Least Obstrusive Roll Cage

[Mr. B]

I've been reading a lot of threads on seat belt, cages, etc. I think I need to put in a simple cage. Does anyone have any info on a cage that is the tightest fitting to the interior? When I'm out with the family, I don't want back seat passengers to be too disrupted by the cage.

[jason@gmachine]

custom is the way to go.

pre-made or bolt in cages are unsafe and will do more damage than good if you roll.

search around for a good shop near you, go to more than one and look at the work. If you dont know what your looking at then get a friend to go with you. A cage is there to save your life, not your wallet.


jason

[John Wright]

Dave at pro-touring f-body.com is supposed to be getting some info together for me regarding the roll bars that he carries. I will forward the info on if you are still interested. I have kids in my back seats too, and I certainly don't want to make it hard for them to get in and out nor give them a place to bust their punkins in the event of a crash.

[chicane67]

custom is the way to go.

pre-made or bolt in cages are unsafe and will do more damage than good if you roll.

search around for a good shop near you, go to more than one and look at the work. If you dont know what your looking at then get a friend to go with you. A cage is there to save your life, not your wallet.


jason

I TOTALLY agree.

Have the rollbar or cage made to fit you... in your car... with your seat and accessories. Pre-fab rollbars and cages are junk.

[jason@gmachine]

If you want an honest opinion from a builder, then here it is-

Allocate a good portion of your build to safety.
(cage, seats, harness, brakes, ect...)

There is a reason why companies like ours charge so much, because there is more to a cage then what is seen from the eye. Cut corners in others areas of the build, but not safety. You can always get a better pain job, engine, trans, ect... down the road but your life or the life of another will never come back. People have died because cage work was too close to the head of the passenger. It makes me sad to see some cages where the head of the passenger is so close that it will just take a simple roll to take them out.

PRE-MADE CAGES ARE A JOKE!!!!!!


I’m not saying this because I want your business, I’m just saying this to help you out. I get calls almost every day from people that put pre-made cages in and now want a real cage built. IM booked for over a year right now and charge quite a bit for work. You get what you pay for, never forget that when it comes to cage work.


Enough with the rant,
If you have questions please pm me, I will gladly answer any questions you have.


jason

[LS1NOVA]

Jason,
Do you ever use swingout door bars, Im looking for the best design.

[saunacrank]

so your saying great companies like Art Morrison make cages that are unsafe? Im buying their 8 point roll bar and having a local shop fit and weld it in. I'm 5'8 , have sparco torinos, and harnesses, really doubt my head is going to hit the cage, and what difference would it make hitting the cage or hitting the car, all the same, ill have padding on my cage

[chicane67]

so your saying great companies like Art Morrison make cages that are unsafe? I'm buying their 8 point roll bar and having a local shop fit and weld it in. I'm 5'8 , have sparco torinos, and harnesses, really doubt my head is going to hit the cage, and what difference would it make hitting the cage or hitting the car, all the same, ill have padding on my cage

In a short summation... for a street car... yes.

(The following opinion takes in account for worst case scenario, because it would be downright stupid to think any other way when considering the science of safety)

I think you are looking at this with rose colored glasses. If you think that you are going to drive around with the belts correctly worn every-time you get into your car, even if its just a quick trip to the store... I think you are kidding yourself. Not to mention, that if you don't think that you noggin is capable of hitting the cage... you are certainly mistaken. Have you ever seen sled testing of restrains and seats before ?? If you have, you wouldn't be saying what you did.

Under high G loading the human body becomes a rag doll and is uncontrollably limp... and its limp enough to stretch and contort beyond your imagination. If you feel that you can over ride the physics involved... you have just become my hero.

The problem with kit cages is... that with the already limited space in your interior... it becomes even more sparse. And unless you are sitting 10 inches away from any tube, padded or not, and/or you are strapped in correctly... my bet is that your head will crack open like an egg. Custom cages can be built with this in mind and you can put tubes in places where no kit cage could even think about. You can maximize driver space because you do not have to follow the confines of the particular kit design. And believe me... even an inch difference can make the difference between life and death.

Now the misconception about padding. What do you really think the padding is really for ?? And how much energy do you think an inch of multi density foam (not to mention the junk sold without SFI cert) can really absorb when one of your body parts has been uncontrollably accelerated toward it at 65+G ?? FWIW... the padding is for low speed impact... not 65+G. (65G is about the common impact G load of typical accident.)

Unless you are in a full containment seat wearing your helmet and having your belts cinched down properly... I can pretty much guarantee the individual will sustain some injury outside that of a "fender bender". Does the idea of a better seat and restraints improve your chances ?? Yup... it sure does. That is the whole idea behind full containment seating and the newer materials being used in restraints. If your head, rib cage and legs are surrounded with minimal gap... your body has less room to accelerate and less probability of injury.

Your 5'8" frame at your weight will still stretch your restraints. And it may just be enough for your head to find a bar inside a already cramped kit cage... as I am pretty sure that your restraints are not utilizing polyester material. Not to mention... that the seat padding is also a culprit leading to injury. If it can compresses, that means your body can still accelerate... which leads to your belts stretching... which leads to your head sounding like a ball off an aluminum bat.

Hey... its your life and I am not about to tell you that I am any kind of an expert in human physiology... but really though... how much is your life worth ??

[monza]

In a short summation... for a street car... yes.

(The following opinion takes in account for worst case scenario, because it would be downright stupid to think any other way when considering the science of safety)

I think you are looking at this with rose colored glasses. If you think that you are going to drive around with the belts correctly worn every-time you get into your car, even if its just a quick trip to the store... I think you are kidding yourself. Not to mention, that if you don't think that you noggin is capable of hitting the cage... you are certainly mistaken. Have you ever seen sled testing of restrains and seats before ?? If you have, you wouldn't be saying what you did.

Under high G loading the human body becomes a rag doll and is uncontrollably limp... and its limp enough to stretch and contort beyond your imagination. If you feel that you can over ride the physics involved... you have just become my hero.

The problem with kit cages is... that with the already limited space in your interior... it becomes even more sparse. And unless you are sitting 10 inches away from any tube, padded or not, and/or you are strapped in correctly... my bet is that your head will crack open like an egg. Custom cages can be built with this in mind and you can put tubes in places where no kit cage could even think about. You can maximize driver space because you do not have to follow the confines of the particular kit design. And believe me... even an inch difference can make the difference between life and death.

Now the misconception about padding. What do you really think the padding is really for ?? And how much energy do you think an inch of multi density foam (not to mention the junk sold without SFI cert) can really absorb when one of your body parts has been uncontrollably accelerated toward it at 65+G ?? FWIW... the padding is for low speed impact... not 65+G. (65G is about the common impact G load of typical accident.)

Unless you are in a full containment seat wearing your helmet and having your belts cinched down properly... I can pretty much guarantee the individual will sustain some injury outside that of a "fender bender". Does the idea of a better seat and restraints improve your chances ?? Yup... it sure does. That is the whole idea behind full containment seating and the newer materials being used in restraints. If your head, rib cage and legs are surrounded with minimal gap... your body has less room to accelerate and less probability of injury.

Your 5'8" frame at your weight will still stretch your restraints. And it may just be enough for your head to find a bar inside a already cramped kit cage... as I am pretty sure that your restraints are not utilizing polyester material. Not to mention... that the seat padding is also a culprit leading to injury. If it can compresses, that means your body can still accelerate... which leads to your belts stretching... which leads to your head sounding like a ball off an aluminum bat.

Hey... its your life and I am not about to tell you that I am any kind of an expert in human physiology... but really though... how much is your life worth ??

Wow ...that's heavy! So Chicane your PT street car current or future builds will have no roll bar, is that what I read from that?

[cheapthrillz]

I think he's saying that every cage he gets will be custom built specifically for his car...

[jason@gmachine]

so your saying great companies like Art Morrison make cages that are unsafe? Im buying their 8 point roll bar and having a local shop fit and weld it in. I'm 5'8 , have sparco torinos, and harnesses, really doubt my head is going to hit the cage, and what difference would it make hitting the cage or hitting the car, all the same, ill have padding on my cage

just because they have some great products does not mean that everything is "safe".

I like alot of their products, just not the cages.
You will regret the decision, everyone i talk to about those cages sells the car or has one custom built later down the road. I cant believe a shop is willing to take on the liability of installing that cage. Hope they have insurance.

i good quote from another builder.
"your head will move, the cage wont"



jason

[LONE*STAR]

The bottom line is these cars are not crazy different coming off the assembly line... someone's gotta have a DIY kit that will protect my family and not pop anybodys melon in the process... or I smell profit potential for someone. DIY Protouring cage... "At home on the track safe for the kids" Hell Chicane67 you could do the marketing and design I'll take the liability/cost....:)

[Damn True]

The science of building a good cage and the fitting required to install a good cage in a street car is beyond the average shop, let alone the average home builder.

If you are going to install a cage, it needs to be built by someone who builds RACE CARS, not hot rods.

[Mkelcy]

In a short summation... for a street car... yes.

(The following opinion takes in account for worst case scenario, because it would be downright stupid to think any other way when considering the science of safety)

I think you are looking at this with rose colored glasses. If you think that you are going to drive around with the belts correctly worn every-time you get into your car, even if its just a quick trip to the store... I think you are kidding yourself. Not to mention, that if you don't think that you noggin is capable of hitting the cage... you are certainly mistaken. Have you ever seen sled testing of restrains and seats before ?? If you have, you wouldn't be saying what you did.

Under high G loading the human body becomes a rag doll and is uncontrollably limp... and its limp enough to stretch and contort beyond your imagination. If you feel that you can over ride the physics involved... you have just become my hero.

The problem with kit cages is... that with the already limited space in your interior... it becomes even more sparse. And unless you are sitting 10 inches away from any tube, padded or not, and/or you are strapped in correctly... my bet is that your head will crack open like an egg. Custom cages can be built with this in mind and you can put tubes in places where no kit cage could even think about. You can maximize driver space because you do not have to follow the confines of the particular kit design. And believe me... even an inch difference can make the difference between life and death.

Now the misconception about padding. What do you really think the padding is really for ?? And how much energy do you think an inch of multi density foam (not to mention the junk sold without SFI cert) can really absorb when one of your body parts has been uncontrollably accelerated toward it at 65+G ?? FWIW... the padding is for low speed impact... not 65+G. (65G is about the common impact G load of typical accident.)

Unless you are in a full containment seat wearing your helmet and having your belts cinched down properly... I can pretty much guarantee the individual will sustain some injury outside that of a "fender bender". Does the idea of a better seat and restraints improve your chances ?? Yup... it sure does. That is the whole idea behind full containment seating and the newer materials being used in restraints. If your head, rib cage and legs are surrounded with minimal gap... your body has less room to accelerate and less probability of injury.

Your 5'8" frame at your weight will still stretch your restraints. And it may just be enough for your head to find a bar inside a already cramped kit cage... as I am pretty sure that your restraints are not utilizing polyester material. Not to mention... that the seat padding is also a culprit leading to injury. If it can compresses, that means your body can still accelerate... which leads to your belts stretching... which leads to your head sounding like a ball off an aluminum bat.

Hey... its your life and I am not about to tell you that I am any kind of an expert in human physiology... but really though... how much is your life worth ??

Thank you.

[Vegas69]

Roll bar, family, roll cage, don't belong in the same sentence. You build it for the family or ....

[Damn True]

Roll bar, family, roll cage, don't belong in the same sentence. You build it for the family or ....


Excellent point and one that should have been brought up earlier in this discussion.

Backseat passengers OR cage/bar.

[NOT A TA]

The bottom line is these cars are not crazy different coming off the assembly line... someone's gotta have a DIY kit that will protect my family and not pop anybodys melon in the process... or I smell profit potential for someone. DIY Protouring cage... "At home on the track safe for the kids" Hell Chicane67 you could do the marketing and design I'll take the liability/cost....:)


I think it would have to be something like this http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=95564&highlight=exo

[bret]

I do not neccessarily disagree the opinions offered above about most bolt-in rollbars/cages, but would offer that there may be a new alternative.

http://www.ridetech.com/catalog/TigerCage-2490-1.html

Before you absorb too much of this info, be aware that I designed, manufacture, and sell this product, so I have an obvious bias.

MOST custom rollbars/cages are properly designed and installed. To acheive this level of quality requires a significant investment in effort to locate and schedule a competent fabricator, and in money to pay him. Rollbar/cage design and installation is time consuming, expert work that typically brings $75-$100 per hour. A simple rollbar installation can be 30 hours including interior R&R. A typical 8 point cage can be 60-70 hours. The math adds up quickly...assuming that you can locate and schedule a competent installer. This is not such a chore in a major population area but can be a real problem in a more rural area.
The Tigercage was developed to bridge the gap between nothing [or worse, a poor cage] and the full-on fabrication excercise required for a 7 second NHRA car or a 250mph Bonneville racer. I will let you go to the link for the details but the highlights are:

1. pre-engineered design that is model specific to each application
2. SFI certification is pending - this level of approval doesn't happen overnight for good reason. We have supplied a large amount of supporting documentation for material properties, joint design, attachment design and weld process. SFI tells us to expect this process to take until the end of 2009.
3. Direct interface with the structural strength points of each application
4. 304 stainless offers the concept of "controlled crushability" similar to the crumple zones designed into a new car. 304L stainless has a ultimate tensile strength that is higher than mild steel and approaching chrome moly, but the yeild [bend] strength is lower. We expect the TigerCage to adbsorb crash energy instead of transferring it directly to the driver.

The downside...

1. It is initially expensive - 4k with harnesses - but avoids most of the installation expense. In the end the math will like come out in your favor.
2. SFI certification is not yet complete. The only thing I can guarantee you at this point in time is an increase in structural rigidity. While any increase in structural strength should improve crash safety, the conservative among you will likely wait for SFI's blessing.

The TigerCage may not be for you...but it may very well be the solution for many.

[chicane67]

Just as an FYI... some "tech" to consider... >>Click here<< (http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=17414&highlight=roll+cage)

And the tech still stands... even with the "L" specification added...

[BRIAN]

So you guys are saying a custom cage in a street car is safer than a kit cage in a street car? I agree that any cage in a street car is dangerous because that quick run to the store might cause a serious head injury even with proper restraints. Who puts on a helmet in a street car.

Just curious and not looking for an argumeent but to say all kit cages are dangerous is a strong statement. Have you ever had serious roll or collision with car that has your cage installed? I would think that is just about the only way to know exactly how it is going to react and what areas would need improvement. I know there are computer simulations but only real impacts will tell the whole story.

I agree I think only race shops that have actual experience should be installing any cage. I would only go to a shop that has enough cars out there that know how they will react in a real world impact. Find a Nascar shop looking for work as they get damaged all the time.

Interesting topic but would like to see more info as to why yours is better as far as engineering and testing you have done.

[jason@gmachine]

i prefer real world tests.....

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif



i know its not a MC but you get the point. :)

jason

[jason@gmachine]

I do not neccessarily disagree the opinions offered above about most bolt-in rollbars/cages, but would offer that there may be a new alternative.

http://www.ridetech.com/catalog/TigerCage-2490-1.html

Before you absorb too much of this info, be aware that I designed, manufacture, and sell this product, so I have an obvious bias.

MOST custom rollbars/cages are properly designed and installed. To acheive this level of quality requires a significant investment in effort to locate and schedule a competent fabricator, and in money to pay him. Rollbar/cage design and installation is time consuming, expert work that typically brings $75-$100 per hour. A simple rollbar installation can be 30 hours including interior R&R. A typical 8 point cage can be 60-70 hours. The math adds up quickly...assuming that you can locate and schedule a competent installer. This is not such a chore in a major population area but can be a real problem in a more rural area.
The Tigercage was developed to bridge the gap between nothing [or worse, a poor cage] and the full-on fabrication excercise required for a 7 second NHRA car or a 250mph Bonneville racer. I will let you go to the link for the details but the highlights are:

1. pre-engineered design that is model specific to each application
2. SFI certification is pending - this level of approval doesn't happen overnight for good reason. We have supplied a large amount of supporting documentation for material properties, joint design, attachment design and weld process. SFI tells us to expect this process to take until the end of 2009.
3. Direct interface with the structural strength points of each application
4. 304 stainless offers the concept of "controlled crushability" similar to the crumple zones designed into a new car. 304L stainless has a ultimate tensile strength that is higher than mild steel and approaching chrome moly, but the yeild [bend] strength is lower. We expect the TigerCage to adbsorb crash energy instead of transferring it directly to the driver.

The downside...

1. It is initially expensive - 4k with harnesses - but avoids most of the installation expense. In the end the math will like come out in your favor.
2. SFI certification is not yet complete. The only thing I can guarantee you at this point in time is an increase in structural rigidity. While any increase in structural strength should improve crash safety, the conservative among you will likely wait for SFI's blessing.

The TigerCage may not be for you...but it may very well be the solution for many.


I think you have a great idea. It might not replace the Custom built car, but it sure will be a great bolt in unit. At first i was not thrilled on the clamps, but after closer examination i agree that they are more then strong enough. I also like the use of the stainless, i have been wanting to use that for a while not, but the cost has prevented me from doing so.

good job on the kit.

jason

[Bryce]

decide what your car will be used for? NHRA has different requiremnts than SCCA. These have exact build specs for the car. with bar dimensions and allowed bends etc...

If you want your family in the car then the cage will for sure not pass NHRA. So dont try to go to the drag strip and run sub 11:90 because the cage will not pass spec.

good luck, but i dont think there is a "do all car".

but for a street car a custom cage is the way to go, this will protect the people in the car.

[mikedc]

Just a comment about the safety of cages in general, pre-bent or not:




All the same logic that says it's crazy to run a rollcage in a street car . . . would also say it's equally crazy to drive a restored stock muscle car too.


So the rollcage is a risk of head impact? Okay I totally agree. But before we start condemning the whole principle of cages in street cars, take a look at the hard steel structure & total lack of cushioning on a STOCK vintage muscle car's roof. That setup is so bad it's hilarious. (And as a bonus, this ugly steel roof structure is twice as prone to crushing into you compared to a caged car when you get t-boned or roll over!)

Of course the cage makes the metal closer. But even without the cage, I'll bet I could easily knock myself unconscious if I sneezed the wrong way while sitting in the driver seat of most classic muscle cars.



I'm not encouraging anyone to run an unsafe cage on the street, but I'm saying let's keep this in perspective. These muscle-era cars are pretty unsafe at the core. The chassis/frames, the dashboards, the steering wheels, the columns, the seat frames, the crazy-stupid lap belts they came with, the lack of headrests, the crappy headrests they got even when it was mandated, the steel all over the interior on the surfaces that the passengers can come in contact with, etc.

A rollcage or other safety mods might change the factors to contend with, but it's not like safety is a binary thing. There's a million shades of gray to the issue. The safety of these cars is a long way from being white regardless of whether it's got a cage or not.



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