty much done (another 4-6 hrs of grinding and smoothing which shouldn't be needed with the DSE kit). And I am really not that good. This transam was already media blasted. This just includes doing the tubs. I've got a DSE 3" drop kit coming in the mail this week.
I just wish I did the tubs BEFORE I replaced the trunk pan:(

[hotrdblder]

goodluck turbo, let us know how you make out.

[MrQuick]

Let me try to clear up all the BS for the original poster.

Turbo, realistically it takes 30-35 honest hours to do a mini tub with NO DSE upper shock mount.

Add at the least 10-15 for that alone. Its a very time consuming job. I have done a few. I've done many more with out the DSE tubs and that was way longer to do. Thankfully they have them now.

Even if your car is stripped down. That isn't the hard part. My partner and I could have a fully dressed Camaro down ready for blasting in about 4-5 hours. Thats with lunch. Honestly a mini tub strip down is 1-2 hours. Even stripping the the sealer and under coating isn't an issue cause most of the parts get cut out with the old inner tub. I also take to time to add 6 points of body/frame bracing.

The hard part is the cut out, trim and then reinforce the frame. Its
time consuming even WITH a plasma cutter. You'd only use that to cut out the main tub, cut 1/8" frame inserts and not to do the frame work. There is alot of die grinder work.

Some of the other guys adding their .02 cents are talking about 2nd gens. 2nd gens are alot easier to do. Minimal notching required. Its a lot less work. My understanding is Turbo is asking about a 1st gen camaro.

Now, if some guy came up and wanted a mini tub job done in 16 hours I maybe able to pull it off but when it come to quality I don't like short cutting. On top of that it would cost big money for me to actually work hard. Well i'd probably put 5 guys on it. Fortunately for me this type of work is the hobby part of my life and not my livelihood.

Listen guys, I know its cool to brag how long it takes you to do a job and all but when it comes to the guys that are running these shops doing this type of work for a living and the guys pulling these jobs in back yards it isn't good. Its not good for business. Its not good for the first timer in his garage thinking its an easy job then having to farm it out after he realizes he under estimated the job. Trust me I have finished a few of those and its not pretty when they cut in the wrong places.

Tom, from what I can see there is no criminal acts going on. I believe you know how the flat rate system works. A worker does a job set of a pre determined time, no more no less. If he beats the time he makes money. The customer does not get a discount in price. If a worker takes more time, he looses money. The customer is not required to pay more than the estimated cost.

The DSE mini tub job was determined to take 40-50 hours. Theis has been a standard for many years now. I understand that some shops are charging less but if they feel the need to do so to bring in business then more power to them. Im not going to cut corners. My Nova took me an honest 45 hours to do. It was loads of fun.

Turbo, I hope the guys you have are doing a good job and I hope they are standing by the original estimate.

[Turbo67camaro]

Hey guys,

I do appreciate your input.

Personally, I think you're both right, except for the non-germain banter. Although, the sparring did provide some entertainment value !

When I had some metal work done when I lived in San Diego, I found a guy named Harold with about 25 years of experience, who did vehicle sheet metal full time for the city, and he made extra money on rides like mine in his spare time. He was fast and did outstanding work, and I got spoiled. Having watched his work first hand, I bet he could do the job in half the time of the average person.

Here, there's a kid who is in his early twenties doing the metal work. And for me to think he's gonna keep up with Harold, is absurd. At least he has good attention to detail.

The good thing is there is very little metal work left.

There's been a couple things on this project though, that justify switching them to fixed bid estimate per task (doing things I didn't ask for or want or discuss with them, buying a $500 part well in advance of needing it, without discussing whether or not said part was the brand / model I wanted). Those are the things that have me irritated, and why I'm now scrutinizing their performance closer.

They should work out, I just need to micro-manage them. Personally, I hate doing that though.

At least I avoided a different shop in this area that allegedly charged someone 18 hours to bleed their brakes.

[chicane67]

Well, how many dse deep tubs have you done? Let's throw the 200 mph cars and the undone 67 camaro out of this equation.
So how many?
And talking race cars let's see these 3 race cars you own, race,I bet you don't ownn one. please enlighten us, last I checked this is pro touring not pro salt, and the member asked how long it should take, I don't care how stripped the car is you still need to
1.Sandblast/grind, heat and scrape old undercoating off wheel wells
2. Remove wheelhouse
3. Cut floor back,make closeouts for frame, notch frame
4. Fully weld, metal finish closeouts, prepare tub
5. Plug weld upper flange, plug weld front floor section to tube, shorten trunk supports, weld in , metal finish
6.Remake rear seat supports/gussets, weld and metal finish
7finish prep wheel houses
8.epoxy/etch prime,
9. Seam seal
10.Urethane prime
11. Prep for final coating
12. Final coat,texture etc
If you can do that in 16 hrs your my new hero
Sorry turbo, but you see what people say under the search function , that tells the story
Under 50 hrs be pleased

Wow. After your childish, tactless and unprofessional PM... you dont rate the time of day around here.

Turbo, you asked a specific question, with specific details... and I gave you my opinion on just that. Nothing else added and within the confines of the peticular state of your chassis. You and I have had the San Diego discussion before... and we know a few the same people in that circle... Mark and Harold being a couple of them. I started out doing sheet metal in class 7 and 10 unlimited some 18+ year ago... and learned alot from the three sheet metal cats of San Diego- Harold, Eck and D. Araki... and still do. You are right... they could easily work circles around most. So, I guess we'll chalk this (and them) up to the exceptions of the rule.

Naw Vinnie... my point was not that anyone is doing anything illegal. I am more than aware of labor and billing disclaimer. My point was, that the answer is also dependant on how they do their billing. Some account for things better than others. Hence my comment in post 13:


There is a HUGE difference between 'book' time... and 'time and materials.' So... it then also depends on how you charge your time.

[hotrdblder]

re-read the thread and see who started the pissing match, no one asked for business ethics here but you wanted to bring them in, I also said around 30 in my first post,40-50 if doing the upper shock crossmember. You had to come in and say the majority of shops are picking there nose, ripping off customers charging that time. But in reality i guess every shop out there including dse is ripping off the customers. Its a real 30-40 hrs not a real 16 that gets charged (book time of 30-40) if i were quoting in book time format it would be 60-70 with crossmember or 40-50 for mini tubs. I know if i were a customer and I was told 40-50 and got charged 43 I would be happy, however if i were quoted 30 and it was 40-50 i would be concerned I got taken advantage of.
that said i agree with vin, 30-40 hrs with just tubs real time non quoted. Quoted would higher to make sure it can be completed properly without losing time, no good shop eats 10-15 hrs on 40.
turbo, goodluck, your chosen shop is in the ball park.

[hotrdblder]

Wow. After your childish, tactless and unprofessional PM... you dont rate the time of day around here.

Turbo, you asked a specific question, with specific details... and I gave you my opinion on just that. Nothing else added and within the confines of the peticular state of your chassis. You and I have had the San Diego discussion before... and we know a few the same people in that circle... Mark and Harold being a couple of them. I started out doing sheet metal in class 7 and 10 unlimited some 18+ year ago... and learned alot from the three sheet metal cats of San Diego- Harold, Eck and D. Araki... and still do. You are right... they could easily work circles around most. So, I guess we'll chalk this (and them) up to the exceptions of the rule.

Naw Vinnie... my point was not that anyone is doing anything illegal. I am more than aware of labor and billing disclaimer. My point was, that the answer is also dependant on how they do their billing. Some account for things better than others. Hence my comment in post 13:
so how many dse mini tub jobs have you done?
i have done 4.
vince has done a bunch, and we are in agreement of time, so maybe you found a different way to do them? Or your bs'ing your way thru this trying to change the subject to book time vs real time, because you have never personally(all by yourself) installed a complete dse mini tub kit.
so how many dse mini tub jobs have you completed?

[Turbo67camaro]

Originally Posted by chicane67
You and I have had the San Diego discussion before... and we know a few the same people in that circle... Mark and Harold being a couple of them.

My memory is coming back. Now I recall it was Harold who recommended I use Pro Gear.

Small world / small community. A good reason / reminder to keep things civil, especially for you guys in the motorsports and customization business. You never know when changa stompin' will come back to bite.

The fact that you're both out here helping us hobbyists like me, says a lot about both of you.

At this point, I'm regretting asking the question, because I don't want to trigger upset in such a small, tightknit community.

No one can ever accuse you guys of lacking passion for what you do.

[hotrdblder]

turbo, no need to regret anything, i for one am a big boy and can take just as i give out. Its just I am enthusiastic about what i do, and I have a decent amount of experience installing dse mini tubs and i do not over charge my customers, so there were two things that bothered me.
i am all good, but now you have a good idea at what amount of time you shoul dget charged, if its within the window mrquick and I talked about, then your good to go.
jake

[Travis B]

Turbo, on the 69 camaro we did for sema, the car was on a rotisseri already to do the 3 link install, after doing the 3 link we installed dse mini tubs. The car was already blasted and primed, and for us to do a nice clean job, bodyworked and primed it took 35 plus hrs. I don't know how it could be done any quicker.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Well, I do a lot of time studies around the shop on different procedures. This is why we give so many hard numbers for so many procedures we do. I hate "estimates" and li9ke to close as many line items on a ticket as possible on the front end. like Mini tubs.

In the last few months we have done 2 different time studies with my one man Mini Tub Machine Michael doing mini tubs. Not trying to one up or anything, but we do a lot of mini tubs and at this point Michael has done about a dozen so I think he is a great barometer to measure by on mini tubs.

A few months back on a bet I offered a bonus if he could beat the 40 hours we charge the customer. Now this forty hours did include priming, seam sealing and re splatter in the trunk. There was no crossmember on this job. 43 hours later he did not receive a bonus. We charged for 40 hours



Study 2. Michael went Maryland to do a set of tubs in another shop, one of our members here. This car did not have a crossmember either, but he did install the G Bar crossmember which is about one hours work in a bare shell. Michael prebent the frame closeouts in Florida and carried them in his luggage. He took his grinders, cutters, gloves, tools,he always uses. The customer had the bare shell totally gutted, striped and jigged with a new welder and plasma cutter beside the car. 2 straight 12 hour days and the tubs were done but no sealer, no prep, no primer, completely raw. Now this is with Michael doing the technical stuff and the customer doing all the grunt and grinding. Both stayed busy almost the entire time. So just more then 48 hours later the tubs were done.

Here is a link to the thread on that project.

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=14218



Now if you factor in say.........20% inefficiency for Michael being displaced. Add another 10%??? inefficiency for customer participation, and deduct 10%???? more for over lap (getting in each others way). Combine all this total 40% deductions and you end up with 29 hours. So we can round it to 30 hours, and figure at least another day to "finish" the job.

[MrQuick]

In the last few months we have done 2 different time studies with my one man Mini Tub Machine Michael doing mini tubs. Not trying to one up or anything, but we do a lot of mini tubs and at this point Michael has done about a dozen so I think he is a great barometer to measure by on mini tubs.

Study 2. Michael went Maryland to do a set of tubs in another shop, one of our members here. This car did not have a crossmember either, but he did install the G Bar crossmember which is about one hours work in a bare shell. Michael prebent the frame closeouts in Florida and carried them in his luggage. He took his grinders, cutters, gloves, tools,he always uses. The customer had the bare shell totally gutted, striped and jigged with a new welder and plasma cutter beside the car. 2 straight 12 hour days and the tubs were done but no sealer, no prep, no primer, completely raw. Now this is with Michael doing the technical stuff and the customer doing all the grunt and grinding. Both stayed busy almost the entire time. So just more then 48 hours later the tubs were done.
Now if you factor in say.........20% inefficiency for Michael being displaced. Add another 10%??? inefficiency for customer participation, and deduct 10%???? more for over lap (getting in each others way). Combine all this total 40% deductions and you end up with 29 hours. So we can round it to 30 hours, and figure at least another day to "finish" the job. Well.....he IS a bit younger and more flexible then some of us....LOL :poke:

Im starting to keep pre cut fillers on the shelves too. I also have a bunch of 16g templates for fast cut outs. Great time saving ideas.

[chicane67]

re-read the thread and see who started the pissing match, no one asked for business ethics here but you wanted to bring them in, I also said around 30 in my first post,40-50 if doing the upper shock crossmember. You had to come in and say the majority of shops are picking there nose, ripping off customers charging that time. But in reality i guess every shop out there including dse is ripping off the customers. Its a real 30-40 hrs not a real 16 that gets charged (book time of 30-40) if i were quoting in book time format it would be 60-70 with crossmember or 40-50 for mini tubs. I know if i were a customer and I was told 40-50 and got charged 43 I would be happy, however if i were quoted 30 and it was 40-50 i would be concerned I got taken advantage of.
that said i agree with vin, 30-40 hrs with just tubs real time non quoted. Quoted would higher to make sure it can be completed properly without losing time, no good shop eats 10-15 hrs on 40.
turbo, goodluck, your chosen shop is in the ball park.

Actually... it was you.

Nothing that I posted was directed toward and/or about you specifically. So, for you to even speculate such... lends to a guilty conscious maybe ?? Thinner skin than the big boy really has ?? I don't know... nor is it relevant. You then replied, and shortly there after, re-worded your cheap shot... that was directed specifically toward myself. But then again and judging by your PM's to me... I'm not the one with my panties in a wad. Nor does any of this merit three separate PM’s to me on your behalf. Really Jake… do you have a life ?? I mean, you have actually sat and observed the “last activity” status in my profile… waiting… for… who knows.

That is seriously... and laughably... pathetic.

You should have said something to me before today... because, I really did not know the wife and kid wanted to stay at the park that long.


so how many dse mini tub jobs have you done?
i have done 4.
vince has done a bunch, and we are in agreement of time, so maybe you found a different way to do them? Or your bs'ing your way thru this trying to change the subject to book time vs real time, because you have never personally(all by yourself) installed a complete dse mini tub kit.
so how many dse mini tub jobs have you completed?

Since it is relevant... in the last five years, I have completed four.

And what may have helped me in understanding the process even before Kyle's brilliant addition for specific tub kits... I had used reproduction wheel wheels and fabricated the filler panel... which is nearly the same thing, it just takes longer to complete... and in the past 18+ years I have done about 20 of those on first Gen F-body's specifically. First one was... circa 88-89.

As far as the estimated TOC on this particular operation, my opinion and estimation only took into account for what the topic was asked. Nothing else was thrown into my opinion and/or estimation.


Turbo, you asked a specific question, with specific details... and I gave you my opinion on just that. Nothing else added and within the confines of the particular state of your chassis.

You on the other hand, for reasons unknown to anyone but yourself... did not want to account for work that has already been completed... unnecessarily adding to the time estimate. But sure... if it were a drive in, and needed all the work required to do it from scratch... 30-40 hrs is just about right on (possibly excluding the shock cross member and the overall condition of the chassis.) And yeah... I know about quoting the outside to cover for Murphy... that is a given in any process. There is and was, no changing of the subject in my explanation.

Whatever. Jake, your right... you nor I know everything and I don't believe that either of us ever stated that we did. But, assumptions are assumptions... and for some, it might just be better to ask questions before their assumptions ultimately lead them to the cliché itself.

[Damn True]

Ok, enough flailing richards.


Vince, I'ma need some'a those fillers.

[hotrdblder]

Ok, enough flailing richards.


Vince, I'ma need some'a those fillers.
you don't have one too?
lol true.
goodluck turbo sorry I derailed your thread. please show us the job once done.

[XLexusTech]

Vince or Frank any chance you will sell a filler plate to a home builder?

[ProdigyCustoms]

Ya know I have been surprised DSE has no dome it already.

[XLexusTech]

I think they used to as part of the Minitub kit however I havent seen any on thier site.
I am two rockers and a full floor pan away form needing the Mini Tub so Maybe BY then you can trow a set into the box with my Tubs :-)

[Damn True]

They sell them with the 2'nd Gen kit. When I called them to ask if they'd do the same for the 1st Gen, they said there was too much variation in 1st Gens.

IMO, make em oversized. I'll tack it in and then grind it flush before finishing the weld.

[MrQuick]

It would be difficult to come up with a true universal part. 69's no problem. But 67-68's are different. Let me know when your ready, its not too bad. About 16-18 hours....LOL sorry j/k. "flailing richards" haaahaaaa haaaaa but what a sword fight ahey?

[CSI:QUINCY]

install tubbs 25-30 hours.including the mount for the trunk hinges

install cross bar for shock mount. 10-15 hours.

finsh work. grind, sand, seam seal, epoxy prime and under coat outside of tubs, refinsh trunk area. 8-15 hours.

all depends how nice the truck pan is and if you are mounting the shocks and so on and so on.

i will be honest it took me 25 hours on hard work to install 1 side on a 1969 camaro convertable. but ther is more work involved also with the rear seat mount and removeing the pump and cylinders.

i have been in the business for over 20 years. and that is one
project than needs not to be rushed.

check out my garage to see pictures on installation.

[MrQuick]

Verts suck, I won't even do em.

I use to rebuild Rochesters for a Griffins carb performance & Diagnostics. jinkies


install tubbs 25-30 hours.including the mount for the trunk hinges

install cross bar for shock mount. 10-15 hours.

finsh work. grind, sand, seam seal, epoxy prime and under coat outside of tubs, refinsh trunk area. 8-15 hours.

all depends how nice the truck pan is and if you are mounting the shocks and so on and so on.

i will be honest it took me 25 hours on hard work to install 1 side on a 1969 camaro convertable. but ther is more work involved also with the rear seat mount and removeing the pump and cylinders.

i have been in the business for over 20 years. and that is one
project than needs not to be rushed.

check out my garage to see pictures on installation.

[MarkM66]

install tubbs 25-30 hours.including the mount for the trunk hinges

install cross bar for shock mount. 10-15 hours.

finsh work. grind, sand, seam seal, epoxy prime and under coat outside of tubs, refinsh trunk area. 8-15 hours.

all depends how nice the truck pan is and if you are mounting the shocks and so on and so on.

i will be honest it took me 25 hours on hard work to install 1 side on a 1969 camaro convertable. but ther is more work involved also with the rear seat mount and removeing the pump and cylinders.

i have been in the business for over 20 years. and that is one
project than needs not to be rushed.

check out my garage to see pictures on installation.

The link in your sig doesn't work.

[opnwide]

FYI, On my estimate for my gen2, my bro and I did about 12 hrs for just adding a 2" strip into stock tubs. We spent another 4hrs today cutting the brackets off the diff and primering the assembly with DP90. I still need to hang the shock crossmember (not the sheetmetal one that comes in the genI kit). Also,I still need to modify the front spring pocket, too, which should take about as long (or longer) than notching the frame on a genI.

So.. just 12 hrs for the minitub, but probably another 30 to make the suspension work. And I still need to handle the gas tank.

Uh...wait...What was the question again?

[CSI:QUINCY]

The link in your sig doesn't work.

thanks i will work on that.

[Part Time]

Looks like the dust has settled....

I've followed DSE since Kyle showed up in Chevy High performance with the build articles of the Twister and immediately started cutting apart my Nova to section the wheel houses to make my own deep tubs.After many calls to DSE to try to steer me straight ( I would call myself a true home builder with more desire than skills ) they told me to hold off because the Nova deeps tubs were coming out soon. So.... my car was cut apart based off from pictures from DSE's web site (no templates or instructions). I picked up my deep tubs in Columbus at GoodGuys and worked at them a little bit here and there. Having never done anything like this before I sat paralyzed by anaylisis for collectively what may have been days.... Fast forward to October of last year I finally got the deep tubs in and I think they look very good. Is it Pro quality, no. Am I stoked that I pulled it off, sure. Do I get hacked off that it took me so long, yep. But life happens. The cool part was actually doing it myself. Is the car finished, nope. Will it ever be?, not sure. So..... for the guys doing them in 60, 50, heck even 40 hours my hat is off to you. For the guys installing them for the first time that could just as easily give up because of the frustration.... don't give up! And don't be dicouraged by the guys that can do the install in their sleep and then argue about who is better.

[Part Time]

Looks like the dust has settled....

I've followed DSE since Kyle showed up in Chevy High performance with the build articles of the Twister and immediately started cutting apart my Nova to section the wheel houses to make my own deep tubs.After many calls to DSE to try to steer me straight ( I would call myself a true home builder with more desire than skills ) they told me to hold off because the Nova deeps tubs were coming out soon. So.... my car was cut apart based off from pictures from DSE's web site (no templates or instructions). I picked up my deep tubs in Columbus at GoodGuys and worked at them a little bit here and there. Having never done anything like this before I sat paralyzed by anaylisis for collectively what may have been days.... Fast forward to October of last year I finally got the deep tubs in and I think they look very good. Is it Pro quality, no. Am I stoked that I pulled it off, sure. Do I get hacked off that it took me so long, yep. But life happens. The cool part was actually doing it myself. Is the car finished, nope. Will it ever be?, not sure. So..... for the guys doing them in 60, 50, heck even 40 hours my hat is off to you. For the guys installing them for the first time that could just as easily give up because of the frustration.... don't give up! And don't be dicouraged by the guys that can do the install in their sleep and then argue about who is better.

[XLexusTech]

Hey Part time... I think you missed somthing major in the thread.
"And don't be dicouraged by the guys that can do the install in their sleep and then argue about who is better."

What they were actually discussing/and or srguing is how not to publically admit that the tubs can be done in X amount of time. If X is less then the charge @ their shop.
Thats what was really going on here.
Although I think Frank was doing a good jub of cutting through that with some real info based on his time study.

[hotrdblder]

the point was they cannot be done in 16 hrs, i have my own shop, the other guys doesn't, i agree with all others WHO have shops and HAVE done the mini tubs, and agree that it is a 30 hr job with no crossmember, 40-50 with crossmember. we wanted this thread to be clear of that so if anyone searches the subject knows it takes 30-50 hrs, not 16 so when they go to a shop to have it done and get charged 45 hrs, they have a cow and slander the shop, etc because" the read it on the internet that it should take 16 hrs"

[XLexusTech]

Jake I have read and trust most of your opinions.
My perception of the facts is based simply on my 15 + years working flat rate turning wrenches. Maybe some know this some don't. Any person working in any shop is expected to do most if not all of the things they work on in less hrs then the customer is paying.
The last 5 years I was doing this as a pro anyone on the line doing less then 200% was cut. Meaning anyone not billing 80 + hrs in a 40 hr week was sent packing.
With that said who cares how many hrs you think it takes if your work is of good quality (which I know yours is) then its a mute point. You get what you pay for.

The guy simply wanted to understand if he was getting ripped off or not.

[hotrdblder]

i agree.
however restoration jobs do not get billed flat rate as there are so many variables, but yes when i did alot of collision repair if you couldn't do 2-1 you were a wash boy

[ProdigyCustoms]

I agree complety on the flat rate statments. The sad reality is in Hot Rod building, it is exactly opposite. The shop doing the work can very rarely charge for only the actual hours worked, let alone 200% like flat rate. I was talking to Foose about this very subject, and even Foose cannot charge for every hour he works. Bret from Air Ride and I were talking and both agreed there is probably somehwere around 200 UN billable hours in a total 2000 hour build.

All my guys are on salary. And they get paid for their actual hours weather I can bill for those hours or not. If I put them on flat rate, I fear they would be forced start rushing projects to protect the dollars. If I tried to charge for the actual hours, customers would turn away.

So what are my options? Well, I can build really cool badd ass **** I can stand back and look at and say WOW!, and not make a ton of money. Or I can do late model collision work on Honda fenders and make some serious change. That sounds like fun!

Now back to your regularly scheduled pissing match!

[Part Time]

Hey Part time... I think you missed somthing major in the thread.
"And don't be dicouraged by the guys that can do the install in their sleep and then argue about who is better."

What they were actually discussing/and or srguing is how not to publically admit that the tubs can be done in X amount of time. If X is less then the charge @ their shop.
Thats what was really going on here.
Although I think Frank was doing a good jub of cutting through that with some real info based on his time study.

Fair enough. Thanks for setting me straight.