how do i do a seat harness w/out a roll cage

[megaladon6]

my car will be getting a "racing" seat at some point and i want to put in a harness also since some tracks require them (i won't be spending much time at the tracks, but the back roads here are enough to try and throw me out of the seat). however i have neither the money, nor need to put in a roll cage. the problem is, what do i connect the shoulder straps to?

[Steven]

Lot's of posts on the harness and roll cage problem. Best way to look at it is, a harness will keep you upright during a roll over, upright in a roll over without protection = upper body damage or worse. I'm guilty of trying to figure a way W/O a roll cage, but when it comes down to it, I will not gamble with my life on this issue.

I've worked many accidents where vehicles have rolled over at high and slow speeds. Not many have walked away.

[megaladon6]

the thing is that i won't be racing so the roll over hazard is minimal. however there are some fun curves here that try and slide me out of the seat. so i could really use a racing seat and 4 or 5 point harness. but there's no way i could possibly afford a roll cage.

[NOT A TA]

Schroth makes 4 point harness belts designed to attach to stock front and rear belt mounting points and use without a cage.They turn the occupant during an impact and don't have a sub belt. Separate belts for driver and passenger turn the occupants toward center of car if there's an impact and are ordered as different part #'s. Stock belts can be retained for regular driving or back seat usage.

I spent a lot of time researching belts to use while planning out a comprehensive personal safety plan for my car. Racing seats, helmet, fire suit, fire system, rollcage, fuel cell, fuel system shutoff,and cage mounted harnesses are all part of the plan. I will not make my car any faster till all safety items are installed! I've used the schroth 4 point non-cage belts in my car for a couple years now while prepping for the inevitable cage install. There are several models of Schroth belts, here's a link to some of them. http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store/schroth/street-legal/rallye

There's a lot of strong opinions on cages/belts/harness bars etc. So readers please don't bash me for using belts without a cage especially without reading up on the Schroth systems. After having an instructor refuse to get in my car with 35 year lap belts at Lime Rock I needed to do something to upgrade or not take the car to open track days. The Schroth belts were the best option for my needs at the time and I will be installing a full cage soon and the best harnesses I can afford. The Schroth belts have passed tech at NASA events,the ECTA, NMCA, and NHRA dragstrips (Although I've been warned at a couple strips that they aren't really legal according to their book).

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/03/MVC007F1-1.jpg

[megaladon6]

i think we hit the jackpot!! i only have a 400HP (flywheel-with a touch of luck) 383ci so she won't be too fast. plus like i said she probably won't be on the track. (do you have to have a racing license for limerock? it's the only one even near me) i'd love to be able to put in the proper safety systems but money, time and usage all work against that. i'll just have to drive a little bit slower.
thanks for the help!

[68sixspeed]

John- cool stuff; I've been looking for something for my 68 as I don't want to add a bar to that car. (the 69 will have one); to date I've had 5pts in the 68 and I know it's not right without the cage, you gave some good reading for later... -Dan

[NOT A TA]

Both of you guys are relatively close to me and if either(or both) are interested in seeing the belts in person and trying them out before you plunk down the loot for them you're welcome to stop by my shop and check mine out, sit in the car, and snug yourself in to see if you like them.

I own RAD ROB'S a big bicycle/skateboard store in Shelton CT right off of RT8 with 2 buildings and our repair shop area is big enough for me to leave my car in the bay section and work on it after hours. I'm working on some wiring and fuel system changes for safety (oil pressure elec fuel pump shutoff, neutral safety switch etc)and a new product for cars thats going into production this week so the car will be in the shop the next few weeks. 203-924-2317

Megaladon- you don't need a racing license, you can sign up with one of the groups that rents the track and get instruction from professional drivers and track time! Search SCDA or N.A.S.A pro-racing as they run events at Lime Rock Park.

68six speed- If you decide to jump on RT 8 and stop by bring Six Speed! It looks bitchin and reminds me of my red 68 that was stolen in 80. I've got a 67 RS SS conv. with just driveline upgrades but haven't been able to bring myself to put it under the knife.

[Young Gun]

while that is a great system, seriously consider putting in a very simple cage, just so that you can put the harness in, while the previously suggested system seems cool, the best thing you can do is the properly attached harness, that means yah prolly need a cage... nothing more important than your life, dont skip where it counts

[Damn True]

There is one, and only one correct way to install a racing harness in a car.

The various racing entities and racers themselves have spent countless amounts of time developing that "correct way". The system is sadly fueled by trial and error. The error part has harsh, certain, and irrevocable consequences that ultimately put someone at room temperature.

[Zedzag]

Can you please explain how the Schroth harness bolts into a car without a harness bar? Where do the shoulder harnesses bolt to?

[JMarsa]

From:

http://english.schroth.com/tuning/faq.php

Installation Questions:
Can I install the SCHROTH tuning belts in to any car?
SCHROTH belts should be installed ONLY into approved vehicles. Every vehicle on our vehicle reference list has been tested for the proper installation geometry, installation points and strength of the original factory seat.

I'm sure this statement is in reference to the very strict German TUV regulations.


That said, the only US distributor states the Rallye 4 is DOT approved. http://www.schrothracing.com/docs/NHTSA_Letter_of_Approval.pdf

Here's the install doc for the Rallye 3 & 4 model. Happy reading.

http://www.schrothracing.com/docs/Rallye_3_&_4_Instructions.pdf


--JMarsa

[68sixspeed]

Several reasons I don't run a cage or bar in the 68; first it's still an original rs/ss and I have the original driveline put away if I ever wanted to put it back to stock; second, esp. for a tall person like myself a roll bar or even worse a cage is more dangerous than the seat belt situation in the event of an accident on the road where the car spends 98% of it's life. My hair brushes the headliner; I have to use a racing seat for competition events just to get it low enough for helmet clearance; myself and many others would get serious and potentially fatal head injurys from roll bar contact without a helmet on. Some may think it's a safety item or 'looks cool' to have a roll bar in there street car, but in many cases they prove to be more dangerous than not having a bar at all. With a cage the risk of side-head or temple area contact is pretty good. Not a risk I care to take. So yes, it's a trade off, but at least the harness upgrade beats lap-only belts from the 1960's.

[NOT A TA]

When Magaladon first posted this question a month ago I started to write a response and then thought it'd be better to just let the question die. When it was brought up again I figured I'd just post what I used as a short term compromise while I finalized my plans for safety equipment.

I felt using the Schroth system temporarily would be better than using 30 + year old lap belts only with the stock seats. I was not going to stop driving my car for a couple years till I sorted out the details and saved the money. A full cage, the two seats, door net, and cage mounted harnesses will easily be over 4 grand. I may stop driving the 14 car on the street after the cage install due to the risks involved for non helmeted heads in caged cars. It's been a tough decision to make but I like to drive really fast for more than 10-15 seconds at a time. I like road courses, the E.C.T.A. (where there's a 135 MPH limit on non caged cars) and want to try some of the open road Silver State type events. I'm not a big guy so I might luck out and be able to continue street driving occasionally but if my head could contact the cage bars without a helmet I probably will retire it from street duty.

Megaladon says he's "only" got 400 horsepower so "She won't be too fast". Think about that for a moment.

Most of us are building race cars with license plates. There's a lot to consider when choosing a safety package and there's going to have to be compromises when using the car both on and off track or building a powerfull performance machine that may never see a track.

There's a lot of strong opinions about rollbars, cages, seats, and harnesses. Hopefully if nothing else this thread just makes people do more research and consider safety a little more as they build their dream. And everyone should see Steeves post here

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13892

[Zedzag]

Not A TA - Are those the Rallye 4 belts in your car? I'm thinking of putting some Scat Procar Sportsman seats in my 81 and those belts look like the way to go for now unless the stock shoulder belts will somehow work with a seat like the Scats.

JMarsa - thanks for the technical links.

[NOT A TA]

Yes I have the Rallye 4's. From the pics I have seen of the procar sportsman seats it appears that you could use the stock 3 point seatbelts with the retractable shoulder belt. I would check with the Manufacturer of the seats before doing it though.

Same thing with harness belts, research and measure. The Rally 4 belts use the front and rear seat belt anchoring positions. The taller a person is the steeper the rear belt angle becomes as the seat is pushed back.

The combination of seats, possible bars/cages, and harnesses should be considered as a group that needs to work together. Changing one without changing one or more of the others might make your car less safe than stock. Research everything first to be sure you're getting maximum safety performance as well as the "look" you're after. Doesn't matter how fast or cool looking your car was if you or someone else gets killed in it.

Don't just do something because someone else did it, who knows if they were right to make certain mods or if their height,weight, usage, budget etc caused them to use products or installation techniques that weren't optimum or won't work well for you. These types of items and their installation can make the difference between living and dying. Be sure to do what you think is best for you.

I really wish there were some knowledgable "safety experts" that could chime in and answer questions on this forum. I'd hate to have anyone risk personal injury because they couldn't get information or just followed someone elses footsteps.

[MrQuick]

there are a few options over the correct and permanent roll bar. They would have to be adapted to an older car. I've only seen 87-2002 F bodies.

http://robearracing.com/pd_dg.cfm
http://www.racerwheel.com/spr-30007g.html


locar also makes a version.

[bigvegan]

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showpost.php?p=359486&postcount=10 - post for proper geometry for installing belts / harnesses.

I'm hardly a safety expert, but this question comes up about once a month, and I'm a big fan of safety.

The long and the short of it is you really need a cage/roll-bar to use a racing harness effectively unless you can find the proper mounting points somewhere else on your car. A racing harness with shoulder straps mounted to the floor behind the seat is a recipe for spinal compression injuries in the event of an accident.

If you're not going to use a cage/bar, your best bet is probably to go with a three point seatbelt.

There really aren't very many options. For a street car, use a three point shoulder belt. For a track/race car, use a bar / cage with a racing harness.

The Schroth harness as mentioned above might be an option, but you really need to pay attention to the geometry and mounting points, as discussed in their instructions - http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/docs/Rallye_3_&_4_Instructions.pdf.

[Zedzag]

I think I may try and use the stock 81 3pt shoulder belts with the scat seats. If they absolutely won't work, I'll keep old seats in and do it right and buy a roll bar. Then mount the new seats and belts. I woud hate to make the car less safe than it is now.

Thanks for all the good info.