How much HP is enough??????

[John McIntire]

We all know the answer that there really never is enough horsepower, but for a nice all around driveable car, how much is enough? 350? 400? 450? I've been thinking about this, maybe just building a plane jane stock looking car with a few "upgrades" to bring it up to par, such as better brakes and a little more power.
So basically the question is, how much power is enough for the street in a real world situation?

[nekkidhillbilly]

350 rwhp

which hp is just a number

350 rw tq would be more of my thing

[bigvegan]

What do you mean by real world?

A significant number of the V-8 musclecars of days gone by left the factory with less than 250hp. (The base 1975 Corvette put out 165hp, the upgraded engine had 210.)

Most stock 4 cylinder 100-120hp econoboxes these days can go 100-110mph no problem.

1 hp per cubic inch used to be the standard to strive for, now it seems to be 100hp per liter or more.

It all depends on your goals, but to have a classic that you won't be embarrassed in, 250rwhp is probably enough to get you started.

More is always better though.

[Boyd]

I really don't have an informed answer for you, but I like the question. It's sort of in the same vein as the "what is the best wheel size for all-around performance" question. (Which I think most of us agreed was 17".)

IMO, I'd say between 350-400 rwhp/tq is plenty for "everyday performance".

[70bird]

A better question may be: How much is too much?

I personaly don't know the answer to that one, but I can tell you I have had a couple motors with over 450 at the crank and they felt real fast at first, but later left me looking for more!

Hmmm, I just realized I may have a problem.

Seriously, good all around street motor, 450 lbs/ft @ 3500 will feel real good and have nice street manners.
JMHO

[pist0lpete]

I think for a street car 500 rwhp is reaching the limit of what is truly useable on the street. Of course there are different variations of this. A Kenne Bell blower on an LS1 that makes 450 ft/lbs rwtq at 2300 rpms with a max of 540 ft/lbs rwtq is going to be much less streetable than a naturally aspirated small block 406 that has to rev to 6000 to make 500 ft/lbs rwtq. Also the same power is different on cars that weigh differently and have room for more or less tire. I think 500 is a workable number though. That doesn't mean more isn't alot of fun...

[RSX302]

I agree with all the answers. You can get in a lot of trouble with just a few hundred horsepower let alone 500. It's all about the right foot, how often it's used and where you use it. Mr Police man can care less about horsepower. Weather it's 10mph over the speed limit or 110. Ticket or Jail Time...

On the 'I'll get away with it on the street' side of the coin, I personally feel 500hp-500ft/lbs flywheel for a street car is about the most you want to go with. Provided you've done your homework and spent the money to ensure your stuff holds together your tires will hate you. Cus your gonna use it!

I had 400 rwft/lbs in a 93 Mustang with pretty good hookup and it did 0 to the speed limit fast enough for a cop to notice and chase me down. (no tire spin either) Boy was he pissed. (I didn’t get a ticket:woot:) I think he was waiting for me to fess up to it…:dunno:

[Larry Callahan]

I agree with all the answers. You can get in a lot of trouble with just a few hundred horsepower let alone 500. It's all about the right foot, how often it's used and where you use it. Mr Police man can care less about horsepower. Weather it's 10mph over the speed limit or 110. Ticket or Jail Time...

On the 'I'll get away with it on the street' side of the coin, I personally feel 500hp-500ft/lbs flywheel for a street car is about the most you want to go with. Provided you've done your homework and spent the money to ensure your stuff holds together your tires will hate you. Cus your gonna use it!

I had 400 rwft/lbs in a 93 Mustang with pretty good hookup and it did 0 to the speed limit fast enough for a cop to notice and chase me down. (no tire spin either) Boy was he pissed. (I didn’t get a ticket:woot:) I think he was waiting for me to fess up to it…:dunno:

Uh, Ron... I have been in your car. It has enough HP to scare the %^&%$ out of me. LOL!

[cheapthrillz]

I really dont think that this question is appropriate. When you have 200hp in a sloppy car versus 500hp in a sloppy car, then it is still a sloppy car! I think we can all agree that hp is not the main objective of pro-touring. A 250hp car can outrun a 500hp if it is set up correctly, granted you aren't drag racing, which still this idea could apply.

My opinion is just that having a car that handles and rides very well is much more fun to drive than a car that has a ton of body roll or just a plain sloppy suspension.

But then again, finding that happy medium between the suspension and the power of the car is the main objective. I had a '89 non-turbo Supra that had way less hp than my '86 camaro, but the Supra was so much more fun to drive because it handled so well.

If I had to put a number on it though, using street tires, I would say about 450 hp would be a great number for the street.

[RSX302]

Yea..and I feel it's to much for the street...

By the way...its got more horsepower now then when you rode in it last.. Too Damn Fun!!!

[RSX302]

You need another ride Larry!

[Larry Callahan]

I do and this I need to bring my video camera.

[cheapthrillz]

I think the more appropriate question to ask maybe is:

What is a good power to weight ratio?

For all intensive purposes, i think that this is the question that should be discussed.

[Boesch]

Take a Miata out to a track day and you'll have a ton of fun. There's not much HP there but the weight and handling sure make it fun. Take a new C6 corvette to the track day...also a lot of fun. If you know how to drive the corvette, it will run circles around the miata.

Personally I'd say it really depends on your budget. If you can hit 500HP then you'll have a car that definitely feels fast. Can you use more...sure, just make sure you don't skimp on the suspension and brakes though so you can take advantage of all your HP.

[monza]

545 rwhp is a good amount, yes even enough.

[Nine Ball]

I prefer my daily drivers to have about ~500 rwhp. Anything beyond that just becomes more effort to manage. Hard runs through the gears usually just end up as hazed tires beyond that, through the first three gears.

Drivability has nothing to do with HP however. My 550 rwhp GTO and the 670 rwhp Viper drive like they are 100% stock. That is the benefit of forced induction, you don't get the quirky manners of an overcammed engine with loud exhaust. I prefer them on the quiet side, without drivability issues, and fast. Loud SLOW cars annoy me.

Tony

[rohrt]

Your driving a 72 Chevelle so I would agree with the 450 HP at the crank would fit your criteria of an all around fun driver.

One thing to keep in mind is that getting 450hp from a sb350 is different then the 450hp from a 454. Lots of torque is what is fun and needed on the street.

My brothers 69 GTO conv has a 462 pont with 450+hp and 500ft-lb of torque and even with the 9" slicks has no problem burning the hides off the tires through first and second. Runs mid 12 with out NOS.

[fiorano]

this debate will never have an answer as opinion and ability limit the thinking.
usable, raceable, practical...
Can-Am had regularly 1100hp (and lord knows how much torque) porsche 917 (flat 12)
the current Audi r10 LMP has 800ft.lbs of torque at 1000rpm
crazy but these seem to go well

trans-am racers (GT1) run around 500-600 hp i think and are a hand ful and great racing when they were around.

street cars can get you in trouble with 100 hp
Touring car racers are avg. at 275-300 hp and 250ftlbs torque
Nascar is pushing on shorttracks 850hp and 450 ft lbs of torque
champ cars same thing (turbo cosworth V8 XFE!)

but classic racers and tough street car adn great fun always has at the 450 hp/torque numbers to 650 max anything more is not really a drivable car but a salt flat racer or 1/4 miler..

how fast do you want ot go? and do you plan on turning?
for every dime you put in the engine put 1/2 as muchinto braking-
and about as much into suspension.

[rohrt]

To me the debate is fun. Its about finding the gray area between a car being to slow to show off and to fast to meet the nice all around driveable car.
I don't think I would have as much fun just crusing the ave in a 700hp big block if I didn't have any vacume for the brakes and the car kept overheating.

[Damn True]

Seriously, the Audi R-8 that won Lemans multiple times had 520hp (I dunno what the R-10 has). That car runs large x huge gummy slicks, has tons of downforce and a vastly more sophisticated suspension than any of our cars AND none of us has the skills of a Tom Kristensen.

[67 caprice]

There is nothing like cruising in a 700+ HP street car. Or even a 1000 HP car for that matter. As long as it is truly drivable. you should be able to drive all day long at 70+ on the interstate. Or sit in traffic and not over heat. The max HP to me is when your car is no longer streetable.
With a lot of HP you need to learn how to drive your car. When you approach a stop sign you don't press the brake to the floor and come to a screaming stop. Same goes when you leave the stop sign. You don't floor the gas pedal and leave a blazing smoke screen.:seizure: You need to learn the limits of your car, the brakes and the gas.
Down shifting into second at 50 mph and having traction, is a neck snapping thrill that every one should experience.

[Pagani]

Power is nothing whitout control
Great example of to much power
http://pollymotorsport.no/index.php?mapping=41

[el-camino]

i think around 350rwhp are enough.
i was wondering all the time when i´m see the guys with overloaded engines.
why ?
for cruising to the super-market ?
for transporting the car on a trailer ?
every year some turns on the race track ?

some guys are have problems to handle a 150hp car, why also build a 600hp engine ?
penis enlargement ?
too much money ?

i´m happy with my tired ponys under the hood.
but this ponys can run more than enough, free and without limits.

some bodybuilders have so much muscles that they can hardly walk:hammer:

[rocketman]

On the street 500hp is a nice #. Personally I like over kill street cars. 700-1000 is impressive on the street. No that said if I ever finish it my new car will have a blown 585 around 1500 hp or so

[el-camino]

aah, you are a muscle-man:enguard:

[6'9"Witha69]

The real answer is, whatever the tires can handle. 300 hp tire, 300 hp engine. Get the idea?

[70bird]

Power is nothing whitout control
Great example of to much power
http://pollymotorsport.no/index.php?mapping=41

I'd say that pretty well sums it up LOL

[RSX302]

Power is nothing whitout control
Great example of to much power
http://pollymotorsport.no/index.php?mapping=41

That's freakin hysterical:hah: :hah: :hah: :hah: :hah:

[John McIntire]

lots of great ideas and opinions here. I was really just looking for a number, and it appears that 500 is the magical mark.
I was just thinking of power for an everyday driver, that you could drive anywhere and everywhere. This topic could go on and on about big blocks, small blocks, NA or power adder , but what I was really looking for was everyones take on what you thought was streetable.

[jeff s]

I drove over 8000 miles on the street in 2007 with 1003 hp.
Entire HRPT, Chicago to Atlanta for Year One Exp. Chicago to St Paul for CC Nats. Averaged 23 mpg too.

[rickk]

I drove over 8000 miles on the street in 2007 with 1003 hp.
Entire HRPT, Chicago to Atlanta for Year One Exp. Chicago to St paul for CC Nats. Averaged 23 mpg too.


jeff s said it best.
rickk

[yell01]

I think the 500-700hp range is enough. I have a buddy with a 57 Chevy with 1200 hp who never uses near that much. He also has problems all the time. He'll never track it so it seems like a waste. 600-700hp in that car would be plenty. He started a 69 Camaro that's sitting now and he wants 1500hp in it. I think that's just ridiculous and WAAAAY overkill. In my 69 Camaro with an LS2 it should be in the 500 range and I know based on my stock 07 Vette it will be more than enough.

[monza]

This woman had to much hp...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNLpZdDz-1k&feature=related

(sure lots of you have seen it... some wife in a Cobra)

[Vegas69]

You entire car must be set up and built to handle the horsepower under the hood. Reliability is under rated. I knew I was going to run a tko 600 so I went with 593 horsepower and 587 lbft. I also knew 275's weren't going to come close to handling the power so I mini tubbed, sub frame connectors, roll bar, moser 12 bolt etc...

[rocketman]

This woman had to much hp...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNLpZdDz-1k&feature=related

(sure lots of you have seen it... some wife in a Cobra)


Note to every guy here if you haven't trained your wife to drive, don't let her..... D'UH.... That guy as no one to blame but himself that his car got killed for no reason.. what an IDIOT...

[70bird]

This woman had to much hp...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNLpZdDz-1k&feature=related

(sure lots of you have seen it... some wife in a Cobra)

Yeah, but can she cook too?

[formula98]

Note to every guy here if you haven't trained your wife to drive, don't let her..... D'UH.... That guy as no one to blame but himself that his car got killed for no reason.. what an IDIOT...

He was smart enough not to be in the car! Dumb enough to let her drive! He's lucky she didn't kill anyone or herself!

[Rolling_Thunder]

have a 69 Road runner in the shop and it is cranking 416rwhp and 442rwtq - it is a pleasure to drive - nothing wild... shifting the 4-speed does get old though...

I would say it depends on where you live really... my friend's father lives in Lake Tahoe - drive the 395 to Reno all the time in his Hennessey Viper - so 1000+hp is good

Here in Los angeles I think anything more than 500hp is useless

[Cruiser]

It was summed up many years ago...

"If you can leave black marks on a straight from the time you exit a corner till the time you brake for the next turn.......
Then, you have enough horsepower."
-Mark Donahue




...

[Nine Ball]

Power is nothing whitout control
Great example of to much power
http://pollymotorsport.no/index.php?mapping=41

Cool vid. That was what I was doing at the Year One event on the front straight of Road Atlanta. My C6 was only making ~550 rwhp and could haze the tires at speed. Fun stuff!

[fiorano]

Actually lets think this harder

not total power but Power to Wieght ratio
a 1000 lb car can really smack around a 3500 car if both have 450 HP
so at 3400lb and 500 hp (less than A NASCAR craftsman truck) a 350 hp car at 1500 lbs would demolish it.

[jaybee]

I agree with those who have said it's about power to weight ratio. Light cars have been kicking around heavier cars with more power for a long time...as long as the power to weight ratio and rubber on the road are there.

[got_hp?]

Actually lets think this harder

not total power but Power to Wieght ratio
a 1000 lb car can really smack around a 3500 car if both have 450 HP
so at 3400lb and 500 hp (less than A NASCAR craftsman truck) a 350 hp car at 1500 lbs would demolish it.


yeah, that was going to be my comment.............there is no magical hp number..........just a power-to-weight number (and even that number would be adjustable based on the drivers skill/comfort)

350 hp might feel great in a 3200lb vette........but in a 4400lb bigger car, thats barely enough to get it moving decently.

we really should be looking at power-to-weight.


just for example.....the Caparo T1 has 1000hp-per-tonne (freaking insane, basically a street legal F1 car)......with only a 575hp engine. 575 might seem fine in a muscle car, but in this thing it is downright deadly.
0-100 = 5 seconds (traction limited im sure) and corners at 3g's!!
http://www.supercars.net/cars/3376.html

the top gear video of them testing the T1 is entertaining.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=top+gear+caparo+t1&hl=en&sitesearch=
obviously it needs a bit more fine-tuning before us mere mortals can handle it

[megaladon6]

ok so what's a good power to weight ratio that we can actually attain with our american steel cars?

[RSX302]

This woman had to much hp...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNLpZdDz-1k&feature=related

(sure lots of you have seen it... some wife in a Cobra)

:crying: :crying: :crying:
By the looks of it at the start, I would have told her to get the F$%K out of the car. Simply Amazing! More money then brains I guess....

[RSX302]

ok so what's a good power to weight ratio that we can actually attain with our american steel cars?

I agree...that would be a better ratio to go by.....I'm thinking around 6 to 7:1 hp/weight. (with driver)

[steemin]

Another factor imho is what kind of power are you used to...
I have gradually climbed the ladder of power over the years.
I used to think that 300RWHP was a lot.
Then you get comfortable with that and want more.:naughty:
Scott

[6'9"Witha69]

I will say that hp is more streetable now than it was a decade ago. When I built my 383 10 years ago with a retrofit Hyd roller poeple said 500+ HP and almost 550 ft/lbs was too much. Now cars come from the factory getting better MPG than I do and running similar or better HP figures. So part of the answer is what type of engine are you running? An SBC will get unstreetable real quick but an LSx can still be docile at the same levels.

Just something else to consider in conjunction with power-to-weight.

[bobbaganoosh]

It's kinda like money or hot chicks...you can never have too much.:firefire:

[RSX302]

I will say that hp is more streetable now than it was a decade ago. When I built my 383 10 years ago with a retrofit Hyd roller poeple said 500+ HP and almost 550 ft/lbs was too much. Now cars come from the factory getting better MPG than I do and running similar or better HP figures. So part of the answer is what type of engine are you running? An SBC will get unstreetable real quick but an LSx can still be docile at the same levels.

Just something else to consider in conjunction with power-to-weight.

I think there are two different thoughts about streetability. One is engine performance and the other is car to road/city streets. I talk mostly about the car to road more so engine performance. I agree....with today's technology, serious horsepower is being made that drive like production cars with killer fuel mileage.

[Damn True]

I think there are two different thoughts about streetability. One is engine performance and the other is car to road/city streets. I talk mostly about the car to road more so engine performance. I agree....with today's technology, serious horsepower is being made that drive like production cars with killer fuel mileage.


To that point, I drove a friends M5 last weekend.

500hp and under normal driving it's as docile as my Subaru.

[6'9"Witha69]

^^Exactly

[dcozzi]

Here's my take, for what it's worth:

As much power as you can hook up to the ground reasonably on street tires.
A number your chassis and powertrain can easily handle.
Get numbers you are comfortable with for acceleration. Choose a car you do not want to get smoked by, let's say, 90% of the other cars out there.
Have a broad torque curve for tractibility.
Run pump gas.
Not overheat.
Get reliable service without repair or replacement of major parts such as engine trans etc..
Get mileage you require.


Kind of like: 450 crank TQ=Normally aspirated
750 crank TQ=Forced air

Like others said, it is a number that can be enjoyed in your particular car and make it more fun (as opposed to a chore) to drive.

[trapin]

The real answer is, whatever the tires can handle. 300 hp tire, 300 hp engine. Get the idea?
DING DING DING!!! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

That right there is all the answer you need. No sense sportin' 500rwhp when all you got are 26" tall Nitto radials. The thread could have ended right there.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

id like to stay at 500 at the most..

[Smock67]

I agree with as much as your tires can handle. Because like has already been said in this thread you'll always going to want more its part of life. There is never going to be a good number that will work for everyone. But if your tires can't hold the power then maybe you have too much.....and that was a maybe some people like being able to smoke there tires in any gear that they are in.

[68sixspeed]

never enough hp.... bad addiction! Most 11-12 second rides scare normal people. (those of us here don't qualify as 'normal') 9-10 second rides on the street usually make normal people soil themselves... it's fun other than the cleanup.

[monza]

never enough hp.... bad addiction! Most 11-12 second rides scare normal people. (those of us here don't qualify as 'normal') 9-10 second rides on the street usually make normal people soil themselves... it's fun other than the cleanup.

So funny and so true.:hah:

[rocketman]

never enough hp.... bad addiction! Most 11-12 second rides scare normal people. (those of us here don't qualify as 'normal') 9-10 second rides on the street usually make normal people soil themselves... it's fun other than the cleanup.

Drove a 8 second street car on the street, then it went 7's still on the street. wasn't friendly and about 75/100 miles on a tank was all it was good for, but well worth it for all those aw's.

[Norwoodx55]

DING DING DING!!! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

That right there is all the answer you need. No sense sportin' 500rwhp when all you got are 26" tall Nitto radials. The thread could have ended right there.
Good reference point, but I want about 20% more power than that. I want to be able to haze the tires at speed if I feel like it. I would rather let my foot modulate that threshold than wish I had more power.

[TnaGuy]

IMHO, It's not at all about the number, it's all about the manners...i.e.; idle, usable rpm range, part throttle response, etc. and the combo it's in...i.e.; weight, chassis, tire size, etc. A small motor in a heavy car with poor gearing that makes 500 HP is far less usable on the street than a larger motor in a smaller car with proper gearing and 350 HP. 1000 HP can be fine on the street in the right package (T-T Viper), but 350 HP can work well too (LS1 in an early Camaro). I build WAY too much HP most of the time, but it's often very streetable...

[Jim Nilsen]

You know you have enough when your tires and your brakes are squealing for mercy:seizure:

[Steve Chryssos]

You really can't talk numbers without discussing parts selection.

-A 500HP 327 with 1968 heads and a tunnel ram is relatively useless--even by race car standards. It would require big compression and a big cam to reach that goal.

-A 500HP LSx engine with fuel injection is docile and fully functional.

Cylinder head design has progressed by leaps and bounds. Even on a gen 1 small block, a good combustion chamber design can make all the difference. And displacement is still a useful tool for building streetable NA power.

So you really need to hold the engine type and specs accountable when setting an output goal.

[86Cutlass383SR]

How to tell if there's too much horsepower: When the person behind the steering wheel

#1 Hasn't got the talent or ability to handle it or;

#2 Won't handle that much horsepower in a "responsible" manner.

I've seen people driving 100 HP sub-compacts that had too much power under their posterior!

Doug

[GTOnate]

I don't know how anybody can say 350 is enough I have had the pleasure of owning a couple of 500 horse street cars and they only left me wanting more. The next motor for my camaro is definitely going to be twin turbo and maybe 800 whp or so. Not sure how far I want to take it yet. and also responsiblity is way over rated. I haul a$$ everywhere but school zones lol

[David Pozzi]

I just saw Dale Earnhardt blow a restart by spinning the rear wheels at Vegas Speedway, - he had 850 or so flywheel hp and slicks. He also probably had more than 50% rear weight bias. So I'm wondering how fast you'd have to go with a street car before you'd stop spinning the rear wheels with an 800 rwhp engine. 100+ mph?
David

[andrewb70]

......So I'm wondering how fast you'd have to go with a street car before you'd stop spinning the rear wheels with an 800 rwhp engine. 100+ mph?
David

C'mon now David. Everyone know what racing from a roll is where it's at. Just ask the Supra guys....LOL

Andrew

[Damn True]

I just saw Dale Earnhardt blow a restart by spinning the rear wheels at Vegas Speedway, - he had 850 or so flywheel hp and slicks. He also probably had more than 50% rear weight bias. So I'm wondering how fast you'd have to go with a street car ON NORMAL TREADED STREET TIRES before you'd stop spinning the rear wheels with an 800 rwhp engine. 100+ mph?
David

Fixed that for ya David.

[deuce_454]

it all depends on the car... i presonally wouldnt like to do 5 seconds at WOT in a stock suspension and brakes, 56 beetle with 250 rwhp... while 5 seconds of wot in a 250 rwhp viper or 07 C6 propably puts you to sleep....

id say that if you cant floor the throttle at highway speeds without loosing controll... you have too much horsepower..

i know that you can drive a 1600 Hp tom nelson engined PT car.. but im willing to bet my left thumb that you NEVER ever drive at full boost and WOT on street tires for any number of seconds on public roads...

and if the throttles arent fully open, and boost not up... then the engine isnt developing max Hp...

[67 caprice]

Here is an example of 150 HP and it's way too much.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSmxaORvBQI&feature=related

I bet it was a lot of fun.

[Strip Poker 388]

500hp is pretty fun on the street

[GTOnate]

I just saw Dale Earnhardt blow a restart by spinning the rear wheels at Vegas Speedway, - he had 850 or so flywheel hp and slicks. He also probably had more than 50% rear weight bias. So I'm wondering how fast you'd have to go with a street car before you'd stop spinning the rear wheels with an 800 rwhp engine. 100+ mph?
David

Lol that is true my tires do spin ALOT. Good thing I get discounts on them :twothumbs

[68sixspeed]

Here is an example of 150 HP and it's way too much.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSmxaORvBQI&feature=related

I bet it was a lot of fun.

this one looks cool- great in cart video too-- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Xv76qiJFJg&feature=related gsxr1100 cart.

[67 caprice]

2200 Hp street car.
http://www.tuninglinx.com/videos/fifth-gear-videos/037-fifth-gear-2200hp-vauxhall-victor.wmv

[monza]

2200 Hp street car.
http://www.tuninglinx.com/videos/fifth-gear-videos/037-fifth-gear-2200hp-vauxhall-victor.wmv

He should have a little read on a roll bar padding thread... :box2:

[chicane67]

500 RWHP is about right. Anymore and and it becomes useless, unless you spend the majority of your time about 100mph.