f body oil pan fits 1rst gen without cutting

[ls1 nova]

First pic is full lock right, Second is full lock left. Did not cut oil pan or firewall. Any body else been able to do this?

22819

22820

[merriman44]

How did you perform this miracle?

[MrQuick]

I know its do able with a Hummer or LH8 pan. Home made motor mounts? Nice job.

[chicane67]

...mounts, short SA's and no compensation for deflection.

[ls1 nova]

Chicaine,

please explain what I did wrong??

[ls1 nova]

I have min 3/8 clearance at full lock. If I deflect 3/8 then stock steering is junk wich it is not. Please rebut.

[chicane67]

You did... not one single thing wrong. With the exception of a deflection allowance.

If you dont think your steering isnt going to deflect more than 3/8"... you have more confidence in the idler arm than I could ever have. 3/8" isnt what you think it is... especially in a steering system... even with new HD units from MOOG or Howe. The drag link and idler are the two components that will deflect, under even under moderate loading. Not to forget to mention that engine mounting and the mounts themselves (including the material composition) are going to be big players under drivetrain load/unloading.

[ls1 nova]

Chicaine

Thats what I wanted to hear. I am not an engeener, just a guy who installs elevators for a living. I have plenty enough room to move the engine back 1/8 to 3/16". That would give me over 1/2". I would like to talk to you in person. I believe your name is Tyler. Can I call you tomorrow.

Thanks,
Erik

[chicane67]

Tyler would be "Tito-Jones" of American Touring Specialties. I am just a "thrown under the bus" sidekick... and he too... is well versed in this specific subject.

If you are using poly mounts, I would still try and get the engine as far back as possible (within reasonable limits, obviously). If rubber... no way.

I did a pan combination that had about the same amount clearance as you have currently (non LSx or LT1)... but I used solid engine mounts to locate the engine and used a poly transmission mount. I tried the ploy mounts and was finding witness marks on the pan coating form the tie rod ends finding their way to closing that gap. But... I dont think you'll see that kind of suspension loading that the specific chassis was subjected to.

Its not like your car is going to stop turning or anything... you are just running on that ragged edge... where only few of us live. It would just be nice to see a little more allowance for safeties sake.

I, personally... applaud your efforts. As I have always been one of those who liked doing what others deem difficult or impossible. And put that puppy right there... on the edge of maximum fitment.

Kudos

[ls1 nova]

Thank you for the response. I don't have clearance issues with the toerod ends but the curve of the centerlink. I would love to know the stress on the link. I find it hard to believe that it moves that much and everybody still thinks the stock suspenion is stronger than the rack set up. I still think stock is the way to go. Thats why I am posting this thread.

Erik

[chicane67]

I too, agree. I dont like racks... except on chicks.

It is true. You may not see the loading that my chassis has been delt. But, none the less... 3/8" is really close. Plus you have to remember that you are looking at the combined deflection of the entire system that closes the 3/8". It is possible... but, like I stated, you may never get there... or, maybe you will. I say run it ! Just keep a close eye on it... or move the engine back the 3/16" that you can afford.

[ls1 nova]

Thanks for your input. Would like to have an honest conversation about this with Tyler. How close are you with him. Will not be willing to run this unless you guys will think this will work. Not aware of any body else running stock f body pan. There is no doubt cts-v pan will work. tons of cleareance. only problem is that it sags 1 1/2" below subframe.

[trapin]

How is your underpulley to sway bar clearance in the front?

[70bird]

Maybe just notch the front of the pan a bit before you get too much further along? :dunno:

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

There must not be any firewall clearance..And that will also lead to the transmission clearance in the tunnel because it isnt wide enough for the bell housing with the assembly that far back...Perhapse even Brake booster clearance...I would like to see more pics of the top side..And the comment about the clearance not being enough in motion is correct...When you put a load on the suspension and on the steering, you tolerances will not be correct anymore..

[ls1 nova]

I have 7/8" clearance on pas head to firewall. I also have a richmond 5 speed and a lakewood bellhousing and have plenty of clearance.(the tranny is for mock up only, tko will be on the way) The engine is sitting in the exact front to rear location as my big block. The tranny shifter is in stock location. As for the centerlink clearance this is at full lock only and I have the wheels toed in to much just to make sure there is clearance. With proper alighnment these clearances will open up a little. I dont do much driving with my steering arms pinned on the stops. Turn the wheel less than 1/8 turn back from the stop and clearance is greater than 3/4"

Tell me if I'm wrong (just a guy trying to learn) but if these centerlinks deflect so much why do we spend time correcting bumpsteer?

[MrQuick]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2005/12/popcorn-1.gif

[chicane67]

Its not the center link... it is the whole system combined... steering arm, tie rod, tie rod sleeve, inner tie rod, drag link, idler arm and the joint on the pitman. The joints themselves are the issue.

It can be easily summed up as 'tolerance stacking'. 0.050" or so, for each tie rod (x 4) + another 0.050 to 0.100" for the ilder... and we are already beyond 0.275". That is more than a quarter of an inch.

[ls1 nova]

Chicane,

What do you think about .050 x2, The only thing that affects the position of the centerlik is the idler and pitman arm. Technically a tie rod could fall off and the centerlink would be in the same place?

[ls1 nova]

Here is some pics of the install and parts list.

1" setback plates(Hooker plates should give me 3/16 more centerlink clearance, I have a set ordered)
energy suspension mounts ens-3-1118g(summit)
frame mount E291(short small block)classic industries
pitman arm rp20138(rare parts)
idler arm rp20227(rare parts)
stock center link
short steering arms
Hooker LS1 conversion headers bought from Jet Hot
Corvette front accesories
Turbo 400 transmission crossmember

Would recomend aftermarket upper control arms as the pass header is just a little close. My front suspension should be here tommorow. Will post more pics.

[MrQuick]

Here is some pics of the install and parts list.

98-2002 Oil pan F body
??What plates are you using now??
1" setback plates(Hooker plates should give me 3/16 more centerlink clearance, I have a set ordered)
energy suspension mounts ens-3-1118g(summit)
frame mount E291(short small block)classic industries
pitman arm rp20138(rare parts)
idler arm rp20227(rare parts)
stock center link
short steering arms
Hooker LS1 conversion headers bought from Jet Hot
Corvette front accesories
Turbo 400 transmission crossmember

[ls1 nova]

transdapt 1" setback plates.

[MrQuick]

thank you. I'd just set the engine back a bit more. You look like you have some to spare. 1/4" should do it.

[ls1 nova]

Just a little info. I would not suggest transdapt plates. Not very happy with the quality. I will use them for mock up but will either have a set machined in the proper location or make a set my self. They did not fit very well and motor mounts were junk.

[MrQuick]

I guess you get what you pay for.

[ls1 nova]

Ya no doubt, but it was a cheap easy way to decide where I needed to place the motor. Anybody know where the ATS mounts place the engine or who makes a NICE plate to put the motor 1" to 1 1/4" back?

[ls1 nova]

Chicane ??

[chicane67]

I guess my question is... an inch to 1.25" back in reference to what ??

There is no comparison in position to anything. This engine package was never offered in this chassis to begin with... so, one cannot really reference this to any known OEM fitments as the dimensions are somewhat different.

This... is why Tyler created the ATS engine plate. He figured that if he were going to make an engine plate... that he may as well do it correctly the first time and place the engine in an optimal position for performance use. Remembering... that this may not lend to fitments of every other part on the market... he then offered all other necessary components to make it a true bolt in.

What can I say... some people can design and manufacture things better than others.

Long story short... the engine was moved back and lowered within practical limits. Now... can I say it was an inch or more ?? Well... in comparison to the OEM GEN1 power plant... yes, I am most certain that it is more than an inch and lowered 0.75" or so.

Honestly... the only way to truly compare this would be to measure the crankshaft centerline to the maximum fitments interference component. Meaning, sub frame and firewall. The problem with all other engine plates on the market is... who knows what parts fit with what ?? And yes, you do get what you pay for.

[ls1 nova]

Sorry Chicane,

From reading the posts on Pro-Touring seems like a majority of people are using the S&P plates. I used that as a reference. I moved the engine back 1" from that spot. The easiest point to measure is behind the passenger head. I have 7/8" to firewall. The crank centerline is roughly 4 1/2"-4 3/4" to crossmeber(tough to get accurate measurment) but I do have 11/16" from the bottom of the F-body oil pan to the crossmember. Does your plates shift the motor back any further than that. My engine is sitting at 3 degrees down.

[chicane67]

Oh... my bad. I didnt know if you were refering to the GENI block placement or not.

I would say that the S&P plates are close to... but not as far back and... I know they dont lower the engine as much as the ATS plates do. I dont have anything in hand to measure... or I might be able to give you better numbers right now.

And... -3 to -4* is just fine.

[ls1 nova]

Chicane,

Thanks a lot. Really trying to get this f-body pan to work with adequite clearance. If you get a chance in the future could you please post what the clearance is behind the passenger head.

You must really be up on your sh*t. You called those short arms right off the bat. Do you see a problem using the Lee box even though I already have quicker steering.

Thanks again

[xssive99]

Nice! Thanks for the parts list

[LS1NOVA]

Just have to say, nice screen name! I also have a unmodified Camaro pan with stock steering.

[ls1 nova]

Thats great to hear. How were you able to do this. Any pics?

[69 Ghost]

Any updates on this? I am getting ready to do a conversion and I am still trying to decide on which engine mount setup to go with. I would prefer a true bolt in but I also want to run stock accessories.

[ls1 nova]

Yes, for right now I am using the hooker plates(I will probibly have a nicer set machined). They place the motor back approx 1 5/16 from the s&p style plate. Everything else is the same as the pre mentioned list. As far as I am concerned the motor fits great. In full lock I have 5/8" from front of pan to the centerlink. On the sides of the pan where the centerlink "kicks" I have 1" Here are some pics of the engine placement. As for the accesories the A/C will not fit without a massive notch. Everthing else fits great. Like I mentioned earlier I would sugest some sort of aftermarket upper control arm as the passenger header is a little close. I installed DSE with the guldstand mod and now have tons of room. Steering box clearance is great also. Hope this helps.


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[SatisTraction]

i used the hooker headers and hooker plates. I check the sterring lock to lock and had to put a slight notch in the passenger side front corner. i was still able to use the factory windage tray and factory pick up.

to me this is the best "budget" set up out there for easy fitment.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2007/11/oilpan1-1.jpg

[ls1 nova]

That is exactly what mine looked liked before I installed the short steering arms and the long pitman/idler. As far as "budget" I am not sure. I wanted to use the stock pan but you do have to change a few other things. I do not beleive the brake booster will fit(Do not have one to test). Will have to change to a 9". My car was not equiped with stock A/C but I believe you will have to go aftermarket. Small block heater core will definatly interfere. Stock control arms clear headers but was to close for me. If you are willing to make some changes I think this makes for a very clean install. You will have plenty of room for custom intake, the plates place the motor in the exact same place as GM(my shifter handle comes up in existing hole) headers fit perfect, no need to notch pan or use remote filter, plus utilizes GM frame stands and mounts(even though I went with aftermarket mounts,energy suspension). As a bonus it places the motor low and very far back. Definite bonus. I can't really call it "budget" but is on par with aftermarket. No offense. This is a list of what I used. The only thing that I am not sure about is the steering box. With the short steering arms and the long idler/pitman you end up with very quick steering. If Chicane or somebody else could chime in and suggest a box/ratio I would greatly appriciate it. I would like to use the lee 12:1 box but I am afraid it is to quick with this setup.


Hooker plates(someone should make a machined replica!)
energy suspension mounts ens-3-1118g(summit) With this set up make sure you use the backing plates. Will not fit unless you use them.
frame mount E291(short small block)classic industries
pitman arm rp20138(rare parts)
idler arm rp20227(rare parts)
stock center link
short steering arms-very important and somewhat hard to come by
Hooker LS1 conversion headers bought from Jet Hot
Corvette front accesories minus A/C
Turbo 400 transmission crossmember(May or may not work for your application)

[SatisTraction]

i used the LS1 booster to go along with the LS1 brakes. the booster fits fine but it needed the rear bolt pattern changed. I also have vintage air in a factory air car so that may have helped me some.

good job on the swap!!! cant wait to see it finished.

[WRT68]

any new updates

[SatisTraction]

any new updates

other then the fact that i have put 3000 miles on my set up, not really. love it :)

[neki67]

So no problem so far, right? I'm about to start driving my LS-powered Camaro and also didn't have to cut the oilpan so this is encouraging info.

[ls1 nova]

My project has been stalled since I made that last post in 08. Glad to here you didn't have to cut the pan either. What setups did you guys use?? Hope to get back into mine soon.

[WRT68]

So no problem so far, right? I'm about to start driving my LS-powered Camaro and also didn't have to cut the oilpan so this is encouraging info.
WELL fill us in.:idea:

[neki67]

Anything you don't understand from the use of the question mark and the following sentence in that post?

I don't drive it yet, didn't cut the oilpan hoping to get away with it. Posts in this thread are encouraging enough to make me think it's gonna work. As soon as I know for real, I'll let you all know!

[neki67]

Haven't had it on the track yet but can tell you I didn't have a problem during the approx. 1500 miles I have driven it so far. No marks on the oil pan.