HOWE tall upper and lower ball joints

[BigBlockOlds]

How many of you out there are running these? Any problems?

I have them installed on my '87 Cutlass project with the SC&C Stage II kit but have been hearing a few horror stories about these ball joints snapping off.

One particular thread ended up saying it was due to cheaply made aftermarket spindles but I've heard from a few others using perfectly fine stock spindles that have also had the ball joint studs snap off.

To be honest, I am a bit concerned about using these, especially after all of the time and effort that has gone into my car. I don't need a ball joint snapping off and sending my car into the ditch or worse, another car.

Is there an equivalent Moog ball joint that would allow me to keep the same geometry as the HOWE ball joints?

Thanks,

[bochnak]

I have one seen one thread in which an incorrect taper on a spindle caused a failure.

Care to post the threads you found?

[wendell]

What did Marcus say when you asked him?

The Howe ball joint, in any stud length, is by far the finest ball joint ever bestowed upon man. In every way superior to the Moog product (not available in extended stud). Failures can occure from an improperely formed taper on the spindle or from exceeding the ROM of the ball joint.

If you're worried about spindle taper, spray some paint on the stud and seat it on the spindle. When you remove it you should see a witness mark. Mock everything up with out a spring and cycle it up and down to see that you don't exceed the range of motion.

Genreally there's more to building a car than message boarding and orderring parts. You're ultimately responsible for what you do to your car. Research, investigate, test, verify, refine...
Good luck with your project and post some pictures.

[bochnak]

If you're worried about spindle taper, spray some paint on the stud and seat it on the spindle. When you remove it you should see a witness mark. Mock everything up with out a spring and cycle it up and down to see that you don't exceed the range of motion.

I have used a sharpie marker instead of paint. Works well on valve seats, too.

[83hurstguy]

There was a member on Oldspower who had it happen on OEM spindles without excessive wear... I was planning on ordering these for my H/O, but like Andrew, I was concerned after seeing this story...

http://www.oldspower.com/vb/showthread.php?t=35260&highlight=Howe

I actually have to call Savitske's to order my Currectracs today or tomorrow... maybe I'll ask Mark about this if he hasn't responded by then...

[bochnak]

Looks like in both cases the tapers did not match. You can see how the upper BJ had good engagement, and the lower did not.

[Apogee]

Applied properly, they should be just as reliable, if not more, than an OE replacement ball joint, but that's true of most peformance parts. The Howes are far better metallurgy, heat-treat...everything compared to the OE junk. Mismatched tapers or loose ball-joints are begging for failure.

Tobin
KORE3

[83hurstguy]

Just had an phone conversation (and ordered my lower Currectracs, yay!) with Mark from Savitske's... after hearing the stories about these failures, and stories of where everything BUT the ball joints have broken (:eek:), I'm confident in the Howe pieces... it's definitely a good lesson in checking how they seat before assembling your front suspension.

Andrew, I'd pull your spindles and check them, and if everything is seating right, you shouldn't have a problem. I'm going to order a stage 2 setup soon. :)

Thanks again, Mark!

[Marcus SC&C]

Wendell,Tobin and 83HG have the right idea. The whole reason Howe built the Precision Series ball joints is because OE style ball joint failure is such a common problem in circle track racing. Hit the wall,break a ball joint. Hit another car,bend a ball joint stud etc. etc. These guys have to change them so often that the lower arms lose their press fit and they have to be welded in (the rules also require it),then cut out when they break or bend. As a result it`s darn near impossible to find a set of G or 2nd Gen F body lower arms in a junkyard in many parts of the country. There are numerous race cars that have gone hard into the wall 4 and 5 times with the same Howe ball joints. I know a few that were front clipped because the rails were too baddly bent to straighten but they reused the ball joints (in new arms)! Even in the event that a stud is bent they can be easily changed in about 5 mins. without taking the ball joints out of the car. They were designed to be quickly and easily servicable in the field. Howe is currently applying the same HD balljoint materials,heat treat procedures etc. filling military contracts to correct OE ball joint failure issues on overloaded up-armored vehicles in Iraq.
Bottom line is that you can break anything if it`s improperly installed,interfaced with other parts that are out of spec,improperly tightened etc. That`s why it`s always a good idea to take your time,be careful and check the fit of all your parts suspension and otherwise before you get excited and slap em together. Something as simple as a metal burr or piece of grit in the taper can yield a false torque reading and cause the components to get loose and sloppy over time setting them up for a fatique failure. That goes for ball joints just like it does for connecting rod bolts etc. The poorly reamed tapers on some of the repro spindles on the market are just plain shocking. If you have a set you think may be bad give us a call we can re-ream them for you for $15ea. We`re not trying to make money on it,just cover our costs and keep people safe. Stock spindles can have issues too if they were run with bad ball joints or were ever in an accident etc. Who knows what some of our pampered babies went through 20 or 30 years ago when they were just somebodys back and forth to work car? :hmm:
One last note,there are several companies coming out with their copies of Howe ball joints in the near future (they were showing them at PRI). Some of them ARE made in China and some of them really left me scratching my head when I saw their internals. In order to dance around Howe`s patents they have to make them kinda goofy and I do have some doubts as to how well they`ll hold up in the real world. Mark SC&C

[BigBlockOlds]

Thanks for the help guys. I'm going to pull my front suspension back apart and check for proper engagement of the ball joints.

Someone mentioned Range Of Motion with the ball joints. How do you know if you've exceeded this? Could there be a problem if someone is running the Stage II kit and doesn't put some sort of limiter on the suspension to keep the control arms from hitting the frame? That assuming you will hill jumping a car of course.

On my '87 I've installed a cable limiter setup as used on drag cars for my front suspension to keep it from over extending.

Thanks again for the help,

[Marcus SC&C]

With OE spindles unless they were damaged at some point the tapers will fit and work just fine. One reason we sell the tall ball joints as part of a package with specific upper A arms is to assure the proper ball joint mounting angles and full range of motion. The Howe ball joints have a 64* range of motion,almost twice that of a monoball ball joint. At maximum droop a typical StreetComp package will still have about 33% (!) of its ball joint travel left. It`s a good thing to be aware of potential pitfalls but there`s no need to reinvent the wheel,that`s why you bought an integrated package in the first place. :) Mark SC&C

[BigBlockOlds]

Took a couple pictures of my taper pattern. Do these look okay?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/03/IMG_0294-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/03/IMG_0293-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/03/IMG_0292-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2008/03/IMG_0291-1.jpg

Thanks guys.

[Marcus SC&C]

It`s hard to tell without having them in hand to turn them around and see how the light hits it but from the pics those look real good to me. You want nice even contact 360* and with nearly full height contact in the taper and no hot spots (which would remove the dye totally in small spots). Unlike tapers in a lot of industrial applications OEM ball joints/spindles seldom if ever have 100% full height taper contact even though that would technically be ideal. Mark SC&C

[slowcamaro]

I guess this fits hear as well as anywhere. Mark, does Howe make a balljoint for 3rd gen camaros?