Guess what? Fire melts aluminum!!!

[David Pozzi]

I recently saw a tractor fire on our farm. It was at night, so the fire really was spectacular. It pointed out a few things I'd like to convey to the forum members.

1. A hand held fire extinguisher like you'd carry in your car is good for about 10 seconds of spraying. That's not long!!!

2. If you put the fire out right away, you are LUCKY! if there is much heat built up in the area or fuel is burning, it isn't going to go out that easily. A few years ago we had Chevy pickup truck burn, they shot 2 fire extinguishers on it but it didn't go out until the Fire Dept got there and hit it with water.

3. The tractor had a plastic fuel tank probably 30 gallons of diesel, it BURST when it got hot enough! Then the fire really got going. I think a steel tank would not have popped like that.

4. Yes this fire was very very hot due to the fuel tank bursting, but after looking at it, I noticed all the aluminum parts that melted. It started me thinking about my 69 Camaro race car. Any aluminum cover panels on the firewall will be replaced with steel sheet and steel rivets. The heater core hole has a flat piece of aluminum over it by a previous owner. This didn't bother me before seeing the fire, but now it scares me a lot! Aluminum can melt at 1100 degrees, Steel at 2300 degrees. The tractor had the alternator, fuel pump, timing cover, oil filter mount, and a bunch of other stuff just melt away and fall off. All the steel parts were still there, even the thin steel on the hood. Don't even get me started about plastic, there was a huge amount of plastic on that thing that just melted and burned up! The radiator tanks, dash, fenders, valve cover, engine side covers, canopy and loads of other parts were all plastic. This fire was probably started by an electrical short, there were fat bundles of wires running to the fuse panel and computer, the tractor is worth around $28,000.

If you race your car, look it over for aluminum and plastic in the firewall and put as much steel there as possible. I'm also going to look for a fireproof shifter boot.
Here's a photo I took of the tractor on fire. I took it with my camera phone so it's not high res.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[TonyL]

Crazy! Sorry about your tractor!


One of the most surreal things I ever saw was a tractor driving alone through a field on fire right off of the 505 one morning. It was just putting along, no one around burning like crazy!

[68Formula]

When I was a kid, we had cast iron pie makers. A few years ago I bought aluminum ones to use. Stuck one in the hot coals, pulled it out... melted to a useless state.

Was a little more careful with the second.

Tossed the first one in the fire after it melted and there was no trace of it after we put the fire out.

[silver69camaro]

Amazing. Any idea what caused it? Sorry to hear about that.

[Damn True]

Good thing it didn't go delta.

[bucks69]

Man was that a 6400 series? I seen a 9860 STS Combine burn this past fall, There was not anything left of it, it has a 150-175 gallon diesel tank on it (I think) and it was full when it caught fire. That was a big fire. Did a hydraulic line burst and spray exhaust?

[megaladon6]

sorry man, that sucks. but at least it wasn't the car.
it reminds me of my 86 jetta that went up in a fire. even part of the aluminum head started to melt!!! needles to say the alternator, injection unit, and every other piece of aluminum were completely slagged. the fire got so hot that there was a literal fire tornado in the cabin and the roof started to collapse. the sunroof (aluminum) did melt. the fire dept couldn't put it out with water, foam or powder.

[MrQuick]

Man that sucks.

Its a good rule of thumb that a hand held is only to get you enough time to exit a vehicle.

You sure there wasn't any magnesium in there? HOT!!

Bright side, you found an easy way to remove a worn tire off of a tractor wheel.

[CarlC]

That'll buff out.

[68BNUT]

That'll buff out.

oh crap you made me swallow my gum!!

[David Pozzi]

Man was that a 6400 series? I seen a 9860 STS Combine burn this past fall, There was not anything left of it, it has a 150-175 gallon diesel tank on it (I think) and it was full when it caught fire. That was a big fire. Did a hydraulic line burst and spray exhaust?

Yes it's a John Deere 6400 MFWD. It was our favorite tractor, it did almost every job well.

My main point is, how much sooner aluminum is going to disappear and how that might affect a car we might build. I'm going over our 69 road racer to replace any aluminum on the firewall with steel. All the steel is still there on this tractor. The fire dept peeled off the rear tires to douse them with water so they wouldn't re-ignite. They were quite happy this happened as they had 5 extra trainees at the station and this gave them something to train on. I told the chief we were "happy" to help! :-(
David

[Jim Nilsen]

Sorry to hear about the fire Dave. That is some blaze you had going.

The other thing about aluminum when it burns is the toxic fumes it puts off. Just another reason to add to the list.

Hope you get another soon, sounds like one you relied on.

[Paul_J]

Good point about the aluminum between you and a source of fire. You can find examples everywhere you look and a lot of rule books allow this. I've made that mistake too many times to ever point a finger. I find it amazing that you looked at this loss and found some important lessons there. Imagine the costs if you learned nothing. I attended engine fire 101. I have a diploma in the garage in pieces to prove it!

[GTOnate]

That'll buff out.
Hey I got some stuff I need you to buff out for me lol

[CarlC]

You can find examples everywhere you look and a lot of rule books allow this. I've made that mistake too many times to ever point a finger. I find it amazing that you looked at this loss and found some important lessons there. Imagine the costs if you learned nothing.

Agreed. Make failure a leaning experience, especially the heartache others have gone through. It makes the learning curve much faster, easier, safer, and less expensive.

[79TA01]

That is pretty crazy. I help run my dad's small trucking company and just yesterday, one of our tractor trailers caught on fire coming back from LA. The driver saw smoke in the rearview mirror pulled over and opened the hood and bam! flames shot out of the hood and the whole thing was on fire underneath. The whole front part of the tractor and cab burned up so fast the driver didnt even have a chance to get back inside to get anything. But at least he got out in time and was safe. The whole front of the cab just melted away pretty fast he said. Really lucky the fuel tanks didnt blow as they were full with about 200 gallons of $4.15/gal diesel. :0

We're still unsure what happened, could have been an electrical short or a line bursting/leaking. The worst part is that we only had 2 pymts left on it and owed $2600 on it. :( Luckily the trailer and load it was carrying was not damaged, as well as 4 of the 6 brand new tires we had just put on it last week for about $3k. So at least some things may be salvagable.

[MarkM66]

3. Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion (BLEVE)

[Damn True]

Yes it's a John Deere 6400 MFWD. It was our favorite tractor, it did almost every job well.

My main point is, how much sooner aluminum is going to disappear and how that might affect a car we might build. I'm going over our 69 road racer to replace any aluminum on the firewall with steel. All the steel is still there on this tractor. The fire dept peeled off the rear tires to douse them with water so they wouldn't re-ignite. They were quite happy this happened as they had 5 extra trainees at the station and this gave them something to train on. I told the chief we were "happy" to help! :-(
David

What? What? WHAT?

You've started working on the '69?

Do tell David, do tell.

[Damn True]

That is pretty crazy. I help run my dad's small trucking company and just yesterday, one of our tractor trailers caught on fire coming back from LA. The driver saw smoke in the rearview mirror pulled over and opened the hood and bam! flames shot out of the hood and the whole thing was on fire underneath. The whole front part of the tractor and cab burned up so fast the driver didnt even have a chance to get back inside to get anything. But at least he got out in time and was safe. The whole front of the cab just melted away pretty fast he said. Really lucky the fuel tanks didnt blow as they were full with about 200 gallons of $4.15/gal diesel. :0

We're still unsure what happened, could have been an electrical short or a line bursting/leaking. The worst part is that we only had 2 pymts left on it and owed $2600 on it. :( Luckily the trailer and load it was carrying was not damaged, as well as 4 of the 6 brand new tires we had just put on it last week for about $3k. So at least some things may be salvagable.

Geez I guess he never saw that episode of CHiP's.

[chicane67]

Yes it's a John Deere 6400 MFWD. It was our favorite tractor, it did almost every job well.

My main point is, how much sooner aluminum is going to disappear and how that might affect a car we might build. I'm going over our 69 road racer to replace any aluminum on the firewall with steel.

That is probably why most sanctioning bodies require that... "All non-production firewalls shall be constructed of metal with a minimum of 0.060", and 0.095" being the recommendation."

David payed the price, so that we may all learn from the experience. It just sucks that you had to loose a GOOD tool to change your ideas about safety.

[David Pozzi]

What? What? WHAT?

You've started working on the '69?

Do tell David, do tell.

Mostly Mary is working on it, so she can DRIVE it! :hand:
The sub is out and re-welded and painted, as is most of the front suspension. I set up the circle track "hidden" front spring adjusters and milled notches in the edge threaded adjuster ring so we can stick a tool through a hole in the frame and spin the ring for height adjustment.

A solid lifter 302 isn't going to be great for autocross but it'll be fun trying. Open track should be fun with it. Mary's going to have to learn to rev an engine!
David

[Charley Lillard]

What caused the tractor fire ?

[BMF Machine]

I got an ultimate set of TooLs, I can fix it! :bananna2:

Sorry, trying to get ya to smile. That thing is crispy!

[David Pozzi]

What caused the tractor fire ?

Charley,
The tractor was being used about 1.5 hours before it caught fire. It has a ton of wires on it with a car-like fuse panel right beside the driver's seat under the control levers. A lot of relays are in that panel and a car like computer is under the floor there. The computer is there to run the hydraulic control system. Some pretty large power cables run to relays, etc. The harness runs from the battery up ahead of the radiator, back to the starter on the rear right side of the engine, then on to the fuse and relay panel by the seat. There are also some power connectors near the starter for jump starting the engine if the battery is dead. I've been told those connections started smoldering on a similar tractor in the area. The guy tightened the connectors and didn't have any more problems.

The engine is mounted on rubber mounts like a car engine, very unusual for a tractor, but this one is made in Germany, I'm told many tractors there are used like cars and driven from village to the field or they haul produce from farm to village market. They all have pretty good headlights and turn signals and horn.

I'm pretty sure the fire started on the RH side along this harness, probably near the starter or just to the rear of the starter. Probably it chafed through and started the harness on fire. When I got there I saw pieces of the harness wrap falling on the ground and burning/melting. This eventually spread over to under the fuel tank and got IT going, then POOF! When I first got there, the fire was under the floor, - driver's feet area, and was moving up into the instrument cluster.

I think car type corrigated sleeving of the harness is not enough protection for a vibrating tractor.

BTW, Today I bought a 40 BC extinguisher at Costco for $25.00. It has a metal valve, which is important, our fire extiguishers are serviced once a year by the vendor, and they don't want to recharge plastic valved extinguishers, BUT they charge a lot for them! Like double what we can buy them for in the average store.

Anyway, I'm upgrading the extinguisher in my race car trailer from the normal handheld size 10BC, to 40BC. Which is 4 times more effective!!! I already have 2 60BC extinguishers in my shop, and a 40BC in my house and garage.

I only wish I'd grabbed them when I got the phone call that this tractor was on fire! I thought the fire dept would be there 5 minutes after I was, but they took more like 15 minutes. If we had grabbed a long enough hose, it would have really helped too, we could have held the fire down enough to prevent the fuel tank from going.

I figure my house is about 10 miles from the fire dept, it takes at least a couple of minutes for the call to be placed and the truck to be dispatched and start moving, so maybe 15 minutes or more from phone call to arrival. That gives me quite a bit of time to fight a fire by myself, and I should have enough extinguishers or hoses on hand to keep me occupied for that amount of time. It was terrible just standing there watching the tractor burn while listening to the sirens coming for several minutes before they finally got there, it felt like HOURS!
David

[David Pozzi]

Another story.
A friend has a Can-Am Lola T-163, engine is a big block 495 aluminum block and heads fuel injected.

The car is in the Featherlight enclosed trailer and they decide to stop and eat. They crack open the side door of the trailer to check the car before going inside. Apparently something fell on the winch or winch battery and shorted it out! The trailer was full of smoke! They then had to decide, close the door and hope it didn't get worse, or open the door allowing fresh air to enter and empty the trailer as fast as possible!

They decided to empty the trailer, - FAST!

The roller tool box was behind the race car strapped to the wall, that had to be removed before the race car could be rolled out. The front of the trailer had a nice setup of plastic bin-boxes full of spares. I think the fire got to the plastic boxes and the fresh air that entered helped that to burn.

Anyway, the car got out in time, and the trailer was eventually repaired by the insurance company but it took almost a year to get done.

One thing they said they might have tried instead. They had a bottle of compressed CO2 for the tires strapped to the wall just inside the side door, they could have opened that and closed the door and hoped the fire dept got there in time to save the car.
David

[ITLBTU]

Dave,
I thought you were a Bay area city slicker! What do you farm? I'm in the Central Valley. I farm Almonds. :twothumbs My tractor is simple... a couple lights, and a few gauges.

[David Pozzi]

Mostly Lettuce of various kinds in the Salinas Valley.
The newer tractors have loads of plastic just like the cars do.
David

[martZ]

Another story.
One thing they said they might have tried instead. They had a bottle of compressed CO2 for the tires strapped to the wall just inside the side door, they could have opened that and closed the door and hoped the fire dept got there in time to save the car.
David

CO2 works great at displacing oxygen, especially in an enclosed environment. I keep a 5lb CO2 Class BC fire extinguisher in my El Camino, less messy than the dry powder. Another option would be an AFFF (foam) extinguisher. I'm not sure of the price but they are very effective on combustable liquids. We carry class B foam on our brush truck specifically for vehicle fires.

[rocketman]

Us titanium it has a higher heat rating and is lighter, my drag car has the firewall made out of it. its 024 wall

[David Pozzi]

Wow! Ti melts at over 3000 degrees! Neat!

[LONE*STAR]

I worked in the fire protection industry for about 6 years before moving on to Vech recovery...I have to agree that for the price C02 or one of the Halon type chems are the best if you like what your putting out... the stuff just evaporates after a few seconds and all you have left is the damage. The way that it puts out the fire is quicker than power or water... Smothering rather than cooling.:drive2:

[greygoose006]

good information and sad news at the same time.
im not sure how to take this.
well sorry about the tractor.