What trans to select for resale

[johnny rockett]

I am building a nice 67 Camaro with an ls engine to sell. What would be better for resale.......stick or auto? I wuld like to hear from this forum with some votes
Thanks

[dstryr]

Resale value? I'm thinking the m6... Most people like the six speeds in their "toys"

[johnny rockett]

If the wife cant drive the car you might have a hard time selling it with a stick.......anybody concur?

[70bird]

If the wife cant drive the car you might have a hard time selling it with a stick.......anybody concur?
I agree. For resale auto may be better, but for god's sake, teach her to drive a stick! :6gears:
Mark

[BlindSideCustoms]

depends on who your selling to, a collector or person with lots of cash OR just your normal guy wanting a hot rod. the collector/rich guy's wife probably would be driving her x5 bmw and not care about the camaro. most people i know dont buy something their wife can drive and hell the wife doesnt want to drive it. what woman would want to hear their husband after they hit a curb or did something to damage his baby? in my opinion 6 speed in a camaro would help it, now in a older more conservative/less muscle machine yes id say go auto if you wanted to. the m6 is also a good buying point i dont know of any guy that wouldnt buy one because of it, but i know many that would buy it and the same car sitting side by side with a a4 and pay more for the m6

[jaybee]

As with all sale situations it's all about the buyer. An older buyer, rich guy who just wants to profile, or "street rod" sort of buyer will prefer an auto. An enthusiast driver or someone with fond memories of rowing a Hurst shifter in anger will prefer the stick. IMO you can find a buyer for it either way without too much trouble.

[johnny rockett]

These were ALL good answers.......I am at that point of deciding.

I started this project and changed my mind in the middle of it wanting what I had in high school...a 55 chevy 2 dr post..

But all were good points...the automatic is cheaper.....a 4l60e bolts right in but then you need some electronics to control it..........so maybe the stick cost would be the same?

One more question: Why a heavy 6 speed with an extra gear you never use anyway? Why not a TKO 600 five speed with only one overdrive?
I cant understand all the hype about a T56? Who need that big suker under there and why do you need two overdrives>?

I am curious?

[Tom 72RS/SS]

I kinda agree with jaybee on the subject but I tend to be of the opinion that muscle cars and sticks go hand in hand. When I was looking for another Camaro I wouldn't even consider an auto, but that's me.
But remember for "resale", that time and time again at the B-J Auction, the stick cars always bring more money than the autos everytime.

[67rsssls]

My wife would never let me buy a performance car without a manual tranny. She loves to bang gears just as much as I do.

[Restomod]

OH GEEESSSS not anouther " What can I build to sell it for $$ thread"..........

[Vegas69]

If the wife cant drive the car you might have a hard time selling it with a stick.......anybody concur?

If you are that whipped you can't buy mine...I want it going to a good home. :lmao:

[bigvegan]

6 speed manual. End of discussion.


One more question: Why a heavy 6 speed with an extra gear you never use anyway? Why not a TKO 600 five speed with only one overdrive? I cant understand all the hype about a T56? Who need that big suker under there and why do you need two overdrives>?

Higher top end, closer gear ratios, better gas mileage. Oh, and people do use the 6th gear. Remember the dreaded 2nd/3rd gear lockout that came on the 90s Vettes/Camaros with 6 speeds? That's because the V8 engine had enough torque that you could use 1-4-5-6 as a 4 speed and save some gas. When I owned a Camaro of that vintage, I shifted that way in daily driving even though the lockout had been removed because the city mpg was so abysmal.

(Think about why you're not putting a 2-speed Powerglide in there, as the reasons are basically the same.)

If you're building a pro-touring car, it should be a six-speed, but it definitely should be a stick.

If you're going for ProStreet, then you can get away with a built up TH350/TH400, and if you're going for a street rod, then you can throw in whatever you want and sell it to the "Ooooh, shiny!" crowd.

If you're going for the motorsports capable vibe, you might be able to chuck in a 4 speed stick and some other bargain circle track parts, run it through some autocrosses and track days, and sell it as a Retro-SCCA-Trans-Am inspired vehicle, as these seem to be gaining in popularity. Plus, yours would have some actual track (or "track") time. This could be built on a reasonable budget.

I guess it all depends on what market you're going for.

If it's a one-off thing, do whatever you want and hope for the best. If you're planning on building and selling more than one of these, and would like to get a decent reputation for the cars you've built (and the accompanying increase in value), then it helps to use the right stuff.

Is it just me, or does it seem like building a mid-level PT Camaro for profit is an exercise in futility?

[MrQuick]

You know it depends on the buying crowd. I've sold dozens of cars in the past and its always been " Man if it was only a 4 speed car" then next time around it would be " wish it were automatic". Its just what ever is in the cards. But you know if it had a cool feature ie: paddle shifters or a custom pistol grip then its anybody's game.

Just a note. I had more 4 speed calls on the last one I sold.

[Iamtheonlyreal1]

Ha Ha.....I am not the only one....LOL...

[MrQuick]

dude, quit being a goof ball.

[cheapthrillz]

dude, quit being a goof ball.

x2 agreed!

[parsonsj]

6 speed manual. End of discussion.The TKO-600 is a better choice for a lot of people. It is stronger, lighter, has more shifter options, more speedometer options, and can be had with a track-useful .82 OD 5th gear. It's also a good choice for a car with a high hp engine that isn't very happy cruising at 1500-2000 rpm.

jp

[ProdigyCustoms]

8 out of 10 cars we do are manual transmission, 5 or 6 speeds. So from a desirability stand point, I would think manual trans is most desirable. If I were building it to sell, it is what I would do.

[johnny rockett]

Looks like you guys convinced me....on the stick anyway.....But I still for the life me dont see using 6 gears when you can really get the same benefit out of a five speed.......2 overdrives just no make sense......even though I am trying to make sense of it.......


also the 6 speed trans is very heavy compared to a TKO 600

The TKO will handle 600 ft pounds of torque so uless your making over 7oo hp this trans seems to be suffcient for the power.

This car is very well thought out except for the trans situation. I figure the automatic (electric four speed 4l80e or 4l60 e) will be the same cost as a stick with all the electronics etc....

[ProdigyCustoms]

Yeah, i like the TKO 600 to, but you will be able to find a T56 that was born behind a LS1 for half the cost of a new TKO 600, which I doubt very serious you will find used. If it is for resale, you need to protect your cost. If you need a new trans, I can hook you up but you will spend nearly $4000 for what you can do for a couple grand with a used T56 and a ATS installation kit.

[hoosiergta]

Now I don't want to be laughed of the page but being a low buck family man I put a t-5 in the T-A and when brickly going through the gears you wouldn't beleive how many thimes I've tried to shift into 6th ..........just seems like I need another gear! ( and I only have a 3.23 rear)

[bigvegan]

How about the Tremec TR6060? (The latest update of the T56).

They're just barely starting to put those in NEW cars, so you'd have the trickest tranny on the block if you got that one.

They're pricing out at about $2900 for the late-model Mustangs in the aftermarket.

Frank (if you're still following this), any idea what they're going for for GM engines? Are they available yet?

- HoosierGTA, I know exactly how you feel. My daily driver's a 5 speed Corolla, and even with only 120hp, I feel like I need an extra gear, as the engine starts revving higher than it ought to at highway speeds. (The final drive ratio is 3.941 to 1, so that makes sense I guess).

You can't go wrong with too many gears. Just ask Mercedes and BMW, who are currently coming out with 7 and 8 speed automatic transmissions.

[Vegas69]

7 or 8 gears is great in an Auto. Try shifting manually with that many gears and 600 horsepower. Not feasible or needed.

[parsonsj]

You can't go wrong with too many gears.If these gears were free, I'd agree with you. Having them around just in case... sure. Who can argue against that?

The problem is that each of the gears costs something. They use mass and dimension, and add complexity to the transmission. They make your transmission weigh more and consume more space in the tranny tunnel. So at some point you can have too many gears. Have you ever driven one of the early C4s with the Nash 4+3 manual transmission? Each of the upper 3 gears had an overdrive associated with it. It was too complex, and not very reliable. That was too many gears!

If you do your homework, and select the right gearing, the TKO fits the need very very well, especially for higher horsepower cars.

Now, with all that said, Frank is right: if you have an LSx, and if we are talking about resale and profit, then you're probably better off using a salvage yard T56 in good condition rather buying a new transmission.

jp

[paulk68]

how much work is it to change an automatic to a stick?

[steemin]

A big part of old school cool is bangin gears.
I wouldn't own a hot rod/toy without a manual trans.
I just feel more connected......
Now for my DD's its gotta be auto...
Scott

[johnny rockett]

Thanks for all the input.....evrybody really good pointers much of which I never thought of.........I am thinking I now need a 7 spped.
Funny what the human mind can do to you!

I think I am convinced the 6 speed for the money is the better deal...however for the pure pleasure of shifting the TKO 5 speed and light weight are appealing....

[TonyHuntimer]

There's nothing wrong with a well-built automatic. I drive mine in traffic everyday. Not a lot of traffic, but enough to make me glad that I have an automatic. Automatics are better in the quarter mile and the right auto will kick but on the road course. It's hard to beat the torque output to the ground from an automatic over a stick.

:drive2:

Tony Huntimer
RaceHome.com

[cheapthrillz]

I think that a good 4l60e with a shrifter setup would kick ass and get alot of attention. It would also be a blast to drive IMO...

[Steve Chryssos]

http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=1747

There is a decent Poll thread on Lateral-g.net regarding manual vs manumatic. I say decent, because the specific application is a high HP application. But as is the case with all threads, the responses tend to wander over a wider range of applications. Results run 55/45 in favor of the manual and have been that way since the poll's inception. The poll is fairly comprehensive since it was started way back in 2005. While, it doesn't prove anything, the poll suggests that the manumatic option is more desirable than anyone expected, myself included. Technically speaking, it's a pretty good read, too.

That's about as objective as I can be on the subject. Contrary to any objectivity, I offer this comparison:
Auto:
https://www.pro-touring.com/events/pigeon_forge_2006/air-ride-2nd-gen-camaro-medium.wmv
Stick:
CX5Y0Pk567Y

[Steve1968LS2]

If the wife cant drive the car you might have a hard time selling it with a stick.......anybody concur?

No, because most guys wifes don't drive thier husbands toys.

Generally you want an automtic (for better resale) in a daily car (sedan, van, truck, etc) and a manual trans in a sports car. I would consider our cars more in line with sports cars than transportation. Look at Vettes.. manual trans is far more desirable and has better resale.

An exception would be a paddle shifted automtic.. it would have the best of both worlds.

[Steve1968LS2]

There's nothing wrong with a well-built automatic. I drive mine in traffic everyday. Not a lot of traffic, but enough to make me glad that I have an automatic. Automatics are better in the quarter mile and the right auto will kick but on the road course. It's hard to beat the torque output to the ground from an automatic over a stick.

:drive2:

Tony Huntimer
RaceHome.com

True, but the question wasn't "what's better" it was "what would have better resale" and from what I've seen the answer would be a manual trans. Even with restored cars. Look at how manuals are desired over automatic cars.

[got_hp?]

Originally Posted by johnny rockett
If the wife cant drive the car you might have a hard time selling it with a stick.......anybody concur?

Originally Posted by Vegas69
If you are that whipped you can't buy mine...I want it going to a good home. :lmao:



YES !!!! :machine:

[johnny rockett]

This forum is great because you have so many varied views on the subject and all are very valid points. Many of which I would never have thought of. This forum is a perfect sounding board for a subject like this.

I am thinking high HP cars should stick with an automatic..and the lower HP cars under 600 hp might want an stick.

I dont think anybody with a twin turbo car would want a stick?

If your selling a big HP car.....480le

If your lower than 600 HP then put in a TKO600

If price counts then a T56 would be cheaper but more of a pain to install.........

Is my take correct......

[TonyHuntimer]

True, but the question wasn't "what's better" it was "what would have better resale" and from what I've seen the answer would be a manual trans. Even with restored cars. Look at how manuals are desired over automatic cars.

Hmmm. That's valid up to a certain point. Stop laughing and hear me out. :) For resale value, if you were buying a $10K car and it had an auto, there's a good chance a by buyer may look past it for a car with a stick (if he wants a stick). If you sold Penny with an automatic, the buyer would probably buy it and swap the auto for a stick...if he really wanted a stick. When Charley bought the Mule, he probably would have purchased it with an auto or stick. IMHO the auto or stick question is moot if the car you're selling is over $30K (if I had to set a price range).

But what do I know? It's just an opinion of a guy who paid $700 for his 68 Camaro and hasn't purchased a classic car for 13 years. I don't know the market like Steve or Charley. :)

Tony Huntimer
RaceHome.com

[70bird]

It's hard to beat the torque output to the ground from an automatic over a stick.
Sorry to take this discussion in yet another direction, but I am cunfused now. I was always under the impression that a manual is more efficient in putting the power to the ground than an auto. in terms of powertrain losses. Not so?
Maybe I don't understand the context of the statement.
Mark

[Vegas69]

You are correct. An auto will always have less power at the tailshaft due to slippage. A torque converter always slips to some degree unless it is a new computer controlled tranny and usually they only lock up in overdrive under light loads for fuel economy.

[WayneE]

You are correct. An auto will always have less power at the tailshaft due to slippage. A torque converter always slips to some degree unless it is a new computer controlled tranny and usually they only lock up in overdrive under light loads for fuel economy.


They're locking them earlier and earlier now. My E55 would lock up right off a stoplight if you were easy on the gas. You'd feel the supercharger disengage (it had a clutch on the blower pulley), the converter lock and then the 1-2 shift.

[MonzaRacer]

honestly for the cash get a well built 4l60e/4l65e (the 4l65e has better internals) and then throw on a paddle shifter for good measure and a good floor shifter always looks good and besides ya gotta have it to get it into reverse and park.

[TonyHuntimer]

Sorry to take this discussion in yet another direction, but I am cunfused now. I was always under the impression that a manual is more efficient in putting the power to the ground than an auto. in terms of powertrain losses. Not so?
Maybe I don't understand the context of the statement.
Mark

I don't know much about fluid dynamics, but I'm under the impression that initially (launching from a dead stop), the stator in the torque converter multiplies torque put to the ground.

Taken from: http://www.hardcore50.com/technical_articles/TorqueConverters.htm

#############
HOW THE STATOR MULTIPLIES TORQUE

The stator wheel is mounted on the converter hub and floats on a set of one-way roller bearings. The one-way clutch allows the stator to rotate in one direction, but not the other. The stator's blades curve in the opposite direction of the impeller and turbine blades. At idle, fluid coming off the turbine blades hits the stator blades in such a way that the stator wants to turn the wrong way. It doesn't spin, however, because the one-way clutch holds it tight. As a result the fluid slings back toward the impeller.

As long as the impeller continues to turn faster than the turbine, torque will be multiplied and the converter will act like a giant reduction gear. The amount of torque multiplication is usually about 21, which is like slipping the clutch when starting out from a dead stop. The added torque helps get the vehicle moving without lugging down the engine.

As the vehicle starts to move, the speed of the turbine wheel starts to catch up with that of the impeller. As the speed of the turbine approaches 90 percent of the speed of the impeller, the fluid dynamics inside the converter change. The fluid flows at a much steeper angle and now strikes the stator blades from the backside. This pushes the stator in the right direction and starts it turning. As soon as the stator starts to spin, however, torque multiplication is lost and the converter locks up. The stator freewheels at the same speed as the turbine and impeller, and the three elements become a fluid coupling.

The hydraulic lockup that occurs is not the same as the mechanical lockup that occurs in a torque converter equipped with a computer-controlled mechanical clutch. Because there is no mechanical connection between the impeller and turbine wheels, an ordinary torque converter will experience up to 10 percent slippage between the engine and transmission. This hurts fuel economy and performance, so the torque converters in most late-model vehicles have a computer-controlled pressure plate that locks up against the housing when the vehicle is about a certain speed and/or in higher gears. A computer-controlled solenoid controls the flow of hydraulic pressure from the transmission to apply and release the pressure plate. When the plate is engaged, there is no slippage between the engine and transmission, and the torque converter acts like a solid member in the driveline. But when the brakes are applied or the vehicle is idling with the transmission in gear, the pressure plate is released so the torque converter can slip.

##########

Maybe I misunderstand...

Tony Huntimer
RaceHome.com

[WayneE]

I think you've got it, Tony.

Next up, higher stall speeds!

:razz:

[barraza]

One more question: Why a heavy 6 speed with an extra gear you never use anyway? Why not a TKO 600 five speed with only one overdrive?
I cant understand all the hype about a T56? Who need that big suker under there and why do you need two overdrives>?

I am curious?
Most people don't investigate enough and use a take out tranny behind an early motor which is a mistake. It's true that most carbed engines with healthy cams don't need a .5 sixth gear, but the aftermarket T56 has better ratios(.62 instead of .5 sixth). It also plugs into a standard bellhousing, uses a standard clutch, and also a standard speedo drive. It will be cheaper unless you get a tranny for nearly free. Mine was less than $2k, brand new and fell right in where a T10 was.

[Steve Chryssos]

No. Everyone is right. Manual transmissions off less parasitic loss and direct drive coupling--100% coupling efficiency between the engine and transmission. Manual transmissions do not offer torque multiplication.

Automatic transmissions, inversely have more parasitic loss and some slippage when not locked up.

Confusion is is largely the result of lumping coupling efficiency (slippage) with driveline efficiency (parasitic loss). Adding to that confusion is the fact that slippage is both a good thing and a bad thing--not just a negative. It's what makes automatics easier to drive in traffic. It also saves hard parts when drag racing and eliminates the need to interrupt power transfer during gear changes. It can therefore be argued that the automatic's higher parasitic losses can be written off when compared to the between-gear power interrupt and lack of torque multiplication of a manual transmission.

[TonyHuntimer]

No. Everyone is right. Manual transmissions off less parasitic loss and direct drive coupling--100% coupling efficiency between the engine and transmission. Manual transmissions do not offer torque multiplication.

Automatic transmissions, inversely have more parasitic loss and some slippage when not locked up.

Confusion is is largely the result of lumping coupling efficiency (slippage) with driveline efficiency (parasitic loss). Adding to that confusion is the fact that slippage is both a good thing and a bad thing--not just a negative. It's what makes automatics easier to drive in traffic. It also saves hard parts when drag racing and eliminates the need to interrupt power transfer during gear changes. It can therefore be argued that the automatic's higher parasitic losses can be written off when compared to the between-gear power interrupt and lack of torque multiplication of a manual transmission.

Thanks for the "informed" answers. :)

Tony Huntimer
RaceHome.com

[rocketman]

The TKO-600 is a better choice for a lot of people. It is stronger, lighter, has more shifter options, more speedometer options, and can be had with a track-useful .82 OD 5th gear. It's also a good choice for a car with a high hp engine that isn't very happy cruising at 1500-2000 rpm.

jp

T-56 only, I have to many problems with TKO's I would only go 6-spd

[rocketman]

I agree. For resale auto may be better, but for god's sake, teach her to drive a stick! :6gears:
Mark

I taught mine to drive a Lenco on the street(not real well but she could for those night I drank to much at show's or cruise nights)

[rocketman]

But a auto is almost a sure bet to sell, a 700r4 or something like it

[johnny rockett]

The trans choice is not always about power. Its about preference and how it will be driven? How it will be driven is a matter of choice for the new buyer......so are there more automatic buyers or stick buyers? To me that is what it comes down to?

I raced A serious NHRA class for 30 years.......always raced a stick. The latter years it was a clutchless piece.

I was asked by a company to back to back an automatic 3 speed ( Pro Flight) a six thousand dollar torque flight now currently used by almost every serious Comp Eliminator guy in the country against my clutchless 5 speed.......NHRA wanted to know if the Automatic was faster or how much weight you had to take out to make them equal the ET. I was the record holder at the time so they chose me and it had to be done within hours.......same track same day......We did it with about 4 guys and changed it out pretty fast and was given the right torque convertor for my engine ( A1)

The results were: We had to remove 250 pounds out of the car to match the 5 speed times with the auto.......These were the best of the best of both worlds.

You can interpulate from the above to decide what is what.....A clutchess trans is worth about a .10 to .15 in Elapsed time over the standard trans. Ronnie Sox maybe not that much.

By the way when you get in the 3000 pound area....100 pounds out a car is worth a tenth of a secind in ET

So given the same weight if you can shift........the stick will be about a tenth faster than the auto....

Thought you might be interested in that info.........it all holds true today because of that test the automatics are given a 250 pound weight reduction in class racing that affects them.....usually they are giving them a larger engine since they have to weigh per cubic inch and most cars cannot get out the 250 pounds.