Where is my diesel?

[Damn True]

Ok let's be honest. The only real viable alternative to gasoline given current technologies is diesel. The big 3 have innumerable great diesel engines in use in cars in EU, SA and Asia. Why the heck are they not offering them in cars here?

Why do cars like the focus, Saturn Aura, etc which exist in europe with diesel engines not have a diesel option on the US version? The little 1.8 tdi's that are in the cars have more than enough power to operate at autobahn speeds, provide great mileage and run reasonably clean.

Why can you not get a 2l or 3l diesel in a compact truck like a Ford Ranger or in 1/2-ton trucks? They'd provide more than enough power for towing and get mileage that would far exceed that of the 5.0l or 6.0l v8s that are in many of the 1/2-tons.

A year or two ago the EPA changed the restricitions on diesel sulphur content to allow the big-3 to do just that. Yet nothing has happened. They backed it up by publishing an estimate that if only 20% of the US vehicle fleet were running diesel rather than gasoline we'd reduce our crude oil consumption by something like 500,000 barrels per day!

Is it simply a matter of marketing? Are people so stuck on the image of the smoke belching mid-70's Mercedes diesel that they won't accept a new-tech version?

So Tony, and any others that work for the big-3. What gives? Where's my diesel?

[JEFFTATE]

I've been asking the same question for years !

[moreHP]

From what I have read the emissions standards are still too tough for the diesel cars(at least here in california) The mercedes diesels got popular in the last big gas crunch of the 70's so maybe the prices of today will help change whats available here. But I agree that having a little runaround car that got 50mpg would be nice.

[Damn True]

It makes no sense at all to me. I mean even the European car makers seem recalcitrant to provide diesel options.

Audi has been spending millions in diesel research and has some brilliant powerplants in Europe, and here...nothing. I rented a BMW 530 in Germany on business two years ago that had a diesel v8 in it and OH MY GOD WHAT AN ENGINE!!! yet it isn't offered here.

...and all we get is corn (more accurately, the cob, dry, without a kiss, and no reach-around). Which is an absolute joke. Take away the federal subsidy (which should have been done years ago) and there is no profit in it, the barrel:acre yield is horrific, and there simply isn't enough arable land on which to grow enough of it to make a dent without driving food costs through the roof and causing food shortages in other countries....oh wait, that's already happened, and if that isn't enough.....cars get worse mileage on it. Great idea!

[nicks67camaro]

I'm right there with ya! Check out the BMW twin turbo diesel.....very cool... I think this may land in the US in the 3/5 series I also heard that they are very clean diesels

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/technology/innovation_lounge/allfacts/phase_3/twin_turbo_diesel.html

[DJW32]

A turbo diesel audi would be great

[ironworks]

I bet it has something to do with the miles per gallon standard they have to meet as a whole and diesels may not help with that. I believe it is the cafe standards.

I could be in left field..... I usually am.

Rodger

[megaladon6]

they're coming, don't worry.
VW, audi, GM, dodge, Me/Be, and BMW all have cars for 09 or 10 that pass cali ULEV emissions. the GM is supposed to be (i've heard) a 5cyl 3.?l inline offered in the midsize and larger vehicles like park aves, bonnevilles and the colorado truck and other SUV's.
people also still have the impression that disel's suck because of the 80's olds 350. and they freak at diesel prices even though at 15% more per gallon but 200%MPG you still save a but-load of money.

[JEFFTATE]

GM is gonna make a smaller version of an engine similar to the Duramax for use in smaller trucks and SUV's.
Like maybe the Colorado and Trailblazer and/or the half ton 1500 truck.

[Boesch]

The price of diesel isn't going to help make people want to buy them when they do come.

[Damn True]

The price of diesel isn't going to help make people want to buy them when they do come.

50mpg and gas v-8 power will help. Yes the fuel costs in some places 10-15% more, but when you get waaaaay better mileage it offsets that.

...and the price of diesel is artificially high. It has risen because the refineries have switched more of their capacity to gasoline production so the supply of diesel is reduced, the demand is the same so the cost goes up. If there are fewer gasoline engines on the road and more diesel engines the supply/demand curve swings, and the refineries will change their production to reflect the demand.

[Boesch]

Very true...a lot of those small cars over seas do get incredible gas mileage. I don't think people are buying a prius because they like the way it looks.

[Steve Chryssos]

True,
These guys will help you put diesel in Half-Trak. Better yet, go bio-diesel. Affordable, powerful, efficient and smells
DELICIOUS!


http://www.pacificp.com/index.php?main_page=page_8

[TonyL]

I cannot believe we don't have them (diesel cars) here in California of all places. It's insanity. Jettas can get as much as 60+ mpg. Take *that* toyota prius, and your pitiful 40 mpg.

I'd gladly pay extra for diesel if it meant i could go almost twice as far on it.

[Damn True]

I dunno about that Steve-O, I still want a good old gas burning v-8 in my toy, but for a daily driver....gimme that diesel.

I rented a Renault Megane wagon in Italy when my wife and I went there for our wedding. It was the same size as my Subaru outback, had more than enough power for the autostrada (it saw 120 mph more than a little bit and cruised at 95mph all day long) and got 50mpg.

Dude!

[TonyL]

should be required watching for all hybrid owners
LmG05AtNVtM

[z65mm6]

Anyone know if any of the big 3 have looked at lean burn technology?
It's my understanding that lean burn technology is prevalent in many Middle Eastern countries. The downside is that when you take a gasoline engine and lean it out it ups nitrogen oxides.

Since diesels use fuel as the limiting reagent the result is not unlike that of a really lean running engine.

I thought that was the biggest reason for diesels and lean burn engines not being prevalent in the US, Nitrogen oxides. Ford's solution was to use a post combustion injector on their diesel trucks that does nothing other than add fuel to the exhaust to reduce NOx emissions. I think Ford still does this and I'm almost positive that GM and Dodge do the same. Just out of curiosity can anyone verify that?

I know NOx requirements are a very big challenge for road tractor manufacturers that have to meet more stringent emissions. One proposed remedy that I heard of involved a post combustion injection system that would introduce Urea into the exhaust.

Urea for those that don't know is an organic compound produced in some quantities by most biological organisms by metabolizing proteins.

So one proposed solution was to inject what amounts to cat pee into the exhaust. Since that would require a secondary injection system and the resulting infrastructure to distribute the cat pee or the addition of a kennel on the truck to house a cat and then there's feeding the cat a high protien diet, I think most rejected the idea in favor of a much much more expensive catalytic converter that has a somewhat limited lifespan.

So there you have it, the EPA at it's best, we don't care how much fuel you use and at what cost so long as it farts flowers.

[JWilson]

I've read somewhere that they are on the way, and for some reason Ford trucks and SUV's being available with them is specifically coming to mind. I think the two biggest hurdles have been noted above, the stigma from the 70's/80's diesels, and getting the average buyer to big picture the mpg and get past the price/gallon.

And, btw True, thanks for the use of recalcitrant in the original post! Had'nt seen that one used in a while.

Jason

[megaladon6]

because the diesel is injected into the compressed air it doesn't spread evenly. this creates hot spots, leading to increased NOx. with the new EFI control that fires the injector multiple times per ignition event and the increased pressure (25,000psi+) the NOx levels are very low. the urea tech is for reducing the particulate levels. the only real challenge they had was making it last for 100k mi but it does work well (unfortunately cat piss won't work). the other way (which ford and gm use on the trucks) is a Diesel Particulate Filter, basically the diesel version of a catalytic convt'r. it stores the particulates for awhile then extra fuel is injected (through the cylinders) to increase the temp to the point that everything burns. this (combined with the specially designed exhaust tips) has a cool side effect on the fords--flamethrowers!! they were overfueling and the mix was igniting at the tailpipe.
if you look at racing, i believe F1, audi has been kicking a$$ with a v12 TDI with DPF's. the other cars are blowing smoke but the diesel exhaust is clean. ironic isn't it? plus they are screwing up the drivers because they can't hear the engine anymore.
speaking of the epa idiots and diesels, they made VW put an egr valve on my car, 97 tdi jetta, to sell them here. too bad it wound up RAISING the emissions level. although they now have it figured out, another reason the new diesels are ULEV.

[6'9"Witha69]

GM is gonna make a smaller version of an engine similar to the Duramax for use in smaller trucks and SUV's.
Like maybe the Colorado and Trailblazer and/or the half ton 1500 truck.Think 4.5L 72* bank V8. Unveiled earlier this year at the NAIAS. Same exterior dimensions and mounting pads as a Gen III and IV stuff.

Trying to find a link. . .

[6'9"Witha69]

Found it
http://jalopnik.com/347346/2010-45l-duramax-diesel-has-shockingly-brilliant-design

[Fuelie Fan]

Are you sure about that last bit? I've never heard of madated equipment. All the test procedure usually mandates is emission requirements, and its up to the manufacturer to decide how to meet them. Could you provide a link or reference?


because the diesel is injected into the compressed air it doesn't spread evenly. this creates hot spots, leading to increased NOx. with the new EFI control that fires the injector multiple times per ignition event and the increased pressure (25,000psi+) the NOx levels are very low. the urea tech is for reducing the particulate levels. the only real challenge they had was making it last for 100k mi but it does work well (unfortunately cat piss won't work). the other way (which ford and gm use on the trucks) is a Diesel Particulate Filter, basically the diesel version of a catalytic convt'r. it stores the particulates for awhile then extra fuel is injected (through the cylinders) to increase the temp to the point that everything burns. this (combined with the specially designed exhaust tips) has a cool side effect on the fords--flamethrowers!! they were overfueling and the mix was igniting at the tailpipe.
if you look at racing, i believe F1, audi has been kicking a$$ with a v12 TDI with DPF's. the other cars are blowing smoke but the diesel exhaust is clean. ironic isn't it? plus they are screwing up the drivers because they can't hear the engine anymore.
speaking of the epa idiots and diesels, they made VW put an egr valve on my car, 97 tdi jetta, to sell them here. too bad it wound up RAISING the emissions level. although they now have it figured out, another reason the new diesels are ULEV.

[Damn True]

should be required watching for all hybrid owners
LmG05AtNVtM

Once again and as always, Clarkson = brilliant.

My particular favorite Priusite behavoir is driving down the highway watching the screen attempting to maximize mpg at a particular speed which is often slower than the rest of the traffic and of course THEY AREN'T LOOKING AT THE ROAD!!!!!!!

[megaladon6]

i learned about the egr a few years ago so i don't know where exactly. probably on tdiclub.com

[MrQuick]

Why go backwards? How many public transportation busses do you see now running on it? 30-40%? Diesel sure didn't help mexico city.

I've been a diesel tech for many years and with the adoption of high pressure systems and catalyst systems it helps but it still is a fossil fuel and very hazardous. After 3 years of exposure to diesel pump fuel I have developed an allergec reaction to it. The smell alone triggers migranes and the fuel contact itself gives me hives and have cause a strange excema type reaction to other co workers.

I hope bio fuel and cng are developed further more so than diesel.

The new high pressure system coupled with the catalyst works well but oxides of nitrogen are still sky high.

[megaladon6]

yeah, i'd love to see them develop biodiesel on a large scale.
the nox levels can't be that high if they're ULEV certified.
one small tip, stop bathing in diesel! j/k:)

[tellyv]

well I'm going to rant a little, 1st I agree at $5 per gallon who's going to buy one 2nd the new big 3 diesel trucks that run only on low sulfer get crappy milage my 04 dmax gets 20-22 empty my buddies got a new one he's lucky to get 16 so at the price of fuel the 6-8k that you pay more for one is going to kill the sales of new diesel pickups and plus when they break it cost 2x the money to fix oil changes are double I could go on and on. Now the big one the reason why fuel and why these new fuel efficiant vehicles arent in the us is because of our gov. the oil companies pay are gov. very well thats the reason nothing changes and it probably wont get better intill they completely ruin this country and suck every penny out of the working class.

[moreHP]

That hybrid video is freakin hilarious!:lmao:

[Damn True]

Why go backwards? How many public transportation busses do you see now running on it? 30-40%? Diesel sure didn't help Mexico city.

I've been a diesel tech for many years and with the adoption of high pressure systems and catalyst systems it helps but it still is a fossil fuel and very hazardous. After 3 years of exposure to diesel pump fuel I have developed an allergic reaction to it. The smell alone triggers migraines and the fuel contact itself gives me hives and have cause a strange eczema type reaction to other co workers.

I hope bio fuel and cng are developed further more so than diesel.

The new high pressure system coupled with the catalyst works well but oxides of nitrogen are still sky high.

Well see that's one of the great things about it. We can use diesel made from crude. AND we can make it out of damn near any organic material. A friend of mine is on the BOD for a biodiesel firm. According to him we could potentially reduce landfill contribution by over 50% by using the organic material for BD production. Even if that is a wildly optimistic estimate that is a LOT of material that gets put to good use making safe clean fuel.


well I'm going to rant a little, 1st I agree at $5 per gallon who's going to buy one 2nd the new big 3 diesel trucks that run only on low sulfer get crappy milage my 04 dmax gets 20-22 empty my buddies got a new one he's lucky to get 16 so at the price of fuel the 6-8k that you pay more for one is going to kill the sales of new diesel pickups and plus when they break it cost 2x the money to fix oil changes are double I could go on and on.
Oh please don't.

First of all we are talking about small diesel engines in small cars and small trucks. The V-14 SUPERTRUCKALERO you are driving a) weighs more than some military vehicles b) is as aerodynamic as my house and c) will not make your unit any larger. The two hardly compare.

Second - Modern tdi vehicles routinely get 50-60mpg. That increase in mpg more than offsets the 10-15% more expensive fuel cost.

Third - You pay someone to change your oil? Dude!


Now the big one the reason why fuel and why these new fuel efficiant vehicles arent in the us is because of our gov. the oil companies pay are gov. very well thats the reason nothing changes and it probably wont get better

Well written...wow.

Are you Woodward or Bernstein? Please, show me the document that supports this claim of horrific malfeasance.

The oil companies do pay the Government. Just as every corporation....and citizen does. Some call this taxation.


intill they completely ruin this country and suck every penny out of the working class.

Wow. Just wow. Which union rep told you that?

Those darn bourgeois rich keeping the proletariat down again. Off with their heads!

[MrQuick]

Well see that's one of the great things about it. We can use diesel made from crude. AND we can make it out of damn near any organic material. A friend of mine is on the BOD for a biodiesel firm. According to him we could potentially reduce landfill contribution by over 50% by using the organic material for BD production. Even if that is a wildly optimistic estimate that is a LOT of material that gets put to good use making safe clean fuel.

Oh please don't.
First of all we are talking about small diesel engines in small cars and small trucks. The V-14 SUPERTRUCKALERO you are driving a) weighs more than some military vehicles b) is as aerodynamic as my house and c) will not make your unit any larger. The two hardly compare.

Modern tdi vehicles routinely get 50-60mpg. That increase in mpg more than offsets the 10-15% more expensive fuel cost.

Well written...wow.

Are you Woodward or Bernstein? Please, show me the document that supports this claim of horrific malfeasance.

The oil companies do pay the Government. Just as every corporation....and citizen does. Some call this taxation.

Wow. Just wow. Which union rep told you that?

Those darn bourgeois rich keeping the proletariat down again. Off with their heads! Im doing just dandy aren't you? LOL

I argee, just get rid of the CRUDE part. Thats all we need is 50,000 little diesel pumpers out there. Bio is great but we could do the same with methane could we not? We put a lot in the ground. We belong to a wastefull society. Should I start working on the Delorean or are you? Mr Fusion 2010 here we come!!

Oh quit picking on him, maybe his typo checker is broken.

How soon will it be when people loose their jobs cause they could not afford to get to work? Delivery companys raise their prices due to fueling costs?

[Damn True]

Methane? I'd assume so at some point. But the technology to do so (transportation mainly) is not at economic maturity.

It's good stuff though:

SCIENCE CONTENT:
Also, methane's heat of combustion is about 891 kJ/mol, which is lower than any other hydrocarbon, but if a ratio is made with the molecular mass (16.0 g/mol) divided by the heat of combustion (891 kJ/mol) it is found that methane, being the simplest hydrocarbon, actually produces the most heat per unit mass than other complex hydrocarbons.

[streetk14]

BMW has their new all-aluminum, twin turbo 6 cylinder diesels coming to the US. soon. Should be in the 1 series, 3 series and possiblt one of the X series I think (not completely sure yet). I'll be going to my BMW diesel training class soon and I'll get all the info. I did take an online training session that gave me an overview of the new engines. A lot of effort has gone into making this a low-emission, high performance diesel engine. I think the main concern with diesels in the US market involves NOx output, which is caused by high combustion temperatures.

BMW is using EGR and a "selective Catalyst reduction" (SCR) system to lower NOx. The system uses a reducing agent (exhaust fluid) that is injected into the catalyst in very small quanities to reduce NOx. Apparently, this fluid needs to be topped off at every service. Don't forget to top off your exhaust fluid, LOL.

In addition to the SCR system, there are also 2 other exhaust system treatment systems needed. One is a diesel oxidation catalyst that lowers CO, HC and NO. Then there is the regenerating particulate filter that is to eliminate soot from the exhaust. This filter is monitored by pressure sensors and is"cleaned" by the ECM by changing fuel injection strategy to increase exhaust heat when the filter starts getting too full.

There's also other technologies, like Valvetronic (airflow controlled by intake valve lift Vs. a traditional throttle plate) and double Vanos that help with emissions and performance. All in all, there is a lot of stuff going on to make these engines US. emissions friendly and still fun to drive. The performance of the 330D is supposed to be impressive for a diesel and still get killer MPG. I guess we'll see how they do when we see them here.

Oh yeah, and it's supposed to put out 265 hp and 425 lb/ft of torque from a 3.0 liter. I'll keep the twin turbo N54 gasoline engine in my 335i, as I've never been a diesel fan. Maybe these new motors will change my mind.

Andy


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[MrQuick]

Hi Andy,

We (Mopar) are running the same type technology now but we will see where it goes now that the innovators of it are no longer in full charge. But they have initiated the use of the technology. A good start. The Liberty diesel didn't do well so I question the push to create another smaller vehicle.

Mopar is still pushing the hybrid Durango/Aspen. I believe GM is doing the same with the Tahoe. I see a few of them around here now. Even with the hybrid 5.7L hemi gas mileage will be 18mpg city and 23mpg highway.

However most new systems that I know of will not support the use of bio fuels. With the price of injectors and pumps I doubt the public would take the risk.

As far as methane, I meant as something potentialy helpfull (green) from waste. Not just fartin around in a car.

I can see True in a X5 xDrive35d. Best of both worlds.

[Turbo67camaro]

I've done a lot of research lately on clean diesel cars because my daily driver car is nearing end of life. Clean diesel burning cars are coming to the US. More than 50% of cars in Europe are diesel.

Mercedes has an E320 clean diesel model already for sale in the US.

Volkswagen is bringing a Jetta Sportwagen clean diesel in 2009 to the US. I'd be shocked if Audi diesels took longer than 2011 to show up here, but mums the word from Audi.

Honda has plans for an accord clean diesel that I'm guessing will take till 2010 or 2011 to hit the US.

These will be diesels usable in all 50 states, and certified to meet the latest and most stringent emissions requirements.

Toyota is jumping on the clean diesel bandwagon also, but I haven't found any ETA's on the arrivals of their offerings. They bought 5.9% of Isuzu in part because they are the largest manufacturers of diesel motors.

GM seems to only be bullish on clean diesels in a couple of truck models, less bullish in regular cars, but they are coming. I recall they were considering one small commuter car also, but it looked ugly to me so I didn't pay too much attention to it.

On average, clean diesels burn about as clean as gas cars, with slightly higher nitrous oxides, but with lower C02 output.

MPG will increase about 20 to 40% over gas equivalent cars.

They are not noisy, smelly, or dirty like their ancestors. But, that perception contributes to the hesitance to sell and buy diesels here.

They produce less horsepower, but more torque. The engines are simpler, more cost effective to operate than ANY other form of car, and more reliable.

In order to make gas from oil, I've been told that first the oil is made into diesel, and then goes through extra processing and expense to be made into gas. Someone with more insight than me will have to explain why diesel is more expensive. I guess it is a combination of smaller volume distribution / demand, coupled with political reasons.

No car manufacturer will get my money until they offer me a clean diesel car. I'm going to wait until Audi brings a clean diesel A3 to the US to buy my next daily driver.

There's a lot of credible information out there on the net related to this. Check it out.

P.S. traditional production of biodiesel has typically involved use of fossil fuels in the cultivation / manufacturing process from organic sources When the full environmental impact including manufacturing is taken into account, biodiesel was recently found to be worse for the environment than running a regular clean petroleum based diesel car. However, I've read there are new biosel creation technologies being developed that show promise to change this.

[tellyv]

Well if you dont think our government has anything to do with the state of our economy or that none of them take money from big buisness I think you live in a hole or dont have tv

I do agree that the little diesle is'nt a bad Idea but are those little motors getting that kind of mileage with all the new emissions?

By the way the only thing this shop doesnt do is the sewing of the seats we do everything else from complete resto's to pt cars !!!!! so I think I can change my own oil which is why the oil change cost double, double the oil double the price do you understand ?





Well see that's one of the great things about it. We can use diesel made from crude. AND we can make it out of damn near any organic material. A friend of mine is on the BOD for a biodiesel firm. According to him we could potentially reduce landfill contribution by over 50% by using the organic material for BD production. Even if that is a wildly optimistic estimate that is a LOT of material that gets put to good use making safe clean fuel.


Oh please don't.

First of all we are talking about small diesel engines in small cars and small trucks. The V-14 SUPERTRUCKALERO you are driving a) weighs more than some military vehicles b) is as aerodynamic as my house and c) will not make your unit any larger. The two hardly compare.

Second - Modern tdi vehicles routinely get 50-60mpg. That increase in mpg more than offsets the 10-15% more expensive fuel cost.

Third - You pay someone to change your oil? Dude!



Well written...wow.

Are you Woodward or Bernstein? Please, show me the document that supports this claim of horrific malfeasance.

The oil companies do pay the Government. Just as every corporation....and citizen does. Some call this taxation.



Wow. Just wow. Which union rep told you that?

Those darn bourgeois rich keeping the proletariat down again. Off with their heads!

[megaladon6]

P.S. traditional production of biodiesel has typically involved use of fossil fuels in the cultivation / manufacturing process from organic sources When the full environmental impact including manufacturing is taken into account, biodiesel was recently found to be worse for the environment than running a regular clean petroleum based diesel car. However, I've read there are new biosel creation technologies being developed that show promise to change this.
i keep hearing this and i am starting to think it's propaganda. they're using the amount of fuel burned in farm equipment used to cultivate the plants and the trucks that transport the plants right? but what if you run these on bio fuel? they're already diesels. that drops crude oil usage WAY down. i'm not concerned about the environment too much, especially since bio-fuel burns cleaner than diesel.
and considering that diesel bio fuel (don't know if thei applies to e85 type fuels) can be made from regular garbage and many different plant sources it gets even easier to find sources and it reduces garbage dumps.
tellyv: are you adding a lubricity agent (stanadyne is best, power service is better) to you're fuel and using 5w-40 synthetic oil? i know a few people who had problems after the low-sulfur swithc. all they needed was more lubricity in the injection pump. and you can run twice as long on a good diesel synthetic, cutting you're oil usage in half. plus if you live in an area that gets a real winter it makes cold starts much easier.

[Damn True]

Well if you dont think our government has anything to do with the state of our economy or that none of them take money from big buisness I think you live in a hole or dont have tv
Yes, every time the govt attemts to meddle in the economy it gets worse. Yes, they do "take money". Most of us call the program "taxation". Find me proof otherwise...go ahead...I'm waiting.




I do agree that the little diesle is'nt a bad Idea but are those little motors getting that kind of mileage with all the new emissions?

I think you're going to have a hard time finding a gas engine that won't outspend the diesel version of the same car.

DOE says;
$3.33 average for regular gas
$3.55 for premium
$3.96 for diesel
and 15,000 miles a year

29mpg Hwy for 2008 Jetta = 517 gallons of gas = $1722
42mpg Hwy for 2006 TDI Jetta = 357 gallons of diesel = $1414

Maybe an E-class is more your style;
23mpg Hwy for E350 Sedan = 652 gallons of gas = $2315
32mpg Hwy for E320 Blu = 469 gallons of gas = $1857

Even the Euro cars are in the same boat, the 335d gets MUCH better mileage than the 335. The Honda Accord diesel has been getting some BIG mpg number (50's and 60's).

[streetk14]

Hi Andy,

We (Mopar) are running the same type technology now but we will see where it goes now that the innovators of it are no longer in full charge. But they have initiated the use of the technology. A good start. The Liberty diesel didn't do well so I question the push to create another smaller vehicle.

Mopar is still pushing the hybrid Durango/Aspen. I believe GM is doing the same with the Tahoe. I see a few of them around here now. Even with the hybrid 5.7L hemi gas mileage will be 18mpg city and 23mpg highway.

However most new systems that I know of will not support the use of bio fuels. With the price of injectors and pumps I doubt the public would take the risk.

As far as methane, I meant as something potentialy helpfull (green) from waste. Not just fartin around in a car.

I can see True in a X5 xDrive35d. Best of both worlds.




Yeah, no bio-diesel in these engines. It is supposed to cause serious damage to components that I'm sure will result in very expensive rerpairs, especially with the price of German parts.

I just don't see Americans jumping on the diesel bandwagon. Maybe it is their bad reputation (smell, smoke, poor performance), I'm not sure. Only time will tell. The Liberty diesel doing poorly in sales does not surprise me. I just don't think it appeals to enough of the population.

I guess I would take a diesel over a hybrid if given the choice. I know the 330i and 330D cars offered similar performance, which is impressive. Of course, the deisel is not going to offer that sweet BMW inline 6 growl or high revs. The torque may make up for that.

I'll be sure to let everyone know what I think of these things when they show up off the boat.

Andy

[tellyv]

hey damn true you do some math equations and I'll go work on some cars so I can pay for my diesel fuel and bush and cheney's retirement fund.

[TonyL]

I think Tellyv is talking more about the "under the table" kind of payoffs the oil companies give our government officials. Like campaign contributions and funds, and countless other sly ways they help each other out.

His point is simply the profit margin is HIGHER on the production of gasoline. It's as simple as that. If they switched to diesel they'd lose money. Everyone would lose money. (except the consumer of course, and who'd want that?)

It just goes to show that the powers that be don't give a damn about you, or the environment. They want you to spend. SPEND.

[tellyv]

right on bro!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think Tellyv is talking more about the "under the table" kind of payoffs the oil companies give our government officials. Like campaign contributions and funds, and countless other sly ways they help each other out.

His point is simply the profit margin is HIGHER on the production of gasoline. It's as simple as that. If they switched to diesel they'd lose money. Everyone would lose money. (except the consumer of course, and who'd want that?)

It just goes to show that the powers that be don't give a damn about you, or the environment. They want you to spend. SPEND.

[GetMore]

Let's see, my .02:
I believe the Mercedes Blutech (sp?) system uses urea injection.
Urea is used to reduce NOx emissions and does not hamper performance. As a matter of fact, the engine can be tuned for more performance since the added NOx will be removed by the urea aftertreatment.
Soot is removed by the Diesel Particulate Filters. This means no more smoke. Now only gas engines will smoke! (When you give a gasser enough throttle that it runs rich it can smoke.)
Driving is enough to clean DPFs most of the time.

FWIW, the Ford and GM pickups have lost fuel efficiency from the new emissions equipment. They also made a decent jump in power at the same time, so they have two things working against them. Dodge on the other hand has more power and the same or better fuel economy. They increased displacement to 6.7 from 5.9L and don't require any special emissions equipment to meet the new emissions regulations.

Something about the BMWs: I know that I don't really know anything, but I will be very surprised to hear that there will be a fluid that must be topped off at every service. The EPA does not like that idea, they want the system to be good for at least 100K miles without service. That's one of the things that have been keeping new diesels from being sold here. The EPA will not allow a system to be used that will become ineffective before 100K miles, even if the cause is that the owner neglects maintenance.

[streetk14]

Something about the BMWs: I know that I don't really know anything, but I will be very surprised to hear that there will be a fluid that must be topped off at every service. The EPA does not like that idea, they want the system to be good for at least 100K miles without service. That's one of the things that have been keeping new diesels from being sold here. The EPA will not allow a system to be used that will become ineffective before 100K miles, even if the cause is that the owner neglects maintenance.



I'm a BMW master tech and the info about the NOx reducing agent was directly from one of their technical training videos that was recently released to prepare us for the new classroom training session that I should be going to soon. So the info is legit and I guess the EPA is ok with the system working that way.

BMW does include 4 year/50,000 maintenance on all it's new cars that covers everything but tires. I wonder if the diesels will come with extended maintenance to cover this for 100k. The emissions system doesn't really require any "service", as it's not any harder than topping off the washer fluid. I'm sure there will be an impossible-to-miss warning light/loud gong sound if that fluid goes low, but people will still neglect it like everything else (tire pressures, etc.).

Andy

[megaladon6]

from what i heard about the bmw system when it runs out of urea agent it will trigger the CEL. i believe it does also have a low level warning. VW and Me/Be are using the same concept (they're all called blu-something). i know they've been having some issues with the 100k period but i'm sure that the top-off will be "free"if you get your oil changes at the dealer. they will have to have something to cover it if you go somewhere else though.

the problem with the new trucks and bio-diesel is not so much the engine, it's the lines and seals. much like e85, the biodiesel will eat away at certain rubber compounds.

as to the popularity of diesels, if the companies advertised what they can do and how good, and quiet, they are to the general public they way the hybrids have been, you'd see a major change. think about how crappy the hybrids are and how they DO NOT deliver anywhere near the MPG they advertise. why do people buy them? they see the "propaganda" and celebrities with them constantly. the press doesn't tell you how they only last 5 years and the batteries are an environmental disaster. or how the engine can start up during an oil change without a key. or how they have just stopped working, then when the tow driver comes to pick it up the engine starts with the trans somehow in gear and runs him over.

[MonzaRacer]

The big reason id emissions. While Blutech helps it does require some maintenance or it doesnt work. also over thiere they dont have mileage resdtrictions on the car makers like we do and even though some help the standards in US CAFE rates diesels in small cars different.
Legislation is in the works to help and look for a new small import diesel coming to US soon.

[Damn True]

I think Tellyv is talking more about the "under the table" kind of payoffs the oil companies give our government officials. Like campaign contributions and funds, and countless other sly ways they help each other out. Lobbying. Well, those "means" however smarmy are commonly used and available to anyone, on any side of the issue. That said, I fail to see how they might have benefited from this if in fact it has happened. 30 years ago we imported on 18% of the crude used in this country and we refined ALL of our gasoline here. Currently we import over 60% of our crude and nearly 20% of the gasoline we consume is imported already refined. This is a FAR more expensive proposition. So if the oil companies had the Govt in their pockets as some claim, why have we not built a refinery in this country in over 30 years. If we had greater refining capacity, the oil companies costs would drop exponentially and their margins would increase. How have the oil companies benefited from this so called graft? Where is the huge boon that the oil companies are supposed to have gotten by virtue of the [moveon.org]OH NOEZ!!!! BUSH - CHENEY - HALLIBURTON!!!!!!!!![/moveon.org] Remember, Exxon pulled only a 9.1% profit in Q4 of last year. That does not take into account inflation which is hovering around 4% so by the Q4 2008 those profits will be worth significantly less. And one cant forget that the majority of the oil companies investments are overseas so it costs them $0.57 on the dollar to invest in Europe, and nearly $0.70 on the dollar in Saudi Arabia. CAD trades better and the Mexican Peso trades worse the weighted average exchange is roughly a wash. So they are by no means getting a break doing things overseas.


His point is simply the profit margin is HIGHER on the production of gasoline. It's as simple as that. If they switched to diesel they'd lose money. Everyone would lose money. (except the consumer of course, and who'd want that?)

No. It actually isn’t. Gasoline requires more steps of refining than diesel does and it is made from a more expensive raw material. Light-sweet crude vs any old cheap stuff like PA crude or Bakersfield crude that can easily be made into diesel and at much higher yields. Which is more expensive per pound, Corn meal or corn flakes? Same with diesel vs gasoline. It's more expensive to make and transport gasoline therefore the margins per gallon are less. Furthermore, as above, nearly 20% of the gas we use comes into the country already refined. Again, far more expensive. The ships used for this are more expensive, the transfer equipment is more expensive, docking & port entry fees are greater, transferring is more dangerous so you have to pay the companies that do it more, the insurance costs are greater etc etc.


It just goes to show that the powers that be don't give a damn about you, or the environment. They want you to spend. SPEND.

This I cannot disagree with. But the blatant classist rhetoric is just wrong on so many levels that I can't help but say something. Just stamping ones feet and blaming their plight on those mean ol rich people is a FAIL. It
a) vastly oversimplifies the issues on every level and makes people look petty, a bit silly and jealous
b) it gets us nowhere in regard to understanding the issue at hand
c) it gets us nowhere in regard to a solution.

There are some simple and widely available facts that explain the whole thing. They don't discuss this on TV, I'll leave it to others to discuss why but one has to look further than what some talking head on the news or on a political stump says:

The top 5 oil companies in the world are:
1. Saudi Aramco
2. National Iranian Oil Company
3. PeMEX (mexico)
4. Citgo (Venezuela)
5. Exxon/Mobil (United States)

There is only one US company even in the top 5. Exxon/Mobil produces about 90% LESS oil than Saudi Aramco and holds only a 3% GLOBAL market share.

The reason your gas prices are high and getting higher is that there are over 3000 more cars on US roads every day and there are over 500 times more vehicles on the road in China than there was just 3 years ago. The demand is up, the supply is largely stagnant. You want to be pissed at someone and I understand that. But don't be pissed at the oil companies; be pissed at those who prevent US oil companies from exploring and producing oil on our shores.

There has not been a refinery or Nuke plant built in the US in over 30 years. More nukes would mean less oil used to create electricity and more available for motor-fuel. More refineries would lower the oil companies’ costs and allow them to increase production and therefore supply.

Simple supply-side economics. All of which is sadly lost on those who think like:


hey damn true you do some math equations and I'll go work on some cars so I can pay for my diesel fuel and bush and cheney's retirement fund.

Way to contribute to the conversation! BRAVO!

If you don't want to learn, that’s fine. You go sand someone else’s fender. Run along while the big people talk.

[JEFFTATE]

Found it
http://jalopnik.com/347346/2010-45l-duramax-diesel-has-shockingly-brilliant-design

That's it !

[derekf]

A reminder: Political discussions are not permitted on Pro-Touring.com (see the forum rules). Many posts in this thread are close to (if a bit on the wrong side of) that line.

[Damn True]

Interesting contrast.

I'm sure most of you heard that GE missed their Q1 earnings estimate by 6% which sent the Dow reeling a bit late last week. Mostly due to morons buying homes they can't afford (GE - financial) and reduced housing starts as a result of the above (GE - appliance division) They pulled a 13% profit in Q1.

If a 13% profit against 4%+ inflation is bad news how can you call a 9.1% profit a windfall?

Case closed. Can we get back to discussing the cars now?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4237945.html?page=1

[EFI69Cam]

A reminder: Political discussions are not permitted on Pro-Touring.com (see the forum rules). Many posts in this thread are close to (if a bit on the wrong side of) that line.

Personally I think there should be room for civil non-partisan discussions about issues that relate to our hobbies.

Like it or not our hobby is quite politicized. Junker and emissions laws, CAFE all of it affects us in a big way.

just a thought.

[MrQuick]

Personally I think there should be room for civil non-partisan discussions about issues that relate to our hobbies.

Like it or not our hobby is quite politicized. Junker and emissions laws, CAFE all of it affects us in a big way.

just a thought. nope, tried that. Theres a place for it, just not here. Theres always some a hole that screws up that civil part.

Back to Damn getting a diesel. I wonder what GM will put that 4.5L in?? I think for now you are stuck with an 80's rabbit or even better a 80's Nissan pick up then run it on jet-a.

[Damn True]

The GM engine seems like it may be overkill for a light truck.

I'd love to have something about the size of my Subaru outback with a 1.8 tdi in it or an F-150 with a 3l tdi.

[KWIKND]

29mpg Hwy for 2008 (apples) Jetta = 517 gallons of gas = $1722
42mpg Hwy for 2006 (oranges) TDI Jetta = 357 gallons of diesel = $1414

While I am totally pro diesel, everything changed for diesel engines in 2007 and they will again in 2010. I would say the 2007 MPG numbers have dropped from 06' to 07' due to the new EPA requirements, and will again in 10'.

[megaladon6]

I'd love to have something about the size of my Subaru outback with a 1.8 tdi in it

97 or newer passat tdi wagon sound good? no all-wheel drive in the US yet but...

are you sure that 42mpg is highway for the vw tdi? my 97 gets 49mpg at 76mph but just over 60mpg if i could drive at 60mph. 42 sounds like city or mixed/backroads.
oh, and the epa changed the way they test MPG, so every car just dropped. it's supposed to be more realistic now.

[paul67]

Quick change being as gas prices are mentioned what about lpg,over here in the uk we pay@ $2 a litre where as I only pay about 95cents a litre for lpg due to taxes so I get about money wise about 25 mpg uk to the gallon,convertion cost $2500 recovered cost in 4 months,this is on a 2003 ,4,7 dodge ram 4x4 crew cab .Looking to convert my 1st gen camaro.

[Damn True]

LPG averages about $2.10 and CNG is about $1.65.

I know Honda offers a CNG powered civic. I have no idea what kind of economy they offer.

[shep]

For the commuter crowd a diesel electric hybrid would be great. I would buy something like the prius just not as ugly if it had a diesel and didn't cost my first born. Since I drive 60 miles round trip on the highway to work a gas electric hybrid just doesn't make sense.

[Beige]

I'd love to have something about the size of my Subaru outback with a 1.8 tdi in it or an F-150 with a 3l tdi.

How about a Subaru Outback with a 2L TDI?

[68Formula]

Someone mentioned methane. Now if we could run then engines off of that it'd only cost me a can of beans to get to work.

[Damn True]

For the commuter crowd a diesel electric hybrid would be great. I would buy something like the prius just not as ugly if it had a diesel and didn't cost my first born. Since I drive 60 miles round trip on the highway to work a gas electric hybrid just doesn't make sense.

Ive often wondered why that does not exist. I mean, diesel-electric has worked for years in trains, ships, heavy equipment and submarines. With current technology it seems to me that a small diesel engine hooked to a big honkin generator would be fantastic in something like a 3/4 or 1ton pickup or suburban with an electric motor / transaxle.

[Damn True]

How about a Subaru Outback with a 2L TDI?

If Subaru makes one I'll buy it. I love my Subaru.

[XLexusTech]

I have a slightly modified (Vanectomy Egr Mod) 2003 TDI Jetta.
I commute 100 miles per day 99% Highway. I average between 49 and 52 MPG. When I bought the car in 03 Diesel in the NE was 1.75 Per gallon. Yesterday I paid 4.22 cents. ... trying to make the best of a bad situation. But it sucks!... To make matters wors most of the homes in my area use Oil for heat... Keeps the demand high and supports the elevated prices.

I know we not supposed to discuss off topic but I just want to throw this out there for folks to think about..... We can help the Obesity and fuel issues in the US in one swipe. By changing the subsidies provided to Farms to produce Corn that General Mills uses to pump High fructose Corn syrup into everything. Tie those subsidies to the production of Bio fuel instead of snacks that make us Fat.
Its not the fianl answer but its a decent start...

[Damn True]

Another spike in the corn coffin:


Global warming rage lets global hunger grow

We drive, they starve. The mass diversion of the North American grain harvest into ethanol plants for fuel is reaching its political and moral limits.


A demonstrator eats grass in front of a U.N. peacekeeping soldier during a protest against the high cost of living in Port-au-Prince


"The reality is that people are dying already," said Jacques Diouf, of the UN's Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO). "Naturally people won't be sitting dying of starvation, they will react," he said.

The UN says it takes 232kg of corn to fill a 50-litre car tank with ethanol. That is enough to feed a child for a year. Last week, the UN predicted "massacres" unless the biofuel policy is halted.

We are all part of this drama whether we fill up with petrol or ethanol. The substitution effect across global markets makes the two morally identical.

Mr Diouf says world grain stocks have fallen to a quarter-century low of 5m tonnes, rations for eight to 12 weeks. America - the world's food superpower - will divert 18pc of its grain output for ethanol this year, chiefly to break dependency on oil imports. It has a 45pc biofuel target for corn by 2015.

Argentina, Canada, and Eastern Europe are joining the race.

The EU has targeted a 5.75pc biofuel share by 2010, though that may change. Europe's farm ministers are to debate a measure this week ensuring "absolute priority" for food output.

"The world food situation is very serious: we have seen riots in Egypt, Cameroon, Haiti and Burkina Faso," said Mr Diouf. "There is a risk that this unrest will spread in countries where 50pc to 60pc of income goes to food," he said.

Haiti's government fell over the weekend following rice and bean riots. Five died.

The global food bill has risen 57pc in the last year. Soaring freight rates make it worse. The cost of food "on the table" has jumped by 74pc in poor countries that rely on imports, according to the FAO.

Roughly 100m people are tipping over the survival line. The import ratio for grains is: Eritrea (88pc), Sierra Leone (85pc), Niger (81pc), Liberia (75pc), Botswana (72pc), Haiti (67pc), and Bangladesh (65pc).

This Malthusian crunch has been building for a long time. We are adding 73m mouths a year. The global population will grow from 6.5bn to 9.5bn before peaking near mid-century.

Asia's bourgeoisie is switching to an animal-based diet. If they follow the Japanese, protein-intake will rise by nine times. It takes 8.3 grams of corn feed to produce a 1g of beef, or 3.1g for pork.

China's meat demand has risen to 50kg per capita from 20kg in 1980, but this has been gradual. The FAO insists that this dietary shift is "not the cause of the sudden food price spike that began in 2005".

Hedge funds played their part in the violent rise in spot prices early this year. To that extent they can be held responsible for the death of African and Asian children. Tougher margin rules on the commodity exchanges might have stopped the racket. Capitalism must police itself, or be policed.

Even so, the funds closed their killer "long" trades in early March, causing a brief 20pc mini-crash in grains. The speculators are now neutral on the COMEX casino in New York.

What about the California state retirement fund (Calpers), the Norwegian Petroleum fund, the Dutch pension giants, et al, pushing a wall of money into the $200bn commodity index funds?

They have undoubtedly bid up the futures contracts, but the FAO says this has no durable effect on food prices. These index funds never take delivery of grains. All they do is distort the shape of the maturities curve years ahead, allowing farmers to lock in eye-watering prices. That should cause more planting.

Is there any more land? Yes, in Russia, Ukraine, and Kazakhstan, where acreage planted has fallen 12pc since Soviet days. Existing grain yields are 2.4 tonnes per hectare in Ukraine, 1.8 in Russia, and 1.11 in Kazakhstan, com-pared with 6.39 in the US. Investment would do wonders here. But the structure is chaotic.

Brazil has the world's biggest reserves of "potential arable land" with 483m hectares (it currently cultivates 67m), and Colombia has 62m - both offering biannual harvests.

The catch is obvious. "The idea that you cut down rainforest to actually grow biofuels seems profoundly stupid," said Professor John Beddington, Britain's chief scientific adviser.

Goldman Sachs says the cost of ethanol from corn is $81 a barrel (oil equivalent), with wheat at $145 and soybeans $232. It is built on subsidy.

New technology may open the way for the use of non-edible grain stalks to make ethanol, but for now the only biofuel crop that genuinely pays its way is sugar cane ($35). Sugar is carbohydrate: ideal for fuel. Grains contain proteins made of nitrogen: useless for fuel, but vital for people.

Whatever the arguments, politics is intruding. Food export controls have been imposed by Russia, China, India, Vietnam, Argentina, and Serbia. We are disturbingly close to a chain reaction that could shatter our assumptions about food security.

The Philippines - a country with ample foreign reserves of $36bn (Britain has $27bn) - last week had to enlist its embassies to hunt for grain supplies after China withheld shipments. Washington stepped in, pledging "absolutely" to cover Philippine grain needs. A new Cold War is taking shape, around energy and food.

The world intelligentsia has been asleep at the wheel. While we rage over global warming, global hunger has swept in under the radar screen.


I love it when "The law of unintended consequences" provides the obvious result.

Can we now move on from this silly e85 experiment?

[Beige]

If Subaru makes one I'll buy it. I love my Subaru.

They make one now.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/112_0801_subaru_boxer_turbodiesel_first_drive/

It's rumored to come to the US in 2 years. They need to work on it a little more before it passes
emissions standards.

[Damn True]

I'll be darned?!?! I had no idea.

If Ford or GM does not offer a suitable alternative when that thing hit's US dealers I'll almost certainly buy one.

[BRIAN]

As long as we are buying Diesel from the same place that sells Gas the costs to run each will be quite close. Diesels are usually a little more expensive initially and then there are some maintanence issues.

Do you think the station selling gas for $3.45 is going lose cash and sell the diesel for an amount that will work out to be a huge savings miles to gallon cost???


Used to be well worth it when the cost per gallon was cheap but the retailers are getting smart.

[Damn True]

Gas & diesel are two different commodity markets. Both impacted by their own, and the others demand and supply.

What you are suggesting would be price fixing. Fuel retailers are accused of it all the time. The DOC investigates it to death and rarely if ever do they find someone actually doing it.

[XLexusTech]

The federal tax on Diesel is roughly 40% more then Gas...Riddle me that Bat man :-)

[Damn True]

That I did not know!

WOW!

[XLexusTech]

Yeah just saw it on the news I guess Mccain is trying to get the Tax repealled for Memorial day weekend.

[Damn True]

I posted this in another thread but:


In the last 3 years the top three US oil companies have pulled well in excess of $300B in profit. I have no problem with that, I own stock in all three and I shudder at the day when we as a country decide that profit is a bad thing. (Just ask anyone who lived in Italy from about 1930-1943)

But, in that same 3 year span the state and federal Govt. has collected in excess of $3.5 TRILLION in taxes on the aforementioned fuel sales.

[tellyv]

If you don't want to learn, that’s fine. You go sand someone else’s fender. Run along while the big people talk

you have way too much time on your hands maybe you should go sand on a fender, and if you think these little insults are cool you should grow up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's nothing about learning it's about saying what you think or feel if you dont like it tell me without insulting me I do live in the u.s I'm intitled to my say. see ya damn true

[fun2gofast]

I believe the redesigned Saturn Aura and one of the Cadillacs is suppose to be available with a diesel when they come out next year.

[harshman]

tellyv,

Opinions – yup, everyone’s got one. True’s is based in logic and facts that’s all. Don't get all bent out of shape. You believe what you wish and see where it takes you.

[tellyv]

sure, I do agree but facts and stuff you read are great but things in this country need to be changed otherwise were all in for some bad times, of coarse I dont have any proof that our politicians are taking money from big buisness or oil companies, it might not be happening maybe there buying them hookers, or drugs (ha, ha) because we know there all a bunch of saints, maybe I should have written in my first post that the gov. needs to help out there the only ones that can stop the oil companies from making all this money on us when the country is in a very bad state, you all know it effects everything groceries, parts, etc. They need to help out.

I was also in my first post talking about the diesel trucks and what I was meaning is that with the emissiions and low sulfer fuel these trucks are at least getting 5% worse fuel economy so wont the same happen to the smaller cars and trucks? with the initial cost being more and fuel costing more will it equal out to be a better than gas?
I don't want to fight with anyone I'm on these websites to talk to people I have things in common with and look at cool cars but I don't want to be insulted, damn trues first respond didnt have to be insulting if he wants to talk or critisize thats fine but dont insult me.
I apologize for saying anything bad or derogatory I dont wish anybody anything bad It was just my 2 cents thats all, you too damn true.

tellyv,

Opinions – yup, everyone’s got one. True’s is based in logic and facts that’s all. Don't get all bent out of shape. You believe what you wish and see where it takes you.

[Damn True]

sure, I do agree but facts and stuff you read are great but things in this country need to be changed otherwise were all in for some bad times,

Changed? Changed how? To what? What is your proposal?

I illustrated for you the obstacles that the oil companies face in doing their business. They are operating on a manufacturing capacity model that was inadequate 30 years ago. In 1978 there were 246M cars on the road in the US. 30 years X 3000 new cars on the road every day = 278M cars on the road in the US today. That's over 32 million more cars and the oil companies have exactly the same refining capacity as they did 30 years ago. Add in the 500x increase in cars on Chinese roads and the math starts to get a little tough.

A huge increase in demand, with a minimal increase in supply. Prices go up. It's that simple. There's no mystery here.


of coarse I dont have any proof that our politicians are taking money from big buisness or oil companies, it might not be happening maybe there buying them hookers, or drugs (ha, ha) because we know there all a bunch of saints, maybe I should have written in my first post that the gov. needs to help out there the only ones that can stop the oil companies from making all this money on us when the country is in a very bad state, you all know it effects everything groceries, parts, etc. They need to help out.

I don't know how old you are so you may not have the perspective to understand this but Government intervention in an economy has never and will never work. Give me an example of a country where the Government regulates P&L sheets and I will show you a failed Marxist regime. Ask the dude who owns your shop if he would like to have the county restrict him to a 10% profit. The people who run the oil companies have a single mandate. Earn a profit. That is what they are doing. That is what your boss is doing. Ask your boss how long his business will survive on a 9% profit against 4.5% inflation. If he can't answer the question, you need a new boss. Exxon earned a 9.1% profit in Q4 of last year. That is chump change. Yes that 9.1% is over $10 billion dollars, but in order to earn that they spent $106 Billion dollars in just 3 months. The answer to the problem is to allow the free market to be free. Allow the oil companies to expand their refining capacity and their costs will drop. If their costs drop the price of gas will drop as well. Again, simple stuff here.

Milk costs more than it did two years ago. Do you know why? Because feed corn prices have gone up. So it costs dairymen more to feed their cattle. They need to recover that expense so they raise the price of milk. Construction costs more than it did two years ago. Do you know why? Because the price of lumber and steel have gone up due to massive growth in China. Building contractors need to recover the additional expense so they raise the price per square foot of construction. The construction cost for the house I just built was $530,000.00 Two years ago it would have been 18% less.

Now, read the paragraph above again. Now read it a third time. Then ask yourself the following question:
"What happens if the Government levies additional taxes (taxes are an expense) against the oil companies?"


Answer: They pass on the expense in the form of higher prices.


I was also in my first post talking about the diesel trucks and what I was meaning is that with the emissiions and low sulfer fuel these trucks are at least getting 5% worse fuel economy so wont the same happen to the smaller cars and trucks? with the initial cost being more and fuel costing more will it equal out to be a better than gas?

...and I posted some pretty simple figures that show that certain tdi vehicles do in fact have a lower TCO than their gas burning counterparts.


I don't want to fight with anyone I'm on these websites to talk to people I have things in common with and look at cool cars but I don't want to be insulted, damn trues first respond didnt have to be insulting if he wants to talk or critisize thats fine but dont insult me.
I apologize for saying anything bad or derogatory I dont wish anybody anything bad It was just my 2 cents thats all, you too damn true.

No harm, no foul. But here's the thing. Fewer and fewer people have the ability to or take the time to think critically about the world around them. The result of that is that it's possible to repeat a lie often enough for it to become truth. A perfect example of this is the movie "An inconvenient truth". It's absolutely full of misinformation, disinformation, wrong information, and outright lies. Yet it has for many become gospel. Some of the sentiments you are espousing are commonly held yet patently false.

The best way for us to "do something about this" is to educate each other about the situation and the potential solutions. That way we as a group can steer the marketplace without the intervention of the Government. History has proven this to be the most effective path.

[Damn True]

I believe the redesigned Saturn Aura and one of the Cadillacs is suppose to be available with a diesel when they come out next year.

I have read that. The Aura is supposed to be a damn nice car. If i'm not mistaken it is the same car as the GM-Europe Opel Astra which I think has won the European car of the year a number of times.

After driving that diesel powered Bimmer 5-series I'm pretty sold on the idea of a luxury sedan with diesel power. Torque on tap is never a bad thing.

A sedan really does not meet my needs as a daily driver though. Hence my affinity for the Subaru. Car comfort, car handling, car economy, all wheel drive and small SUV room on the inside.

[XLexusTech]

Changed? Changed how? To what? What is your proposal?

I illustrated for you the obstacles that the oil companies face in doing their business. They are operating on a manufacturing capacity model that was inadequate 30 years ago. In 1978 there were 246M cars on the road in the US. 30 years X 3000 new cars on the road every day = 278M cars on the road in the US today. That's over 32 million more cars and the oil companies have exactly the same refining capacity as they did 30 years ago. Add in the 500x increase in cars on Chinese roads and the math starts to get a little tough.

A huge increase in demand, with a minimal increase in supply. Prices go up. It's that simple. There's no mystery here.
.


DT thinks for the insightful info I for one have learned allot. Specifially I had no Idea that if the US were to go more toword a Bio fuel the effect on the world food supply would suffer as bad.
I did hear somehting about a sythetic Alge or something that could be used. But it was mentioned in passing by someone. I would like to understand more about the quote abbove. It is simple economics and the law of supply and demand are defiantly a huge factor. However can that logic alone explain the exponential price increase in the last 3 to 5 years? The demand certainly didn't sneak up on us but the prices and Profits sure did.....:usa:

[tellyv]

Your very smart and have alot of knowledge I dont want to fight and you bring up very good points, I dont look into everything like you do I hear it on the news and so forth that these oil companies are making records amounts of money maybe our news stations should fill in more of the blanks. I own the shop here were mostely a collision repair shop or at least thats what pays the bills and it seems like everything is ran by big buisness is screwing the public the insurance companies tell us how much were can charge for labor, pricing on parts, and paint and materials, as you know the price of oil goes up so does paint, we try to raise our material rates and we get told you only get paid what we tell you, so I'm a little pissed I cant even break even on my material bill so I surely know how it feels to be running a couple years behind of where were should be, and theres were I get mad about out gov. Ive written to my congressman and never hear more than he will certainly look into this. Thanks alot for the help congressman.
Also and I dont know all the stats and I'm sorry I didnt read everything people said about ethanol, but theres another reason why are food prices are up and I'm sure you know that our gov. is behind these plants that are doing more harm than good, it take alot of enegy to make and its hurting the land and feed is alot more money so our meat prices are going to keep rising, there trying to make a quick fix that is going to hurt use more in the long run. I dont know all the stats and I certainly dont know how to fix the state of our economy or the fuel issue I just thought if our gov. cant help who will. sorry about all this drool in a diesel forum I will stop now!!!!

[harshman]

The simple truth is that there is a ton of oil in our own backyard. If we would stop listening to the environmentalists and start drilling more and build a bunch of refineries then there would be many effects.

1) We would lose the foreign influence (and for the record, our largest supplier of oil is Canada).
2) We would create massive amounts of high paying jobs.
3) The price would drop because of increased supply.

The problem here is when you give a small group an ear and power, things go bad quickly. It is in the oil company’s best interest to keep the environment healthy and if you let capitalism work, the environment will benefit. Stop thinking passionately and start using logic. There is no demand for alternative fuels – currently it is only created by the media and government. If there was a true demand then real alternative fuels would be found by creative people by the demand to do so. Oil is plentiful – this is a fact.

[Beige]

[COLOR=black]
...and I posted some pretty simple figures that show that certain tdi vehicles do in fact have a lower TCO than their gas burning counterparts.

That you did not do.
You posted simple figures showing that fuel costs were lower.
You didn't even compare initial purchase price.

[MrQuick]

The simple truth is that there is a ton of oil in our own backyard. If we would stop listening to the environmentalists and start drilling more and build a bunch of refineries then there would be many effects.

1) We would lose the foreign influence (and for the record, our largest supplier of oil is Canada).
2) We would create massive amounts of high paying jobs.
3) The price would drop because of increased supply.

The problem here is when you give a small group an ear and power, things go bad quickly. It is in the oil company’s best interest to keep the environment healthy and if you let capitalism work, the environment will benefit. Stop thinking passionately and start using logic. There is no demand for alternative fuels – currently it is only created by the media and government. If there was a true demand then real alternative fuels would be found by creative people by the demand to do so. Oil is plentiful – this is a fact. I agree, I think the oil rigs off the coast of Santa Barbara look pretty at night. BUT its just more oil we will ship to China....oh, i'll leave now.

Added fact...even if we drill more all over the US, oil is still going to be $100+ a barrel for the simple fact that we will just increase demand. Don't look for any reverse in oil cost any time soon. How much of that US oil do you think will stay inhouse? Its a global market money maker.

Being self reliant and more resourceful is the key.
http://www.worldalmanac.com/blog/2008/01/world_oil_reserves_and_consumption.html

[harshman]

Cute.

[68Formula]

That you did not do.
You posted simple figures showing that fuel costs were lower.
You didn't even compare initial purchase price.

Where is your math then? At least he put some figures out there. If you're going to criticize at least back it up with some figures of your own.

[Beige]

Ever wonder why Canada sells us so much oil when their gas prices are higher than ours?

[Beige]

Where is your math then? At least he put some figures out there. If you're going to criticize at least back it up with some figures of your own.
I didn't claim to provide total cost of ownership numbers.

[Tony_SS]

However can that logic alone explain the exponential price increase in the last 3 to 5 years? The demand certainly didn't sneak up on us but the prices and Profits sure did.....:usa:

Good question. Not trying to get political here, But you wouldn't think the military operations in Iraq would drive up demand and prices that much in the last 5 years... But maybe so?

[nicks67camaro]

My question is if the oil industry knows that the consumer is willing pay $95.00+/barrel for light sweet crude what incentive do they have to bring the price back down? If I was selling a product and I knew a consumer market was will to pay more it makes good business sense to keep prices elevated. Its kinda like the old ford production line speed up the line until everone freaks out then back it off a little....

[harshman]

take economics 101

[megaladon6]

mil ops will suck up HUGE quantities of diesel like fuel. trucks, turbine powered tanks, HUMMVEE's, airplane, helo's, non nuc ships... but they have a strategic reserve for that and the prices shot up WAY too quick. call it a pre-emptive attack/price gouging.

[nicks67camaro]

I took econimics... I don't remember where it went into the detail of an oil driven economy.

[Damn True]

Good question. Not trying to get political here, But you wouldn't think the military operations in Iraq would drive up demand and prices that much in the last 5 years... But maybe so?

Not a chance. We are using a lot of oil in Iraq and Afghanistan. But it is a drop in the proverbial bucket compared to the demand that has cropped up in China over the last 5-7 years. Their vehichle fleet increased by over 500x between 2005 and 2007 alone. That figure is predicted to grow to over 700x from 2008-2010. Combine that with their vastly increased demand for energy and it isn't difficult to see how the global increase in demand for oil has outstripped even the US's historically ravenous rate of consumption and growth.

That does not take into account other nations with rapidly growing economies including but not limited to; Former Soviet Union (highest rate of personal wealth growth in the world) and India. South America is experiencing unprecedented levels of industrial growth as well.

[6'9"Witha69]

Good points DT. Indian outsourcing firms are opening shop in Brazil and other South American areas. China is industrializing so fast that there are protests about even havin ghte olympics there due to the air pollution. Apparently China will mandate that NO ONE around the city can drive for 2 days before the marathon starts and throughout the duration. China is also the biggest reason that metal prices are through the roof. Combine that with a weakened dollar and voila!

[Bow Tie 67]

I can't stand politics let alone following it all. ( not that I'm calling this all politics ) This is the world we live in and there is not a whole Hell of a lot I can do personally to change any of it, let alone leave a better situation for my daughters.

It's a wonderfull world we live in.

On that note, this thread did get me looking at diesels.

Disclamer: please excuse any and all spelling and grammer errors.


Not a chance. We are using a lot of oil in Iraq and Afghanistan. But it is a drop in the proverbial bucket compared to the demand that has cropped up in China over the last 5-7 years. Their vehichle fleet increased by over 500x between 2005 and 2007 alone. That figure is predicted to grow to over 700x from 2008-2010. Combine that with their vastly increased demand for energy and it isn't difficult to see how the global increase in demand for oil has outstripped even the US's historically ravenous rate of consumption and growth.

That does not take into account other nations with rapidly growing economies including but not limited to; Former Soviet Union (highest rate of personal wealth growth in the world) and India. South America is experiencing unprecedented levels of industrial growth as well.

[MarkM66]

My question is if the oil industry knows that the consumer is willing pay $95.00+/barrel for light sweet crude what incentive do they have to bring the price back down? If I was selling a product and I knew a consumer market was will to pay more it makes good business sense to keep prices elevated. Its kinda like the old ford production line speed up the line until everone freaks out then back it off a little....

Not so much willing, we have no choice in the matter.

[nicks67camaro]

I agree we are at their mercy the cost to heat my house this year was $600 more than last year and I used ~100 gallons less! but do we continue to allow the consumer to set the price based on demand/supply? Also if the US dollar continues to weaken and forgien contries/companies with a strong currency keep the price elevated do we have to wait for our economy to rebound to lessen the financial impact? BTW I love your Nova

[Damn True]

I agree we are at their mercy the cost to heat my house this year was $600 more than last year and I used ~100 gallons less! but do we continue to allow the consumer to set the price based on demand/supply?

Yes. Because the alternative to doing so is proven to be deleterious.

[79PonchoUK]

I dont know where you get your info, but diesels arent as wonderful as some of you make out.

They cost more to buy, the price of diesel is also higher.....50mpg v8? dream on.

I think some of you are quoting european/UK mpg figures too, which is an overestimate for the US considering the UK gallon is about 20% bigger than yours.

Diesels have come a long way, but your fuel prices still don't warrant the noise, narrow power band or the hassle of turbos....even if you do travel more miles than we do.


Even with our Gallons, the Nissan Navara 2.5td averages 20-30mpg.


If the US has a big push towards diesel, it's probably as much a novelty and marketing as it is through efficiency.

[Damn True]

Good points. I must admit that I did not know the UK gallon was larger. Compensating for something? I kid.

That said, in the case of my two Euro references (BMW 530d & Renault Megane Wagon) I did the conversion math from kilometers per litre to miles per US Gallon. The Bimmer got about 35-38 (gas version gets 20mpg) in mixed driving (though I didn't encounter any serious urban traffic) and the Renault knocked down a steady 43+mpg (gas versions get about 35 or so depending on which engine) in mixed driving in Tuscany, Umbria and Lombardy (mostly on the autostrada and at shall we say spirited speeds). At the time, the price of diesel was about cheaper than gasoline. Has that changed in Europe as it has in the US?


Subaru is claiming that their new 2.0 boxer diesel available in Europe now, US in 2010 will get 50mpg. Even if that is way off....say 40mpg? That is still far better than the 25-28 my current Subaru gas burner gets.

[GetMore]

I'm not sure how to verify this, but I've heard that most of the refineries in Europe are set up to produce gasoline, so they have more gasoline than they need, and sell us the extra.
This brings down our price for gas, but doesn't effect diesel/home heating oil.

Not sure if it's true or not though.

[79PonchoUK]

Our diesel is about 30 cents (equivalent) more expensive per litre. (about a dollar a gallon then).

Diesels are more expensive to buy too...usually by a couple of k.

They can produce the same sort of power as a petrol lump, often more torque.....but theyre still not the driving please a petrol/gas engine is. Not even close....although in my eyes 50% of what i dont like about them is turbo related and 50% the lack of rpm (which i can overcome on most cars)

[Damn True]

Far less expensive to upgrade from gas to diesel than gas to hybrid. About $2k vs $5k-$7k and you don't need a $10k battery replacement after 100,000 miles.

It is a paradigm shift to get used to driving one due to the narrow rev band, but we aren't talking about enthusiast cars here. Daily drivers are a different deal entirely.

[megaladon6]

narrow power band, noise, driveability huh have you driven a new(er) turbo direct injected diesel? the BMW 330td was driven vs the 330i by motor trend (maybe car and driver). they were driven the same day, same driver, same roads. the td got over 40mpg, did better passing (highway speed driving, no downshifting. just step on the gas and GO) and stopped, handled and performed right along side the gasser. it was also slightly quieter. the ONLY thing they didn't like as much is that the diesel wasn't as linear on the pedal.
or look at the f1 series races. the audi v12tdi is doing so well they have to put restrictions on them to try and level the field. and they have over 100hp less than the other cars. they're so quiet that the drivers can't tell what rpm it's at by ear.

[MrQuick]

Fine then, low powerband of a auto transportation diesel. Not a race car. Sound sure they are still louder than a gas engine. You can pick one out of a crowd. They are getting better. Old diesel engines used to make loud clanking and popping noises caused by the sudden, high-pressure ignition of fuel inside the engine. Gas engines ignite fuel under pressure, too, but the much greater pressures used in diesels resulted in a popping and banging noises.

New diesels create a more gentle increase in pressure by injecting small amounts of fuel into the cylinder even as the piston is rising. Those small ignitions aren't enough to push the piston back down, but they keep things warm and increase pressure slightly.

Then, when the piston reaches the top, a bigger push of fuel creates the big burst of energy that pushes the piston back down. Another series of smaller fuel injections then keep the piston moving down, easing decompression. The result is a gentler, quieter combustion cycle that eliminates most of the noise.

Soot reduction. This has been the real culprit keeping diesels out of the U.S. market. America's strict clean air rules simply couldn't be met.The extremely high temperatures and pressures inside diesel engines create nasty pollutants like nitrous oxides and so-called "diesel particulate matter." In order to get diesels to meet the same requirements as gas engines, car companies are now using a variety of emission cleaning technologies including filters and devices that release cleaning substances into the exhaust stream.

To make all this possible, gas stations that sell diesel fuel are now required to sell "ultra clean diesel" that has much less sulfur. Sulfur used to be included to help lubricate the engine, but its presence would have interfered with these new emissions-cleaning technologies. With that sulfur taken out, diesel exhaust can now be held to the same standards as gasoline exhaust. Closer but not same.

Source: CNN Money report.

[Damn True]

Dude I thought you were layin the straight-up tech on us. I was gonna stand and salute.


Then you dropped the CNN thing.

...still factual, just less cool.

[rocketman]

Well with diesel at 4 bucks per gal and gas at 3.30 who can afford to drive one

[megaladon6]

empire apples to granny smith apples: my 89 golf 1.8l gas engine got a best of 28mpg (once, usually 25mpg) mixed driving, 14gal tank, 392mi/tank, $46 to fill up now.
my 97 tdi with a consistent 49mpg on the exact same dive as the golf did, 14gal tank, 686mi/tank, $60 to fill up ($4.3/gal).
say 15000mi/year--golf-38.25 tanks,535gal, $1767 tdi-21.86tanks, 306.12gal, $1316
that's a $450 savings right there, no tune-ups=more savings, stronger built engine=less breakage=more money in your wallet.
just the fuel savings can pay for the extra cost to buy the engine in 4 years or so.

[MrQuick]

:hah: ...you drive a golf.

I know True, but if I claimed I wrote it, it would be assumed BS. But maybe I just put the CNN thing in there to make you think it was factual. ahhhhhaaaaa? :pat:

[go-fish]

I don't think I will ever get rid of my Jetta TDI. It makes too much sense to keep it. When it's paid for in about three months I will spend the $500 to get the ECM flashed and bump the power up to 130 hp and 210 lb/ft of torque. Better than the 90 hp I have now.

Percentage wise, how much more is diesel than gas. My diesel get's about 50-52 mpg. What does a comparabley sized 2003 gasser get, 25? Unless the price of diesel is 50% more it just isn't worth it to run out and get a gasser. So Rocketman, who can afford to switch to gas?

I don't think I would switch from gas to diesel now but until recently it was a smart move because I always enjoyed filling up for about 10-15 cents on the gallon cheaper than gassers.

Liabilty insurance, filters, diesel, and motor oil is all I will be putting into it now. It has never broke anything besides an A/C compressor in 200,000mi. and it goes 700+ mi. between fill-ups. Hmmmm. Who can afford to drive diesel?

[Damn True]

:hah: ...you drive a golf.

I know True, but if I claimed I wrote it, it would be assumed BS. But maybe I just put the CNN thing in there to make you think it was factual. ahhhhhaaaaa? :pat:

I'd be more inclined to believe it coming from a professional diesel tech (you) than from some knucklehead reporter in Atlanta.

[megaladon6]

:hah: ...you drive a golf.
yeah i know i know. but when you have no money you don't have too many choices. at least i made her handle extremely well.:) and i haven't driven the golf for a few years. once i got the jetta tdi that was it. i doubt i'd ever buy a gas car for a daily driver again. i'm just waiting for the v6 AWD passat in the US (and money).

[Tony_SS]

Not a chance. We are using a lot of oil in Iraq and Afghanistan. But it is a drop in the proverbial bucket compared to the demand that has cropped up in China over the last 5-7 years. Their vehichle fleet increased by over 500x between 2005 and 2007 alone. That figure is predicted to grow to over 700x from 2008-2010. Combine that with their vastly increased demand for energy and it isn't difficult to see how the global increase in demand for oil has outstripped even the US's historically ravenous rate of consumption and growth.

That does not take into account other nations with rapidly growing economies including but not limited to; Former Soviet Union (highest rate of personal wealth growth in the world) and India. South America is experiencing unprecedented levels of industrial growth as well.

I'm still not sure it's a supply issue. Crude is up as well, almost double from last year is it? Commodities such as wheat, rice and gold are also up. Consumers like to point the finger at the big oil companies but I'd wager to say it's the effect of the Feds over inflated dollar. Now back to the topic..

[Damn True]

Food commodities are up largely because of oil prices. It takes fuel to run tractors, and the trucks used for transfer and shipment.

Corn is a deal all it's own. It's prices are up purely due to demand because we continue down this stupid, STUPID E85 path.

[MrQuick]

yeah that plus the increase in the corn fuel industry lowered the wheat reserve so now the cost of flour is up 3 times what it cost just a year ago. Cause and effect. Alternative fuel is hampering my pizza intake.

[79PonchoUK]

Why do i never get 50mpg from diesels, yet manage 40mpg from a 2.8 litre v6 petrol lump?

And diesel engines are still flat - even the 330 isn't a patch on driving pleasure compared to the petrol version - I have driven both. lol

[Damn True]

The 530d that I drove was fantastic. It didn't have the "revvy-ness" that we have come to expect from a gas burner. But all that glorious torque on tap was pretty nice for passing and merging.

[megaladon6]

yeah that plus the increase in the corn fuel industry lowered the wheat reserve so now the cost of flour is up 3 times what it cost just a year ago. Cause and effect. Alternative fuel is hampering my pizza intake.

crap!! that means the price of bourbon is gonna go up too! now i'm pissed:lol:

[MrQuick]

crap!! that means the price of bourbon is gonna go up too! now i'm pissed:lol: yeah no hell, whats it now? $875-950 per gallon. LOL well.... I assume you like the good stuff. haaa haaa

[Damn True]

The Scotch I drink is about $300 a gallon.

Gas is CHEAP in contrast.

[Tony_SS]

True, just think, if you and everyone else drank 4 gallons of booze a day the price might come down.

[Damn True]

Not if the supply remained the same.

[Damn True]

Just as a point of ref. The company I work for just held it's Q1 earnings call. Our GM was up 17% from Q1 2007 and our profit was just a tick over 14%.

Again, I ask people to think critically about the profit numbers of the various oil companies.

Note: Exxon/Mobil had a 9.7% profit in the same period.

[MrQuick]

Just as a point of ref. The company I work for just held it's Q1 earnings call. Our GM was up 17% from Q1 2007 and our profit was just a tick over 14%.

Again, I ask people to think critically about the profit numbers of the various oil companies.

Note: Exxon/Mobil had a 9.7% profit in the same period.

Good point True. Its difficult for us (outsiders) to see the inside view of how it really works. We are fed info by the media and again its not a bad thing. At least we are attempting to paying attention. Just hard to keep things in prospective when media posted numbers appear to show signs of corruption.

[Tony_SS]

Are you getting kickbacks out there True? ;) When gas goes up .10 every other day I find it hard to ok with that. And how would they be ok with just a 9.7% profit increase? How honest is that 9.7 number and how much have they cooked their books? I'm not trying to be gloom and doom but I find hard to trust what a huge industry reports.

[derekf]

People's mindsets always amaze me. On one of the other boards I read, when the topic is the price of gas going up, it's Big Oil's fault. If the price is going down, it's price manipulation on Big Oil's part getting us all complacent so they can raise it higher. If ChevronTexaco invests in exploration in the Arctic or the Gulf, it's so they can make a bigger profit off the public. If ExxonMobil invests in a company that's making fuel cells, then it's so they can get a piece of that market too, but if they don't invest in a different fuel cell company it's because it would reduce demand for gas.

I once had a friend (no, really) who was an ExxonMobil employee, and he had this to say on this topic a couple of years back.. he said "Yeah, I hear it all the time with the profits and the gas prices. None of them get it though... the profits don't come from the gas or the oil or the refineries. They come from the convenience stores. Think about it, when was the last time you saw an Exxon that was a mom-and-pop shop... I bet it's been a while. They're all On The Run stores now. Any mom-and-pop that wouldn't sell out isn't an Exxon anymore, because there wasn't any money in it for us." (okay, that's the gist of what he said, it was years ago and I didn't write it down)

Was he right? No idea. But I do know that I haven't seen an Exxon without an On The Run convenience store since he said that to me.

[Damn True]

Are you getting kickbacks out there True? ;) When gas goes up .10 every other day I find it hard to ok with that. And how would they be ok with just a 9.7% profit increase? How honest is that 9.7 number and how much have they cooked their books? I'm not trying to be gloom and doom but I find hard to trust what a huge industry reports.

Do you think they are impervious to SEC oversight?

I'm just saying that a 9.7% profit is not all that much.

[80proZ]

Do you think they are impervious to SEC oversight?

I'm just saying that a 9.7% profit is not all that much.

As compared to what?A 9.7% increase on say 1.4 mil is only 135,800,but a 9.7% increase on say 50 mil is 4.85 mil which is quite abit.Now we're talking in the billions with oil companies.

[Damn True]

As compared to what?A 9.7% increase on say 1.4 mil is only 135,800,but a 9.7% increase on say 50 mil is 4.85 mil which is quite abit.Now we're talking in the billions with oil companies.

All I'm sayin is that in their case a 9.7% profit Q4-07 is $10.6B that is in fact a lot. But, their expense line was $105 BILLION.

A 9.7% profit against 4.5% inflation is not all that impressive. The company I work for pulled a 24% profit in the same period and nobody is suggesting extra taxes for us.

[Beige]

Buying back 7 billion of their stock probably ate into their earnings.
I have a feeling they'll make their money back, though.

[Damn True]

Their stock dropped quite a bit in Q1-08. They missed earnings estimates.

I think we are approaching what, as they say, the market will bear, in terms of price.

[jknight16]

Buying back stock does not reduce earnings at all, it simply consumes cash and is recognized on the financing portion of the cash flow statement, not on the income statement at all.

In fact, when you're looking at Earnings on a Per Share basis, as many on Wall St. do, buying back stock actually makes earnings appear larger, all else being equal.

[surlyjoe]

For starters this is a very interesting discussion. Excellent points Damntrue especially on e85. A plant was just completed a few miles from me and when I tell people it is a terrible idea they give me the deer in the headlights look.

One point for discussion. Does anyone doubt the amount of oil the middle east actually has in reserve? Saudi has been producing oil at 9-10 million barrels a day for over 20 years. That is over 60 billion barrels of oil. In that time there have been no huge discoveries yet their claimed reserves have increased.

I for one having worked in the middle east do not trust their claim that they can supply any oil required indefinitely. This does put a push on for alterate fuels. I wish I knew the answer because I would go develop that product. I do know e85 will turn out to be a disaster.

[rohrt]

Going back to the diesel thing.

Jay leno said in a artical several years ago that if amarican were really serious about saving gas we would all be driving diesels.

My understanding of it is it has a higher BTU count. and is esier to make at the refineries becase its a bigger carbon molecule.

I juest read about an new diesel Audi that got an average of 47 mpg with a 2.1 diesel.

[MrQuick]

For starters this is a very interesting discussion. Excellent points Damntrue especially on e85. A plant was just completed a few miles from me and when I tell people it is a terrible idea they give me the deer in the headlights look.

One point for discussion. Does anyone doubt the amount of oil the middle east actually has in reserve? Saudi has been producing oil at 9-10 million barrels a day for over 20 years. That is over 60 billion barrels of oil. In that time there have been no huge discoveries yet their claimed reserves have increased.

I for one having worked in the middle east do not trust their claim that they can supply any oil required indefinitely. This does put a push on for alterate fuels. I wish I knew the answer because I would go develop that product. I do know e85 will turn out to be a disaster. Hard to say but I read some of the neigboring Arab states are looking to alternative income resources such as resorts and vacation properties.

http://www.worldalmanac.com/blog/whohastheoil.html

I watched a show on Planet Green where GM tested a Silverado E85 versus the Hybrid Tahoe. The Tahoe did very well during head to head challenges. Even beat the E85 in towing. If you have on-demand check it out. Intersting watch. But I want Hydrogen power NOW!!!!!

[Tony_SS]

Here's an interesting read on natural gas vehicles:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080425/ap_on_bi_ge/utah_natural_gas_vehicles

So whats the down side there?

As for e85, I think its just another emerging market for the traders to make money on, whether its good for the economy as a whole or not.

[megaladon6]

and let's remember, simply in terms of available oil, that there's alaska, carribean/gulf of mexico, and siberia that all have MASSIVE amounts of oil left untapped. yes they all get some really crappy weather but it's something we deal with already. and the alaskan field (into canada) is supposed to rival saudi arabia. siberia is KNOWN to be much larger than S.A. unfortunately we'll probably just sit by and let china steal it, then sell them the equipment. (i've been saying that since LONG before the clancy novel)

[megaladon6]

one question about e85. everyones been talking about corn based ethanol. what about sawgrass and hemp (the kind you can't smoke :))?

[80proZ]

one question about e85. everyones been talking about corn based ethanol. what about sawgrass and hemp (the kind you can't smoke :))?

Or sugar cane and/or sugar beets??

[MrQuick]

Here's an interesting read on natural gas vehicles:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080425/ap_on_bi_ge/utah_natural_gas_vehicles

So whats the down side there?

As for e85, I think its just another emerging market for the traders to make money on, whether its good for the economy as a whole or not. CNG, It still produces oxides of nitrogen (one ingredient for photo chemical smog) and its not a renewable energy source. Eventually supply will decrease.

E85 can work, they are still early in its usage.

Sugar cane and beets are my guess expensive to grow but also requires more land as is the case with hemp and sawgrass. Enviromentalist might be against growing on or around marsh land which is most often protected. But good question. Maybe money has something to do with it.

[Damn True]

Or sugar cane and/or sugar beets??

Cane is where Brazil gets most of their Ethanol. Works good, but you need a tropical climate to grow it in. Most of our arrable land is not in such climates.

[harshman]

Cane is where Brazil gets most of their Ethanol. Works good, but you need a tropical climate to grow it in. Most of our arrable land is not in such climates.
Damned global warming i tell ya!!!





Oh wait, never mind. Maybe if we keep warming the earth, Kansas might be the next tropical getaway.:pat:

[rohrt]

Hey that artical on CNG was interesting. I will be looking into that a little more.

[Tony_SS]

Ok well Shells profits are up 25% in Q1. I'm so happy for them!

The good news is the high price of gas has not affected the cost of my beer. In fact it was on sale! I bought two cases to reward them for the great deal.

[80proZ]

Cane is where Brazil gets most of their Ethanol. Works good, but you need a tropical climate to grow it in. Most of our arrable land is not in such climates.
Not true.Sugar cane is grown to a great extent in SW florida,around the southern end of LK. Ocheechobee.Sugar is big bussiness in central southern Florida.There has been talk of an ethanol plant at one of the 5 sugar refineries in that area.
If you ever chance a drive to Miami on US 27 S,you'll run into cane country.Cane feilds as far as the eye can see.

[MrQuick]

Cane is where Brazil gets most of their Ethanol. Works good, but you need a tropical climate to grow it in. Most of our arrable land is not in such climates.


Not true.Sugar cane is grown to a great extent in SW florida,around the southern end of LK. Ocheechobee.Sugar is big bussiness in central southern Florida.There has been talk of an ethanol plant at one of the 5 sugar refineries in that area.
If you ever chance a drive to Miami on US 27 S,you'll run into cane country.Cane feilds as far as the eye can see. Corn will grow in more places than cane or fuelable grasses will. It also requires less maintenance. Corn and soy bean fuels are tough to beat.

[MrQuick]

Damned global warming i tell ya!!!


Oh wait, never mind. Maybe if we keep warming the earth, Kansas might be the next tropical getaway.:pat: LOL, the tracked climate change is mainly at the poles and Greenland. Every where eles is arguable.

[JEFFTATE]

Why don't we just finish using the oil in the ground first and then move on to the next energy source ?
We should just drive more fuel efficient vehicles and conserve the oil as long a possible.
There's many years of oil still in the ground , Right ?

[rohrt]

Why is everyone so up in arms about the record profits that the oil companies are getting. They get a percentage of the sale price. When gas goes up so does that percentage, thus so does their profit.

[80proZ]

Why is everyone so up in arms about the record profits that the oil companies are getting. They get a percentage of the sale price. When gas goes up so does that percentage, thus so does their profit.
The price of gas goes way beyond just fuel.Lots of stuff made from petroleom and its byproducts.And you need to transport everthing too.
Same can be said for corn also.

[Damn True]

The price of gas goes way beyond just fuel.Lots of stuff made from petroleom and its byproducts.And you need to transport everthing too.
Same can be said for corn also.

...and three gallons of dino-fuel is consumed to make every gallon of ethanol.

[shep]

...and three gallons of dino-fuel is consumed to make every gallon of ethanol.
In reality it is probably more than that when you consider the fuel used in the drying, hauling, planting, harvesting, hauling, drying, and then fueling the still at the ethanol plant.

The ethanol plants pay a premium for the corn. The byproducts of the process are Co2 and denatured grain. Cattle love the denatured grain to the point of having to mix it with hay to slow them while eating. I am not sure on price but the farmers say the denatured grain is better for the cattle easier to digest and get the nutrients out of, reducing the amount of grain needed. Thus the ethanol plants driving up the price of beef is only marginal not the increases that we are seeing. The Co2 is captured and then sold off as well.

As for using cane or sugar beets, corn has a longer shelf life it can sit for years in a bin before being used. Cane and sugar beets will rot long before corn will.
As for using grasses, around here they have tried for years to eradicate Johnson Grass to the point that it is illegal to knowing allow it to grow on your land. This type of grass has a higher sugar content than corn and can completely take over a field in a few years. It would be able to be harvested a couple of times a year and would not need to be replanted.

I am not pro or con ethanol, I think it is a step in the right direction but it is not quite ready for the main stream.

I hope diesel hybrid will be the hot ticket in the near future. Diesel on the highway electric in town, best of both worlds.

[Tony_SS]

Hybrid BioDiesel FTW.

Has anyone seen the Trucks! episode where Stacy makes his own BioDiesel? If not, check it out. Pretty interesting!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=457773184300286737

Word has it, that there's a station in Cleveland selling the stuff for $2.50 a gallon.
http://www.myfoxcleveland.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=6467524&version=1&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1

Right now, that is looking like the ONLY way to go,

because........

This little article gives some insight on oil price futures.
http://www.infowars.com/?p=1950

Hard to believe a only a year ago, oil was only $64 a barrel!

[Damn True]

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm?chan=rss_topStories_ssi_5


If ever there was a car made for the times, this would seem to be it: a sporty subcompact that seats five, offers a navigation system, and gets a whopping 65 miles to the gallon. Oh yes, and the car is made by Ford Motor (F (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?symbol=F)), known widely for lumbering gas hogs. Ford's 2009 Fiesta ECOnetic goes on sale in November. But here's the catch: Despite the car's potential to transform Ford's image and help it compete with Toyota Motor (TM (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?symbol=TM)) and Honda Motor (HMC (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?symbol=HMC)) in its home market, the company will sell the little fuel sipper only in Europe. "We know it's an awesome vehicle," says Ford America President Mark Fields. "But there are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S." The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.
Automakers such as Volkswagen (VLKAY (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?symbol=VLKAY)) and Mercedes-Benz (DAI (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?symbol=DAI)) have predicted for years that a technology called "clean diesel" would overcome many Americans' antipathy to a fuel still often thought of as the smelly stuff that powers tractor trailers. Diesel vehicles now hitting the market with pollution-fighting technology are as clean or cleaner than gasoline and at least 30% more fuel-efficient.
Yet while half of all cars sold in Europe last year ran on diesel, the U.S. market remains relatively unfriendly to the fuel. Taxes aimed at commercial trucks mean diesel costs anywhere from 40 cents to $1 more per gallon than gasoline. Add to this the success of the Toyota Prius, and you can see why only 3% of cars in the U.S. use diesel. "Americans see hybrids as the darling," says Global Insight auto analyst Philip Gott, "and diesel as old-tech."
None of this is stopping European and Japanese automakers, which are betting they can jump-start the U.S. market with new diesel models. Mercedes-Benz by next year will have three cars it markets as "BlueTec." Even Nissan (NSANY (http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?symbol=NSANY)) and Honda, which long opposed building diesel cars in Europe, plan to introduce them in the U.S. in 2010. But Ford, whose Fiesta ECOnetic compares favorably with European diesels, can't make a business case for bringing the car to the U.S.
TOO PRICEY TO IMPORT

First of all, the engines are built in Britain, so labor costs are high. Plus the pound remains stronger than the greenback. At prevailing exchange rates, the Fiesta ECOnetic would sell for about $25,700 in the U.S. By contrast, the Prius typically goes for about $24,000. A $1,300 tax deduction available to buyers of new diesel cars could bring the price of the Fiesta to around $24,400. But Ford doesn't believe it could charge enough to make money on an imported ECOnetic.
Ford plans to make a gas-powered version of the Fiesta in Mexico for the U.S. So why not manufacture diesel engines there, too? Building a plant would cost at least $350 million at a time when Ford has been burning through more than $1 billion a month in cash reserves. Besides, the automaker would have to produce at least 350,000 engines a year to make such a venture profitable. "We just don't think North and South America would buy that many diesel cars," says Fields.
The question, of course, is whether the U.S. ever will embrace diesel fuel and allow automakers to achieve sufficient scale to make money on such vehicles. California certified VW and Mercedes diesel cars earlier this year, after a four-year ban. James N. Hall, of auto researcher 293 Analysts, says that bellwether state and the Northeast remain "hostile to diesel." But the risk to Ford is that the fuel takes off, and the carmaker finds itself playing catch-up—despite having a serious diesel contender in its arsenal.

[6'9"Witha69]

It's a case of corner the market or get hosed jumping the gun. I know guys who get 20 MPG city in lifted 4x4 diesel trucks. Most people look at the price per gallon and freak, but the truth is you save based on mileage.

Someone's gotta learn.

[Jim Nilsen]

Corn will grow in more places than cane or fuelable grasses will. It also requires less maintenance. Corn and soy bean fuels are tough to beat.

There is current legislation trying to be passed that would eliminate the sugar crop in Florida altogether and return the land back to it natural state of uselessness.

[WS6]

It's so lame that the technology is there to make a great vehicle but politics and people having their heads up the a$$es keeps the technology in other countries. We are getting our a$$ handed to us by other countries in the technology fields because of all the special interest groups everywhere wanting to be satisfied, meanwhile everyone suffers for it

[Jim Nilsen]

It's so lame that the technology is there to make a great vehicle but politics and people having their heads up the a$$es keeps the technology in other countries. We are getting our a$$ handed to us by other countries in the technology fields because of all the special interest groups everywhere wanting to be satisfied, meanwhile everyone suffers for it

It used to be that you would have to bend over and kiss their ass goodbye ,now most people just have to pull back just a few inches !!!

[80proZ]

There is current legislation trying to be passed that would eliminate the sugar crop in Florida altogether and return the land back to it natural state of uselessness.
Completley untrue.There only buying out one company at the cost of 1.7 billion tax payers dollars.As far as i'm concerned there wasting my money.Lots more to that story than being told.

[shep]

I found out yesterday that one of the bio diesel from algae plants is looking for land in the county I live in. We have an ethanol plant in the county as well.

[Martin71RS]

Here in the Netherlands you can get almost any car with a diesel engine.
They are very popular here, specially the turbo diesels.
Performance wise they are still great since the diesels have plenty of torque (and a gearbox to match it).
Actually a lot of diesels are quicker than the gasoline models.

Diesel is a bit cheaper than gasoline here, around 15~20% but you pay a higher "road tax" for a diesel, even more for an LPG vehicle.(LPG being 60% cheaper)
these taxes are related to the weight of the car and the fuel it runs on.
So anyway you look at it our government will get your money out of your pocket.... the only thing that will make a difference is your yearly milage since the taxes are a fixed amount and the fuel is a variable.

my mate runs a VW golf tdi and gets around 42mpg, the same model with a gasoline model does something like 26mpg.

they are not the stinking, sooting, slow and noisy things they used to be. (had a VW Golf 1st model diesel once so I know what that means)

Martin

[Jim Nilsen]

Completley untrue.There only buying out one company at the cost of 1.7 billion tax payers dollars.As far as i'm concerned there wasting my money.Lots more to that story than being told.

I guess I will have to reevaluate the difference between completely and only one ? I've never thought of it like that only once and that was when I didn't have all of the info needed to make a true statement. Don't you just hate misinformation or lack of.

[Jim Nilsen]

...and three gallons of dino-fuel is consumed to make every gallon of ethanol.

Is that why the price of good corn whiskey is at or above $30 a gallon? And if that is the way it is ,then it will always be a subsidized energy it would seem and the only thing it has done for anyone is raise the price of the corn which helped out the farmers at the expense of everyone. I like to see farmers make a profit but it seems we all got side tracked on the main goal out of anger for high oil prices and the desire for an alternative that really can work in a vehicle but just not in the chain of supply ,demand, actual cost and the ability to help out the people who feed you. I keep hearing that higher fuel prices are hurting the farmers. This is a viscious circle headed for the destruction of itself.

[Damn True]

Pretty sure I have expounded on my affinity for European Diesel powered station wagons...in this thread and elsewhere. My personal history with them is limited to trips to Europe and includes:


Renault Megane' (a bit smaller than a Subaru Outback)
Fiat Bravo (about the size of a focus 5 door)
Alfa Romeo 159 (about the size of a BMW 3 series wagon)
BMW 5-series diesel wagon

Of the above the BMW was the best driving experience but honestly the engine is HUGE and the car would probably only get 30-ish mpg which is still quite good for a car that big and powerful.

Each of the rest were brilliant little cars. Even the fiat is a car I would gladly purchase and buy as a daily driver. The Alfa was awesome and absolutely beautiful inside and out. But alas...none of them are available here, and none of the big-3 or even the big Japanese automakers have the stones to jump into the diesel market. All of them have brilliant little cars on the road in Europe, but how would it look if Toyota had a 50mpg diesel yaris (which exists already) parked on the lot next to a Prius that costs $15k more. Ford has a fantastic catalog of diesel cars as well....no dice.

Want a diesel? You must see ze Gehrmans!

...which ain't the worst thing, I like German cars. Besides, I am brand agnostic. I don't give a rip who makes it as long as it meets my needs and presents the value I am looking for.

So a few weeks ago we pulled the trigger on a new Volkswagen Jetta Sportwagen Diesel.

WOW, what a bitchin little car. Well under $30k gets you a beautiful plush and comfortable interior with a very stylish dash. Satellite Nav, DVD, Full-feature bluetooth, iPod integration, SD-RAM slot to 30GB HDD, CD, 4-band radio (AM, FM, Sirius, Weather). The biggest damned sunroof you have ever seen in your life. One touch power everything. Heated mirrors, heated windshield, heated seats. DSG transmission, limited slip diff traction control and about 52 air bags.

The engine puts out 140hp but 263 ftlbs of torque and gets 42mpg on the highway but that is a very conservative EPA figure. I am seeing at or above 50 on long runs. It uses a particulate filter regen system like the Audi R-8-10-12-15 instead of the urea injection system found on the Mercedes and BMW diesels so I don't have a 15k service to have someone wee in a tank on my car. Best of all, it's cleaner than darn near any gas burner and any other diesel, it gets great mileage and it isn't a neutered douchemobile like a prius.


Clean Diesel For The WIN!

Wk7fSIDPZOg

It handles better than any fwd station wagon has a right to. With a better set of tires and the springs/struts off an Audi A3 (completely interchangeable) it would be downright brilliant.

I love this little thing.


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2010/02/tdi-1.jpg

[Roger M]

How do you like the transmission? Do you prefer it over a manual gearbox?


Nice looking car BTW

[Damn True]

It's different. The manual in this car was really difficult for my wife to drive. Didn't have enough flywheel IMO.

The DSG is really neat. It's a 6sp trans. In drive it's really bloody smooth and it really does a good job of adapting to how you are driving. Accelerate slowly and it shifts early and very smooth but if you jump in it it will rev out a bit more and provide a much sharper shift. It has a sport-auto mode that brings the shift points up considerably and downshifts really nicely keeping the engine in the fat part of the torque curve. Then of course there is a tiptronic (or whatever VW calls it) mode as well that gives you nearly full authority over your shifts. It won't let you run deep into redline (it would do you no good anyway, it's a diesel) but within limits you can have a lot of fun with it.

And with all that torque you'd expect a bunch of torque steer, but the limited slip does a great job of managing it.

[Boatmark]

I can tell you from experience that you will like this car more the longer you own it. I have a gas 05' (very first truck load of the new generation) that I bought to commute when I lived in Florida. Ran it 94k the first thirty months with ZERO issues. My mom is driving it now with 125k. It looks and acts new.

The thing that gets me about it is that after all that it drives and feels just like the day I bought it. No rattles, and none of the loose feeling every other car seems to get after the first 40k. The interior materials seem a cut above other cars in the price range. Why can't my Chevy Avalanche feel this good!

I would have gone diesel but they weren't out yet. My buddy has the identical diesel car . . . just as fast as mine and gets 43mpg at 85 consistantly to the 31 of my gas car. The diesel gets better as it breaks in.

One note if you commute . . . the cup holder is too small. I had a perpetual 40oz. soda with me that fits well between the shifter and the dash when the car is in drive . . . but the fake brushed alum. on the console is a decal and bubbles from the moisture. Cannot replace the decal, and the console insert costs a fortune. Put a towel under your drink.

Enjoy . . .

[Damn True]

From everything I have read I can expect a 10-15% improvement in mpg once the engine is broken in (10kmi +) because the cyl pressure now isn't as high as it will be then once the rings are good and bedded.

Seems like the major determining factor on like/dislike regarding VW's is the dealer service dept. Some dealerships have higher numbers of VW trained techs while others go bottom of the barrel with mostly junior ASE/wyotech types.

[megaladon6]

http://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php
here's your new home!!! the source for any and everything you could possibly want to know. be warned, some of these guys are fanatics! they pull oil samples every oil change for analysis, and sometimes more! and some of them turned their little 100hp oil burner into a 300+hp smoke belching prius destroyer. :smoke:
but here's the bad news, VW issued a recall on the DSG. i don't know the story, i do know they keep extending the warranties. and IIRC there's a "trick" of doing a specific maintenance job very early on that prevents a lot of problems. none of which is a new story with VW auto's.
welcome to the "club" and good luck!
(btw, i give you a year before you do upgrades :) )
nick

[megaladon6]

Seems like the major determining factor on like/dislike regarding VW's is the dealer service dept. Some dealerships have higher numbers of VW trained techs while others go bottom of the barrel with mostly junior ASE/wyotech types.
better yet, find yourself a guru (for non-warranty work of course)
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dj2b4ww_0cbj2p8dt

[Boatmark]

As a follow on to this long standing thread on diesels . . .

They may not be the answer, but they sure as hell will improve the situation, and maybe buy us ten or fifteen years to develop some better technology. To me the hybrid is nothing more than an novelty. Wait till all this Prius's get miles on them and need services and replacements.

My Chevy Avalanche on its best day gets about 17 on the highway, and maybe 11 babied around town. I love the truck, and working in the marine industry a tow vehicle is an imperitive. Now at my last job we had Dodge Sprinter (Mercedes) vans as service trucks. They are four cylinder turbo diesels. They are big, ugly, and as aerodynamic as a brick wall, but they get 21 in the city, and 26 on the highway even with employees driving them flat out all the time.
They have the guts to tow a 26" twin engine fish boat just as well as my Avalanche.

Why are they not building us 1/2 ton pick-up's and SUV's with similar motors? My boss was from Finland, and couldn't believe how few diesels we have. Europe has a diesel version of almost everything. Our own manufactures, or their partners, are already building the parts overseas, we should be getting them!

What would our consumption be if just 25% of us went to diesel on our next purchase.

Diesel is our best current alternative.

[Damn True]

http://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php
here's your new home!!! the source for any and everything you could possibly want to know. be warned, some of these guys are fanatics! they pull oil samples every oil change for analysis, and sometimes more! and some of them turned their little 100hp oil burner into a 300+hp smoke belching prius destroyer. :smoke:
but here's the bad news, VW issued a recall on the DSG. i don't know the story, i do know they keep extending the warranties. and IIRC there's a "trick" of doing a specific maintenance job very early on that prevents a lot of problems. none of which is a new story with VW auto's.
welcome to the "club" and good luck!
(btw, i give you a year before you do upgrades :) )
nick


Already there.

...and I was browsing tirerack.com for wheels while you were posting that.

Got a link to that recall? I seem to remember reading something about it, but discounted it for some reason and I don't recall why. Want to make sure I'm in the clear on it or not.

[wmhjr]

A few things about diesels..... I'm a big fan! But the US has got some diesel issues.

I'm definitely a diesel fan. When I bought a new car 2 hrs ago I would have liked to have gotten the MB E-Diesel. However, due to PA adopting jacka$$ CA emission standards, they were not legal to buy here. Plus, there are still issues with the economics of Diesel in the US - and the AWD E was not available with the Bluetec diesel motor.

The advantages of the diesel are almost too many to list. I love the Cummins Diesel in my truck. It is the best part of the truck.

The problem in the US with diesel is many-fold also: Constrained capacity has now reached a point where diesel is likely to get much more expensive again. Recall that just a few short years ago, the US exported a large percentage of diesel products. Now, they're at 100% capacity in terms of production and can't keep up to domestic demand. Thank your tree-hugging friends for this. There is a very narrow (about 7%) degree of variation that refineries can adjust their product mix using the same crude.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2009/panel1/deer09_leister.pdf

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=diesel_factors_affecting_prices

http://www.glgroup.com/News/Fuel-for-Growth--More-US-Diesel-distillate-capacity--28940.html

Also - for those Biodiesel fans - I'm not much of a fan. Especially since I've now put 3 sets of fuel filters in my diesel bobcat over the last week. The tank is filled with red fuel. But I ran Biodiesel over the summer. The cellulose content in colder temps plays hell with fuel systems, and residue keeps clogging the filters in the cold. Engine won't run up from idle. Replace the filter? Runs like a champ for a while. Then repeat as necessary.

[Damn True]

BD is a non-starter in modern clean diesel engines. VW allows a maximum of B5 (5% BD, 95% dino) in the new common rail engines.

The technology for manufacturing the stuff just doesn't isn't up to snuff.

[megaladon6]

are you running biodiesel/biofuel or waste veggie oil? good bio should be highly refined and filtered, there should be no residue. the WVO's on the other hand require special (multiple) filter trains and preheaters.

[wmhjr]

I'm running biodiesel. Biodiesel gels at a higher temperature than DF2 or red fuel. Also, quality and compliance to the spec with biodiesel is highly variable.

[megaladon6]

yeah, never mind the recall. i just saw another post about a DSG issue/recall and didn't read it. it's limited to a specific group of cars and involves a faulty temp sensor and maybe bad programming. since yours is new i'm sure you're outside the dates.

[Damn True]

are you running biodiesel/biofuel or waste veggie oil? good bio should be highly refined and filtered, there should be no residue. the WVO's on the other hand require special (multiple) filter trains and preheaters.

If I run more than 5% BD VW will not cover any fuel/engine problem. The quality, especially in terms of lubricity is too variable.

[megaladon6]

i was talking about wmhjr's post.

[Damn True]

Here is an interesting development: Dodge is the first to offer a diesel in a 1/2-ton.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2014-ram-1500-ecodiesel-v-6-first-drive-review
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/09/26/2014-ram-1500-diesel-quick-spin-review/


....apparently the new Chevy Colorado is rumored to have a diesel option in its 2nd production year

[andrewb70]

Here is an interesting development: Dodge is the first to offer a diesel in a 1/2-ton.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2014-ram-1500-ecodiesel-v-6-first-drive-review
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/09/26/2014-ram-1500-diesel-quick-spin-review/


....apparently the new Chevy Colorado is rumored to have a diesel option in its 2nd production year

I realize that well equipped trucks are expensive, but Ef me man…$50K for a truck? LOL

Andrew

[2yellow69]

Damn True,
I was a little bored at work and ran across this thread and just burned through part of my afternoon. That, I thank you for! I work for the local Cat dealer and was laughing at what some of the thoughts people came up with on how "bad " the diesel engined cars would be. Amazing how 5 years changed all of that. We were looking to buy a 2006 TDI Jetta in 2006 but VW would not budge on the price because they were selling them as soon as they would come in. We ended up buying a 2006 2.5 Jetta sedan. We really liked that car while we owned it. Last month my wife got a new job that was twice the distance from the house so we started looking at TDI's again. We found a really clean 2010 Golf TDI 6 speed manual with 52k on it and brought it home. What a nice and fun car. I wasn't sure I'd like it as much as I have. My wife LOVE's it. She's been averaging 42mpg in rush hour traffic going 58 miles round trip. The mpg's go down a little when I drive it. How has yours been doing?

[Damn True]

My TDi wagon has been great. I've got a bit over 60k on the clock. It's had zero problems and the only things that have cost me money on it is fuel, oil changes and one set of tires. I get the service done at the VW dealer and from what I gather, this has much to do with the ownership experience. Some dealers have higher percentages of VW trained techs (favorable) some have higher percentages of Wyotech etc types (not as favorable).

The car is still rattle and squeak free, and if anything, the mpg continues to improve. In April of last year I made a weekend run from Mountain View to Chandler, AZ to pick up a new rescue dog. On the way down I drove from Mountain View to Blythe, CA before stopping for fuel (because I didn't know what was beyond Blythe) a distance of 575mi and I still had more than 1/8 of a tank. On the way back I drove from Chandler, AZ to Los Banos, CA before stopping for fuel...659mi on 14ga of diesel :jawdrop: 47mpg. That was under pretty ideal conditions, encountering no traffic whatsoever and with just me and the dog in the car. My wife and I repeated the trip at Christmas with she and I, 225lbs of dogs in the car and a crapload of gifts and wine in a Thule rocketbox on the roof. Still made it to Blythe on the trip out...41mpg... but only got as far as Lebec on the way back 465mi for 33mpg due to heavy winds in the desert and traffic in LA.

Is it perfect? No. I miss the additional cargo space that the Outback it replaced had and I miss the AWD and extra ground clearance. I HATE-HATE-HATE putting chains on it when I head to the mountains in the winter. We looked at a diesel Touareg a month or two ago but because it's rear overhang is so short it only has ONE cubic foot more cargo space than the Jetta wagon. It's wider and taller but the vertical space isn't that useful to me as I avoid loading above the sills to retain visibility. We are considering a Tahoe or F-150 for use for camping trips, skiing and such. That Dodge diesel looks nice but it's too much money for a vehicle that wouldn't be a daily driver.

[2yellow69]

i know what you mean about less space. Until getting the Golf, we would take my F350 crew cab long bed everywhere. The last time we went to Costco we came out to the parking lot, saw the Golf and said, "Oh crap!".