Hot parts versus driver skill

[derekf]

This is a section of a thread that was going on in the moderator's forum. It started as a commentary on a couple of posts and whether any moderation was needed, and turned into a conversation that should probably be opened up to everyone. These are the relevant posts.

[parsonsj]

Kudos to Air Ride for getting out there and beating the crap out of their test mules, but that's the real reason their cars do so well. Doing well at an autoX is more dependent on seat time and dial-in than on optimized kinematics.

Obviously their stuff doesn't suck or they wouldn't do as well as they do, but I for one hope that DSE, Global West, and others continue to market competing products.

Steel springs forever! :)

jp

[Nine Ball]

I was a big skeptic on Air Ride on the performance level, but after riding in and watching some badass 1st gens handle very well with the system, I'm a believer.

The truth is that 95% of the buyers for ANY of these suspension setups will never use them even close to potential. All the "good suspension geometry" in the world won't matter on crappy non-race tires while on a good track.

Guldstrand mod on some 17s with sticky track tires and decent shocks with leafs will handle pretty damn good, better than the "perfect suspension geometry" cars on craptastic 20" wheels on narrow non-race tires.

[TonyL]

Guldstrand mod on some 17s with sticky track tires and decent shocks with leafs will handle pretty damn good, better than the "perfect suspension geometry" cars on craptastic 20" wheels on narrow non-race tires.

Exactly. Too bad that's getting lost under the mountain of "OMG Buy Uber PaRtZ!!!11!" out there. It's now all about the parts and not about the setting them up anymore.

[CarlC]

Guldstrand mod on some 17s with sticky track tires and decent shocks with leafs will handle pretty damn good, better than the "perfect suspension geometry" cars on craptastic 20" wheels on narrow non-race tires.

Werd

[Steve1968LS2]

Kudos to Air Ride for getting out there and beating the crap out of their test mules, but that's the real reason their cars do so well. Doing well at an autoX is more dependent on seat time and dial-in than on optimized kinematics.

Obviously their stuff doesn't suck or they wouldn't do as well as they do, but I for one hope that DSE, Global West, and others continue to market competing products.

Steel springs forever! :)

jp

What about the autocross from hell at Pidgeon Forge? They had never driven that track and they beat everyone, including DSE and others. Even when they used the same driver for all the cars. lol

I think air ride is too bulky and complicated so I don't run it, but I will someday. I also think it works really really good.

Most of this suspension stuff is how well any given set of parts is dialed in. ART stuff is VERY dialed in.

Wait till you guys see the crashed ART Chevelle in the upcoming PHR (when the spindle snapped).. that should start a few threads. lol

[Steve1968LS2]

Exactly. Too bad that's getting lost under the mountain of "OMG Buy Uber PaRtZ!!!11!" out there. It's now all about the parts and not about the setting them up anymore.

It's true.. it's a ton of money to make the car marginally faster at best. At the RTTH event all the top cars were within a few tenths of each other.

Part of this hobby is function an part is form.. it's just the way it is.

[Larry Callahan]

Something I know is they all will out perform my driving level. lol!

Something I have always wondered is how much does the difference in HP play into it? It seams that Air Ride always has plenty on tap. Don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking Air Ride. I may run it myself. I just wonder if you had the same driver, same car, same tires, same HP what would rise to the top? I guess we will never know.

[TonyL]

I guess we will never know.

Side. By. Side. Comparison.

Same car, same engine, same driver. Different suspension systems.

A magazine HAS to do this one day. Take a full out, "pro-touring" car (like steve's future TrackRat.) get it done, fully dialed in on springs.
then have air ride install their system and have the same driver test the car again.

[zbugger]

Side. By. Side. Comparison.

Same car, same engine, same driver. Different suspension systems.

A magazine HAS to do this one day. Take a full out, "pro-touring" car (like steve's future TrackRat.) get it done, fully dialed in on springs.
then have air ride install their system and have the same driver test the car again.

If only it were that easy. I think finding a place to do it indoors might be a better attempt. But then, who races indoors besides monster trucks? It's been done with the same driver and on street tires before at Pigeon Forge. Hell, there's even a guy wanting actual numbers rather than looking at the side by side comparison from the Run Through the Hills event.

Oh, and at the last Goodguys show here, I told one of the ART reps that I'd only run the ATS spindles on the front of my car. lol... He actually took it well.

[trapin]

Guldstrand mod on some 17s with sticky track tires and decent shocks with leafs will handle pretty damn good, better than the "perfect suspension geometry" cars on craptastic 20" wheels on narrow non-race tires.
Well that's good to know. I don't have the Guldstrand Mod but I do have all those other features and the ATS spindles.

I wasn't necessarily talking about the performance advantage of Air Ride. My opinion is based on the fact that people tend to gravitate towards the products that don't require them to think as much. Air Ride gives you everything you need and all the features for about 8 bills, that's both front and rear suspension. You'll burn through 8 bills just setting up a front suspension with the Art Morrison stuff or DS&E.

[parsonsj]

My opinion is based on the fact that people tend to gravitate towards the products that don't require them to think as much.

True dat.


What about the autocross from hell at Pidgeon Forge? They had never driven that track and they beat everyone, including DSE and others. Even when they used the same driver for all the cars. lolI'll say it again (you magazine guys don't listen :) ) : Doing well at an autoX is more dependent on seat time and dial-in than on optimized kinematics. All of the Air Ride guys get lots and lots (and lots) of seat time.

I've spent some time with my local club doing autoXing, and the experienced guys go faster than the newbies. Happens every month, and it doesn't matter much about the particular layout or even which car is used.

Kudos (again) to Air Ride, but they are making market inroads because of hard work, tenacity, and will.

jp

[parsonsj]

Something I have always wondered is how much does the difference in HP play into it?I think HP hurts most of us newbies. At low speeds in 1st or 2nd gear, most of us go into the turns too hot (trailbraking) and just naturally power out of the turn. It is faster than driving gingerly, but it isn't the optimum way to drive. Watch the Air Ride guys and you will see tighter lines, an actual search for the apex of turn, and as a result better times.

One other thing is that both RTTH2 and RTTH3 were set up for high-powered cars, giving even more advantage to high hp cars.

I know: I should just bring II Much out and show everybody. The problem is that I'm still a newbie, and am still learning to drive. My 20 runs a year pales in comparison to the hundreds the pros get. Sigh.

jp

[Nine Ball]

Seat time is definitely critical, especially in the same vehicle. Good example this past weekend, I had the Viper out on a brand new road course in San Marcos, TX. Really nice 1.8 mile course with several elevation changes (on the side of a large hill) and sweeping turns, even a few blind corners. My first 5 laps behind a slow ass Porsche which I wasn't allowed to pass seemed kind of quick. Then the Porsche exited and I was able to push the car harder each lap. I thought those first 5 seemed quick, but as I got used to the car and track I was blazing much quicker around it. I got in about 20 laps, each one slightly better than the last.

Pretty cool experience. After driving the modded C6 and this modded Viper on road courses, the C6 is much easier to handle and look like a pro with. The Viper sure makes you pay more attention, it likes to oversteer on the throttle out of turns. Corvette was much more confidence inspiring, kind of like a point-n-shoot ride.

[CarlC]

You can have the best set of golf clubs in the world, and Tiger will eat your lunch with a 50-year old yard sale set.

$500 baseball bat? Hank Aaron would clobber you with a little league stick.

A super zoot-capri tons-o-money car vs. Mary in her Camaro? I'm betting my money on ghost flames.

It's kinda sad to see that in many ways members get into a frenzy about what is the greatest, latest, most bitchin thing out there and loose sight of their goal due to indecision and poor choices. There are a ton of solid builds out there that will work just fine, but the pressure some put on themselves to be accepted as having a cool PT build makes them stray from the path.

Yikes, how did this thread get here?

[parsonsj]

You can have the best set of golf clubs in the world, and Tiger will eat your lunch with a 50-year old yard sale set.That's not what I'm saying exactly. The analogy fits better with what I'm saying if we substitute a local high school golf team player for Tiger.


It's kinda sad to see that in many ways members get into a frenzy about what is the greatest, latest, most bitchin thing out there and loose sight of their goal due to indecision and poor choices. There are a ton of solid builds out there that will work just fine, but the pressure some put on themselves to be accepted as having a cool PT build makes them stray from the path. Too true, though TonyR's point is that Air Ride is the company making full on suspension changes the easiest for enthusiasts, and I agree.

jp

[David Pozzi]

Once you have reasonable horsepower, brakes, traction and suspension, then the driver has to make the most of it. Most novices will get pretty nervous at an autocross, now run two or three autocrosses or open tracks a month, and your nerves settle down and you do a whole lot better at focusing on your driving. Usually nerves cause you to over drive the car at some point and that flat kills your time in an autocross. Reading the course correctly will help you take advantage of the most important zone, the longest straightaway, you need to get on and off the longest straight with the best possible speed to cut a good lap time. Then work down to successive shorter straights. Running often and in the same car pays huge benefits.

As far as the same driver testing multiple cars, it is generally a good way to go, but if the driver is also testing a car he drives often, that car is going to be set up the way he prefers, and he has much more seat time in it, so I'd expect him to do the best in his own car. If he turned a better lap in some other car, that would count for a lot!

If a car has a bit more understeer than others, it might be much slower, even though it has superior suspension geometery and lighter weight. Any fair test should allow some tuning time for each car to get the right balance for the course. Concrete pavement has more grip than Asphalt, so it usually makes a car understeer a bit more, (rear tires grab better) but concrete tends to allow a car to break loose and slide much more easily once the limit is exceeded. Tires make a huge difference, all cars tested should be on the exact same tire. Car setup may have to be changed to accommodate the new tires.

One thing I noticed about some of the air ride cars from the video was the larger amount of front end lift and rear squat, Except for the yellow Nova, which looked frozen, it looked way too stiff and just skated around the course. But for those who want a variable ride height and good ride on the street, their system is pretty good. For a car to autocross a lot, - not my idea of ideal, but you could have fun with it. :)
David

[Nine Ball]

Damn this would be a good topic to have in the public forums. I wonder if someone could doctor it up and move it for all the world to enjoy :)

It might cut down on some of the myths related to checkbook = performance.

[CarlC]

Agreed John. It just frustrates me that so many home-builders who lack experience and finances will make themselves broke or get stuck in mid-build because they think they must have a particular flavor-of-the-day setup. Seems the majority of people having the most fun are those that have not dumped a ton of money in their car, but instead are driving it.

One-upmanship can also be a killer disease.

[andrewb70]

Damn this would be a good topic to have in the public forums. I wonder if someone could doctor it up and move it for all the world to enjoy :)

It might cut down on some of the myths related to checkbook = performance.

Tony,

Sadly very few people care. This is a car hobby, not a self improvement hobby. People want to believe what they want to believe. Most of the time they happen to believe that the most expensive parts are the best and the best parts make the car faster (bigger, better, faster, more, etc....) Remember also that this hobby is about bragging rights. Part of that is having the most up to date, double throw down, latest greatest. You get my point.

Andrew