1970 GTO Version 2.0

[WS6]

Very nice! How were your 60' times?

[andrewb70]

Very nice! How were your 60' times?

Crappy. 2.0x

Andrew

[Ron S]

I think crappy 60' times are inherent in stick cars without sticky tires.Have you ever tried the car with a set of slicks,I know that car could get much lower in into the 12s with alittle bite{of course thats when you start breaking stuff}.Love the car Andrew.Ron

[andrewb70]

I think crappy 60' times are inherent in stick cars without sticky tires.Have you ever tried the car with a set of slicks,I know that car could get much lower in into the 12s with alittle bite{of course thats when you start breaking stuff}.Love the car Andrew.Ron

Thanks for the compliments Ron. I realyl enjoyed meeting you and seeing you rip around in your Mustang. It looks bitchen! When I had the big block in the car I ran some MT ET streets. I was able to get my 60' time down into the 1.8x second range on a consistent basis. I really don't think that I would hurt anything in the car by running sticky tires. I just don't feel like pushing it at the moment. I'm having too much fun just driving the car.

Andrew

[7TSS]

Definitely seems like you're having a lot of fun now.
Have you already done the faceplating on the tranny? If so how do you like it?

[andrewb70]

Definitely seems like you're having a lot of fun now.
Have you already done the faceplating on the tranny? If so how do you like it?

I haven't done the faceplating, and I am not sure that I will anytime soon. For once I used sound judgment and decided not to tear apart a perfectly good running car and spend money I don't have. LOL

Andrew

[7TSS]

Thanks for the reply. I know what you mean about spending needed money on luxuries. Been there many times over lol. Your car is bad@$$ just the way it sits.

[jackfrost]

For once I used sound judgment and decided not to tear apart a perfectly good running car and spend money I don't have. LOL


I wonder what that's like. :razz:

[Donovan]

How's that LS7 cam treating you these days? Still thinking on getting a set of 1.8s for it or doing a cam swap?

[andrewb70]

How's that LS7 cam treating you these days? Still thinking on getting a set of 1.8s for it or doing a cam swap?

I think a set of 1.8 rockers would be great. Honestly, at this point in my life, I am not thinking about changing anything! LOL

The LS7 cam drives great, makes awesome torque, and is easy on the valve train. Can I make more power? Sure! But I am not willing to make the sacrifice in drivability to do it.

Andrew

[LSX1STGEN]

Andrew, Since you did this, do you know of a way to determine if an L92 has DOD or not. I am in your boat, and hoped that now your knew of a way to determine dod w/o pulling the valley cover.

Also, can you tell me how you ran your pcv system?

BTW - we met at the Canton GA cruise in a few months ago.

Thanks,

Clay


Parts are slowly starting to trickle in. I got the proper cam gear to use with the LS7 cam. I also got a take off C6 water pump.

For the sake of my sanity, I removed the lifter valley cover just to double check that this engine does not have Displacement on Demand. It does not.

https://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo09.jpg

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Andrew, Since you did this, do you know of a way to determine if an L92 has DOD or not. I am in your boat, and hoped that now your knew of a way to determine dod w/o pulling the valley cover.

Also, can you tell me how you ran your pcv system?

BTW - we met at the Canton GA cruise in a few months ago.

Thanks,

Clay

Hi Clay!

None of the L92s have DoD. That feature was only on the truck engines, not the SUVs. I actually don't have my PCV system hooked up yet, but its pretty simple. On truck engines there is no vent tube in the valley cover. The nipple on the driver's side valve cover goes to the intake manofold. The nipple from the passanger side valve cover goes to a filtered air source, before the MAF. It's that easy.

Andrew

[LSX1STGEN]

Cool. Thanks for the info. We are stabbing the Mast cam this weekend. We opted to keep VVT and run mast's controller and cam. I can't wait to hear it run.

Keep an eye on our project in the updates forum.

When are you headed back down south?

Thanks again! Clay

[LSX1STGEN]

Andrew, I PM'D you yesterday. Did you get it? We have some trouble with the VVT Phaser mod to keep our VVT. I am looking for the VVT phaser part that you took off. Please help. :crying:

Thanks,

Clay


Today I took off the truck balancer and the front cover. This is what the VVT system looks like:

https://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo12.jpg

The VVT cam use a single bolt to attach the cam gear and VVT mechanism:

https://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo13.jpg

The LS7 cam uses the typical 3 bolt style cam gear. You just have to make sure to get the correct gear with the right pattern of bumps for the cam sensor. I got mine as a handy little kit from Lingenfelter.

https://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo14.jpg

Once the cam was installed I bolted on an LS2 from cover along with a C6 water pump and balancer. With the exception of the hollow stem valves, and of course the LS7 cam, this is pretty much an LS3 now.

https://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo15.jpg

I also installed the AutoKraft oilpan. I really wanted to use an OEM style cast pan, but no one seems to agree what pan will work best. So I went with something that is proven to fit and retains the oil filter in the stock location.

https://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo16.jpg

Tomorrow I will be installing some Patriot Gold dual springs and doing some minor detailing.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Clay,

I responded to your PM.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Hello everyone. I really don't have a whole lot to report with this build. For now it is done. I had some changes in my life recently. All for the better. I am no longer living in KY, but in Memphis. With my move, a lack of space, and money, I had to store the car. It's currently living a quiet life in Lincoln, NE, with my friend Brian, who painted the car. If things go according to plan I hope to be driving the car around Kentucky this summer, a lot!!! Stay tuned for any developments on that.

One thing I did want to mention about my engine combination. The valve train is a little bit noisy. I have done some research and it appears that the LS7 cam has a slightly smaller base circle than the L92 cam. In retrospect, I should have gotten push rods that are a hair longer. I know several people have been doing similar a combination of parts, so I wanted to pass along my thoughts. If anyone is in the process of installing an LS7 cam, double check all the measurements and see if I am correct. The fix is simple and I plan on doing it in the spring.

Andrew

[Steve68]

Good luck Andrew, at least the car runs and my you drive it sooner than later,

[OLDFLM]

Best of luck to you my friend in Memphis!!!

[John Wright]

Nice thread.....I enjoyed the two hours worth of reading...

[FoxGranadaChuck]

Hello everyone. I really don't have a whole lot to report with this build. For now it is done. I had some changes in my life recently. All for the better. I am no longer living in KY, but in Memphis. With my move, a lack of space, and money, I had to store the car. It's currently living a quiet life in Lincoln, NE, with my friend Brian, who painted the car. If things go according to plan I hope to be driving the car around Kentucky this summer, a lot!!! Stay tuned for any developments on that.

One thing I did want to mention about my engine combination. The valve train is a little bit noisy. I have done some research and it appears that the LS7 cam has a slightly smaller base circle than the L92 cam. In retrospect, I should have gotten push rods that are a hair longer. I know several people have been doing similar a combination of parts, so I wanted to pass along my thoughts. If anyone is in the process of installing an LS7 cam, double check all the measurements and see if I am correct. The fix is simple and I plan on doing it in the spring.

Andrew


Welcome to Tennessee, my friend. I live in the exact polar end of the state. Titling and registering your car should be nice and relatively cheap.

[Brad1970]

What brand are your springs front & back. What are their sizes? (9 1/2" x 5"??) Where can I find them? You wouldn't happen to have part #'s would you?

[andrewb70]

What brand are your springs front & back. What are their sizes? (9 1/2" x 5"??) Where can I find them? You wouldn't happen to have part #'s would you?

I got the springs from Coleman Racing. They have a pigtail on one side and they are 9.5" tall.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Hello Everyone.

It has been almost a year since I last updated this thread. Once again, due to the circumstances in my life, the GTO has found itself in storage. I moved to Memphis last year to pursue a PhD in marketing. My current living situation doesn't allow for any sort of secure storage of the GTO, so it spent 2009 with my friend Brian, in Nebraska. Brian did the body work and paint on my car and if anyone is looking for a reliable body man, please PM me. Business started to pick up for Brian in the spring and as a result the car is now at an undisclosed location in Tennessee.

However, the journey from Nebraska to Tennessee was not without some adventures. About 60 miles from Kansas City the shifter handle started shaking and there was a terrible noise that was emanating from the transmission. By the sheer mercy and generosity of several people I was able to get the car to Tennessee. Upon further inspection it was determined that one of the mainshaft support bearings had failed in my Richmond 6 speed. As everyone might recall, I have battled some vibration issues in the past, and I am convinced that this caused the pre-mature failure of the bearing. The failed bearing was simply a manifestation of a problem with the driveline, not an inherent problem with the Richmond 6 speed.

I would really like to attend some events next summer, so I will be making the GTO drivable again. In the spirit of keeping my GTO up to date, I will be swapping the Richmond transmission for something else. So stay tuned for more details. I will be documenting the installation in great detail.

Andrew

[David Sloan]

Good to here from you Anderw,
Hope we can hook up at some of the events next year!!
If there is any thing i can help with let me know.

[Steve68]

As David said, good to hear from you!!!

Keep us updated,

I'm finally getting ready to do a post on my 68, I think it's in form enough to make a post about!

[andrewb70]

I had an opportunity to visit my car and to pull the transmission. My sincere gratitude goes to Bill Howell. He not only helped me pull the transmission, but he also built a killer crate to ship it.

Here is the Richmond 6 speed, just pulled out from under the car. I may really get used to working with a lift. Sure beats pulling a transmission on your back!

https://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo138.jpg

Here is Bill, hard at work, measuring twice and cutting once.

https://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo139.jpg

Progress....

https://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo140.jpg

Packed up, and ready to be shipped off to my friend, John Parsons, for a rebuild.

https://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo141.jpg

Stay tuned for more progress and a new transmission.

Andrew

[wiedemab]

Cool - - Glad to see you had some time to work on it. That Bill guy is a pretty good dude...............

[andrewb70]

So yesterday I was playing around with the video capabilities of my new camera. Look what I captured...

y5Lt96DAnnA

Andrew

[wiedemab]

Damn!!! That thing looked like a caged animal trying to get out....................

Any numbers?

[bonecrrusher]

Wheres the engine being built at?

[tazzz25906112]

Ain't no finer guy than Mr Billy Howell,,,, as the saying goes "if he built that crate your in good hands".

[Bow Tie 67]

Andrew you tease

[andrewb70]

Andrew you tease

I do indeed!!! :-)

This engine is not mine. It is for a friend's project. The final numbers will be revealed after the dyno testing is done. The low boost numbers were amazing. It has a torque curve that looks as flat as a dining room table.

Andrew

[slownova]

is Brian from Omaha?

[parsonsj]

Yikes! Here's what I found inside:

43340

[andrewb70]

is Brian from Omaha?

Brian lives in Lincoln. Do you know him?

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Yikes! Here's what I found inside:

43340

Well, as can be seen from the picture that John posted, the Richmond 6 speed sustained extensive damage. I priced out the parts list that JP put together and came up with a total of over $2000 in parts to fix it. Looks like its going to be a giant paper weight.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

The spring semester has been brutal, but it will all be over in about 3 weeks. My last final is on May 5th. I am still in limbo in regards to a new transmission, but I have also been exploring some other items. I will simply post a couple of pictures and see if you eagle eye techie types can spot what I am trying to show. These are some new adjustable rear upper control arms that I will be installing to replace my current aftermarket control arms. The picture is of the same arm, just at different angles.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo142.jpg

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo143.jpg

Does anyone see what I am looking at?

Andrew

[Nessumsar]

I don't know what you're looking at, but I like your brown cieling fan....



..and the scratches. :)

[john31s]

Looking good so far, I followed you build on PY and I'm looking forward to seeing what changes you will make.

[subtlez28]

I wont guess on both forums, but I'm glad to see I wasn't the only one to notice the ceiling fan!

[Ron S]

I was given the inside scoop, it is interesting to see the difference Andrew. I never knew factory made it that way. Good talking to you. Ron

[7TSS]

Is it that the tube isn't welded on the center of rear bracket?

[andrewb70]

Is it that the tube isn't welded on the center of rear bracket?

Very good! That is correct, the bracket that slips over the rear end bushing is offset to the driver's side. Before you all demand the name of the vendor, I would like to point out that this control arm is the only one on the market that is built CORRECTLY. You see, the stock control arms are built with exactly the same offset as these control arms. Every other manufacturer, that I have seen, makes upper rear control arms so that the front and rear bushings are inline. This is INCORRECT! This also explains why the rear end in my car is offset to the passenger side by a good 1/2-3/4" as measured from the wheel to the frame. I have seen posts on various forums where people have complained about a similar problem. I also believe that this improper positioning of the rear end has been contributing the ever present vibration problem that I have been having.

I would like to thank Bret Voelkel and RideTech for making a fine product and paying attention to the little details that can have a big impact on the performance of our cars.

Andrew

[TomT]

That's an interesting tidbit Andrew. I just had to go look at my car to see if the factory controll arms were offset. It looks like G-Bodies were centered.

[andrewb70]

That's an interesting tidbit Andrew. I just had to go look at my car to see if the factory controll arms were offset. It looks like G-Bodies were centered.

Tom, I am not really sure why GM built the A-body arms the way they did. I was discussing this in detail with Ron S ($5000 mustang build) and he mentioned a few curious things. He does a lot of custom work and he has fixtures made to narrow a variety of rear ends. He was recalling a having to narrow a A-body 12 bolt rear end to be installed into a G-body. He mentioned how the position of the lower brackets on the 12 bolt were not exactly centered. I think it all has to do with having the pinion being in the proper position in the chassis and GM's desire to have equal length axles on the left and right sides. I don't know all this for a fact, it is just a theory.

In any case, the fact that my car has had a vibration since day one is very interesting. I have gone through 2 engines, 2 sets of tires, 2 different front spindles and brake packages, 2 rear ends and 3 different driveshafts. Everything seems to point to some sort of driveline misalignment issue. It is not a simple matter of pinion angles, because I have beat that issue to death. I think there is a lateral problem. The rear is offset to the side due to the control arms, that for sure. The other issue may be that my transmission output shaft and the pinion shaft may be out of parallel when viewed from the top (or bottom). This is an issue that few people think about. Once I am done with my classes I am going to install the transmission and really double check the position of everything.

Andrew

[Tony_SS]

Is it that the tube isn't welded on the center of rear bracket?

I noticed that too... but thought it was by design as I didn't think a manufacturer would mistakenly offset it like that. I'm glad a vendor out there pays attention to detail!

It's a little unsettling to think other vendors out there assume specs when it comes to these things though.

Andrew I hope that cures your problem.

[twosaturns]

interesting. lots of GM cars seem to have the rear off centered; I've seen lots of Novas that didn't drive straight down the road (my '70 was like that) and many early 2nd gen camaros are offset too (I haven't researched it deeply, but someone said this was done on purpose!). my brother's '70 camaro axle is a good 3/4" or more offset to the right IIRC.
btw, I really love this build, been following it for years.

[93Polo]

Good info on the LCAs Andrew :cheers:

Have you decided on which trans is going in yet?

[TomT]

Andrew, You're right in that it seems the discussion always centers around pinion angle rather than lateral alignment. I'm assuming that you're rear end is mounted 90 degrees to the chassis center line even if it is offset a little (otherwise it would "crab"). If I'm thinking about this right then you would want the center line of your engine/transmission to also be parrallel with the centerline of your chassis in that same plane. I expect that's a little harder to measure than pinion angle at least with the body on. I guess you could use plumb bobs on the center of the balancer and tailshaft and mark it out on the garage floor. It will be interesting to see how you solve this one.
Tom

[andrewb70]

Andrew, You're right in that it seems the discussion always centers around pinion angle rather than lateral alignment. I'm assuming that you're rear end is mounted 90 degrees to the chassis center line even if it is offset a little (otherwise it would "crab"). If I'm thinking about this right then you would want the center line of your engine/transmission to also be parrallel with the centerline of your chassis in that same plane. I expect that's a little harder to measure than pinion angle at least with the body on. I guess you could use plumb bobs on the center of the balancer and tailshaft and mark it out on the garage floor. It will be interesting to see how you solve this one.
Tom

Tom,

You are right in stating that the vast majority of pinion related questions discuss alignment as viewed from the side. The lateral alignment is rarely addressed. There are two issues when dealing with lateral alignment. One is simply the position of the pinion in relation to the transmission output shaft. The transmission output shaft and the pinion should be inline. The other aspect is parallelism. This is the same concept that is addressed by the adjustment of pinion angle from the side. The transmission output shaft and the pinion need to be parallel not only when viewed from the side, but also as viewed from the top (or bottom). The position of the engine and transmission cross member becomes critical. If the engine and trans are angled to one side that can cause the output shaft of the transmission to be out of parallel with the pinion. Also, if the rear end housing is cocked to one side, that can cause similar issues.

Ron S, please chime in. I talked to Ron and he told me how when he builds a chassis or backhalfs a car he has plumb bobs hanging everywhere. He told me how critical it is to make sure that the engine and rear end need to be plumb and square to avoid vibration problems. We drive old cars that have been through God knows what, and we often assume that frame stands, engine adapters, crossmembers, control arms, etc...locate the driveline components in their proper place. I think this is far from the case in many instances and people should pay special care to double check everything to assume a smooth running car.

Andrew

[Ron S]

That was explained very well Andrew, you should be a teacher. LOL

Andrew and I were talking on the phone about chasing driveline vibrations. I was telling him about a few cars I backhalved through the years. I am a bit anal about things being level and square, so I use plumb bobs hanging off the pinch welds, then run two strings along the length of the car,and two 90 degrees to them.I use all that to reference axle, and driveline center lines. I remember one car that the rear was 4" offset in the car. I was putting rear rails in it, and to square the rails and rear in the car, the tires were flush with the quarter panel on one side, and 4" in on the other. The car looked normal, but the body was so out of square,the driveline couldn't help but vibrate. The owner of the car was clueless of the problem, the correction was expensive.

I only mentioned this to emphasize that we really don't know where these cars have been, and the life they have lived. Andrews car is a little different, because the car must be squared off the chassis instead of the body like you would do on a unibody car. If the chassis has easy places to measure off of, the plumb bobs aren't always required. Unfortunatly this really is the only way you can be sure that the axle is straight in the car, and the engine and trans are 90 degrees to it.

[andrewb70]

Last Thursday I finished my last final, so I am officially done with the spring semester. I am ready to relax and get back to my GTO. It's hard to imagine, but it was three years ago that I completed the L92 engine swap. My, how time flies. In the summer of 2008 I put about 6,000 miles on the car. The plans for this summer are more modest, but I would like to attend a couple of events and maybe visit some friends out west. After much deliberation and for a lack of simple options, I have decided to get the Richmond 6 speed rebuilt. Richmond Gear has been working with me and we came to an agreement. They are currently in possession of my transmission and will give it a thorough inspection. All the gears will be magnufluxed and all parts that are damaged will be replaced. I never had any fundamental objections to the Richmond. I always felt that it shifted fine and offered an awesome, close-ratio gear spread for gears 1-5 and a comfortable .62 overdrive. Keeping the same transmissions will also allow me to keep my current crossmember and not worry about an alternate shifter location.

With road trips planned for the summer, I once again turned to a problem that has plagued my car since day one. Despite numerous efforts I have been unable to completely eliminate the high speed vibration that my car exhibits at speeds about 75 mph. It's really frustrating on long highway trips, because the car feels amazing cruising at speeds between 75 and 80 mph.

I have already posted what my thoughts are regarding the rear end position. I will be swapping out the current rear upper control arms for ones made by RideTech. I firmly believe that while the rear end position may not be entirely responsible for my vibration, it is certainly a factor. I will also be doing other driveline upgrades at the same time. What I have planned may be a little overboard, but I believe that it will completely eliminate any driveline alignment and vibration issues in the future. Here is the plan....

The first step is to get a rear pinion yoke that is machined with the kind of tolerances that are required to achieve smooth operation at sustained high speeds. I chose a 1350 billet yoke from Mark Williams:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

With the rear taken care of, the next item to tackle is the driveshaft. There are many fine companies that make driveshafts, but given my alignment issues, I wanted to pick a vendor that was able to offer something unique. I have worked with Frank at The DriveShaft Shop (http://www.driveshaftshop.com/)(DSS) in the past when I needed custom axles for my RX7. Frank has always been attentive to my needs and has provided a quality product that has met and exceeded my expectations. The DSS is widely known in the sport compact world for making bullet proof CV axles, and recently they have also been doing some innovative work on the many modern muscle cars that use independent rear suspensions. Cars like the new Camaro, Dodge Charger, GTOs, and Cadillac CTS-V are rear drive, high HP, and heavy. That combination is the perfect storm for breaking driveline components, and DSS has stepped up to the plate with upgraded CV shafts, driveshafts, and complete 9" IRS swap packages.

After deliberating with Frank about my GTO and the issues that I am having we came up with a very elegant solution. Frank will make me a custom driveshaft with a CV joint in the front. People in the 4x4 world have used double cardon CV joint driveshafts for a long time to deal with extreme driveline angles. But double cardon joints are bulky and heavy, and just didn't seem appropriate for a car. What will be used in the front is a 6 ball, Porsche 930 style CV. Like this:


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/05/3108mmcvfinned-1.jpg

CV joints are designed to operate at high speeds and at extreme operating angles. Furthermore, there is no need to match the front and rear angles, as you need with a shaft that uses u-joints on both ends. With the CV joint in the front I will adjust my pinion angle so that the pinion and the driveshaft have almost a zero working angle. A slight angle is required only to make sure that the needles in the u-joint caps get lubricated. The rear working angle will be less than .5 degrees.

Since a new shaft will need to be fabricated, I have also decided to go a little overboard and opt for a carbon fiber tube. This may be a little over kill, but I am not taking any chances. In fact, Frank felt that my problems can be solved by using a driveshaft made from aluminum. However, a CF driveshaft is lighter than aluminum and offers plenty of torque capacity. Using a carbon fiber driveshaft also tends to significantly lessen the noise generated by the driveline. In some ways its like Dynomat for the driveline. I had the opportunity to drive a friends RX7 with a carbon driveshaft and it felt amazing. When cycling the driveline from load to coast the sensation was like there was a piece of plastic between the rear and and the transmission. It was a firm feeling, yet it lacked the sharpness that is felt with metal components. It was quite amazing.

With my current combination of gears and tire size the driveshaft will be spinning 3675 RPM at 80mph. While this doesn't seem like a lot, when you consider that my old driveshaft was made from mild steel and was 3.5" in diameter, the forces that were generated by such a heavy shaft were significant, even with a properly balanced driveshaft. The DSS has recently installed a new balancing machine that has the ability to spin a shaft to 9500RPM. They have been working with some NASCAR teams to solve some of the driveline issues that they face. Keep in mind that NASCAR race cars operate with the driveline spinning anywhere from 7500-9600RPM. Balancing driveshafts at that speed is a whole different ballgame than your typical 1000 RPM balance job at your local driveline shop.

The resulting driveshaft will be very similar to the shaft that they sell for 2010+ Camaros.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/05/carbonCVshaftclean1-1.jpg

Instead of the billet adapters that are seen in the picture, my shaft will be connected to a modified slip yoke. The rest should be very similar. The finished shaft should be about 17 pounds with the slip yoke. Here are pictures of the components that are used in making the driveshaft. The parts on the left are used for carbon shafts, and the parts on the right are for aluminum shafts:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/05/carbonends8inch1-1.jpg

The bars that mate with the CV are 30 spline and are made out of a high tech 4130 alloy. The dimensions are similar to a Viper T56 output shaft. DSS has gone to great lengths to validate all the components that are used in making the CF driveshafts. This includes destructive testing, which few manufacturers ever do:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/05/carbonsmall1-1.jpg

As you can see, the 1350 u-joint failed before the tube or the aluminum yoke. I feel very confident that this shaft will outlast every other component in my driveline. I can't wait....

Andrew

[andrewb70]

The first part of the driveline project arrived yesterday. The Mark Williams billet pinion yoke is a work of art. There are numerous machined surfaces taht can be used to measure runout.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo145.jpg

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo146.jpg

Andrew

[TomT]

It will be very interesting to see how this all works out. It sounds like DSS could help me when I get ready to put the Ecotec and 5MT into the Vega (that trans doesn't have a slip yoke).

[andrewb70]

Tom, I am quite sure that Frank will be able to do whatever it is you need done.

I am once again impressed by Frank at The Driveshaft Shop. He had the yoke done by last Friday and today he was able to have it black oxide coating applied to it and have pictures taken.

Here is the modified Spicer yoke:

https://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo147.jpg

https://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo148.jpg

https://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo149.jpg


The gold colored part is a cap that keeps the grease from leaking out the back of the CV:


https://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/photo150.jpg

This is a detailed shot of the modified yoke with the CV and front of the driveshaft:

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo151.jpg

Finally, a shot of the complete assembly. Interestingly, Frank was building a shaft just like mine for another project that had similar driveline alignment issues. It's a custom 1961 Corvette that will get a monster twin turbo engine.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo152.jpg

Frank will send me the slip yoke so that I can give him the final measurement for the driveshaft.

Andrew

[gearbanger]

Man, that is some exotic lookin sheeet!!!!!

[parsonsj]

Andrew, I'm digging this technology! U-joints are (and always have been) a poor method of allowing misalignment between drivetrain components. CV joints are way better, and the carbon driveshaft will put the critical speed of the driveshaft well over any top speeds you'll be running. Very nice.

I'll be calling to get some contact information for Frank. That shaft seems like the best solution for 200 mph. Any chance this stuff can hang on to 1300 hp? :)

[andrewb70]

I just got word from Richmond Gear and they said that with some luck my transmission might be ready to ship by the end of the week. Looks like things are coming together and I might be able to get the car ready to attend the MotorState event in June.

Andrew

[David Sloan]

Very nice Andrew
hope we can hang out at some of the events this year.
Any idea as to a price range for a shaft like that? maybe some contact info for DSS
Thanks for sharing!!

[andrewb70]

Very nice Andrew
hope we can hang out at some of the events this year.
Any idea as to a price range for a shaft like that? maybe some contact info for DSS
Thanks for sharing!!

Hello David! I really hope that I can make a few events this year. I need a little fun time. My current plan is to attend Holley LS Fest and RTTH. Hope to see you at RTTH at the very least.

The modified slip yoke and CV in the front will add about $450 to any driveshaft that the DSS builds. You can see the various options on their website:

http://www.driveshaftshop.com/

They really do specialize in custom work, such as this, so its best to give them a call to get an accurate quote.

800-564-2244

Andrew

[Scott LaPointe]

I just spent quite a bit of time catching up on this build. Some nice ideas here. When you set your weights did you check the frame heights to see if they are parallel side to side? (Same height difference front to rear on both sides) And, if you know, how much lower is the left side than the right with a driver in the car?

[andrewb70]

I just spent quite a bit of time catching up on this build. Some nice ideas here. When you set your weights did you check the frame heights to see if they are parallel side to side? (Same height difference front to rear on both sides) And, if you know, how much lower is the left side than the right with a driver in the car?

Thanks for the compliments. The corner weights were set with the car sitting on a 1" steel plate that had been leveled, with me in the car. We never took any measurements from the plate to the frame, because those measurements are irrelevant as far as the corner weights are concerned.

Andrew

[Motown 454]

Thats a slick set up. They do some nice work.

[Scott LaPointe]

You're right, the heights don't affect the weights, but keeping the frame level keeps the suspension geometry the same side to side. Chances are you are still pretty close because you don't have adjusters on the front. Getting the cross weight back to 50% is probably the bigger deal.

[gearbanger]

I ran into this on my car too. This is not real technicle, but in trying to level my car, It took about 1.5" of shims to raise the drivers side rear of my GTO .5" I was really scratching my head on that one. But once I thought it through, I assumed it was because the paasenger side front spring was a little longer than the driver side was, and what I was doing was trying to fight the front spring with the much weaker back spring so it took alot more shim. That is where coil overs would definitely be nice.

Andrew, do you have any updates?

[andrewb70]

My transmission was rebuilt and sent back to me on Friday. I'm hoping to receive it this week and get it installed over the weekend. Once it's installed I can measure for the driveshaft. I'm really hoping to get it back on the road in time for the Motor State Challenge. I took my son last year and he had a blast. This year I promised him that I'd do all I could to attend with my GTO. Fingers crossed.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

The freight company just showed up with my Richmond 6 speed. I will be heading out to Pigeon Forge tomorrow morning to get it installed and measure for the driveshaft. So far so good.

During my internet search for information about driveline vibrations I came across this very informative document published by Spicer. It is full of important information about driveline alignment, etc...

Spicer Tech Paper (https://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/J3311-1-HVTSS.pdf)

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Bill Howell and I installed the transmission last night without too much fanfare. I also measured for the driveshaft, which came out to be 55 3/4" from the face of the yoke where the CV mounts to the center of the u-joint on the pinion yoke. Speaking of pinion yokes, after much deliberation I decided that it would be wise to reset the preload on the pinion bearings. This is something that I am not comfortable tackling myself, but one of Bill's friends will handle the task. He has set-up several rear ends for Bill and knowing how hard Bill beats on his cars, I am sure he will do a fine job.

Today I am tackling some minor tasks. I need to pick up a new crush sleeve and pinion seal, an 0-ring for the back-up sensor, and ship the slip yoke back to the DSS so the new driveshaft can be balanced as an assembly.

Andrew

[gearbanger]

Hey man, I'll be in Pigeon Forge in the morning! Ther is a Pontiac car Show at the Music Road Hotel right behind the Ruby Tuesday. You should come by and/or I would love to come out to Bills and meet you guys and check out your car and all of Bill's stash!

I don;t mean to invite myself but I don't get a chance to meet to many pro touring guys hanging out in the Pontiac crowds.

[andrewb70]

Here are a few of pictures of the transmission and how the new slip yoke sits in the tunnel. You can see in the pictures where my old, 1350 yoke used to make contact with the body. Since the front driveline angle is of no concern, I can safely lower the back of the transmission slightly and get enough clearance for the CV joint.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo153.jpg

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo154.jpg

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo155.jpg

Andrew

[Scott LaPointe]

[QUOTE=gearbanger;804500]I ran into this on my car too. This is not real technicle, but in trying to level my car, It took about 1.5" of shims to raise the drivers side rear of my GTO .5" I was really scratching my head on that one. But once I thought it through, I assumed it was because the paasenger side front spring was a little longer than the driver side was, and what I was doing was trying to fight the front spring with the much weaker back spring so it took alot more shim. That is where coil overs would definitely be nice.

Alex, You are correct on why you needed 1.5" of shim to correct .5" of height. Did you just level the car without checking cross weight? If so you probably have a car that will turn left better than right. It's trickier to balance cross weight with keeping ride height correct. I am used to doing it with height adjusters on all four corners. I'm not sure it's possible to do both with just adjusting spring height in the rear.

[DRJDVM's '69]

I'd be interested in the price of that thing too...

So the CV adds about $450.....so how much for the whole set up?

You can PM me if you dont want to post it

[andrewb70]

I'd be interested in the price of that thing too...

So the CV adds about $450.....so how much for the whole set up?

You can PM me if you dont want to post it

I don't mind posting. My complete shaft will run about $1450. That includes the modified Spicer yoke, and the CF tube. The CF tube adds substantially to the cost of the shaft. The tube alone runs almost $11 per INCH! An aluminum version would be less and coupled with the CV will provide the same benefits as the CF shaft.

Andrew

[TomT]

The freight company just showed up with my Richmond 6 speed. I will be heading out to Pigeon Forge tomorrow morning to get it installed and measure for the driveshaft. So far so good.

During my internet search for information about driveline vibrations I came across this very informative document published by Spicer. It is full of important information about driveline alignment, etc...

Spicer Tech Paper (https://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/J3311-1-HVTSS.pdf)

Andrew

Hey Andrew, the Spicer Tech Paper is great - thanks for posting it!

[andrewb70]

So far, everything is going according to schedule. Since I was replacing the pinion yoke, I chose to have the pinion bearing pre-load reset. That procedure went smoothly, so the rear end is all set.

The DSS made my driveshaft last week and it is on its way to me. The shipping weight on the driveshaft is 25 pounds with the packaging. I suspect the finished weight of the driveshaft is right around 20 pounds with the slip yoke. I would guess that is easily 15 pounds less than my previous driveshaft. While weight saving was a not a primary concern, it is certainly a nice side benefit. The lighter weight will also be gentler on all the bearings in the transmission and rear end. With some luck I should be taking a test drive on Monday evening. Wish me luck!

Andrew

[Motown 454]

Good Luck with the first ride. I'll be watching for your post on how it went. Sweet Ride.

[andrewb70]

The driveshaft arrived this evening and I got right on installing it.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo156.jpg

It looks amazing. I will take more pictures tomorrow with a better camera.

Once the shaft was bolted up, I measured my driveline angles. Since the front u-joint has been replaced with a CV joint, the front working angle is now irrelevant. The rear angle needs to be as low as possible without being zero. I adjusted my rear control arms so the rear working angle is .5 degrees with the pinion slightly down. This way, under power the pinion will want to climb and the angle should get less or increase slightly in the other direction.

Test drive tomorrow.

Andrew

[Ron S]

Very cool stuff Andrew, I'm still amazed how far the automotive aftermarket has come, carbon fiber CV drive shaft, how exotic is that. Have you driven it yet? Vibration free?

[gearbanger]

When are you going to drive it?! I can't wait to hear what the deal is!

[Tony_SS]

This one is a cliffhanger!!!

[gearbanger]

drum roll!

[Roadbuster]

Once the shaft was bolted up, I measured my driveline angles. Since the front u-joint has been replaced with a CV joint, the front working angle is now irrelevant. The rear angle needs to be as low as possible without being zero. I adjusted my rear control arms so the rear working angle is .5 degrees with the pinion slightly down. This way, under power the pinion will want to climb and the angle should get less or increase slightly in the other direction.

Test drive tomorrow.

Andrew

Great information here! Good luck with the test drive and enjoy the ear to ear grin!

[andrewb70]

Hello Everyone...

I have to apologize for the less than timely update to this thread. It has been a very busy week and a crazy few days. As promised here are a few more pictures of the CV driveshaft from the DSS.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo158.jpg

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo157.jpg

On Wednesday I headed out from Pigeon Forge to Bowling Green, KY. It was the most pleasant drive I have ever done in my GTO. The vibration that I was experiencing before is now completely gone. The car was smooth as glass at all reasonable highway speeds. I ran it up to about 90 and there were no noticeable driveline vibrations that I could detect.

From BG, KY I headed to Chicago to pick up my son. On Friday morning we headed out to the Lane Automotive Motor State Challenge. My goal for attending the event was to enjoy some time with my son and reconnect with some car friends. However, I couldn't resist taking my car on the Gingerman race track. I also figured that some track time will really test my newly rebuilt transmission and the new driveshaft. Gingerman has two long straights where the car can be easily taken up to over 120 mph.

On Saturday we headed to the track, passed tech, and were ready to go. I ran three sessions with my son riding shotgun and managed to get into the to 16 in the Pro-Touring class which consisted of any vehicle older than 30 years. My best time was 1:55.xx At high speeds the driveline was super smooth and the car performed very well. No drama, no puking fluids, 200 degree water temp.

I will post more later...

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Hello Everyone,

I thought I would give everyone an update as to what I have been up to for the last week. As I posted earlier, I spent Father's Day weekend with my son at the Motor State Challenge. We had a great time and the car performed very well.

On Monday (6-20-11), I picked up my daughter and we headed west. Our mission was to spend some quality time together and visit some of my friends. It also gave us an opportunity to see some of the most breathtaking scenery in the world. Monday evening we arrived safely in Lincoln, NE where we spent the night at my friend Brian's house. Brian is a great guy and he is actually the person that did the body work and paint on my car.

Tuesday (6-21-11) morning we continued our journey west and made our first scenic stop. Well, perhaps the word "scenic" is not entirely accurate to describe Buford, WY, but the town is certainly unique. Buford, Wyoming is the highest town on I-80 between San Francisco and New York City. It also has the distinction of being the smallest town in the US, with a population of 1. Word has it that it used to be a population of 2, but the father of the man that lives in town passed away.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo159a.jpg

From Buford, WY we traveled a little further west and reached our final destination, Laramie, Wyoming, where my good friend Rory lives. I've known Rory since high school and he is a dear friend and a fellow car and motorcycle enthusiast. Rory's current car is a very neat 1966 Corvair Corsa. The Corsa has a turbo charged engine that makes 180HP. It's a very clean, low mileage (25K miles) car that was repainted (by Brian) and has been slightly lowered. Very cool car! (fukk Ralph Nader. These cars are super cool.)

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo159b.jpg

On Wednesday (6-22-11), my daughter and I made our first trip over the Rocky Mountains. We headed west and reached the town of Centennial, WY. While Centennial is 100 times the size of Buford, it is still no more than a clearing in the road and the last stop before heading over Snowy Range.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo160.jpg

On our way up over Snowy Range we had a chance to make some stops at various scenic outlooks. The Rockies have received an exceptionally high snowfall this year and there is still much snow on the ground at higher elevations. In fact, Rory told me that as recently as two weeks before our visit, Snowy Range got over 6 inches of fresh snowfall.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo161.jpg

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo162.jpg

As we climbed higher in elevation, the snow pack got higher and more dense. We eventually made it over Snowy Range pass and had lunch in Saratoga, WY. The North Platte river runs through Saratoga, and it was very high and moving very fast. Quite an amazing sight to see.

On Thursday (6-23-11) Rory took the day off and we headed to Estes Park, Colorado. Rory and I graduated from Park High School in Estes Park and he many of his close family reside there. Estes Park is a little tourist town with a population of about 5,000 in the winter and 50,000 in the summer. Many people have summer homes there, and millions of people pass through every summer on their way to Rocky Mountain National Park. We headed up Trail Ridge Road which connects Estes Park with Grand Lake. About a third of the way up we stopped at an outlook point to take some pictures. The scenery is simply breathtaking.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo163.jpg

Don't try this with your carbureted muscle car kids! This picture was taken at an altitude of about 9,000 feet. Modern day fuel with ethanol is prone to vapor lock in low pressure fuel systems. I doubt that my car would have made it up that high if it had a carburetor. My wideband O2 sensor showed a constant 14.0-14.9 AFR the whole way up.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo164.jpg

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo166.jpg

My daughter and Rory were having a good time, goofing off. I think the thin air was getting to them....LOL

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo165.jpg

The drive over Trail Ridge road is even higher than Snowy Range. Trail Ridge road is the highest continuous road in the USA, reaching a peak of over 12,000 feet! The snow pack on the way up was even higher than Snowy Range.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo167.jpg

Passing just over the peak and heading down the western slope there is a little store that sells all sorts of souvenirs and trinkets.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo168.jpg

We headed down the western slope of the Rockies and reached the town of Grand Lake, CO. From there we headed to Walden, CO and eventually towards the road to Saratoga, WY. We crossed back over Snowy Range and ended up in Centennial, WY where I took the following picture.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo169.jpg

Before heading back (6-24-11) to Lincoln, NE, I snapped the following picture. It shows all the bugs we killed on the day before.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo170.jpg

We spent the night at Brian's house again and headed back to Chicago, IL on Saturday (2-25-11). While visiting Estes Park, Rory's father suggested that we make a stop at the Strategic Air and Space Museum, which is located between Lincoln and Omaha, NE. I am so glad we went. I always loved airplanes and actually wanted to be a pilot when I was younger. We pulled up and were greeted to the sight of several Air Force rockets.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo171.jpg

Once we stepped inside the front doors, this is what greeted us at the door!

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo172.jpg

It was simply amazing to see the SR-71 Blackbird in person. It's hard to imagine that this plane could fly from New York to London in 1 hour and 55 minutes. In fact, the true top speed is still classified!

The museum is full of really neat planes, helicopters, and space craft. I am sure that many of you eagle eyed people will spot numerous important aircraft in this picture:

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo173.jpg

Overall this was an amazing trip. The opportunity to drive my favorite car and share quality time with my daughter was simply amazing. She will be 11 in October and was a trooper in the car. I plan on doing similar road trips in the summer with my kids for as long as they will hang out with me. :)

My speedometer and consequently my odometer were not working for this trip, but using Google maps I was able to get a rough estimate of the total distance that I traveled. Here is a break down of the mileage. Keep in mind that this doesn't include minor trips here and there and the racing miles around Gingerman Raceway.

Wednesday 6-15-2011
Pigeon Forge, TN to Bowling Green, KY – 244

Thursday 6-16-2011
Bowling Green, KY to Geneva, IL – 439

Friday 6-17-2011
Geneva, IL to Watervliet, MI – 141
Cruise -- 50

Saturday 6-18-2011
Gingerman Raceway 15 racing laps = 30 racing miles

Sunday 6-19-2011
Watervliet, MI to Geneva, IL – 141

Monday 6-20-2011
Geneva, IL to Lincoln, NE – 486

Tuesday 6-21-2011
Lincoln, NE to Laramie, WY – 490

Wednesday 6-22-2011
Laramie, WY to Saratoga, WY – 79
Saratoga, WY to Laramie, WY - 79

Thursday 6-23-11
Laramie, WY to Estes Park, CO – 106
Estes Park, CO to Grand Lake, Co – 47
Grand Lake, CO to Walden, CO – 71
Walden, CO to Riverside, WY – 49
Riverside, WY to Centennial, WY – 50
Centennial, WY to Laramie, WY – 30
Total – 353 miles

Friday 6-24-2011
Laramie, WY to Lincoln, NE – 490

Saturday 6-25-2011
Lincoln, NE to Geneva, IL – 486

Sunday 6-26-2011
Geneva, IL to Pigeon Forge, TN – 601

Grand Total = 4,379

At the end of my road trip I traveled nearly 4,400 miles in my GTO. The car ran beautifully and without any high speed vibrations. Both Nebraska and Wyoming have 75 mph speed limits on the highways, which means going 85 mph is not a huge deal. The GTO does 85 mph at about 2,400 RPM and is smooth as silk. I want to thank the following people and companies for making this trip possible:

Bill Howell - Without your generous help and hospitality, this trip would not be remotely possible.

Rory and Brian - You are my dear friends and I appreciate everything you two have done for me over the years.

The Driveshaft Shop - Without Frank's innovation and attention to detail, my car would still be shaking itself apart at speeds over 75 mph.

Global West - Their various suspension components have taken a licking and kept on ticking.

ATS - Their spindles are amazing and allow me to use the very effective, OEM quality C6 Z06 brakes on the front.

GM - The LSx engine family is amazing and makes road trips like this possible. Without the modern engine and EFI my car would never have traveled over the high altitudes or gotten more than 20 MPG on the trip.

Mike Norris - Mike's tuning smoothed out a few rough spots in my tune and made the journey trouble free.

Detroit Speed and Engineering - The Midwest is plagued by severe summer storms. DSE's modern windshield wiper system kept my windshield clean and allowed me to navigate safely through the inclement weather.

In the end, I want everyone to take trips in their favorite cars. We spend years and thousands of dollars building our dream cars, and unfortunately many end up sitting pretty in the garage without having a chance to do what they were built to do: DRIVE!!!

Andrew

[Motown 454]

Andrew Nice write up I enjoyed it very much. It was like your own, lone power tour. Glad to hear the car ran well and you enjoyed the ride. Your kids must have been thrilled. I would love to see the SR71 in person. Its my favorite plane. Thanks for posting.

[Ron.in.SoCal]

Great post Andrew! So glad the car ran flawlessly. A couple more tracks and you could've put a One Lap wrap on your car...:lol:

[compos mentis]

Great memories for you and your kids. :twothumbs

Enjoyed the tech and pics as well.

[Ron S]

Dude!!! you da man. You were racing that thing in Michigan what 10 days ago. Very cool, Ron

[Jon69RagTop]

What a great story, very cool to take a classic car with modern innovations on a solo trip. The bonus was doing this with your kids, memories for a life time. Congratulations Andrew, well done.

[analyte]

Awesome trip and experiences!! Thanks for sharing!!

[bonecrrusher]

Cool trip & pics!

[Ripped]

Very cool trip. I'd love to do something like that! Great pics too. Extremely jeaolous ;)

[andrewb70]

Thanks for the kind words guys. It was really an amazing trip.

Ron,
You are correct. I raced the car at Gingerman on that Saturday and on Monday my daughter and I hit the road for Wyoming. I didn't do half bad at Gingerman either. :)

Andrew

[Nessumsar]

Thanks for the kind words guys. It was really an amazing trip.

Ron,
You are correct. I raced the car at Gingerman on that Saturday and on Monday my daughter and I hit the road for Wyoming. I didn't do half bad at Gingerman either. :)

Andrew

And there you have it folks, the epitome of "Pro Touring". Had a great time reading the story Andrew.

[Ron.in.SoCal]

And there you have it folks, the epitome of "Pro Touring". Had a great time reading the story Andrew.

Yep! Next time someone posts a 'define Pro-Touring' thread, just link this one...

[Tony_SS]

I was getting light headed just reading about it! Thanks for the pics and writeup Andrew.

[Scott LaPointe]

It's great to see a car that can perform on the track and function flawlessly on a long road trip. I think you have captured the true meaning of Pro-touring.

[David Sloan]

Man it just dont get any better than that!!

Thanks for sharing that with us!

PS It was good to hang out with you at RTMC!

[Young Gun]

I haven't been on pt in a longgggg time but it's good to see this project is still improving, an most importantly, it's being driven! Looks awesome!

[blakgoat]

Andrew I am Jealous, for you to go on a cool trip like that.
it was cool hanging out with you,
cheers Imran

[JEFFTATE]

The freight company just showed up with my Richmond 6 speed. I will be heading out to Pigeon Forge tomorrow morning to get it installed and measure for the driveshaft. So far so good.

During my internet search for information about driveline vibrations I came across this very informative document published by Spicer. It is full of important information about driveline alignment, etc...

Spicer Tech Paper (https://www.pro-touring.com/%7Eandrewb/gtov2/J3311-1-HVTSS.pdf)

Andrew

Andrew , thanks for posting this article.
It is chocked full of relevant information.

[andrewb70]

Andrew I am Jealous, for you to go on a cool trip like that.
it was cool hanging out with you,
cheers Imran

Imran,

It was a pleasure to meet you. I hope that our paths cross again very soon.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

....

PS It was good to hang out with you at RTMC!

Likewise David. I hope to see you at RTTH in September.

Andrew

[wmhjr]

Great writeup!

[andrewb70]

The good folks at Lane Automotive had a photographer during the entire event and I want to thank him for taking these pictures at Gingerman.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo177.jpg

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo178.jpg

I really love going on a road course and not just an autocross. Autocrosses are OK, but nothing compares to being on a technical road course, like Gingerman, and learning the proper line around every corner. I wish that I would have taken an experienced driver along on one of my sessions. I have no doubt that my time would have improved by seconds. In fact, I was given a quick tip on how to successfully navigate one of the corners and that tip alone was worth 2 seconds on my subsequent session.

Good times...

Andrew

[dusterbd13]

i owould strongly reccomend signing up for an HPDE or two. usually the ones run by the porsche or bmw clubs are the best, at least in my area. you get one on one in car instruction, classroom, and enough sessions to flat wear you out. at CMP (one of my local tracks) weekends are only 300 or so, and usually you get 5 40 minutye sessions a day for two days.
it teaches you sooooooooo much about your car and your driving. worth every penny. ive tracked my old s10, my old mazdaspeed, and had my dakota out for a few sessions. have yet to get out with my duster.
my dad is actually an instructor for hpde's and the street survival course with nasa and a bunch of other clubs


id make sure that whoever you go with (club wise) runs a good event. usually the corvette forum guys are all over the hpde stuff, and can steer you in the right direction local to you.

and if you can, run VIR with tarheel sports car club. hands down the best event and group of guys ive ever run with.

michael

[andrewb70]

Just saw the latest issue of PHR magazine and on the last page I got a little ink from the coverage of the Motor State Challenge.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo179.jpg

A big thanks to Robert McGaffin for covering the event and to Johnny Hunkins for including a picture of my car in the coverage.

With some luck I will be at LS Fest next weekend!

Andrew

[andrewb70]

This past weekend I drove to Bowling Green, KY to attend the Holley LS Fest. Everyone from Holley and FM3 did an amazing job with the event. It was great to see so many old friends and meet some new people. My main goal for the event was to have a good time. The LS Fest offers something for everyone: drag racing, auto cross, speed stop challenge, drift exhibition, country cruise, and show and shine.

On Saturday morning I did a session of autocrossing and it was a good reminder how much I dislike the experience. My car is really not set-up for it and it wallowed around the course like a pregnant yak. Give me a high speed road course and I'll be a smiling fool...

I also participated in the True Street class of the drag racing competition. True street is a good time because it starts with a 30 mile cruise followed by 3 rounds of drag racing. The drive really does a nice job of separating real street cars from race cars. Lingenfelter Performance was the lead sponsor and drove their LS9 powered 5th Gen Camaro, which completed the drive without any problems. Once we were back at the track everyone drove directly to the staging lanes where adjustments to the car were no longer permitted. Everyone runs on an index, meaning the goal is to get as close to a whole number time as possible without going over, over a three run average. So technically there is an unlimited number of classes, but realistically it broke down into 13 second, 12 sec, 11, 10, 9, and overall winner.

Earlier in the day, during practice sessions I ran a best of 12.65@111mph, but my very first practice pass was a 13.038, so the natural place for me to compete was in the 13 second index. On the first round pass I ran a 13.002. Second round was a 12.998. That put me at a perfect 13.000, but I had to race one more round. If I went under 13 seconds that would have been over for me, so the goal was to run as close to 13 seconds as possible without going over. On my last pass I ran a 13.038, which put me at 13.012 for a three run average. That was good enough for the win and a $100 bucks in my pocket. Good times...

I want to thank my good friend Bill Howell for bringing my car. If it wasn't for his kindness I would never be able to do this event.

[dropit69]

Awesome Andrew Congrats on the Win..always loved that GTO !!!!!!

[irregal83]

Amazing story, pictures and car. thanks andrew!

[Jims78elky]

Way to go Andrew, your GTO build has always been a inspiration,it just keeps getting better. Congrats on the win, it shows that well planning and hard work pays off!

[gearbanger]

Dude, that is a pretty awesome day. It is always nice to pick up a little cash while having fun! Kind of like going to the casino and walking out with the same amount of money you went in with.

I am glad to see you having fun with the car. Time to increase your ratio of time enjoying/time spent working on!

[Tony_SS]

Sounds like too much fun... this is inspiring me to finish mine up for my 200 mile trip in 2 1/2 weeks...

[ponchopwr70]

12.65 at 111 is pretty good! Love the car but i'm a little bias. I agree with you on the autocross thing, although I do ok I'm dieing to go to limerock. So hows that driveshaft holding up? How many rpms where you leaving the line at? Were you on street tires? I have a whole list for the winter of upgrades. My driveline angles are really pissing me off, even when I go with a 9" (pinion is .75 lower) I'm still goin to have problems so a cv shaft is most likely in the works. Hows that richmond shifting? I'm sending mine back something is not right spent about $100 in fluids with zero change in the shifting grind!

[csouth]

The benefits of being a bachelor and living alone include being able to have a bunch of car parts in the living room and not hearing "THE DISPOSAL IS CLOGGED!!!" LOL

Besides the engine swap I am doing some suspension mods. I already have some coilovers in the front. The springs in the front are 550 lb/inch. They were marginal with the big block. I think they will work very well with the L92, so for now I am not messing with them. In the rear I currently have some springs that I got way back in the day, from HO Racing.

Who remembers them? If you do, your old!!!

I wanted the ability to adjust the ride height in the rear and more importantly have the ability to properly set the corner weights once the car is done. There are all kinds of solutions to accomplish this, I chose a very nice product from Budzter:

https://www.budzter.com/index.html

Not cheap, but the quality is outstanding and it is a true bolt on. No hacking of the rear is required and its fully reversible. I like that. The spring is 9.5" tall, 175 lb/inch from the Coleman Racing catalog.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo27.jpg

Andrew

Love reading your thread. I wanted to use these on my Cutlass, but seems he's not making any sets right now because of coating issues. :banghead:

[andrewb70]

Love reading your thread. I wanted to use these on my Cutlass, but seems he's not making any sets right now because of coating issues. :banghead:

Thanks for the compliment Chris. If you do get the spring adjusters, I suggest using some thrust bearings between the springs and the adjusters.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HAL-7888-109/

They will make adjustments a lot easier. I wish I had done this when I installed them...

Andrew

[csouth]

Thanks for the compliment Chris. If you do get the spring adjusters, I suggest using some thrust bearings between the springs and the adjusters.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HAL-7888-109/

They will make adjustments a lot easier. I wish I had done this when I installed them...

Andrew

I just pulled the trigger on some SPC springs from Marc at SC&C. I called Budzter and the gentlemen said he stopped making the adjusters because he can't get them coated anymore :crying:. He was willing to sell me them uncoated, but he didn't recommend that being I'm in Michigan....I'm still saving the link for future reference.

[andrewb70]

I just pulled the trigger on some SPC springs from Marc at SC&C. I called Budzter and the gentlemen said he stopped making the adjusters because he can't get them coated anymore :crying:. He was willing to sell me them uncoated, but he didn't recommend that being I'm in Michigan....I'm still saving the link for future reference.

I don't recall them having any sort of exotic coating. It looked like black oxide to me, which isn't very resistant to corrosion anyway. I would just rattle can them. Seriously...

Andrew

[SShep71]

Im going through this with the SPC upper A arms. Cross shaft is black oxide and 2 weeks outside covered with no rain and they are completely rusted.

[andrewb70]

Im going through this with the SPC upper A arms. Cross shaft is black oxide and 2 weeks outside covered with no rain and they are completely rusted.

I am not surprised at all. Black oxide was never intended to be a rust proof coating. You can take the crossshafts off and either paint or powdercoat them. I am sure that the rust is not deep and will easily come off with some sanding or sand blasting.

Andrew

[93Polo]

Thanks for the compliment Chris. If you do get the spring adjusters, I suggest using some thrust bearings between the springs and the adjusters.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/HAL-7888-109/

They will make adjustments a lot easier. I wish I had done this when I installed them...

Andrew

I was just reading about these did you go with the setup that has shims or without?

[andrewb70]

I was just reading about these did you go with the setup that has shims or without?

I used the thrust bearings on the front coilover kit, not on the rear. I definitely should have used them on the rear as well. Luckily when I had the car corner scaled the rear's did not need a lot of adjustment as it would have been very hard to do without the thrust bearings.

Andrew

[mikes2nd]

One quick question.

I think I am going with the Holley oil pan.

Did you check around with your oil pan? The oil pans for the ls3 are "structural" so I am leery going with the stamped pans...

I think that stamped pan has a little better baffling though...

http://holley.com/302-1.asp

[andrewb70]

One quick question.

I think I am going with the Holley oil pan.

Did you check around with your oil pan? The oil pans for the ls3 are "structural" so I am leery going with the stamped pans...

I think that stamped pan has a little better baffling though...

http://holley.com/302-1.asp

I started this swap in 2008 and at the time there were few options. The Holley pan is great and has good baffling.

Andrew

[Later-A-body]

You can also look into running the MAST oil pan. It is cast aluminum like the factory pans, not stamped. More rigid. I am using that pan on my build.

[dontlifttoshift]

Just and FYI, unless they changed it the holley pan has no baffling. https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?79109-another-ls-pan-question&highlight=mast+oil+pan+holley

[andrewb70]

Just and FYI, unless they changed it the holley pan has no baffling. https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?79109-another-ls-pan-question&highlight=mast+oil+pan+holley

I guess it's all how you define "baffling." The Holley pan has the plate at the top of the oil level that will keep oil from sloshing around. It looks like the Mast pan has some vertical ribs that might control the oil movement a little better. My AutoKraft pan has a box around the pickup with trap doors that control oil movement. No baffling to me means just an open pan.

Andrew

[mikes2nd]

The holley pan has baffling and nothing stopping you from adding more baffling. The mast pan just has two other ridges in the bottom. But the price is a little higher... I think the holley pan clears the frame better.

I might go mast since it has the oil cooler holes already in place, you have to buy the fitting off them though... Don't know why that is but hey. Oh wait the Holley has the oil cooler ports also...

Anyone who says holley isnt baffled is uninformed :)

the holley does not have the original electric oil level sensor hole.

[Grim]

Still sopping up the drool out of the keyboard after reading the thread.

Just out of curiosity does the shifter for the Richmond come up in the stock location?

My 70 has a factory console that I'd like to keep.

Even with a 3.23 I'm cranking 2950 rpm at 70mph and I just hate keeping the 400 spun up that high on the hwy. The 3.23 is brutal on the clutch (munci 3 speed). Really liking the 3.73 and the .62 OD I believe I read you are running. Sounds much more well rounded (and better MPG) then what I have now.

[andrewb70]

Still sopping up the drool out of the keyboard after reading the thread.

Just out of curiosity does the shifter for the Richmond come up in the stock location?

My 70 has a factory console that I'd like to keep.

Even with a 3.23 I'm cranking 2950 rpm at 70mph and I just hate keeping the 400 spun up that high on the hwy. The 3.23 is brutal on the clutch (munci 3 speed). Really liking the 3.73 and the .62 OD I believe I read you are running. Sounds much more well rounded (and better MPG) then what I have now.

The shifter on the Richmond comes out about 4 inches further back than the Muncie 4 speed shifter, so the factory shifter hump will not work. I had the original shifter hump moved further back and do not have a console. I like the clean look without the console with just a simple trim ring around the shifter boot.

An O.D. is definitely the way to go if you actually want to drive the car for any extended distances.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

For the sake of continuity I wanted to post an update to what's been happening with my car. Since doing the LS swap, I really haven't been able to do many events due to the circumstances in my life. Also, the car has been in storage, with the kindness of friends, but I now have the car with me in Memphis. Back in March I looked at the schedule of events at Memphis International Raceway, and I noticed that the local BMW club holds regular autocrosses at the track. My girlfriend and I attended the March autocross hosted by the Rivercity Bimmers. As it turned out, any car is welcome to participate and the guys were all very friendly. We decided that for the next event we would bring the GTO and participate in the fun.

Yesterday was a gorgeous day. We finally had a break from the rains and the temperature was in the high 60s. There was a slight breeze, but overall, it was a great day. The course wasn't really a true autocross. There is actually a road course setup at MIR and the autocross used a section of the road course for sections of the track. It was very fast and a lot of fun. Cars were a mix of BMWs, a Miata, and a small contingent of Subarus.

The fast time of the day was set by a lightly modified Subaru STi. He ran the course in 56.xx seconds. My first run of the day was 1:04.xx, but as I got more familiar with the course and got a few pointers from a more experienced driver, I was able to get down under a minute. My best run was 59.xx, at which point I called it a day. This was about as much fun as I have had for 30 bucks...

I had a car mount for my cell phone, and I was able to capture some decent videos of my runs. I made a compilation of a several runs. Enjoy!

e5xewTdkzD0

Andrew

[droptop73]

That looked like a fun day Andrew.

[andrewb70]

I have a curse. It is the same curse that inflicts many of you. This curse makes people crazy and makes them do things for no apparent reason. I am speaking of the inability to leave well enough alone. My car is fine. It drives great, runs hard, brakes well. But I can't leave it alone.

I have never been 100% satisfied with the rear brakes. It is an older Baer Track system that uses a small C4 Corvette caliper (40mm piston bore) and a 12" rotor. When I was doing the last round of updates a few years ago, I noticed that the caliper bracket was slightly bent. I never really tracked down the reason why this might happen, but it was a little unsettling. So after doing some reading on the forum, I decided to install the 4th gen Camaro LS brake system. The LS brakes have amazingly sturdy cast iron caliper brackets, bigger calipers (45mm piston bore), and I will eventually incorporate the drum style e-brake.

Here are a few teaser shots of the components.

I sourced the brackets from a very good seller on LS1tech, who was parting out a 1999 Firebird. After a trip to the sandblaster and a couple of coats or Rustoleum Silver grill paint, they are good to go:

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo180.jpg

Being on a limited budget, I was basically forced to use re-manufactured calipers. I got on Rockauto and found that Powerstop sells a set of calipers that are powder coated red for under $150 for the pair. They look very well put together and will add a touch of matching color to the rear:

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo181.jpg

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo182.jpg

To round out the brake upgrade, I got a set of Raybestos professional grade rotors and semi-metalic pads. Raybestos is currently running a rebate of $5 per rotor and $15 for a set of pads. The rotor is coated (maybe e-coat) and should stay looking nice for a little longer than plain rotors.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo183.jpg

The other main reason for the timing of this upgrade is that I will be having the ring and pinion gear swapped by a shop. I don't have the space or tool to do any of the work myself, and I figure that since the rear end will be completely disassembled, adding new brake components should add minimal to the cost of the swap. The main reason for swapping gears is to eliminate excessive gear whine under light load. This is very annoying when going down the highway, and after talking to several trusted people, the consensus was that a new R&P set would be needed. I am also going down to a 3.42 gear (from 3.73) to reduce highway cruising RPM.

Stay tuned for further updates.

Andrew

[EFI69Cam]

Andrew,

Sorry if I missed any updates that might render this question moot.

Are you pleased with the LS7 cam in the LS3? Would you consider the LS9 cam close enough to the LS7 that your experience would apply?

I'm throwing in the towel on my project and have a LS3 shortblock I'll be putting in. At this point I'm pretty tapped out and the LS9 cam's low price and compatibility with stock LS3 push rods and springs is a big draw.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

[andrewb70]

Andrew,

Sorry if I missed any updates that might render this question moot.

Are you pleased with the LS7 cam in the LS3? Would you consider the LS9 cam close enough to the LS7 that your experience would apply?

I'm throwing in the towel on my project and have a LS3 shortblock I'll be putting in. At this point I'm pretty tapped out and the LS9 cam's low price and compatibility with stock LS3 push rods and springs is a big draw.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

For what I want from my car, the LS7 cam is perfect. I don't particularly like a lope at idle and I want a smooth broad torque curve. The LS7 cam gives me that and offers a nice bump in power over the stock LS3 cam. I think the LS9 cam is very close and if I was on a budget, I would definitely use it. I wouldn't run the LS7 or LS9 cam in a cathedral port engine, but as long as you have the square style heads, I think you would be very pleased.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Some progress has been made. I feel terrible having to outsource some of this work, but I really have no choice. Luckily, the shop where the work is being done came highly recommended and they allowed me to hang out while they did the work. The owner's son was doing the work, and he was doing a good job.

Here is the new gear installed:

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo184.jpg

The brakes were mounted on the passenger side without any drama. The caliper abutment was well spaced away from the rotor and there was no contact even when the axle was pulled out all the way against the C-clip.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo185.jpg

The driver's side, for some reason, wasn't as cooperative. The caliper abutment was nowhere close to fitting and after taking some measurements, we determined that the axle offset on the driver's side was .125" more than on the passenger side. I don't know why this is the case, but we ended up using some precision washers to space the caliper bracket away from the rear housing flange. Once that was done, everything lined up great.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo186.jpg

Luckily, the guy doing the work was paying attention and he noticed that the driver's side hard line from the center to the caliper was pinched.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo187.jpg

There were marks on the exhaust where it looked like the rear end hit during a hard bump. Since the hard line runs over the top of the axle it got smashed. New lines will be made and they will be routed along the backside of the axle tube instead of over the top.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Well, the gear swap is finally done and I couldn't be happier. It is quiet and the ratio is perfect.

The rear brakes are definitely exerting more force. This is due to the larger bore of the piston and the fact that Raybestos Advanced Technology pads are fairly aggressive, even when cold. The rear brakes lock up now, and they never did before. I have an adjustable prop valve, so if need be, I will reduce the pressure to the rear. I will hold off on doing that now, because I am first going to change the front set-up slightly.

I got ahold of Alan Bailis, who used to work at Kinesis when I bought my wheels. My name came up on his caller ID and he knew exactly who I was. Pretty amazing for a man that has serviced thousands of customer. He is now working for Fikse, but after explaining what I needed, he was able to help. I ordered two inner wheel halves that are 1.5" wide than my current wheels. This will widen my from wheels from 8" to 9.5". I checked for clearance, and I see no reason why I can't run 275 tires in the front. I am also considering running the new BFg Rival tires in 275/35 front and 295/35 rear.

When I widen the front wheels, I will also install a set of Raybestos pads on the front in place of the current Hawk HP pads. I like how the Raybestos pads work when cold and after talking to Tobin at Kore3.com, he said that I will probably like the Raybestos pads. If, after going to a wider front tire and new pads, the rear still lock up before the front, then I will reduce pressure to the rear to balance things out.

I also got my speedometer working and calibrated. As you all might recall, when I had the Richmond trans rebuilt, I had them take out the speedometer gear. I did that so I would not have to worry about the slip yoke hitting the gear. This is a concern with the Richmond 6 speed transmissions. With the loss of the speedo gear in the transmission, I no longer had a source to drive my VDO speed sensor.

Luckily, I have ATS spindles that have a built in ABS sensors in the C5/6 hubs. Dorman sells the ABS jumper harness that fits the C5/6 ABS sensor: PN 970-007.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo188.jpg

One of the leads needs to be grounded, while the other lead is the signal wire. It doesn't matter which is which. Run the signal wire to the Autometer gauge and recalibrate. The ABS sensor will start sending pulses after 2-3 turns of the wheel.

The C5/6 hubs have a 48 tooth reluctor wheel. I am running 255/40-18 tires in the front, which according to TireRack, are 801 turns per mile, so for the two mile calibration period, they will turn 1602 times.

1602 x 48 = 76,896 pulses per 2 miles. Having that information, you don't even need to measure out an accurate 2 mile stretch of road. I started my calibration and when the counter on the speedo got to 76,000 I stopped it. I compared the speedo reading to the GPS reading on my phone and the speedo was slow by about 2 mph. I assumed that the GPS is accurate. So I repeated the calibration and stopped it when the counter got to 74,000 and now the speedo reads exactly the same as the GPS.

Andrew

[mikes2nd]

interesting. I am going to have to map my 2011 Camaro transmission into my harness. I have yet to figure that one out.

That's cool you are mapping it off your abs sensor. I removed the abs sensor tail from my front hubs(C6 z06 setup up front, spindles, hubs, calipers, etc)...

[andrewb70]

What ECU are you using? The 2011 Camaro transmission has a VSS on it. Nothing crazy about it. Just plug n play.

Andrew

[mikes2nd]

What ECU are you using? The 2011 Camaro transmission has a VSS on it. Nothing crazy about it. Just plug n play.

Andrew

I am using a LS1 ecu, drive by cable, the lingerfelter reluctor computer, fast throttle body on a ls3

[andrewb70]

I am using a LS1 ecu, drive by cable, the lingerfelter reluctor computer, fast throttle body on a ls3

You should be able to plug that harness with into the vss on your transmission.

Andrew

[wayward]

Andrew,

I have read in a post in the past from you that you had a really high effert steering box.

Do you know your ratios and effort valve numbers?

I have a chance to pick up a new 600 box with a 12.7:1 and a .250 valve. But am concerned that it will be too stiff. I'm really just looking for a reference from someone with real world experience..

Thanks,
Eric

[andrewb70]

Andrew,

I have read in a post in the past from you that you had a really high effert steering box.

Do you know your ratios and effort valve numbers?

I have a chance to pick up a new 600 box with a 12.7:1 and a .250 valve. But am concerned that it will be too stiff. I'm really just looking for a reference from someone with real world experience..

Thanks,
Eric

Eric,

Sorry for the delayed response. I am using a steering box made by AGR. It has a 12.7:1 ratio. I do not know what valve it has, but I can tell you that the steering effort is much higher than a stock box. I am sorry for not having more tech on the subject. Keep in mind that tire size will also effect effort.

Andrew

[wayward]

Thanks. I'm going to try it. I assume I can have it revalved in needed...

EL

[andrewb70]

It is time to post a few updates on the car. I haven't really been driving it much this summer because of a lack of time, but I am getting excited for my next event. I just registered for the Holley LS Fest and it is time to get the car ready. Here is a list of things that I plan on doing.

1. I noticed when the car gets hot, while siting in traffic, the steering effort increases. I double checked the fluid level and even though it doesn't seem to be boiling or spilling out, I decided to add a power steering cooler. I realize there are various options for this, but it seems that the easiest and most sanitary install will be to use the 4th gen f-body cooler that mounts in the upper radiator hose. Several people have mentioned that this might not be the best solution, but I have the cooler already and I will give it a try.

2. I changed my rear brakes over to 4th gen f-body "LS1" brakes using Raybestos premium pads. I chose these pads after several conversations with Toby at Kore3. As much as I want to believe that I have a race car, I do not, and thus I need my brakes to work even when they are cold. The Raybestos pads have a similar friction profile to the Hawk HP pads. I will be swapping out the Hawk HP pads, that I have in the front, to the Raybestos premium pads, to match the rears.

3. There is no denying that having bigger front tires is more desirable. My current tire size is 255/40-18. I've been running this size mainly because my front wheels are only 8" wide. During the recent brake upgrades, I've had the opportunity to really examine how much room I have in the front, and it was clear that I can go with a wider tire and wheel in the front. I managed to track down Alan Balis, who used to work for Kinesis wheels, and after getting some measurements, he sent me these:

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo190.jpg

The beauty of having 3-piece wheels is that they can be altered to suit the needs of the application. These are wider inner hoops that will increase the width of my front tires to 9.5" :screwy:

4. With the increase in the front wheel size, I now need bigger tires. I struggled long at hard over my tire choice. My current tires are Falken R615s, which are admittedly an older tire technology. Falken does make a new version of that tire, called the 615k, but I was reluctant to use them because of size availability. I currently run a 295/40-18 in the rear. This is a 27" diameter tire. I want to run a 275/35-18 tire in the front, which is 25.5" tall. I felt that from an aesthetic perspective, the front tires would look too small compared to the rear and it would look funny. Again, as much as I want to believe that I have a race car, I don't, and looks are a factor. Ideally, I would run a 295/35-18 in the rear, but Falken doesn't offer that size in the 615K....

So, the choice was pretty clear. BF Goodrich just came out with their new Rival tire, and by all accounts, this tire kicks a$$. So I pulled the trigger on a set of these:

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo189.jpg

The 275/35 fronts and 295/35 rears are a perfect match. The rear is about 26" tall, which is a hair taller than the fronts. They are designed to be used on 9.5" and 10.5" wide wheels, which is exactly what I will have after widening the fronts. The Rivals are a true street tire, with a tread wear rating of 200, which allows me to use them at events like the Holley LS Fest. Using the Rivals was just a natural choice. I am very excited to get them on the car and see how they work, both on the street and on the autocross track.

I will be doing these upgrades sometime in August, so stay tuned for more pictures of the installation process.

Andrew

[69*Goat]

That is pretty sweet Andrew. My 295/35-18 Rivals will be here Friday!!!!!

[Ron Sutton]

Andrew asked me to work up some brake calcs for the new system.

Andrew, you mentioned possibly going to a 7/8" dual M/C. I was already on that page & included it in option #2 & 3.

Here they are with options.

81205

[andrewb70]

Ron,

Thank you for working up the numbers. What kind of total braking torque numbers should I be shooting for, given the weight of my car?

Andrew





Andrew asked me to work up some brake calcs for the new system.

Andrew, you mentioned possibly going to a 7/8" dual M/C. I was already on that page & included it in option #2 & 3.

Here they are with options.

81205

[Ron Sutton]

Ron,

Thank you for working up the numbers. What kind of total braking torque numbers should I be shooting for, given the weight of my car?

Andrew

With the tire you're running ... I suggest somewhere around 2500# to 3000# of brake torque.

[andrewb70]

With the tire you're running ... I suggest somewhere around 2500# to 3000# of brake torque.



Ron,

I am going to try to locate a Dodge 7/8" bore MC in the area and see if I can adapt it. I know that the mounting holes don't quite line up, but I have heard that the spacing is not that far off. Are you at all familiar with this swap?

Andrew

[Ron Sutton]

Ron,

I am going to try to locate a Dodge 7/8" bore MC in the area and see if I can adapt it. I know that the mounting holes don't quite line up, but I have heard that the spacing is not that far off. Are you at all familiar with this swap?

Andrew

Sorry, I am not. Frankly, I'm the worst guy to ask about swapping parts from different applications.

I simply don't have experience in that area. I always marvel at hot rodders that know this part & that part off of one car will work on another. But my experience is primarily building race cars. So I'm used to working with new parts ... or in certain cases, stock parts off a production car ... when race series rules call for it in specific classes.

I do believe Wilwood makes a 7/8" dual M/C. Best wishes.

[andrewb70]

Ron,

Thanks for the help. Wilwood does make a 7/8" bore MC, but it is $230 bucks and has a very annoying reservoir cover that requires an allen wrench to remove.

I am going to get the Dodge MC, which I can find locally for $60 bucks. It has a plastic reservoir with screw on caps. Hat tip to Carl C for the Dodge MC trick.

Ill keep everyone posted on my progress.

Andrew

[howehot]

I used a 70 corvette unit. $23.00 but weights a lot.

[andrewb70]

I used a 70 corvette unit. $23.00 but weights a lot.

I think the 70 Corvette MC has a 1" bore. That's not going to work. I am trying to increase the pressure to the caliper which requires using a smaller bore MC than I have now. Currently I have a 15/16" bore MC that has worked OK, but I think I can do better. I just picked up a new Dodge 7/8" bore MC at the parts store for under $60 and it looks great. It has a deep hole for the pushrod and is aluminum with a plastic reservoir and screw on caps. I'll post a picture a little later.

Andrew

[howehot]

I think the 70 Corvette MC has a 1" bore. That's not going to work. I am trying to increase the pressure to the caliper which requires using a smaller bore MC than I have now. Currently I have a 15/16" bore MC that has worked OK, but I think I can do better. I just picked up a new Dodge 7/8" bore MC at the parts store for under $60 and it looks great. It has a deep hole for the pushrod and is aluminum with a plastic reservoir and screw on caps. I'll post a picture a little later.

Andrew

My memory may be wrong but I believe the 70 Corvette, manual disc brake, mc is a 7/8 bore. This has worked great with my 13" Wilwoods. I know a lot of people are using the dodge mc in drag cars but couldn't convince myself to put it on my Chevy.

[andrewb70]

My memory may be wrong but I believe the 70 Corvette, manual disc brake, mc is a 7/8 bore. This has worked great with my 13" Wilwoods. I know a lot of people are using the dodge mc in drag cars but couldn't convince myself to put it on my Chevy.

The 70 Corvette manual MC has a 1" bore:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I would be curious to know what the rest of your system consists of and how much your car weighs. Your pedal must be pretty firm unless you have a high pedal ratio.

Andrew

[subtlez28]

Andrew

I cannot remember right off the top of my head which MC was suggested to me for my C5 brake set up on the Buick. I think it was mid 70's GM A-body w manual brakes.

A quick look on Rockauto shows a 15/16" bore unit for a 75 Malibu.

I'll get back to you if I can locate the exact info.

[andrewb70]

Andrew

I cannot remember right off the top of my head which MC was suggested to me for my C5 brake set up on the Buick. I think it was mid 70's GM A-body w manual brakes.

A quick look on Rockauto shows a 15/16" bore unit for a 75 Malibu.

I'll get back to you if I can locate the exact info.

Shaun,

No worries. I think I was the one that suggested to you to use the 1977 Malibu 15/16" bore MC. LOL...I already have that MC installed on my GTO. I am looking for a low cost 7/8" bore manual MC. This Dodge unit seems to be the ticket. I like the all aluminum construction and the plastic reservoir.

Andrew

[NvrDun71]

Happen to have the part # for the Dodge unit?

[howehot]

The 70 Corvette manual MC has a 1" bore:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

I would be curious to know what the rest of your system consists of and how much your car weighs. Your pedal must be pretty firm unless you have a high pedal ratio.

Andrew

System consist of wilwood 13" with 6 piston front and 4 rear, wilwood adjustable portioning valve, and the Corvette master. The Monte Carlo weights 3407# with a full tank of gas. I used the factory brake pedal and raised the rod to the top hole in the pedal, same as non power factory g-bodies. Jeff Schwartz recommended this mc when I ask which unit to use when I picked up the chassis. Pedal is firm but very manageable. The weight is the biggest disadvantage.

[andrewb70]

Happen to have the part # for the Dodge unit?

There are numerous options from various manufacturers. The application is 1995 Dodge Spirit with manual brakes (14" wheels). I got my MC from O'Reilley Auto Parts. It is brand new, is made out of aluminum, included the reservoir, and seems to be well made.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Yesterday afternoon I got down to the task of of getting the car ready for the Holley LS Fest, which is only a couple of weeks away, and performing the few little upgrades that I had planned. First order of business was to take the front wheels off the car, break them down, install the wider inner hoop, reassemble, and reseal.

The wheels started life as being 8" wide. In case anyone was wondering, wheel width is measured at the area where the tire bead sits, not on the outside edges.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo191.jpg

Here is the backside of the wheel. Notice the generous scalloping on the back side of the spokes and the hub area of the wheel. This is the reason why this particular wheel is only about 20 pounds. Also notice the generous amount of brake dust. I drive this car!

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo192.jpg

There are 40 fasteners that hold the wheel together. Once the nuts are removed, the wheel center comes out and the wheel halves can be separated. Notice the dead bugs on the inside of the wheels.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo193.jpg

After disassembly, I cleaned the wheel centers with hot water and soap. This works very well to remove all the brake dust and general grime. The wider inner hoop was installed and the fasteners were torqued to 18 lb/ft, in two steps, and in a start pattern, much like when you torque lug nuts.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo194.jpg

Here is the finished wheel, now 9.5" wide and ready for the new BFG Rival 275/35-18 front tires. Important safety tip: make sure you let the silicone dry before putting air in the tires. The pressure will penetrate the uncured seal and will leak, resulting in taking the tire off and doing the seal over again. Not fun!

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo195.jpg

This is what we saw after taking the tire off the leaking wheel. The pressure pushed air through the spaces between the fastners and created multiple leaks.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo197.jpg

Here is the rear Rival compared to the Falken 615...

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo196.jpg

Today I will be installing the Dodge 7/8" bore MC, so stay tuned for more updates.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

As promised, here are some details for the Dodge 7/8" bore MC. This is what you get for about $60 bucks at O'Reilly Auto Parts. It is a MC for a 1995 Dodge Spirit with manual brakes (14" wheels). This particular model is brand new, made out of aluminum and has a plastic reservoir. These are all features that I like. Wilwood makes a nice 7'8" bore, direct bolt-in MC, but it has a reservoir lid that can only be taken off with an allen wrench. While it looks nice, I want to be able to check the fluid level without getting my tool box out.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo198.jpg

This MC has two ports that have rather small fittings. The catalog description lists the outlet ports as being 3/8" inverted flair, but they sure seemed smaller.

The rear port of the MC is plumbed to the front brakes and nothing was needed to attache the line. The front port of the MC is plumbed to the rear line and required an adapter fitting that you can see in the picture. However, this adapter was too small for the fitting that was on my rear brake line, so what we decided to do was bend another line for the rear brakes. That way if I ever wanted to swap back to the other MC, it would be very simple to swap lines. We bent up a 5/16" line, using the old line as a template. It was fairly straight forward and simple.

The other issue with using this MC is that the mounting holes don't quite match the GM pattern. As you can see, we elected to notch the holes to make it easier.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo199.jpg

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo200.jpg

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo201.jpg

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo202.jpg

The other issue with using this MC is that the pushrod hole is not as deep as the GM MC I was using, so the rod had to be shortened. The tip of the rod also had to be ground down slightly because the Dodge MC has a smaller diameter hole.

The bottom line is that this MC is a fairly easy swap into GM vehicles and is a viable OEM alternative to some of the aftermarket offerings. With a little ingenuity it can be made to work in applications that require a 7/8" bore MC.

The brakes feel very different now. The pedal feel is softer but I haven't really noticed a big increase in pedal travel. I am now easily able to lock up the brakes, when before I couldn't. Clearly the MC is generating more force at the caliper, which is what Ron was attempting to show with his spreadsheet.

A huge thanks to Ron Sutton for giving me the last needed nudge to make the swap to the 7/8" MC.

To wrap it up, here is a picture of the 275/35-18 BFG Rivals on the front.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo203.jpg

There is mild rubbing on the sway bar at the extremes, but I don't see this as a huge issue. I may run a small spacer in the front if it become annoying, but for now I am going to work on a few other minor issues before the Holley LS Fest.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

After I had made my previous posts, I realized that I never posted a picture of the MC as it was finally installed. You can see the new 5/16" rear line along with the adapter that was needed. The rear port for the front brakes worked as is.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo204.jpg

I also want to make some comments regarding my first impressions of the Rival tires. I haven't really had a chance to test out the handling, but I can say that the tires are very sticky. I was driving and happened to go over a spot that has some loose sand and I could hear the tires picking up every little pebble as I drove over them. Also, with the Falkens, even when they were new, I could be rolling slowly in 1st gear, punch the throttle, and the tires would spin until I let off or shifted. With the Rivals, doing exactly the same thing, the tires dead hook. I am really excited to get the car out on the autocross and on the drag strip.

Andrew

[Ron Sutton]

The brakes feel very different now. The pedal feel is softer but I haven't really noticed a big increase in pedal travel. I am now easily able to lock up the brakes, when before I couldn't. Clearly the MC is generating more force at the caliper, which is what Ron was attempting to show with his spreadsheet.

A huge thanks to Ron Sutton for giving me the last needed nudge to make the swap to the 7/8" MC.

Andrew

No worries. Glad to help.

[69*Goat]

I also want to make some comments regarding my first impressions of the Rival tires. I haven't really had a chance to test out the handling, but I can say that the tires are very sticky. I was driving and happened to go over a spot that has some loose sand and I could hear the tires picking up every little pebble as I drove over them. Also, with the Falkens, even when they were new, I could be rolling slowly in 1st gear, punch the throttle, and the tires would spin until I let off or shifted. With the Rivals, doing exactly the same thing, the tires dead hook. I am really excited to get the car out on the autocross and on the drag strip.

Andrew

I can hear my drive line parts breaking now as I read this. My rear end carrier will need to be replaced ASAP.

[andrewb70]

If I can't toot my own horn, who will?

Got a nice 4 page feature story in the current (February 2014) issue of GM High Performance and a action shot from LS Fest in the current (February 2014) issue of Popular Hotrodding. Woot!!!

Andrew

[Ron Sutton]

If I can't toot my own horn, who will?

Got a nice 4 page feature story in the current (February 2014) issue of GM High Performance and a action shot from LS Fest in the current (February 2014) issue of Popular Hotrodding. Woot!!!

Andrew

Nice !!!!

[BossaNova]

Andrew, always loved your build thread.

I hope you continue to update.

[ETexGTO]

Very nice! Congrats!!

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/events/1308_holley_s_annual_ls_fest_comes_to_town/photo_03.html#

[andrewb70]

Very nice! Congrats!!

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/events/1308_holley_s_annual_ls_fest_comes_to_town/photo_03.html#

That picture was actually taken at LS Fest in 2011. I don't believe PHR has coverage for the 2013 LS Fest up on their website yet.

Andrew

[jerome]

Hello Everyone...

I have to apologize for the less than timely update to this thread. It has been a very busy week and a crazy few days. As promised here are a few more pictures of the CV driveshaft from the DSS.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo158.jpg

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo157.jpg

On Wednesday I headed out from Pigeon Forge to Bowling Green, KY. It was the most pleasant drive I have ever done in my GTO. The vibration that I was experiencing before is now completely gone. The car was smooth as glass at all reasonable highway speeds. I ran it up to about 90 and there were no noticeable driveline vibrations that I could detect.

From BG, KY I headed to Chicago to pick up my son. On Friday morning we headed out to the Lane Automotive Motor State Challenge. My goal for attending the event was to enjoy some time with my son and reconnect with some car friends. However, I couldn't resist taking my car on the Gingerman race track. I also figured that some track time will really test my newly rebuilt transmission and the new driveshaft. Gingerman has two long straights where the car can be easily taken up to over 120 mph.

On Saturday we headed to the track, passed tech, and were ready to go. I ran three sessions with my son riding shotgun and managed to get into the to 16 in the Pro-Touring class which consisted of any vehicle older than 30 years. My best time was 1:55.xx At high speeds the driveline was super smooth and the car performed very well. No drama, no puking fluids, 200 degree water temp.

I will post more later...

Andrew


Andrew,

Great project - good to see the evolution of the GTO over the years. I am on the verge of getting a DSS driveshaft for my S10 project. Long driveshaft length with a 5 degree operating angle at the transmission means I will need to get a very similar driveshaft to yours.

Just wanted to see whether you have continued to be happy with yours and how it has held up to all the driving you have been doing.

Thanks,
Jerome

[andrewb70]

Andrew,

Great project - good to see the evolution of the GTO over the years. I am on the verge of getting a DSS driveshaft for my S10 project. Long driveshaft length with a 5 degree operating angle at the transmission means I will need to get a very similar driveshaft to yours.

Just wanted to see whether you have continued to be happy with yours and how it has held up to all the driving you have been doing.

Thanks,
Jerome

Thanks Jerome,

Yes, the car is still very smooth and I attribute that to the CV driveshaft. If I had to do it over again, I would have Frank uses a non-telescoping CV joint. The slip in the CV is not needed since the yoke is still a slip design.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Thanks GM High-Tech Performance!!!

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com/features/1402_1970_pontiac_gto_ls3_swap/

Andrew

[andrewb70]

There have been various discussion on several forums that I frequent regarding driveline vibrations, angles, etc...

In one of the posts, I made the comment that just about every modern, rear wheel drive, performance car uses CV joints for the driveshaft. We spent all kinds of stupid money to buy the latest engine, transmission, and suspension parts, but when it comes to our driveline components, we still use u-joints that date back to the 19th century. I have used a CV driveshaft with great success, but the optimal solution would be to use a driveshaft that uses a CV joint at both the transmission end and at the pinion. So I called Frank at The Driveshaft Shop to discuss this further and after telling him all this he starts to laugh. Then he proceeds to tell me how he just made a batch of pinion yokes for the Ford 9" and the Chevy 12 bolt rear ends that will accommodate a 108mm (Porsche 930 style) CV joint. He sent me the picture below:

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo205.jpg

That particular yoke is for the Ford 9" rear. What this means is that if someone wants the ultimate solution for a driveshaft, this is it. Using CVs at both ends of the driveshaft means that driveline angles become largely irrelevant. The CVs can accommodate up to 9 degrees of articulation and the front and rear angles operating don't have to match, be opposite, or be as small as possible.

Andrew

[wiedemab]

Very Cool!

[tommycomfort]

Somehow I've missed this thread for a long time. Now one of these days I will go through the whole thing, but for now, I will just keep up with the new things!

[raustinss]

Andrew

Don't suppose you know if the 12 bolt design is a high dollar item do you?

Ryan Austin

[andrewb70]

Andrew

Don't suppose you know if the 12 bolt design is a high dollar item do you?

Ryan Austin

Ryan,

Frank and I didn't discuss cost, but I would imagine that it is comparable to other billet yokes on the market.

Andrew

[csouth]

There have been various discussion on several forums that I frequent regarding driveline vibrations, angles, etc...

In one of the posts, I made the comment that just about every modern, rear wheel drive, performance car uses CV joints for the driveshaft. We spent all kinds of stupid money to buy the latest engine, transmission, and suspension parts, but when it comes to our driveline components, we still use u-joints that date back to the 19th century. I have used a CV driveshaft with great success, but the optimal solution would be to use a driveshaft that uses a CV joint at both the transmission end and at the pinion. So I called Frank at The Driveshaft Shop to discuss this further and after telling him all this he starts to laugh. Then he proceeds to tell me how he just made a batch of pinion yokes for the Ford 9" and the Chevy 12 bolt rear ends that will accommodate a 108mm (Porsche 930 style) CV joint. He sent me the picture below:

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo205.jpg

That particular yoke is for the Ford 9" rear. What this means is that if someone wants the ultimate solution for a driveshaft, this is it. Using CVs at both ends of the driveshaft means that driveline angles become largely irrelevant. The CVs can accommodate up to 9 degrees of articulation and the front and rear angles operating don't have to match, be opposite, or be as small as possible.

Andrew

Nice piece! Are these readily available for sale?

[andrewb70]

Nice piece! Are these readily available for sale?

Frank said that he has them in stock.

Andrew

[jerome]

I have used a CV driveshaft with great success, but the optimal solution would be to use a driveshaft that uses a CV joint at both the transmission end and at the pinion.

Andrew - can you explain why you would need a CV joint at the pinion end of the driveshaft? Of course a CV joint at the transmission joint is useful, because packaging constraints sometimes force front u-joint operating angles to be larger than 3 degrees. However, I can't think of any rear suspension setups where pinion angle isn't adjustable. I understand CV joints are still stronger than 1350 u-joints, but if a 1350 is sufficient and you can get rear operating angle to less than 1 degree, why would you spend the extra money for a rear CV joint?

[andrewb70]

Andrew - can you explain why you would need a CV joint at the pinion end of the driveshaft? Of course a CV joint at the transmission joint is useful, because packaging constraints sometimes force front u-joint operating angles to be larger than 3 degrees. However, I can't think of any rear suspension setups where pinion angle isn't adjustable. I understand CV joints are still stronger than 1350 u-joints, but if a 1350 is sufficient and you can get rear operating angle to less than 1 degree, why would you spend the extra money for a rear CV joint?

In a static configuration (car at rest) you're absolutely correct. However, we know that cars are driven and when forces are applied to the rear axle the pinion will have a tendency to rise. How much or how little depends on the suspension design and the bushing material, but the pinion can move a surprising amount. Also, under various conditions it can move a lot or adjust a little, based on how much power is being applied. So while it is fine to set-up the pinion angle so that the rear u-joint working angle is less than 1 degree (this is what is recommended with a from CV joint) it is difficult to dial that angle in under a wide variety of conditions. With the CV at the pinion, the amount of pinion climb become largely irrelevant.

Andrew

[raustinss]

I search the website and nothing was a there, I emailed the driveshaft shop and was promptly replied to. The pinion yoke is in stock and in the case of the 12 bolt rearend its price is 199.99$ probably safe to assume that the ford 9" would be a similar price. I also asked what a very rough price would be for a gm A body carbon fiber driveshaft with cv joints at each end. If you want to know what the price is pm me. As I don't want anyone on here calling up the driveshaft shop and trying to hold them to a price that was intended for me and I did state a very rough price. It's not that I don't trust anyone but I think it's just the best way to prevent problems.
Regardless I will be taking a page from Andrews gto and going the same route for my chevelle
Ryan Austin

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

oh shoot, Andrew putting in work!

[INTMD8]

That CV pinion yoke is super nice!!!

[andrewb70]

That CV pinion yoke is super nice!!!

I wish Frank had it available when I got my driveshaft made.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Well...just like many of you, I can't seem to leave it alone. I am all moved to my new place and I finally have a garage again. I decided to do a little tinkering with the sub and did a little experiment...see link...

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/108649-JL-MicroSub-experiment

After goofing around with the MicroSub, I decided to really take a look with my existing set-up. I discovered that the rear package tray was not exactly solid. The "professionals" that installed the box in the first place, cut out a huge square section right out of the middle, which really weakened the package tray. This isn't so much of an issue, unless there is a 50 pound box with a substantial sub attached to it. I am quite certain that the whole package tray used to move around quite a bit, which isn't exactly ideal. Also, I found that the box itself wasn't well made. Part of it was made of MDF, while another part was made of regular particle board. Also, instead of installing a proper terminal, they simply made a hole in the box, passed the wire through, and called it a day. No silicone...nothing...not even gum.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo207.jpg

On a brighter note, once I pulled the sub, I realize that it was a Diamond Audio M6...and not a M3 as I originally thought. This was the top of the line sub back in the day and has dual 500w 4 ohm voice coils.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo206.jpg

At least they wired it properly for a 2 ohm load. The other good news is that the box is the right size for the driver. Diamond Audio designed these subs to work in fairly small sealed enclosures, around .75 cubic feet. I took some measurements and after a few calculations got .72 cubic feet, after taking the volume of the driver into account. The good news is that with a little TLC, I think I can reuse this box. It is just the right size to fit on top of the hump that GM A-bodies have in the trunk and obviously the volume is right.

So now the questions...

Would it be better to point the driver towards the rear?

Would it be better to point the driver towards the rear seat back?

Any suggestions for anchoring this thing?

I am also quite certain that I am not driving this bad boy with enough power. Right now it is getting 350 watts, and that's just not enough. I bet the driver isn't even broken in.

I did pick up a used Xtant 601 a while back, so I am tempted to use it for the sub.

All comments and suggestions are welcome...

Andrew

[andrewb70]

In short, FML.

I spent about 6 hours doing this:

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo209.jpg

Only to try this afterwards:

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo208.jpg

What look like cheap ass 12" Kenwoods totally rocked...If only I had done that first...as I said, FML.

Andrew

[csouth]

I had some diamond d2's and they didn't hit as hard as I expected them to. I'm going to put my JL audios in whenver I get to that point in my life...lol

[andrewb70]

I had some diamond d2's and they didn't hit as hard as I expected them to. I'm going to put my JL audios in whenver I get to that point in my life...lol

Today I actually put the box with the Diamond in the same position as the Kenwoods and it sounds pretty good. I am contemplating building a fiberglass box that will fit snugly behind the seat towards the passenger side and fires the driver to the rear. This sub only requires a .5-.75 cubic foot box, so it should be nice and tidy.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

I scratched the fiberglass box idea. Instead, I decided that it would be simpler and easier to build a shelf behind the seat that would support the sub on the passenger side and allow for space for the amp on the driver's side.

Here is what I came up with. It isn't super pretty, but it will do the job. The trunk of my car was never meant to be a show piece, it is there to haul crap.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo212.jpg

The shelf is 1/2" MDF and is supported by the hump in the middle and some trimmed down 2x4s on the edges. The 2x4s will be attached to the trunk divider and the sub will be anchored to the bottom of the package tray. Should be pretty solid.

Here you can see where the amp will go.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo213.jpg

There will be ample space all around it for cooling and all the wires will come in from behind and underneath and should look pretty clean.

I even decided that I should make everything a little prettier and wrapped the sub in black felt and I will do the same for the shelf.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo214.jpg

Stay tuned for more, as I just placed an order with Don at Sound Deadener Showdown (http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com)

This is turning into sub/interior sound deadener redo...

Any comments and suggestions are welcome as always.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Today I wrapped up the sub-woofer installation. It's really a pain to work so deep inside the trunk. Luckily I had the rear seat out and I could get at some of what I needed to do from inside the passenger compartment.

Here is a shot of the shelf after I wrapped it with some felt:

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo215.jpg

All of the wiring for the amp goes under the shell and is tucked towards the back.

Here is the final product.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo216.jpg

I've also been playing around with making videos for those of you that prefer that sort of thing...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6sdxAcQHTY&list=UU8a3QHlrv6ZmwvkR8gqPfiw

All questions and comments are welcome as always.

Andrew

[pist0lpete]

Andrew unlike the driveline issues you chased it appears you have the "good vibrations" going now. Sorry I couldn't resist...

[redsand]

Hey Andrew. I know this will be a pain but I would dynamat the entire rear trunk or at least part of the back taillight section....You dont want to be that guy that when you drive by all you hear is the taillights rattling from inside the trunk...plus you will be very suprised how well the bass will hits after you do that. Dont remember the specs on that sub but it also might sound better if someone builds you a tuned ported box. You could then depending on the port size / length route it up through your hole in the package tray and not have to worry about any rattles in the trunk. Just not sure if that sub model is more efficient in a ported box or not.

[andrewb70]

Hey Andrew. I know this will be a pain but I would dynamat the entire rear trunk or at least part of the back taillight section....You dont want to be that guy that when you drive by all you hear is the taillights rattling from inside the trunk...plus you will be very suprised how well the bass will hits after you do that. Dont remember the specs on that sub but it also might sound better if someone builds you a tuned ported box. You could then depending on the port size / length route it up through your hole in the package tray and not have to worry about any rattles in the trunk. Just not sure if that sub model is more efficient in a ported box or not.

I ordered CLD tiles just for that purpose. There are already large patches of CLD (Cascade Audio V-Max) on the inner side of the rear quarter panels, but more will be added inside the trunk area. The tail lights and the trunk are definitely rattling some, and that will be addressed.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Yesterday I tackled another project. Since I removed the subwoofer from under the rear package tray, I was not faced with having a hole in the rear package tray trim piece. I had some nice vinyl that I had purchased a while back, so I decided to cover the package tray with it. The end result wasn't perfect, but I think it turned out pretty well..

Follow along:


http://youtu.be/NqWAn1Bg2p4

Andrew

[Mr Nick]

Is that an access panel for a fuel pump? I need to build something like that as well...

100238

[andrewb70]

Yes it is...It comes in very handy when the fuel pump needs to be serviced.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

As always, little projects tend to take on a life of their own. What started out as a simple subwoofer reconfiguration turned into a rear seat sound deadener project as well.

As I said before, I used products from www.sounddeadenershowdown.com. The methodology that they describe involves a two step process.

First, the metal is prepared using CLD tiles to deaden the metallic ringing that is common when raw steel is tapped or banged. The CLD tiles have an aluminum top and the bottom is a very sticky butyl material. The goal is to apply it to about 25-30% of the panel around it's center mass.

Second, a layer of closed cell foam is applied over the whole area and on top of that mass loaded vinyl is laid to block any sound from penetrating into the passenger compartment.

I applied the CLD tiles all over my package tray, the rear seat/trunk separator panel, and the area under the rear seat. Then I started at the top of the package tray and went all the way to the front of the rear seats with the foam and the MLV. The MLV is hard to work with as it does not mold well and it only bends in one direction. On the other hand, MLV can be bonded (almost welded) to itself using special vinyl adhesive. Using the adhesive I was able to form a solid sheet all the way from the top of the package tray and bond it solidly to the vinyl that was already there which stopped at the rear seat area.

Here is the finished product:

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo217.jpg

Ideally, I would have also covered the side panels the same way, but I discovered that the foam and vinyl add thickness which creates fitment problems with all the trim panels. Ultimately I decided that this was as far as I was going to go for now.

First driving impression is that what I did definitely reduced the driveline noise that was penetrating the cabin. This made for much quieter driving experience when going down the highway.

Andrew

[Rick Dorion]

Very nice job, Andrew. Do you have any other pics of the earlier stages?

[andrewb70]

I shot some video that shows more of the installation process of the sound deadener. The video is a little longer than I wanted, but it is what it is...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ygU6rKYf-0

Andrew

[INTMD8]

Looks nice!

Did you notice any difference in cabin noise after the sound deadener?

[Later-A-body]

Looks like you got a lot of work done Andrew. I am getting ready to do the entire interior insulation on my fathers '65 GTO, so your video is timed perfectly.

[andrewb70]

Looks nice!

Did you notice any difference in cabin noise after the sound deadener?

Today I went on a 150 mile road trip and I think there is less road and drivetrain noise. I can't seem to get the rear end from making noise under coast conditions, despite just having had a new R&P installed last year. So there is still a little noise whine, but it is less than it was before.

I think if I was to do the installation as it was intended (forming a bowl all the way up to the top of the doors) that would help a lot. The issue is that with the added thickness of the insulation material, fitting interior trim panels becomes a challenge. If a whole interior was planned ahead of time with that in mind, it would be much easier.

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Haters are going to hate...LOL

https://www.facebook.com/highperformancepontiac

Andrew

[David LaBuda]

You should swap the 12 bolt for a 9 inch. Then the heads will really start to roll haha

[Nicks67GTO]

Haters are going to hate...LOL

https://www.facebook.com/highperformancepontiac

Andrew

Truth....I bet most of them don't even own running musclecars and if they do..... they sit in the garage.

[Interceptor5588]

Whateva. It's your car, build it how you want it and who cares what "they" think.

[andrewb70]

Whateva. It's your car, build it how you want it and who cares what "they" think.

Believe me, I don't care. I've had this car since I was 15, and it's been "done" for over 12 years. It's been in three magazines, has about 20k miles on it, and it still looks modern. Must have done something right.

Andrew

[ekmxryda]

Haha love the half breed comments! I love Pontiac engines too but removing 200 pounds from the front of the car really helps with handling.
I am bracing myself for the comments on my GTO when it is finished someday, I am sure some will say I ruined a real classic, and I will just have to smile and agree with them.

[andrewb70]

Haha love the half breed comments! I love Pontiac engines too but removing 200 pounds from the front of the car really helps with handling.
I am bracing myself for the comments on my GTO when it is finished someday, I am sure some will say I ruined a real classic, and I will just have to smile and agree with them.

I wonder how all those guys would feel about a whole frame swap...or having a 9" rear....or a Tremec transmission...They get so butthurt over the engine swap as if there is something magical about Pontiac engines or cars for that matter. They are just a collection of metal, plastic, and rubber...:1st:

There is nothing fun about driving cars that are restored to original condition. They are just newer junky old cars. I remember driving my GTO with stock suspension and it drove like a crappy old car. Then again, I haven't has stock suspension since 1990 when I first installed a complete package from H-O Racing.

Andrew

[Nicks67GTO]

Iv'e caught some hell for having a real 242 67' GTO with a 9" but somehow, putting a chevy 12 bolt in a Poncho is ok in their eyes...since its GM? Whut? Those guys are dip****s.

At this stage of the game the only thing left in my GTO that's actually PMD original is the 455, the sheetmetal and for a short time the driveshaft. Now we all know 67's didn't come with a 455, so that isn't quite right either but somehow I haven't desecrated the holy Pontiac grail since I have a Pontiac engine. The funny thing is I might stay with a Poncho mill for my own reasons but the only thing that will be PMD original would be the block.....that's it, the block and that's if I don't do an MR1 or IAII.....in that case absolutely nothing in my car would be PMD.

[Nicks67GTO]

I wonder how all those guys would feel about a whole frame swap...or having a 9" rear....or a Tremec transmission...They get so butthurt over the engine swap as if there is something magical about Pontiac engines or cars for that matter. They are just a collection of metal, plastic, and rubber...:1st:

There is nothing fun about driving cars that are restored to original condition. They are just newer junky old cars. I remember driving my GTO with stock suspension and it drove like a crappy old car. Then again, I haven't has stock suspension since 1990 when I first installed a complete package from H-O Racing.

Andrew

Agree 100% on the original restos. Iv'e driven enough musclecars in stock form to know I don't want one. The only way i'm restoring original is if I have something classified as unobtanium....a 69 Boss429, 69 ZL1, 71 Hemi Cuda, something super rare with tons of collector value.

The magic in the Pontiac mill is all in the aftermarket that's come alive in the last 10 years. It's pretty easy to build huge power for a reasonable amount of money now, where it wasn't easy 10-15 years ago unless you had deep pockets. Truth time.... I would love nothing more than to build a fuel injected IAII 535" McCarty RA-V for my car.....just for the cool factor. Oh man.... lots of cool factor there. Unfortunately that cool factor would buy me a nice truck and probably get about 8MPG. I completely get the LS thing. Its still on the table for me and I go back and forth on it about once a week. I was looking at LSA's a few weeks ago. The price on a 550hp LS swap vs a 550hp Poncho build is probably close enough to call it a wash.

[ekmxryda]

Hey Andrew, I was inspired back in the mid 80's by an article in Hot Rod (I think) where H-O Racing took a 64 or 65 GTO and made it handle with a set of taller 2nd Gen Camaro spindles.
I wish I could find the article, maybe I still have the magazine hidden away. They called it the Corvette killer, the skidpad results were impressive even by todays standards.
Maybe someone else has more details on it? For me that was the start of Pro-Touring.

105437

[andrewb70]

Hey Andrew, I was inspired back in the mid 80's by an article in Hot Rod (I think) where H-O Racing took a 64 or 65 GTO and made it handle with a set of taller 2nd Gen Camaro spindles.
I wish I could find the article, maybe I still have the magazine hidden away. They called it the Corvette killer, the skidpad results were impressive even by todays standards.
Maybe someone else has more details on it? For me that was the start of Pro-Touring.


Eric,

I'm pretty sure I know the exact article that you're talking about. It came out right around the time when I got my GTO. I was a teenager so I couldn't afford any of those parts, but a few years later I installed everything except the tall spindles.

Andrew

[mikes2nd]

Haha love the half breed comments! I love Pontiac engines too but removing 200 pounds from the front of the car really helps with handling.
I am bracing myself for the comments on my GTO when it is finished someday, I am sure some will say I ruined a real classic, and I will just have to smile and agree with them.

Yeah idiots.. claiming a 2006 Pontiac isn't a Pontiac... So that makes all Pontiacs after 1981 not real Pontiacs?

GM is GM...

I have a GT500 Cobra rear axle going in my 70 :) I would love to laugh at them with that.

I'm sorry anyone can have a run of the mill stock GTO that can't turn, brake and accelerates like a dog. This old "stock" car scene is boring. Its fun to drive for once a decade and huff fumes and enjoy horrible body roll like your riding around on a marshmallow but it gets old real quick.

[andrewb70]

I am a big fan of the Hot Rod Garage show on the Motor Trend YouTube channel, and on the last episode, they did a LS3 swap into an A-body. Good stuff here, except they totally glossed over how they are managing the 4L65E electronics...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UGlYx_Cjjo

Andrew

[mikes2nd]

these shows get a little annoying... all fluff no meat...

Its hard to find detailed info.

[twosaturns]

I am a big fan of the Hot Rod Garage show on the Motor Trend YouTube channel, and on the last episode, they did a LS3 swap into an A-body. Good stuff here, except they totally glossed over how they are managing the 4L65E electronics...


that was a pretty good one, they make it look so easy, with the lift, and the sponsorships...
I can't imagine how long the episodes would be if they covered everything.

[andrewb70]

It's been a while since I have updated this thread or even taken the GTO out for a spin. I've been having a lot of fun with the Cougar, but lately I have been thinking about how I can improve the GTO.

Hooker is about to release a lot of very well engineered components for A-body swaps and it is tempting to redo my swap to make things better. Holley has new mounts, headers, and crossmembers that are engineered to work together and work around the Holley oil pan. Currently my inner tie rods hit the Autokraft pan so it would be nice to fix that.

I would also like to have new stainless headers and a full stainless exhaust, which Hooker will offer. I realize that it seems kind of dumb to redo a car that runs and drives, but I am always trying to make things better.

Another thing that I have been thinking about is swapping over to a 4L80E. Seems kind of nuts, but I have never owned a performance car with an automatic and I would really enjoy seeing what I can do in terms of tuning the transmission. To make the auto trans possible, I would also swap the ECU to a Holley Dominator.

I am open to all inputs....

Andrew

[subtlez28]

You are Nuckin Futs Andrew!

Your GTO is well done already. Like I have said before, just build another. I know, with the Cougar and GTO space is becoming an issue.

I have the solution.

I will bring you my Buick and a 5.3. You can swap it in with a 4L80E and as many Holley parts as you like. You can even add a turbo.

Heck, I'll even let you pay for it so you don't feel like a fee loader...

[boneheadzz]

After I had made my previous posts, I realized that I never posted a picture of the MC as it was finally installed. You can see the new 5/16" rear line along with the adapter that was needed. The rear port for the front brakes worked as is.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo204.jpg


I hope this is ok to post to your build thread. Wasn't sure where to put it...

I'm contemplating swapping my vac boosted MC to this non boosted MC.

I've been doing some autocross events and I want to make the brakes on my 79 TA more reactive to my inputs. Front brakes were upgraded up front to LS1 calipers and 13" rotors. I thought this would help the brakes to work sooner (or be more reactive) with more piston area but it seems roughly the same. Maybe it has more braking ability but the same reaction. They look much nicer than the factory brakes behind the wheel but looks aren't everything.

I don't like the slow reaction of hitting the pedal when approaching a corner and it takes a bit before I get the brakes to react. It seems like the booster is slowing my input down if that seems logical. Plus the factory MC is 1.125" bore.

The car still has the factory drums in the rear for now. I have most of the parts to swap in the LS1 12" rear disc minus some new rotors and pads.

What do you think? Was this a worthwhile swap? Or is there something else that I may be overlooking?
Mike

[ekmxryda]

thinking about how I can improve the GTO.


How much of a rebuild are you thinking?
Chassis upgrades - coilovers and boxing frame would be a good step (I forget current status of frame)
Minitub? Nice to get more rubber contact out back if you are going to be adding more power as well.

Or you could just order up a Roadster Shop chassis and save yourself the trouble! :)

[andrewb70]

So a friend of mine brought this to my attention...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3xBYWGYiVw

Apparently it has been getting some airtime on various car related shows...

Andrew

[csouth]

It's been a while since I have updated this thread or even taken the GTO out for a spin. I've been having a lot of fun with the Cougar, but lately I have been thinking about how I can improve the GTO.

Hooker is about to release a lot of very well engineered components for A-body swaps and it is tempting to redo my swap to make things better. Holley has new mounts, headers, and crossmembers that are engineered to work together and work around the Holley oil pan. Currently my inner tie rods hit the Autokraft pan so it would be nice to fix that.

I would also like to have new stainless headers and a full stainless exhaust, which Hooker will offer. I realize that it seems kind of dumb to redo a car that runs and drives, but I am always trying to make things better.

Another thing that I have been thinking about is swapping over to a 4L80E. Seems kind of nuts, but I have never owned a performance car with an automatic and I would really enjoy seeing what I can do in terms of tuning the transmission. To make the auto trans possible, I would also swap the ECU to a Holley Dominator.

I am open to all inputs....

Andrew

I can totally understand you wanting to make improvements and push the car to new heights. I guess I'd wonder how you could go from manual to auto? I have still to get my car on the road, but when my drivetrain was stolen I saw this as an opportunity to get what I wanted in the first place being manual. I guess the ability to fine tune the 4L80E will make up for that. I'm sure you know this, just a reminder that the transmissions response will only be a result of the internals. I've always looked at what you've done with your GTO as an A Body inspiration. I see it as something the average guy can accomplish by building a great performing classic muscle car without breaking the bank.

I'll be watching.

[raustinss]

I don't know about the automatic but I'm all for you switching stuff up ...
A because that means I will know how well stuff fits without buying it myself lol
B because if something doesn't fit to "my" liking but does to yours I could buy your old stuff lol

[andrewb70]

I can totally understand you wanting to make improvements and push the car to new heights. I guess I'd wonder how you could go from manual to auto? I have still to get my car on the road, but when my drivetrain was stolen I saw this as an opportunity to get what I wanted in the first place being manual. I guess the ability to fine tune the 4L80E will make up for that. I'm sure you know this, just a reminder that the transmissions response will only be a result of the internals. I've always looked at what you've done with your GTO as an A Body inspiration. I see it as something the average guy can accomplish by building a great performing classic muscle car without breaking the bank.

I'll be watching.

Chris,

Thanks for the compliment! If I ever go forward with something different in the GTO, the 4L80e will have a turbo 5.3L in front of it :-)

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Maybe a LT4 with a 4L80e?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOGUeYcMT7c

Andrew

[subtlez28]

Direct injection seems ideal for TURBO!

Dibs on your 6.2!

[andrewb70]

Someone made a post recently on the Pontiac forum lamenting the lack of young people at car shows and it inspired me to write this...

http://www.timelessmuscle.com/editorials/andrew-borodin-the-difference-between-waxers-and-greasers/

Andrew

[mdes0]

Just read this whole thread today, thank you for all this great information! Any updates on the GTO?

[1965gp]

That was a great write up (timeless). And that's coming from a waxer! I work on my cars but don't drive them near as hard as most on this board. Still, I think we should do everything we can to help promote the hobby in a fashion. It's amazing what kids can build today.

[andrewb70]

Just read this whole thread today, thank you for all this great information! Any updates on the GTO?

Thanks for the kind words. Unfortunately, the GTO is tucked away in my garage under a cover and probably won't see the light of day for another 2-3 years. Life circumstances and my current residence do not allow for two projects at the same time. I've been driving the Cougar on a daily basis and will probably take it to Holley LSFest this year, for the third time.


That was a great write up (timeless). And that's coming from a waxer! I work on my cars but don't drive them near as hard as most on this board. Still, I think we should do everything we can to help promote the hobby in a fashion. It's amazing what kids can build today.

The "kids" are definitely building a lot of interesting stuff! The GTO will eventually get a driveline upgrade at some point.

Andrew

[Later-A-body]

Someone made a post recently on the Pontiac forum lamenting the lack of young people at car shows and it inspired me to write this...

http://www.timelessmuscle.com/editorials/andrew-borodin-the-difference-between-waxers-and-greasers/

Andrew

Bravo Andrew. Well said (written).

[andrewb70]

Bravo Andrew. Well said (written).

Thanks!

Andrew

[andrewb70]

Bumping this thread up, for no other reason than it has been over 10 years since I did this LS swap.

Andrew

[csouth]

Bumping this thread up, for no other reason than it has been over 10 years since I did this LS swap.

Andrew

:woot:

[trapin]

Gotta bring that Goat back into the world now. Great write-up in Timeless Magazine too. I'm getting all caught up my friend. ;-)

[Steve Chryssos]

Andrew,
This past weekend, I was telling the story about how, back in 2002, I dropped $1100 per wheel for a set of forged wheels thinking that NO ONE would dare spend that much or consider forged wheels. With that strategy, my car would be totally unique! :screwy: Sho 'nuff... the month before my car is on the cover of Popular Hot Rodding -- May 2003 -- some BIG JERK has the exact same wheels on his GTO in the April 2003 issue! :moon: Thanks a bunch! :slap: (and so a lasting friendship was born)

Just think how many Forgelines have been sold since then. ..and for more money.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2018/11/0304PHR_GTO01zoom-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2018/11/May2003PopularHotRoddingMagazineEastCoas-1.jpg

[David Sloan]

The benefits of being a bachelor and living alone include being able to have a bunch of car parts in the living room and not hearing "THE DISPOSAL IS CLOGGED!!!" LOL

Besides the engine swap I am doing some suspension mods. I already have some coilovers in the front. The springs in the front are 550 lb/inch. They were marginal with the big block. I think they will work very well with the L92, so for now I am not messing with them. In the rear I currently have some springs that I got way back in the day, from HO Racing.

Who remembers them? If you do, your old!!!

I wanted the ability to adjust the ride height in the rear and more importantly have the ability to properly set the corner weights once the car is done. There are all kinds of solutions to accomplish this, I chose a very nice product from Budzter:

https://www.budzter.com/index.html

Not cheap, but the quality is outstanding and it is a true bolt on. No hacking of the rear is required and its fully reversible. I like that. The spring is 9.5" tall, 175 lb/inch from the Coleman Racing catalog.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo27.jpg

Andrew

Do you by chance remember the part number for these springs ? My search is not giving me anything with a pigtail
Thank you sir!

[andrewb70]

David,

I sure don't. Maybe give Coleman a call? I'm also sure that other circle track vendors may have something.

Andrew

[David Sloan]

David,

I sure don't. Maybe give Coleman a call? I'm also sure that other circle track vendors may have something.

Andrew

Thanks
I have been looking at a couple others (allstar , Coleman , speedway) guess i will give the a call !
I got the rest of the parts to build the screw jacks,
Thanks for your help!

[Interceptor5588]

Thanks Kevin!

Sometimes one has to wonder, "WHAT THE F**K WERE THESE PEOPLE THINKING?" GMPP did a very nice job coming out with a harness and ECU combo that was priced right, fits well, and is easy to hook up. Then you realize that the engineer who speced the gas pedal has never turned a wrench in his (or her) life. The pedal that they send with the harness kit is on the right:

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo42.jpg

It is HUGE and looks like it belongs on a dump truck. I can't imagine that it would fit into any car or streetrod etc...

Thanks for Jeff Schwartz, I got an alternative. The pedal on the left is from a 2007 Monte Carlo SS.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo43.jpg

Nice and tidy, with an easy to mount flange. I was able to position it exactly where the old gas pedal was. I even used one of the original holes, drilled an extra hole, and was done.

https://www.pro-touring.com/~andrewb/gtov2/photo44.jpg

So with some luck, I hope to drop the engine in this weekend.

Andrew

Does this pedal pin out the same as a Corvette pedal, or truck, or van? Whats the difference between this and a Corvette pedal?

[andrewb70]

Does this pedal pin out the same as a Corvette pedal, or truck, or van? Whats the difference between this and a Corvette pedal?

The GM harness and ECU kit case with the CTSV1 pedal and it pins out the same as Impala SS and the C6 Corvette pedal (maybe others, but I do not know for sure).

The difference between the Impala SS and the C6 pedal is in the way that it mounts.

Here is the Impala SS pedal:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=10049960&cc=1443254&jsn=972

Here is the C6 pedal:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=10049936&cc=1442776&jsn=1032

You can see how the mounts are similar but not identical. Both my buddy Tom and I used the Impala SS pedal and the attachment to the firewall works out such that you can use one of the existing holes on the firewall that was used to attach the original pedal. Then you simply add another hole and you're done.

Also, do not modify the Impala SS pedal in any way. I modified one when using it in my Cougar (I removed the actual pedal pad and installed the original Cougar pedal pad). By removing the pedal pad and the spring that is there, it really changed the pedal feel for the worse. I have since replaced the Cougar pedal with an unmodified Impala pedal and the driving experience is much better.

Hope this helps.

Andrew

[Interceptor5588]

So if I spec out a custom harness to use a Corvette pedal, the Impala SS pedal will plug in and go? Their pedal options are truck, Corvette, Express van, and G8.

Thanks again for the wealth of detailed info in your build threads. It's become a bit of a go-to for an LS GTO build.

[andrewb70]

So if I spec out a custom harness to use a Corvette pedal, the Impala SS pedal will plug in and go? Their pedal options are truck, Corvette, Express van, and G8.

Thanks again for the wealth of detailed info in your build threads. It's become a bit of a go-to for an LS GTO build.

Why aren't you going with something like the Holley Terminator X Max?

Andrew

[Interceptor5588]

First of all the $1500 price tag for one with trans control.

Secondly I've installed 2 Sniper setups brand new, both failed and left me on the side of the road. One had an injector stuck wide open, that washed off the cylinder walls in my 400 on 2 holes. The second one locked itself onto an AFR of 34:1 or something and would barely run and washed all the cylinder walls. Both were replaced under warranty, but at this point I have reduced faith in the aftermarket.

OEM stuff seems to be more tried and true, in my experience. However, it does take a lot of research to get the base combo right if you dont start with a complete takeout.

[andrewb70]

Fair enough. The TerminatorX Max does have both DBW and trans control. I've installed one and tuned a few without any issues. I like the ability to tune easily myself.

Andrew