Does anyone know Mark Stielow?

[Steve25]

I have been reading about all the camaro projects that Mark Stielow has embarked upon. I was just wondering if anyone knows what his opinion is about the thrasher camaro he built and the mule camaro that he built. Does anyone know if he was disappointed with the front suspension on the mule. He has tested the stock subframe with just about as many modifications as can be done to it. He also had a chance to work with the new Wayne Due subframe. I was just wondering if anyone knows what he thinks performs the best. If anyone knows how I could ask him myself I would be very appreciative. Also, if anyone really knows his opinion, please let me know.

[zbugger]

HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!! Hey Charlie, wanna take this one?

[TonyL]

HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!! Hey Charlie, wanna take this one?

my thoughts exactly.

actually. Mark? do you wanna take this one?

[Steve25]

Does Mark Stielow post on this website? If he does, please offer any suggestions! I have been reading the back issues of every magazine that he was featured in just trying to see if I could get a hint of what he thought about the Mule front suspension compared to the thrasher. Please help me!
My wife adds that if Mark does have any suggestions to please post them because it would save me from reading all his features when I should be sleeping. I only get about an hour of sleep every night because I can't stop trying to figure out which suspension Mark thinks is best. I guess you could say that I idolize him because he has built every car that I have ever wanted to. My dreams are of building the camaro that can win the one lap of America race.

[zbugger]

He has, on occasion. My hope is that Charlie Lillard chimes in here. He's owned both cars, and he could tell you what Mark thinks. I could have driven both, but he would have had me arrested. So all I did was look and not touch like the good little boy I am.

[TonyL]

check out the source for my avatar.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

if you have read up on mark's work, just realize that thrasher was built to race with then current, best technology. The mule was supposed to be a refinement of that.

the thrasher is currently undergoing a "refreshing" and is in marks possesion agian.

[Steve25]

Was he impressed with the refinement? I have made refinements to engines that I just knew would work great and they were just terrible. I wonder if his refinements worked great. Also, how come Mark didn't try the one lap with the Mule camaro? Do you think Mark would do something all together different with the front suspension of a new camaro that would be even better and decently cost effective?

[dennis68]

Just a few words of advice....although Mark is a very talented builder, don't be too quick to brush off the advice of the rest of this board. There are many here who have much more experience building real world road course type suspensions than Mark.

Try posting exactly what you hope to acheive (realistically) and what kind of budget you have. Do you intend to do the work yourself? Do you have any fabrication experience? Do you have tools/welder or access to them?

[Steve25]

Please don't think that I don't value the advice from anyone else on this board. Most the people on this forum are heads and tales above me in knowledge on suspension design. I would value the opinion of anyone who would be so kind as to offer their advice. The reason for wanting to know Mark's opinion is because I knew that he had the chance to test the suspension designs that were used on both the Thasher and the Mule. If anyone else has done first hand testing, please offer your advice. Thanks in advance.
My budget is in the $3000 range for the front suspension, but no more than that. I do have a welder and I will do all of the work myself. I am a mechanic and love to fabricate. This is the most fun of the camaro project. I want to put everything together so that I can have the great feeling of accomplishment that comes with building your own high performance car.

[TonyL]

In order to bring to bear the knowledge base that is this forum, go ahead and start a new thread, with a title like "Need advice on building a race ready front suspension for my 69" or something along those lines. Most of our hard core guys will skim over a thread calling out just one expert.

**edit** as far as I know, after the mule got done, they couldnt bring themselves to thrash on it in 1 lap. It was just too nice. ( I could be wrong, but remember reading something like that here.)

[Steve25]

I remember reading that also. It was from popular hot rodding. It was just after the camaro was finished that Mark said this, but I didn't really think he meant it. You would think that he would want to test his knew ideas to see if they really worked. If anyone has any advise about front suspensions, but doesn't want to say anything because they don't want to make any manufacture mad that may read the posts; please just e-mail me at [email protected]

[trapin]

Steve...if your budget is no more than $3000, than a Wayne Due sub-frame is not in your future. They are nice systems...but there have been many people in the Pro-Touring community that have mopped up race circuits using a stock subframe with improvements to the original suspension. One that comes to mind (and is a regular here) is Dave Pozzi.

My advice?

- Weld the seams on your stock sub-frame......free
- Guldstrand Modification..............................free
- Global West Upper Control Arms.................$499
- Koni Adjustable Shocks.............................$200
- Addco 1" Sway Bar..................................$109
- Hotchkis Coil Springs................................$163
- Steering Box (I'm gussing you'll go AGR).......$283
Total............................................. ..........$1254

The rest you're going to need for you're brakes and misc parts like tie rods, bolts, idler arm, pitman, any stripping or powder-coating services. And the $1746 you have left over might not even cover that. Front suspensions are killer, bro.

[69CamaroLS1]

Mark Stielow........ My only Super Hero :worship:

[Steve25]

If I may ask, what name is Mark Stielow registered under. If Mark did reply, I might not even know it was him.

[ryans67deuce]

If I may ask, what name is Mark Stielow registered under. If Mark did reply, I might not even know it was him.


Ummm... try "Stielow".

[Steve25]

Everyone has been very helpful. If Charle would chime in and tell what his opinion between the front suspension of the Thrasher and Mule is I would love to hear. Also, if someone did know what Mark's opinion between the two suspension was, please chime in also. It looks like my best way to go is to modify my original subframe and then when my car is done and if it isn't adequate I will make my own full blown racing suspension, but I will always be curious on what Mark's observations were.

[Stielow]

From my experience the stock front sub on a first gen. car can be made to work very well. The biggest problem with the 1st gen. F&X- bodies front suspension is the stock front spindle is too short and it is rear steer.

My first Camaro I added big tires at all four corners and quickly discovered deflection over steer in the front suspension. This is caused by soft upper and lower control arm bushings, grippy tires and rigid rear steering system. This makes the car very non-linear in corners and darty. I fixed the deflection steer problem by installing very stiff (Solid) control arm bushings. Unfortunately I didn’t fix the camber gain problem (short spindle) before cashing this car and its replacement.

On my White 69 I deiced to fix the camber gain and roll center problem. I made new taller front spindles by welding two together to make a taller spindle. This worked fine but the stock bearings would look worn after each One Lap. But that car has ran in One Lap 5 times and finished as high as 4th over all.

Next I built the Red Witch. It had a taller spindle off of a 1987 Vett with stock length upper a-arm and a lengthen lower arm. That spindle is a tad too tall and I am reworking the car right now.

Then came the Thrasher. I built a unique front knuckle that accepted a C-5 Corvette bolt on hub and brake system. This seemed to work the best, but it also required a new drag link to fix the bump steer. I raced this car in One Lap in 2000 and was doing OK until I spun a rod bearing at Sebring. This car has a great feel on the road and the track a very nice driving car, but does get upset over un-smooth road surfaces

Not to leave well enough alone I purchased a Wayne Due front sub (Back when Art was still alive). The fab work on the front clip look great, it looked like a great part, light weight and used Vett chassis parts to boot. The problem that I found was the packaging. The rack need to be higher to help bump steer and that drives the rack into the oil pan. Also they recommend using a Mustang II rack and I never like the steering feel from the Mustang II rack. For the Mule we had a custom shortened C-4 rack made to fix the bump steer and the steering shudder problem that the Mule had.

On the track the Mule works great with the new front clip and the 5 link rear suspension. I have no experience with The Wayne Due front clip on a car with leaf springs. I do think that the Wayne Due front clip is not as stiff or heavy as an OE piece so I tied it into the structure of the Mule with down bars through the dash. Of all the cars that I have built the Mule rides the best and handles the best. But I’m still not thrilled with the steering feel. We have had 2 racks in the car and still don’t have it perfect. With the full coil suspension and all the light parts the car rides great even on the 18 inch rubber that is on the car.

I have the Thrasher back now and plan to retune the chassis this summer from what I have learned over the last 3 years tuning GM’s car at the track. This is a very capable car and should work even better with some tweaks.

I have not looked at all the new stuff on the market but I have had great success with:

Global West
Detroit Speed
Hotchkis
Herb Adams

One thing to keep in mind a chassis is a system of parts that need to be tuned, try to stay with one supplier to start off with and follow there recommendations so the car is safe.

I spend up to a full year at GM developing a new chassis for a car and travel to many tracks to optimize the package. So be patient and start with a companies “package” and start tuning it from there.

Good luck

Stielow

[Steve25]

Mark Stielow, thank you for posting. This really made my day because you are definitely my favorite guy to read about. There seems to be a ton of knowledge on this site from very good people. Thanks! Also can anyone find the number to order the SED spindles that accept the Vette hub and brakes?

[ryans67deuce]

... For the Mule we had a custom shortened C-4 rack made to fix the bump steer and the steering shudder problem that the Mule had......


Mark,

If you have time, I'd like to know how this was done, and if you know of a shop with the capabilities to do this. I have a WD clip on my ChevyII and need a narrowed Rack for it. Any help you could give would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Ryan

[Zefhix]

I spend up to a full year at GM developing a new chassis for a car and travel to many tracks to optimize the package. So be patient and start with a companies “package” and start tuning it from there.

Good luck

Stielow

Mark, would that be the Cobalt SS? I heard you had a lot to do with the suspension on that car. :cool:

[nkopper]

Mark,

What kind of drag link was used to correct bump steer on the Thrasher? Was the new part required even when you used bolt-on factory steering arms?

PLEASE keep us up to date on the tweaks made to the Thrasher. Those of us that will be using SED uprights (or the ATS version) will be very interested to see how you improve the Thrasher's suspension.



Nathan

[trapin]

On the track the Mule works great with the new front clip and the 5 link rear suspension.

Well now....for all the nay-sayers, there's your proof that The Mule has indeed stretched her legs on a road course.

We can finally put this puppy to bed. :drive:

[Steve25]

I agree with you, Nathan. I hope Mark keeps us up to date on the Thrasher and the Red Witch also. Mark Stielow, if you read my last blurb on the thread "I need advise on a race ready front suspension for a 67 Camaro", please let me know your thoughts.

[Charley Lillard]

I just want to inform you guys that one of the reasons Mark does not post much is because one answer seems to generate 20 questions and requests. He has a full time job and does his car stuff at night in what spare time he has. If he answers all questions that are asked of him he will never have time to get other stuff done. And when the questions are asked, if he does not respond then some people get mad because he did not reply. He doesn't want to offend people by not responding so laying low seems to be the only recourse outside of doing articles that answer alot of peoples questions. In other words, try not to take it personally if he doesn't respond in a timely manner.

[Steve25]

Charley, I completely understand. He would have never gotten the Mule done if he stayed at home and answered everyones questions on this forum. I didn't really expect for him to answer the questions that I did have, but I do feel honored that he did take the time to tell me about his experiences. It is really sad that some people think that Mark owes them a response to every question they might have. If anything, we all owe Mark for what he has done for the Pro Touring community. Mark seems like a pretty good guy to me because he publishes his findings about what works and doesn't work just like so many other wise and generous people on this site. He is letting people learn from his mistakes so they don't have to spend the money to find out for themselves. He is the reason some of us have gotten so interested in pro touring. I have a hunger to innovate and think of things probably because I have followed all the magazines that cover Mark's camaros. He always innovates and finds something to make all of his camaros better.
By the way, you don't have to answer this Charlie, but do you like any one of your 1st gen. camaros better than the others?

[Charley Lillard]

I think the Red Witch is kinda special to me as it is such a comfortable car with lots of torque. It doesn't care what gear you are in. It has the perfect stance and look to me. It would be harder for me to get around a road course with it because of the torque but what a fun street car. Between me and Mark it has about 20K miles on it. Even all rock chipped it still looks bitchin just sitting still. Ask me again tomorrow and you might get a different answer.

[David Pozzi]

It's so nice to have the cars compared by the guy who built them! :bananna2:

[Steve Chryssos]

Having seen all three cars in person (all at different times), I would have to agree that I like the Red Witch best.

More than any other car, the Red Witch has you thinking "Hey...I can build a car like this, and yes I CAN stomp on this thing!" Even the specialty and one-off parts leave you thinking "I can do that"

[TitoJones]

Taken from a thread @ Lateral-G:

I can think of a nice case of a balanced car-
Stielow's Thrasher.
It had a well designed chassis system (not exotic custom parts) balanced engine, decent sized tires (No mini tubbing) and was run at the One Lap Of America with very good results.
I'd like to see if the Mule can turn a faster lap time than the Thrasher.
I know I'm comparing Apples to Oranges, but let's break it down:

Thrasher-
1969 Chevy Camaro
406 small block- 600 hp
T56 six speed
Stock front subframe with Global West Bushings, and 1" taller spindle, Landrum weight jacks, and Koni shocks
Landrum rear leaf springs with Global West bushings, Koni shocks and a Currie 9" ford rear with 3:93 rear gear
17x8.5 BBS rims (front) 18x9.5 BBS rims (rear)

Mule-
1969 Chevy Camaro
Twin Turbo'd small block (1100+ hp in full trim)
T56 six speed
Wayne Due C4 front subframe with Global West bushings, and QA1 coil overs
Custom designed 4 link rear with Currie 9" rear end
18x9.5 Fikse rims (front) 18x12 Fikse rims (rear)

Very different setups on these cars, but I still feel that the Thrasher would turn a faster lap time due to its well balanced setup, and good power ratio. I think the Mule would spin tires out of corners, possibly creating oversteer, and slower lap times.

So Charley- Which do you think is faster?

His Response:

If you put me against me in the Mule and the Thrasher on the track, the Thrasher would win. Thrasher is a better balanced car. The power is managable. There is at least 200 lbs added to the front of the Mule because of the added turbos. Maybe a good driver like Mark could handle all the power of the Mule on a track but I doubt if I could. Thrasher has a 614 hp 427 smallblock that is a ball to drive on the street and the track. I watch all these supposed track cars being built that are gonna be 1000 hp+ and wonder who is gonna drive them ? How many have driven a 1000 hp car ? It is a handful. Tito... As per your other thread about twin turbos for 50-50. You need to get it finished. Do a LS1 or a C5R type 427 without turbos . Make 600 plus hp and you will be thrilled. I did the twin turbos on the Mule because I wanted more than the 525 hp it had and there were always twin turbos kinda planned for it. I think the car turned out killer and I love driving it but it is no longer the ultimate track car for a guy like me. I am fortunate enough to have enough money to piss away on several cars so I can try different stuff. Most of my driving is on the street and we have plenty of country roads around here so the excess of twin turbos is fun but for a track car that also sees street duty a 600 plus NA car will be a ball. Get the car finished Teetoe, without turbos and you will be done sooner and still have fun. If anybody wants a fun track car just copy the Thrasher.

Steve25-
My company will be re-doing the SED spindle with some minor design and manufacturing changes. You can contact us about them by clicking on the car in my sig.

Tyler

[Conekiller13]

Now see....................I think I could 1100hp in My Chevelle. Just have to ease that throttle comming on to the straight. I've got a Ferrari F-50 and an Enzo and a Carrea GT to catch at My local track! I need all the hp I can get for My brick. Hey Charlie, if I tell You the next day one of those cars will be at the track, will You bring the Mule or the Thrasher up to Portland to see how it does against the European exotics? :hail:

[Charley Lillard]

Mark now has the Thrasher and the Mule is still back there also. I would be happy finding the time to take something to Thunderhill but that hasn't happened lately either.

[Conekiller13]

Mule VS. Enzo :worship: Tell 'em to hurry up on that thing.

[Charley Lillard]

Uh...You're nuts...My money is on the Enzo every time.

[jigga99]

where could you see all marks cars does he have a website?

[Big $$$]

Ive got a question for Stielow, what was the weight distribution front and rear for the Silver camaro??? Or does anyone know?

[ProStreet R/T]

Uh...You're nuts...My money is on the Enzo every time.

Depends on the track, quite a few where the monster HP will absolutely destroy an enzo.

Also I wouldn't worry much about the 1100hp, your not going to try to put it all to the ground in 1st gear. Staged boost settings for each gear, and a light touch on the throttle goes a long way. Also with turbo cars you can over gear them (as in short, say 3.27 etc.) and tame the monster torque they make down low.

That being said I would prefer to do laps with a big set of hoosiers on it, but it could be tuned for street tires.

[Big $$$]

Ferrari enzo.. they only pull a 1.02 g force around corners. Mule pulls 1.05g . Ferrari's are overrated... Most people who brag on the Ferrari only believe what they wanna...
Ferrari also has a worse braking distance than a stock Z06... sad

[TitoJones]

Ferrari also has a worse braking distance than a stock Z06... sad

I'm sure that has nothing to do with the fact that the Enzo has full carbon disc brakes and pads. They only work really good when they are very hot. I'd bet that the Enzo would destroy a Z06 on back to back repeated high speed 100-0 stops.
If you've ever driven a car that has full carbon brakes on the street (I have, in a Jaguar XJ220) it can be down right freakish when you hit the brakes, and nothing happens for a good 2 seconds. Shortly there after, the brakes heat up and grab. HARD.

Tyler

[silver69camaro]

Ferrari enzo.. they only pull a 1.02 g force around corners. Mule pulls 1.05g . Ferrari's are overrated... Most people who brag on the Ferrari only believe what they wanna...
Ferrari also has a worse braking distance than a stock Z06... sad

You can brag how these numbers are better than those numbers...but the G number is only a small story about how the car really behaves on the track. What about transitions? Tuned shock valving? How does the driver feel while entering and exiting turns?