Where is PT going (where has it gone?)?

[DarkBuddha]

First, I don't want this to be another "what is pro-touring" thread, but it may beg that question. So I wonder aloud: where is PT going? Where has it gone? Is it missing in action? Has it transformed; morphed into something else, something new? Does it have core values? Does it have core style? Does it have core rules?

Personally, it occurred to me early last year that as the pro-touring movement gathered steam (and press coverage), that the nature of what it was changed. I began to see less of the kinds of stuff that drew me to this forum and this style (I hate that word). It started to seem diluted with loosely related topics and projects and goals. More a fashion than a proper build paradigm. Big wheels? Call it PT. Lowered? Call it PT. "Sport" seats? Call it PT. Cuda, Mustang, Camaro? Call it PT. RA1 tires? Call it PT. We've all seen 'em listed on ebay. And heck, the choice magazine for the scene (PHR) has changed focus towards more drag articles and projects. What happened to slalom tests and g-numbers rather than timeslips, 60ft times, and ETs?

Now I know I've become less active, but is it because of the changes I noticed and my own change of interests (though I actually consider my Merkur as PT as anything)? I'd say yes and no.

So where are we? Are we done yet (already)? Are we lost? Are we bloated? Are we just welcoming? Too welcoming? Has becoming mainstream made us better or worse? Will there be backlash ('cause I feel it coming)? Rebellion? Squashed rebellion?


BTW, forgive me in advance if this seems like stirring the pot, because it's not meant to be. I like that this is a self conscious forum and that we think about this stuff from time to time and that we can be self-critical.

[TonyL]

Remember pro-touring's beginnings? Was it the road race cars of the seventys with the bulging fenders with minilites on them? Was it the trans am cars before them? Or was it big red dominating the silver state classic? Was it Mark Steilow and the red witch? or thrasher? or The Mule?
Was it that moment when Jeff Smith coined the term in Chevy High Performance magazine? or when Larry bought the name for this site and thought, "maybe I should open a message board?"

Thing is, it could be any and all of those things. Every time a muscle car gets built for something other than drag racing these days it gets lumped in with the label "pro-touring" And Im fine with that really. You don't see a Pro-street.com with a message board 10,000 members strong. Because this group of people build their cars for the love of getting the most out of a car. Because they love the trill of driving.
They love the thrill of being different, getting noticed. That's why the label has always been a problem for us here. We don't want to exclude someone just because he doesn't have a street legal road race car.

That's the core of our hobby though. I'd think we can all agree on that. The original, old school "pro-touring" god fathers were hard core. (I've always felt there should be a section on here labeled "Hardcore") But lets face it. Those cars are purpose built and may be a little hard to drive in the day to day real world. So people, being how they are have reinterpreted that build stile to account for streetablity. Where've we been? We've altered the whole industry. Shows are starting to pick up on us. You cant even win SMOY anymore without competing in an autocross. Run through the hills gets bigger every year. Power tour goes without saying. More and more drivers events keep popping up. Where are we going? Looks like were still expanding. people find a new way to build a car every day.

[Restomod]

I think it is kind of spread out into several "styles" ...
The big wheel Pro touring poser you see on Ebay with BIG price tags.
The Big wheel bigger engine 6 speed A/C "Touring" car.
The Streetfighter race car with a license plate.
Guess it all depends on what style you are into but where its going .......no body knows!

[Nine Ball]

I don't think pro-touring will ever go out of style, due to the fact that there isn't a specific recipe for these cars. The overall consensus is that we have taken an older car and made technical improvements to acceleration, braking, handling, comfort and drivability, and most importantly: safety. Installing overdrive trannys, better brakes, safer seatbelts, more responsive steering components, better tires, more powerful and efficient engines, better seats and gauges, etc... will never go out of style.

But, the two-tone paint jobs, oversized wheels, overdone graphics, etc... stuff are styling trends and those will go out of style eventually.

[Young Gun]

I think pro-touring has become an idea...

I mean that it is the central idea behind many of the builds, generally people want their car to handle really well, that is the crudest and simplest way to put it, but then after that idea it splits, some people want some bling, others dont

for example, NoGo is being built to look good on the streets, hence bigger wheels and some custom work, but my grand idea behind it, is that I can swap on some new wheels on the weekend, make no suspension adjustments, and go thrash her on the track, and keep up with the new sports cars and hard core autocross cars...

I dont want to argue with anybody so if anybody is offended or dissagrees I will be happy to edit accordingly

[Texas Hotrod]

Nice relpies guys, well done.

I very seldom venture into the city (San Antonio), so I honestly can't say what's dead and what's alive in my area. I'd say there's more pro-street cars in this part of the state than anything. The local county car club has a few cool muscle cars, but those are basically stockers. One Camaro has a nice engine, and nice paint/wheels, but pretty much on the theme of no-touring (it has drum brakes). The '50s lead sleds don't interest me, so I can say that everything is dead in my area.

I guess in a few years when my twin turbo big block Camaro hits the streets, it'll show the locals what a real car is. I can't wait for when I can join in on a road run, then pro-touring will be alive and well over here. That is if one car accounts for anything. 99.9% of the '60s cars I see on the roads are stockers/beaters/pro-streeters.
Too bad the only race track around here is a drag strip. Not my idea of fun, just wish there was a twist coarse for real driving.

It'd be nice to know what really is alive and thriving, with the exception of what the magazines have to say.

[Sixx101]

I dont think that protouring will ever die but yet it will and has gotten stronger. A car that I can be comfortable in ( as much as a stylized, race bred car can be, he he) to drive anywhere. Yet always gives off that racers edge sense of being in touch with the road. Driving on the contact patch and not on the wobbling, floating on air, "I'm about to die" :drive2: feeling in the seat of your pants. Its the spirit of knowing that I built it from my dreams and it'll bite you if I let it off the leash. It's that surprised look on that old geezers face when he pulls that "im about to leave you in traffic in my new exotic" and you pull up on him, aggressively pass him and he knows your not to be tampered with. It's like a temper tantrum only better organized. :headbang: Thats what ProTouring is to me.

[Jim Nilsen]

Pro-Touring

The cars that are made of and from dreams and that is the future of any car except ours happen to be older.

I always like that term Pro-Jackstand :rotfl:

So many cars to hit the streets yet before it all picks up the momentum. There will be a PT car in every make and model that will appeal to someone and finally compell them to do one of their own.

Everyone likes a car you can drive to anywhere ,especially the track and now there is a kind of car that you can drive on the track once you get there and then drive it home.


This is just the horizon :cheers:

[sam1]

To me the basic premise is to to have a classic/muscle car without the shortcomings of old designs. Correcting bad suspension geometries, getting away from 4 wheel drums, adding a 5th or 6th gear so you can drive on the highway, vintage air, etc. From there the sky is the limit.

I think people are getting tired of the $150k twin turbo 1st gen camaros and Eleanor clones, there are only so many variations on a theme. The off the wall projects (ecotec turbo chevette), purpose built cars (II Much Fabrication), are starting to stand out more and more as people get tired of overexposure from 69 Camaros, 70 Chevelles, and 57 Chevys.

Personally I will pass over the $200k trailer queens, and read about the barn finds, sleepers, home built cars, street fighters, etc. These cars give the guy with average skills and a tight budget some hope....

[70bird]

Interesting discussion! Gotta" get to work.
Subscribing

[sik68]

Ok, I'll play analyst for a bit...

From a young gun's perspective (24), I see the pro-touring (whatever that is) hobby really gaining steam with my generation. We're children of the baby boomers, who grew up in the 60's when these muscle cars were pounding the pavement for the first time. Heck, most of you are baby boomers!

The proverbial wrench is currently being passed down to us Gen Y'ers, inheriting your cars, picking up a project of our own, etc. Our budgets are more modest, so I believe we will be more selective about the modifications we make.

That said, I see the "smart" kids of my generation as being the buyers of quality, functional items to put on their cars. There will be less fluff/eye candy on these cars then some of the builds that have been popped out so far. I also see the "dumb" ones putting 22's on an IROC camaro and calling it pro-touring.

[6'9"Witha69]

Where has PT been? To the track!

Where is it going? To the track!

and any twisty road I can find!

[bwhinnen]

As a relative new comer to the pro-touring family / community / following this is an interesting topic. I've not seen (other than a previous thread from a few years back) anything that definitively says "This is what makes a car pro-touring".

To me it is a want to make a car of a bygone era compete in the modern day marketplace. Now before you all jump up in arms at me saying a bygone era, to me it is, I wasn't born when half of these cars were in production. That is my loss though! However now I can appreciate the styling of these cars, the stance, the demeanor, the pure elegance and beauty of the raw designs. This draws me to them, but 30 - 40 year old technology is not what I want, I want the timeless grace of those cars yet to make them perform like their modern clones.

I do use the word perform very loosely, as this has widely varying definitions to each and everyone of you. To me it is to have a combination of power and torque that is bordering on the insane (well ok not quite that much), yet the ability to happily cruise at 25MPH as easily as it can at well over the state speed limits (read the politically correct way of saying 140MPH+). The motor must be able to pass strict emissions standards as applied to todays cars! It doesn't stop there, there must be handling, and not just that of a luxury sedan, but something that can be driven around a race-circuit, via correct suspension setup. With that, the overwhelming need to stop on a dime. The current mod-cons of an interior is very welcomed too. But as I said, this is my definition of performance and it will vary with importance levels between people, location, generation and sex.

So where do I think pro-touring is headed? Quite frankly into the future, it will not die, it will change and adapt with the changing times and technological advances. Think in 30 years time, our children or grandchildren will take a 2008 / 2009 model Camaro, Challenger, Charger, Mustang, 300, Corvette, heck even a Magnum and adapt these with technology the future equivalent will have! They may even still take a '60's or '70's car and do the very same to it, I'd like to think they will anyway!

So to me pro-touring is not something that can be effectively defined, it is a concept, a feeling and a sense of belonging to a group of people that share similar passions of making the old new again. Wanting to cherish the beauty that is created in a build and yet drive the heck out of them to show the modern car manufacturers that something classical can keep up and surpass their so-called modern marvels. The need to drive these cars, to enjoy them, to challenge them, not to hide them away in the gloom of a garage until the next big car show is also something that binds us all together. Mind you in saying that I think most of us can really appreciate and admire the work that can go into some of the 'show ponies' out there, that they may not be driven all the time is a crying shame in my eyes.

Cheers
Brett

[DarkBuddha]

Is it a good or bad sign that this thread isn't getting more replies? Hmmm...

[cheapthrillz]

Is it a good or bad sign that this thread isn't getting more replies? Hmmm...

Maybe everybody is taking this one seriously... I didn't reply because I would have said mainly what most of the other guys are saying.

But to me, pro-touring is something that I can do to a classic car to make it more fun and comfortable to drive than a new car, and also make it as close to a "racecar" as I will ever be able to have...

[Fawkes]

Agreed. This is a good topic, but it's been pretty well summed up. To me PT is bringing a classic up to date within the imagination/budget of the builder.

Pro Street was always pretty easy to define, but Pro Touring has such a wide range of possibilities that I don't think that one can pigeon hole any specific type of build.

[motorheadmike]

Is it a good or bad sign that this thread isn't getting more replies? Hmmm...

I had a whole rant on high-dollar builds cheapening the hobby/movement. But, I deleted it because it leads to nothing by a bunch of sore wallets... I mean feelings.

I am hoping that PT returns to the days of the Real Street Eliminator type of cars. Cars built by real hobbyists and small shops, tested and compared. There was a lot of innovation back in the early days of the RSE competition.

[andrewb70]

I used to have fairly rigid ideas of what a pro-touring car should or should not be. Check out the sticky on this page:

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11764

That thread is about 2.5 years old and honestly, at this point, I am not so rigid.

I think Brett (post #13) summed it up pretty well and made some excellent points. The fact is that these cars are old. OLD!!! We are talking 30-50 years old! The other fact is that these cars were not that great when they were new. Sure our memories might be dripping with nostalgia and the thought of "the good ol days," but the truth is that these cars were a dime a dozen, and could be purchased by the average Joe. I can understand some people's passion for restoring cars to original specs. Some cars are certainly worth the time and effort due to their unique specifications, rarity, etc. However, if a person wants to enjoy the car by driving it, than restoring to original specifications makes no sense. After all the work is done, you are still left with a 40 year old car that drives like junk.

Take my GTO for instance. I purchased it in 1985 and it was considered a classic back then, while being only 15 years old. How did it drive? Well, like a 15 year old, middle of the road car; kinda crappy. So once I had the means I wanted to improve it. I am still improving it and I am looking forward to putting some miles on it this year.

Andrew

[trapin]

What I see is other segments of the Hot Rodding industry borrowing from us (or stealing as I see it). A perfect example is this supposed "New Pro-Street" which basically is nothing more than a Pro-Street car that rips off the design cues and modifications made popular by Pro-Touring. You could almost argue that Donks were inspired just a little by us (although it's a little embarrasing to admit). No?

[go-fish]

Maybe we can have "Degrees" of Pro-Touring, you know, like Masons.
Big Red would be a 32nd Degree Pro-tourer and a bone stock muscle car with the exception of 16-20 inch wheels would be a first degree.
You see, everyone that has AT LEAST a car with 16" or greater wheels can be in the club.
My car doesn't even move under it's own power yet but I THINK it's PT. I think everyone has a basic idea of what it is all about, driving and having fun, taking twisties, looking good. I don't like labels but if i had to wear one make it say Pro-Touring.

[barraza]

The problem is that Pro-touring as a type of vehicle is very hard to pin down. Everyone knows what a pro-streeter is, we on this site can't even define a protouring car.

Protouring isn't something new. A lot of people seem to think it started with when the term was invented, but the term was just recognition of what already existed. I personally was autocrossing my camaro in the 70's with upgraded brakes and suspension. Was it protouring? It depends, but the car as it sat then wasn't even close to what the minimum is today. Sixteen inch wheels weren't available, and there was no reason because the the biggest brakes would fit in a 15 inch wheel!! Did it fit the equipment definition? No. Did it fit the intent? Yes.

I claim no credit. It's just hot rodding. Guys were doing the same thing in the 1930's. Was the first person to retro fit hydraulic brakes on his car and go racing the start? Who knows, but bigger wheel, bigger brake, and lowered suspension upgrades have been going on forever.

[69stang]

I came to this forum because the Pro-touring philosiphy more appropriately fit what I was after in my 69. Build it to perform on the same level + as modern performance cars and to drive it whenever I felt, everyday if desired. A lot of other forums though full of great information are geared more toward hobby cars and weekend cruisers. I see more people on here that are dedicated to driving and enjoying their rebuilt cars as much as actually building them and not being satisfied with just standing back and saying "look what I built" once done. Frankly, I'd rather take the 20-30k to buy a new car and spend it on building my stang into a modern high performance machine. And that pretty much defines the Pro-touing movement for me.

Now I don't agree with lumping every muscle car into the pro-touring category. A chevelle with just a nice set of wheels, flashy paint and some engine work don't make it PT, its still just a street machine to me. I think modernization in regards to performace, reliability and safety in all systems is key. I think when we see muscle cars from all eras upgraded and just as common on the road as SUVs, then we'll be rolling but we're not there yet. The movement is still growing.

[DarkBuddha]

I think there are lots of folks that are editing themselves or refraining from posting altogether in order to "keep the peace". But I think dissent can be a good thing to some degree, standing up for that which is taken for granted or overlooked. Political correctness, politeness, and turning a blind eye is the same thing as acceptance, which can lead to a bad scene and resentment and ultimately persecution and mob mentality. PT is definitely based in individuality and non-conformity; otherwise all these PT cars would still be drag cars or paint-daub'd restos. The question is, is it worth fighting? Is there value in trying to encourage folks to be more (self) critical and vigilant about where PT comes from and where it is going? Or do we let it blossom (bleed?) out in whatever directions it likes or gets directed?

[motorheadmike]

I think there are lots of folks that are editing themselves or refraining from posting altogether in order to "keep the peace". But I think dissent can be a good thing to some degree, standing up for that which is taken for granted or overlooked. Political correctness, politeness, and turning a blind eye is the same thing as acceptance, which can lead to a bad scene and resentment and ultimately persecution and mob mentality. PT is definitely based in individuality and non-conformity; otherwise all these PT cars would still be drag cars or paint-daub'd restos. The question is, is it worth fighting? Is there value in trying to encourage folks to be more (self) critical and vigilant about where PT comes from and where it is going? Or do we let it blossom (bleed?) out in whatever directions it likes or gets directed?

Buddy, you have no idea how right you are. I tried to shed some light on the situation but all I found were a bunch of demonicly possessed sandy Vaginas lurking in their shadows justifying their services, wares, shops and inflated cheque books.:candle:

[andrewb70]

I think both of you guys are a little rigid in your ideas. There is nothing wrong with being passionate about these cars and the PT build style, but I think your taking this just a little too seriously. We are just a bunch of grown men playing with toys. Nothing more, nothing less. We aren't solving the world's problems and we sure as hell aren't going to change the world. So have a seat, relax, enjoy the cars, and have a good time. This is fun damn it!

Andrew

[oorange67]

I think there are different degrees of "pro-touring" cars some are almost race car type's of cars with the classis styling and modern performance options, like 5.4 mod motors and ls series motors and the new 5.7 & 6.1 hemi's with od transmissions and trick suspensions. On the other side we have big wheels, power windows, cruise control and ac and then there is everything in between. I like them all and my personal cars are a FI 5.0 w/aod 71 mercury cougar candy red xr7 convertible with a/c and power windows and 18's Soon it will be recieving a 347 stroker kit wilwoods a 4 link rear and coilovers in front with a set of three piece wheels, but I'm keeping the luxury options. My other old car is a 71 SS chevelle with a smallblock, auto,stock style paint with SS stripes and foose 20's with a late model vette brake system. More resto mod in my opinion.I also love newer performance cars my DD is a Chrysler 300C with the hemi and 22's and my wife's DD is a Trailblazer SS w/LS2, and we have a C5 vette also. In summary I think "pro-touring" is diverse enough to last quite awhile as long as the cars remain usable and drivable, if all we admire is the show queens that are too nice to enjoy our beloved style will just become boring "Show Cars"

[trapin]

I think both of you guys are a little rigid in your ideas. There is nothing wrong with being passionate about these cars and the PT build style, but I think your taking this just a little too seriously. We are just a bunch of grown men playing with toys. Nothing more, nothing less. We aren't solving the world's problems and we sure as hell aren't going to change the world. So have a seat, relax, enjoy the cars, and have a good time. This is fun damn it!

Andrew
That pretty much says it all right there. Signed, sealed, and delivered.

[Steve Chryssos]

That pretty much says it all right there. Signed, sealed, and delivered.

Naw, I can do better than that Andrew guy. :slap: Like this:

The best way to voice your dissent (or agreement) is by channeling that passion into your project. Let the car do the talking.

Like that.

[parsonsj]

Good discussion.


The best way to voice your dissent (or agreement) is by channeling that passion into your project. Let the car do the talking.
Yep. I can say it now: a finished car is the way to proclaim your own definition of Pro-Touring. :)

jp

[70bird]

Having been a late 70’s teen, (got my driver’s license in 77) I remember this basic build style way before it had name. Here in SoCal, I remember seeing cars on the street (mostly 2nd F bodies and a few Mustangs) that were lowered, with big tires front and rear. Generally, modified to improve handling and power. Many emulating the Trans-Am or IMSA styling, Huge wheel flares and all .I remember people calling them “road racers” or just “racers”. These cars were often built using whatever OEM or junkyard parts you could find and, What can I say? The best tires out there were like T/A radials or a set of Road hugger radials. Anyone remember before tires were metric? LOL !! L60-15’s were the hot ticket! In the mid 80”s, when the Corvette and IROC”s etc. started wearing 16’s with Gator backs and later Z rated radials everything changed for the better, thankfully. I remember lusting over a set of wheels and tires like that.

In my mind that’s where PT started. Or, has been.

Where’s PT going? The sky is the limit if you have the bucks. As many have said here, the term PT, in and of itself is subjective, and there are no real hard and fast rules, and is open to the builders interpretation to a large degree.

IMO, as someone else in this thread mentioned, The original RSE cars are the blueprint for a PT car, More function over form, but with modern creature comforts such as A/C and a reasonably comfortable ride so you can actually enjoy the “Touring” part.

Although I am not big into labels, I believe the term Pro Touring has in itself been a benefit to our hobby. As more people have jumped on the band wagon, so to speak, the aftermarket parts companies have responded and made these parts more readily available and affordable.

And, I think it goes without saying without the term Pro-Touring, we wouldn't be here enjoying this discussion.

[muthstryker]

Thought I might chime in, I first joined this forum because of what pro-touring was at the time. "Making an old (MUSCLE CAR) handel, After time I started to see changes. Newer trucks, newer cars, imports all being called "pro-touring" dont get me wrong I LOVE every single build here it doesnt matter what car/truck it is. I just think pro-touring has gone in a different direction then it was lets say the last year or so.


Something started to bug me recently though, going to a classic car dealer ship and having a 68 camaro say "Pro-Touring car!" on it. I asked the sells guy what had been done to is suspension wise, motor ect ect. it was completly stock with the exception of some 18 inch wheels and tires. Honestly the term "Pro-Touring" gets thrown around too loosely because you have greedy sellers thinking that if they call it a pro-touring car they will get 50k+ for it.

Just my thought. mods can delete if they find "offensive" it is not directed towards anyone and dont want to hurt anyones feelings.

Sincerly Matt

[DarkBuddha]

I highly suspect this is the same sort of thing that happened to pro-street in it's heyday. Hopefully, anyway. That way only the hardcore will be left at the end, and there will be a ton of overdone PT cars available for pennies on the dollar. :rolleyes:

[JohnUlaszek]

Over the years this board has seen the definition of "pro-touring" discussed ad nauseam and hindsight, for far too many, has failed to open minds or provide clarity to what the "movement" is about.

I have never seen a movement so unsure of itself, but if you look at the time line of this board, there has indeed been a trend.

Five years ago, no self respecting "pro-touring" car would have had wheels bigger than 17" -- the new ZR1 has 20's out back. Technology and innovation keep changing the rules.

It's time to stop asking what the definition of pro-touring is and ask why it's so hard to define.

[TonyL]

Because the moment you define it, it's established and done. It's isn't evolving and can therefore die. Just like pro-street did. Oh, go ahead and tell me all about how there's more pro-street cars than ever in your area. But look at the media. No one cares. People don't even look anymore. Pro-street was all about the definition of itself, the qualifications of being pro-street. The thing that keeps pro-touring moving is that it is more about chasing what is ideal. What's "ideal" is an ever changing target. What once was the top of the line, and the most you could expect of a car has changed and is no longer the ideal combination of stuff any more.

For pro-street all you could do was build a street pro-gas car nicer than the last one. More chrome, bigger engine, nicer paint etc.

I just picked up a PHR magazine and there's a 3 page story on a Pro-touring late 70s camaro with the paint burned off by the Arizona sun, and it's so cool it makes me want one just like it.

[JohnUlaszek]

I just opened PHR and saw two completely different corvairs -- I want them both, and that Camaro rocks.

[navyflyer72]

The description "pro-touring" means different things to different people, as evidenced by the simple fact that there are VERY few builds (if any) that are exactly the same. We are caught up in the same rat race that the computer whiz's are in, the search for optimum performance, we just choose to start with an older base (the muscle car) and we aim for perfection in some (sometimes all) aspects of our builds: suspension, engine, interior, body, paint, etc...

The fact that you can find newer (post 1972) cars and even trucks being described as "pro-touring" just goes to support the evolving definition of pro-touring, it IS a constantly evolving style that will go where the technology takes it. What was cutting edge yesterday could be old news, or even found to decrease performance, which means it will go the way of the dinosaur. The more people that join the hobby, the more we will inspire companies to invest money in research and development. This equates to newer, hopefully better performing, parts for our cars. It is a self-generating cycle.

It is for these reasons that "Pro-Touring" is likely to have a longer lifespan in the media than Pro-Street simply because it will change with the times... who knows maybe the name will change with the times also... but the bottom line here is that we want to make the cars that we see as beautiful and timeless perform at the levels of todays top notch productions cars (Z06, Mustang, etc...) because when our cars rolled off the production line that's the level they were at.

-George

[JohnUlaszek]

Can't wait to see the first Pro-Hyrbrids, or Pro-Electrics.

[motorheadmike]

The thing that keeps pro-touring moving is that it is more about chasing what is ideal. What's "ideal" is an ever changing target. What once was the top of the line, and the most you could expect of a car has changed and is no longer the ideal combination of stuff any more.


A very reasonable qualification.



I just picked up a PHR magazine and there's a 3 page story on a Pro-touring late 70s camaro with the paint burned off by the Arizona sun, and it's so cool it makes me want one just like it.

Heath Elmer's car? Yeah, that guy has set a trend or two in his day. The best part about that car is under and inside it is all a progression toward "ideal". The only problem? Within 6 months we will see 40 other sun beaten cars hitting print, all replicas inspired by one idea. W2W broached it most recently (http://www.w2wpowertrain.com/t-novabuild-2.aspx), few cars get my attention any longer; this was one of them.

[DarkBuddha]

Look... it's all fine, and it's all screwed up. Everyone can build, believe, and say whatever they want, but you can always divine the essence, sincerity, and earnestness of it in spite of itself. And I guess that's what I'm digging at here.

The influx of interest, money, and press seems to brought lots of folks from lots of different perspectives. That's great, but I get the feeling that a lot of folks have less interest in "going PT" than finding a way of making whatever they're already into fit under the umbrella of whatever is the current/new hot thing. This is how we get stock suspension'd cars with big wheels claiming to be PT. Or drag cars that start running fat tires up front claiming to be PT. Etc., etc., etc. It's the same with dilettantes, fashion victims, copycats, fairground pimps, and "investors". It's the nature of becoming popular.

My point is that while the enthusiasm may be great and they may appreciate the attractiveness of PT, but the sincerity and earnestness seems off. We can hope they find what PT really represents and can be, its nature, but I think we all know that many (most?) won't. The really excellent news is that there will be lots of folks that have and will come to it with great sincerity. I just hope they find the response and support and knowledge they're looking for and don't get lost in the noise and distraction of the "crap". Political correctness and blanket acceptance is not the answer. Constructively critical, honest, and enthusiastic opinions are.

That was what I'm trying to get at here. The new, young, true, ambitious, gung-ho, vigilant, intense deserve to be met in earnest. And while their enthusiasm and intensity may seem out of proportion, it doesn't seem right to diminish it by belittling their aspirations and endeavors. I'd rather spend time with an over-enthusiastic but misguided, ambitious, hothead than some over-seasoned, seen-it-all, boring koolkat. Hot is cooler than cool.

But hey, it's JMHO and I could be all alone here. I'm okay with that, 'cause at least I'm having fun again.

[bnickel]

i think it's already been summed up, at least to me, anyway. PT started with the cafe racers/canyon carvers of the late 70's/early 80's. anyone remember the Monroe Handler mustang II? that was right around the beginning of the PT movement it just wasn't called that then, and over time it has evolved as the technology and times have changed. the core of of it then and now is to improve a car, in most cases an older muscle or pony car, to handle better, accelerate better and stop better and be more comfortable while looking different than any other car like it on the road......period!!!!! end of discussion.

that said i will agree that trucks and foreign cars don't really fit into the whole PT scene and for the most part they have own "categories" trucks have been doing similar things to PT cars for a long time....they are called Sport Trucks, now could Sport Trucks be a seperate and wholly unique segment of the PT movement? of course but those types of builds have already been "defined", so to speak, yes they could be considered PT but they are really something else that is similar to PT, maybe Pro-utility or something. :seizure:

the point is that most builds are getting more and more similar to what PT is all about that they get lumped into the same category as PT when they really aren't but are so similar it's hard to tell the difference, which is fine with me, it means that we have had a profound impact on the entire hobby, hell even street rods are starting to be more and more like PT cars.

i do have to say though, that i really prefer the earlier low buck canyon carver/RSE type builds to some of the higher dollar "checkbook" rides that we are seeing but i like them all, even the "PT trucks".

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

back from the dead

[bnickel]

back from the dead

P/T or me? LOL, i've been absent from the PT forum for quite a while

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

the thread..

and welcome back.

[bnickel]

kinda figured it was the thread but thought i'd ask anyway in case it wasn't.

[jerome]

I'm not a fan of how pro-touring is moving towards buy rather than build. Here's some examples:

Instead of buying coilovers - figure out how to cut the spring pocket, design/weld on a bracket for the top, and move the bottom out to the ball joint to get a better motion ration, use a coilover with spherical ends.

Instead of buying a g-bar/lateraldynamics/other rear suspension - design a satchell link and weld it in. Design a 3-link and weld it in, figure out how to rework the leaf spring mounts for more anti-squat, figure a way to put in spherical bearings and use a panhard

Instead of posting on threads, waiting for billet gas caps to come in - do something different, hinge your tailight and figure out how to make it fill from there, hinge your license plate...do something creative, make a gas cap. Then you can say to your friends, "yeah I made that out of ______, isn't it sweet" rather than, "yeah i spent 300 on this". Go to a junkyard and find some old hinges and reverse your hood instead of paying 800 for some billet hinges.


_____________________________

WHY AREN'T THERE THREADS ABOUT THIS KIND OF STUFF????

"I'm trying to do ____________ (insert crazy idea about improving handling, braking, functionality, etc...), nobody makes this product, here's my idea, does anybody have tips on how i can do this better?"

We've lost the most important aspect of hotrodding, INNOVATION and CREATIVITY...where are the fabricator and hotrodders that come up with new, awesome ideas? Build sheets now read with the names of all the sponsors of the site...There should be pieces of your car that don't have a brand name on them...They should be made/done by YOUUU. That makes it YOUR CAR.

I'm not talking about things like bolting-on a set of AFX spindles (I'm "guilty" of this too)...that's buying a part and putting it on. Everyone regardless of fabrication skill or budget should be able to do something unique on their car, whether its because of need, availability, budget, or just for ****s and giggles. Start threads about this stuff, not questions about Brand A vs. Brand B, or how's this combo sound...Insert laundry list of DSE, AME, ATS parts. That's boring...those companies have websites where you can read about their products. I want to hear how you solved a unique problem and made your car better.

[bnickel]

I'm not a fan of how pro-touring is moving towards buy rather than build. Here's some examples:

Instead of buying coilovers - figure out how to cut the spring pocket, design/weld on a bracket for the top, and move the bottom out to the ball joint to get a better motion ration, use a coilover with spherical ends.

Instead of buying a g-bar/lateraldynamics/other rear suspension - design a satchell link and weld it in. Design a 3-link and weld it in, figure out how to rework the leaf spring mounts for more anti-squat, figure a way to put in spherical bearings and use a panhard

Instead of posting on threads, waiting for billet gas caps to come in - do something different, hinge your tailight and figure out how to make it fill from there, hinge your license plate...do something creative, make a gas cap. Then you can say to your friends, "yeah I made that out of ______, isn't it sweet" rather than, "yeah i spent 300 on this". Go to a junkyard and find some old hinges and reverse your hood instead of paying 800 for some billet hinges.


_____________________________

WHY AREN'T THERE THREADS ABOUT THIS KIND OF STUFF????

"I'm trying to do ____________ (insert crazy idea about improving handling, braking, functionality, etc...), nobody makes this product, here's my idea, does anybody have tips on how i can do this better?"

We've lost the most important aspect of hotrodding, INNOVATION and CREATIVITY...where are the fabricator and hotrodders that come up with new, awesome ideas? Build sheets now read with the names of all the sponsors of the site...There should be pieces of your car that don't have a brand name on them...They should be made/done by YOUUU. That makes it YOUR CAR.

I'm not talking about things like bolting-on a set of AFX spindles (I'm "guilty" of this too)...that's buying a part and putting it on. Everyone regardless of fabrication skill or budget should be able to do something unique on their car, whether its because of need, availability, budget, or just for ****s and giggles. Start threads about this stuff, not questions about Brand A vs. Brand B, or how's this combo sound...Insert laundry list of DSE, AME, ATS parts. That's boring...those companies have websites where you can read about their products. I want to hear how you solved a unique problem and made your car better.

i'd love to do exactly that only problem is that if i had to rely on my welding skills the car would probably fall apart before i go to the end of the block. LOL. i'm much better at coming with an idea for something than i am at actually building it.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

well if you had a 70 LTD or a 66 bonneville then you would HAVE to fabricate something..

if you have fairly common car like a 69 stang or 68 camaro.. when WHY WOULD YOU?.. unless youre a slick type genius that can beat the product.



We've lost the most important aspect of hotrodding, INNOVATION and CREATIVITY...where are the fabricator and hotrodders that come up with new, awesome ideas? Build sheets now read with the names of all the sponsors of the site...There should be pieces of your car that don't have a brand name on them...They should be made/done by YOUUU. That makes it YOUR CAR.

um.. I think youre buggin on this one..
majority of my build is being done by the good fellas at Road Killer Kustoms.. they are doing the work on the car.. LOTS of fabrication.. if youve been there youd know.. BUT..
the whole design, parts choice, every last customization and design cue was ALL my choice.. and I scoured the junkyards and the net to achieve MY goal on the car. is that not creative and innovative?

so.. youre saying that since i bought a AME frame.. or someone is handling work i havent been trained in.. the car isnt MINE?
dude you dun bumped yo head..
hell why not fabricate my wheels!.. while im at it why not i fabricate a whole new engine.. a new type.. ill call it LS-MINE
to me it seems like you want the credit of saying..
"I made that myself with nobodys help but mine and mine alone DAMMMIT!"

ahahha..

no.

and if anything i think that this time is a wonderful time for us hotrodders.. we can spend more time building a unique car.. rather than trying to fix problems and fabricating something we dont have.. there are more cool things for our cars now than there has EVER been,.

cant hate that!

[Steve Chryssos]

It's hard enough just to buy a car, build a car, fuel a car, and keep a car running without someone else telling me how I should do things.

I'm sure this guy.....

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/06/250813067_0b63a83b1f-1.jpg?v=0

.....did plenty of cutting and welding with junkyard parts. But there's no way I'm gonna follow his lead. He went his way, I'll go mine.

Cutting/welding/junkyard is not the lowest common denominator.

Get it, build it your way, drive it, fix it. THAT formula is the lowest common denominator in hot rodding.

[jerome]

vengeance, I think you got me a bit wrong. I see what your'e sayin' and I agree. It's a great time to have a 67-69 camaro, you have everything at your fingertips, everything you need...nothing needs to be fabricated. And I wouldn't expect anybody to build a frame instead of buying an AME frame...hell, I hope one day to use an AME frame in a build.

Maybe it's just cause most cars on here have readily available parts. What I'm saying is that discussion on here seems to be moving towards, "Who do I buy this from?" instead of "How do I do this?"

I'm not saying everyone should be cutting and welding and being mad fabricators, but everyone should have new ideas, whether its making an RFID pushbutton start switch, or dreaming up a new front spoiler, or designing the next new rear suspension link arrangement. It could be something as simple as figuring out how to place speakers in stock door panels. It could be something like a new choice for paint color like the Prowler orange Bad Penny used. Nudged everybody to think about using OEM colors.

I'm just saying that these kinds of discussions should be dominating the board. That's how pro-touring got started, a bunch of guys thinking about how to make their cars corners. Pro-touring will not reach its full potential by sitting around and waiting for the next great thing from DSE. Yes those products are great and better than anything I can make. If I have a need for it, yes I will be happy to buy it. But I sure as hell will find something on the car, even if it's just a concept to call my own. Cookie-cutter cars that just the latest, greatest combination of parts...yes, they are definitively pro-touring. But no, they don't bring a single thing to the table.

Edit: Looking at the forum, Project Updates forum is full of this kind of stuff, VW Bugs w/ big blocks, chevettes, all kinds of cars with tons of creativity. Maybe it's just that I see all the same questions asked in the suspension forum about drop springs, control arms, and this kit vs. that kit...with a few lone "look at the suspension i'm making" threads.

[JamesJ]

Pro-Touring
Pro = Professional
Touring = a street car that has been modified

As more people get involved more people will spend more, do more, that will make it more "pro"

I could care less about a custom interior and do not like them but that does not make a car less pro-touring, it just takes it pass the car that does not and makes it more "pro" then the next one.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

got you wrong?



Instead of buying a g-bar/lateraldynamics/other rear suspension - design a...

Instead of posting on threads, waiting for billet gas caps to come in..

i think i got you just right...
and with 183 posts.. or maybe youre lurking mosty..

but you must not have been paying attention.. folk on here ARE formulating plans and such.. ALSO.. i havent seen you involved in any discussion that is groundbreaking and helps others "create and innovate"
you saying "what about using OEM color".. dude.. are you serious?!.. thats a common topic! and bad penny as groundbreaking as it is didnt start the OEM color craze..

maybe you should rock the search button.. and youll get those innovative and creative people you seek, just cause you glance at the board right now doesnt mean those attitudes havent happened.. besides..there are a few guys including me that are holding on to a couple surprises to wow our comrades and spark even more creativity and innovation.. just cause you cant readilly read and see the hottest newest custom modzzz at your fingertips we are still doing them..

and if that was the case.. go visit a competitive shop/ or a slick pt'ers garage and see whats cookin.. might not find a thread on that.

champ.

[bnickel]

Pro-Touring
Pro = Professional
Touring = a street car that has been modified

As more people get involved more people will spend more, do more, that will make it more "pro"

I could care less about a custom interior and do not like them but that does not make a car less pro-touring, it just takes it pass the car that does not and makes it more "pro" then the next one.

touring actually means a car that you can drive cross country...you know go on a tour, that was what PT was originally all about, not just a modified car but one that's realiable enough you can drive cross country. power tour and pro touring kind of go hand in hand. if you can build a car that handles better, stops better, is more powerful yet reliable enough to drive anywhere, anytime and looks different than anything else than that is a pro touring car, be it a muscle car or any old car or yes even a truck or whatever

[bigvegan]

Jerome does have a point, I think the more work YOU are able to do on your car and the more custom solutions YOU are able to build for your car, the better off you are.

I mean, any jackass with a checkbook and a catalog can order up a nice custom car, but I'm not sure that's really what people have in mind when they think of hotrodding.

Obviously there's a sliding scale on this, as most people aren't going to go out and forge their own steel or harvest their own rubber, and some work is always going to need to be done by the pros, but bank account hotrodding is a little bit sad. There just isn't that much pride to be had in saying "No, I didn't do any of the work, but I sure picked out the parts and the color scheme and the wheel choices myself."

But hey, it's a free country. If you've got the $ and the catalogs, you can order up whatever you want and ignore us internet jackasses.

As for where pro-touring's headed, I think it's headed to Electro-Touring if gas prices don't come down.

Once the Chevy Volt comes on-line, it's not going to be too long before people figure out how to modify those A123 battery systems and gear them for more power. (They've already got an electric motorcycle running 7 second 1/4 miles, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killacycle.) With all the space a musclecar has, there's plenty of room for batteries.

I mean, who wouldn't want a hot rod that ran sub-10 second quarter miles and still got 30-40+mpg?

[bnickel]

don't forget that a lot of people just write the checks for the parts and do all the other work themselves, i would probably fall more into that category, though i will do some junkyard engineering projects too, just depends on what is i want and how much its worth to me to build it or modify vs just being able to buy it, sometimes it can cost less to buy a new something or other than it can be to scrounge one up from somwhere, modify it, clean it, paint and detail it and then install it.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

yes i hear what your saying..

but.. i think it comes from a mentality of an Amish retard.


hahahaa

anyways.. so where pt going.. hopefully twords interesting builds.. id like to see more theme builds..
and hopefully less opinions on fabricating a shoehorn.. hahaha

[indyjps]

I see a lot of "parts boasting" going on, high dollar supsension that will never be used to its potential, improperly matched components for the sake that we can post on this board or others that we bought the blah blah from whoever. I also see many basically identical cars being built since the same kit type components are being used. I see a lot of show cars being built, this kind of one-upsmanship is similar to escalation of pro-street from the pro stockers of the track being built into ridiculously tubbed plated non functioning vehicles that peaked with the multi striped Pontiac hatchback J2000 or whatever it was.
this post may draw some flack, but its my opinion on the direction this is all going.
Everyone has their own take on how they want to build their own car, I personally dont like 20" wheels, air rides, and some of the ricer inspired themes that have been coming in lately, but its their car. I think the vision has slipped some to bling items instead of functional performance based upgrades to make older cars handle and perform better.

[amx2334]

I agree there is alot of "catalog engineering". On the other hand you have to hand it to the guys making the parts.
It's the natural progression of any hobby. Eventually someone with more money will go over the top.Rat rodding is big money now. Irony? I hope it goes away soon.Along with donks. what are they up to now for rims? 24"?

[DarkBuddha]

Geez, I was sure this thread was dead for sure... it's such a touchy subject.

There are some ideals from the original p-t cars that I kinda miss. Either the grassroots approach or the hardcore race approach. It seems that parts availability and technology have tamed both a bit. Heck, for those of us that started trying to build our p-t type cars back in the early '90s on our 17 year old kid budgets, many are now trying to redo everything on our cars to "catch up", replacing cut coils with coilovers, or replacing optional "quick ratio" boxes with rack&pinion. Personally I miss seeing a car where someone made the most of what was there to work with in the first place, or adapting "upgrade" parts from another model or make.

And let's face it, relatively cheap standalone fuel/spark management systems have made it possible to totally skip building hardcore race car motors to get 400+hp. Now you can get that with a quiet unnoticeable idle, good drivability, a/c, power brakes, blah, blah, blah, but no viscerality or character.

And with this trend towards pre-built billet parts and technology, it sorta prices out many of the younger and poorer folks that get disenchanted and disillusioned when they can't pop $2500 for a subframe, or $8000 on an LS1 conversion, or $3000 on 14" brakes. And at this point, lots of the old junkyard swap/conversion stuff is lost to the new folks... they just get the catalogs or visit the websites and gawk at the powder coated shiny new laser cut gems of CAD drafted engineering. I suspect cleaning grease off parts is becoming a lost art. Sigh...

[formula]

only note i'd like to make, as always, is that air-ride IS functional, as long as you're willing to push it. I daily-drive my bird, and there is no other way in this world that I could make my car handle as well as it does AND be able to handle all the different road conditions I subject it to. I have 12" tall speed bumps in my neighborhood, ferchrissake! You show me any other way (short of completely reengineering the undercarriage) I can have a car lowered AT ALL and still clear those ever day, and I'll yank my air ride out tomorrow.

As for where P-T is going....here is where I HOPE it is going. I sincerely hope that the paycheck rides continue to get more and more exotic and amazing. Just like the highest levels of racing, the stuff that they do trickles down through our hobby to the normal people over time, and I think a lot of the innovation happening today is not necessarily using a brand-spanking-new idea, but figuring out instead how to make that same idea better, cheaper, faster, and smarter.

I also hope that the budget rods continue to grow, as they will. Just like having no budget, having an especially tight budget seems to push people to come up with more and more amazing ideas. An interesting new "trickle-up" trend seems to be developing, where a lot of the bare-bones stuff some of us normal folks have to do is being recognized as highly cool and very trick.

I don't mean for this to be offensive at all, but I feel like the common denominator here is the mid-level car--not super-crazy expensive, but not bolt-down-the-tool-box-and-sit-on-it cheap either. Unfortunately, it's very rare to see a lot of innovation from this group in any hobby--but this group is also the lifeblood of the hobby, expanding it and growing it in popularity every day.

Ultimately, all three groups are highly necessary to the continued growth of the smartest, most intelligent style of hot-rodding I've ever experienced.

I also agree that the movement will be the first in hot rodding to adopt hybrid and electric technology. This is where the ball MUST roll, and I am already planning a dream hybrid project for the future. Other things I hope to see in the near future are more safety advances--highly compact steering wheel airbags, abs, and other safety systems modified from factory setups could enhance the driveability of our cars greatly, and protect us in the process.

[formula]

what are they up to now for rims? 24"?



hahahahahahahahhahhahaha you are so 2005! We rollin 30+" now, mayn!

Horrible disgrace to the paint job on 30"
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

and....the most ridiculous thing ever...asanti's new 34" wheels.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

yeeeeaaaaaa boooyyeeeeeeeeeee!!!!

[amx2334]

Make it stop. Please,I beg,make it stop.