Heidt's 1st gen Camaro Subframe

[CamaroLance]

I have been researching subframes for awhile and have yet to find any pictures of the heidt's subframe installed in a car. Actually every time I do a search it seems like everybody changes the subject to a subframe that cost twice as much. I called Heidt's and they sent me these pictures. Hopefully they don't mind me sharing, but here they are. What do you guys think?

I'm really considering this clip. I don't have a DSE or art morrison budget, so those are out of the question. I have the Heidt's 4-link and it seems to be very well constructed.

[wendell]

What attribute does that Hiedit's frame have that you want?

[CamaroLance]

Well I'm not planning any autocrossing or racing of any sort. I just want something that looks really good, and that will handle similar to a C4 vette. This will be a strictly weekend cruiser.
That said, I like the price of the Heidt's, and I like the looks of it. From what I've seen, they seem to make quality products. They claim it handles tremendously awesome... Of course that's sales talk. Unfortunately, there is no data or testing results for this setup. I'm absolutely sure it would be everything I ever needed, but I'm not sure if it's the best in this particular price range. I also considered TCI, but they also can't give you much technical data. Then there's martz and fatman, but they don't look any nicer than this setup to me.

[68Formula]

You have a PM.

[CamaroLance]

Well if I'm going to be dropping 4k on a suspension, it sure has hell better look good too. Let me guess, you think I should get a second job and buy a DSE clip?

[cheapthrillz]

I was looking at this subframe a few months ago too. I haven't heard of anybody using it on here. I wouldn't mind knowing how well it performs, because 4k for rack and pinion, tubular uca and lca,billet adjustable coilovers, 11" brakes, and tall drop spindles doesn't sounds like a bad deal to me!

[TitoJones]

Lower control arm is in single sheer. Bad news.

If you want handling, throw a set of tall AFX spindles, Global West or SC&C upper control arms, Del-a-lum bushings in factory lowers, and a great set of springs/shocks and you will have the handling you want.

Tyler

[jknight16]

Wow, good call Tyler. Strange that they would do that. Almost makes it look like the LCA mounting was an afterthought...

[68fusion]

Not to bash Heidts but we put this in a customers car and was not happy with it at all. There were several "clearance" issues that should not be there. The coilover/spring was 1/16 away from the rail. When we installed the rack the lines rest against the "extra" crossmember. No provision for the ebrake cable and no brake tabs. Had trouble with fender alignment due to the angle or placement of body mounts at firewall. There is NO bushing left on the rad support, to allow the fenders to fall without pressure being applied to take them back to rocker. I like aftermarket subs but for the money I would clean/paint, arms and ats spindle the stock one! Other than the rack I cant think of one advantage....

[cheapthrillz]

Sounds like good answers!


:drive2:

[CamaroLance]

Well people like you are who I was hoping to hear from. Thanks for all the good info and heads up. Anybody else with this subframe?

Is that 69 finished? Was curious about the handling after that pain in the ass install.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I have had one in the shop, but did not install it. Sold it and used another brand, If you are on a budget I would take Tylers advise and build up a stock frame, which you can build a nice stock subframe.

Or look to one of the less expensive subframes that are actually great products like Speedtech. I ordered a couple SpeedTech Sunframes and have some special pricing, they are ready to go and can deliver them to your door for $5000. You will spend $3000 building up your original frame.

Chris Alston is another good frame for the money, depending on options the CA can be done for $4500 to $5500.

IMHO, Heidts, FatMan, Martz, Scotts, TCI, and any other budget subframe is a "worth what you pay for it product".

[markd]

I had the same dilemma a few months ago! I spent a lot of time researching online and even visited a well know manufacture, before I made my final decision.

I was looking to buy a complete front sub-frame and rear in one shot to save time and shipping costs. I also wanted the ability to somewhat customize the frame to meet my specific needs. I have to say that everyone I spoke to and met, were very nice and they all tired to help me out. Surprisingly, most of the prices were in the same price range. Although, there were a few that where in the $12k to $18k range. I tried not to make money a deciding factor and looked for what I thought best met my needs.

In the end, I decided to buy from Chris Alston’s Chassisworks: http://www.cachassisworks.com/cac_library_7701.html (http://www.cachassisworks.com/cac_library_7701.html)

I spoke to Carl at Chassisworks works and he walked my through a very detailed process to determine what I needed and didn’t need based on what my intent was with the vehicle.

Since, I am building the car in my garage I was looking for a company that had a proven track record and one that I was comfortable with to answer all my questions. I found a few articles on their website outlining the build. They also have very detailed instructions how to assemble everything. Which I felt was important, since I never replaced a front sub-frame before.

The articles: http://www.cachassisworks.com/cac_how_to.html (http://www.cachassisworks.com/cac_how_to.html)

I ordered the frame last month and it arrived at my local UPS hub in about 2 ½ weeks. I saved about $50 by picking it up at the UPS hub. It was actually easier to do it this way, because they used a forklift to put it in my truck.

I will start assembling the sub-frame in about two weeks and will document and post updates here on the forum

Hope this helps!



Disclaimer: I am in no way affiliated with Chassisworks. I am just an average Joe trying to build a 69 Camaro in his garage and the above are only my opinions

[wendell]

Well if I'm going to be dropping 4k on a suspension, it sure has hell better look good too. Let me guess, you think I should get a second job and buy a DSE clip?

If this was directed at me then you're about as far off base as you can be.

[CamaroLance]

Wendell, that was a response to a post that's since been deleted. No worries.

[BonzoHansen]

Lower control arm is in single sheer. Bad newsCan some one please explain this in layman's terms?

Edit: do you mean the way it is bolted to the SF, with no bracket on both sides of the arm mouting point?

Single Shear: -|ARM

Double Sheer (?): -|ARM|-

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://img179.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heidts1eg3.png)

[CamaroLance]

I think you are right on with what he meant by that.

I was giving that some thought the other day and if you notice, the lca is bolted all the way through the crossmember. That leads me to believe that it would be just as strong as being "double sheer". I'm not an engineer, so I may very well be wrong. Just my opinion.

[LowBuckX]

As always I could be wrong.. :Alchy:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[CamaroLance]

Great drawings there. If I were so talented I would insert an image. What I was talking about is, where you have the bolt going through a single "sheer" of metal, that isn't the case. The bolt actually goes through two "sheer's", which would be both sides of the crossmember. I know that is still not as strong as if the bushings had a sheer on both sides. BUT I do see that not being nearly as much of a flex point as if the lca was bolted to a single sheer of metal. That would be BAD, a total no no on heidt's design.
The front mount on the lca is actually double sheer on both sides of the bushing. Don't know why they designed the rear mount like they did, but I think it would be plenty strong.
What do you think?

[ProdigyCustoms]

The whole damn thing is just to light and flexable. It does not take any science or math to to see this. You can just look at it and see it is not built for our purposes. I am not really sure what it's purpose is except change for the sake of change.

[Vegas69]

It's as simple as leverage. You have 4 inches of bolt hanging out of the frame VS being supported on both sides. If you want a good sub I have a complete freshly restored original with all the DSE goodies for 2k less than that pile o chit. It's at Franks shop ready to be picked up.

[CamaroLance]

Frank, I've been thinking more about that Speedtech subframe that you mentioned for 5k shipped. Could you give me details of what that includes. Does it have brakes? If not, what kind of spindles does it use. I have wilwoods for my gm spindles. Will they work with that? Pictures of what I would be getting would be great!

[ProdigyCustoms]

Give me a call Lance. It is better to discuss over the phone.

four zero seven 832 1752

[Danny Thomas]

Any comments on the new Art Morrison subframe. Seems to be about $2k less than DSE

[ProdigyCustoms]

Danny, List on the The Art Morrison sunframe is $6000, the DSE is $6700. Performance numbers wise we call them dead equal, so it is really a matter of what style you like.

I talked to Bill earlier, We have used and sold many of each, give me a call and we can talk about it

four zero seven 832 1752

[MrQuick]

Any comments on the new Art Morrison subframe. Seems to be about $2k less than DSE

Fantastic frame. Run a search. Discussed here alot.

[ProdigyCustoms]

BTW, Lisa and I, Craig and Art Morrison, closed the bar last night at Hot Rods & Restoration, and after many cocktails I heard a secret! Like I said, call me.

[Danny Thomas]

Frank- Will give you a call. Thanks again. Looking forward to doing some business with people who know there stuff.

[markd]

CamaroLance,

Have you decided which sub-frame you are going with?

[CamaroLance]

I've yet to decide on which subframe to use. I wish I had no budget, that would make things so much more easy.
I saw the pictures of your chassisworks setup. Looks good!

[HHMC14]

Ouch.....on the heidts subframe. I honestly think it is one of the best for the $$$. I am not one to bad mouth other products....each and every kit out there may have their goods and bads, but I will not think twice on my purchase with the guys at Heidts. The performance I have gotten from stock is unreal. Unless you have driven a car with ALL kits, I wouldnt say anything bad about any of them IMO. Oh yeah....and you want results, you may find this interesting.
http://www.superchevy.com/technical/chassis/suspension_steering/sucp_0703_1968_camaro_slalom_test/index.html

[CamaroLance]

Finally! I was wondering if they were going to post any #'s on that. It's like they ran the article, said they were going to post the #'s in the next issue and then forgot about it. I was beginning to think that the numbers just sucked to bad to publish.

Are you running the Heidt's subframe, or just heidt's modified stock frame?

[68Formula]

The letters HHMC14 and the very first post is touting Heidt's subframe seems a little suspicious. Hopefully this is not another manufacturer rep attempting to pass themselves off as the average joe, because that is a big no-no here.

In regards to the testing there the biggest difference seems to be when the tires were changed which makes sense because tires can have a huge affect on how a car handles. There is some improvement with the original tires, but it's not hard to see improvement with new components and a decent alignment. Not to mention there the rear was changed to a 4 link at the same time. And of course there is nothing to verify it's long term durability. I would take this data with a grain of salt.

[CamaroLance]

Yeah Mike, I kinda had those thoughts too about that post, but thought I would give him the benefit of the doubt.
You're right, those tires made a big difference, but I'm sure the originals were mounted on 15" wheels, so that would totally make sense.

[dipren443]

I was trying to find a good illustration to demonstrate the difference between single and double shear without getting too nerdy.

Shear is referring to a type of stress, not directly how many pieces of metal the bolt passes through.

Here is a neat little animation that will hopefully help some understand what a double shear bolted joint is. http://www.ijee.dit.ie/OnlinePapers/Interactive/Philpot/bolted_double.htm

For the bolt to fail in a double shear application, it would actually have to exert twice the force as it would in a single shear application.

Look at the last note in the animation... The shear stress is divided over 8 cross sectional areas of bolt... Your first thought may be that there are only four bolts in that example. Sooo, in a nutshell, by having the bolt supported on both sides, you are doubling the strength of the member... Imagine each side of one of the lower control arm mounting points as a cutting surface...

Hope that wasn't too confusing.

[vp23271]

CamaroLance,

I started down the same road you are about a year ago. To try to keep in budget I decided to grind down the original sub-frame to remove the factory weld slag/splatter. Had a set of Detroit Speed sub-frames welded in and then had both shot in gloss black. Picked up a pair of Global West upper and lower control arms and a set of tall spindles from ATS. Now I am planning on picking up the Lee 670 PS box and my front end is almost complete.

The "good" problem is that their is sooo many choices and options to choose from!

The down side for me is I have a budget for my 68 and need to stick to it. Keeping the stock sub-frame and just working it over and having a smooth coat of gloss black did the trick for me.