Interest Fades in the Once-Mighty V-8

[Rhino]

I saw this in the NYTimes today and found it intriguing. What's everybody elses thoughts on this?
GM just canceled a $300M program developing the next Gen V8. They're on their way out within Ford. The Dodge's are getting absolutely crippled by their DoD.

Are we a dying breed?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/16/business/16engine.html

DETROIT — The V-8 engine, long a symbol of power for American car companies, is sputtering.
At the Detroit auto show this week, Detroit’s Big Three are promoting smaller engines and alternative-fuel vehicles, eliminating the V-8 from many models and relegating it to niche status.
Ford Motor, which first popularized the V-8 in the 1930s, will start using a turbocharged 6-cylinder in many vehicles, including the next generation of its Explorer sport utility vehicle. The company has named its new engine technology EcoBoost, a nod to consumers’ concern for the environment.

“It’s pretty clear that the V-8 is on its way out of the mainstream,” said Ford’s chairman, William Clay Ford Jr.

General Motors recently canceled a $300 million program to develop a new V-8, citing new fuel-economy standards that require a 40 percent improvement in overall gas mileage by 2020. “That cancellation was a direct result of the 35-mile-per-gallon legislation,” Robert A. Lutz, G.M.’s vice chairman, said Tuesday.

[trapin]

Until something else can make the power of a V8 and satisfy the new C.A.F.E standards there will always be a need to have one in our truck lineup. It might go away in cars someday. But it all depends.

[oestek]

I'd post a rant, but you are the choir here...

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

please do...

[6'9"Witha69]

Let me just say, that the overlooked 4.8 would be a GREAT car V8. I know Truck guys who can average 21+ MPG without sacrificing doing 80+ MPH on the highway and "merging at speed". Imagine the abilities the 4.8 and 5.3 would have in a vehicle with 1,000 less pounds and better aero.

The V8 is dying, no way.

[Chad-1stGen]

Low MPG is what is dying and needs to die. V8's in sports cars and work trucks are not going anywhere IMO.

V8's in soccer mom SUV's and grandma's caddy, etc. What is the loss there?

[shortrack]

we better start hoarding them.......:)

[Rhino]

I realize that there will always be a market for a v8 truck, although if the trend in cars continues we will be left with very few vehicles that have an engine compartment large enough for a V8 swap. On top of this, the common consumer really doesn't care about front vs rear wheel drive.

Look to the modern Gen III/IV trucks as a potential swap. Without the LS1 thru LS7 intakes, there isn't anything from the factory that would fit under the hood of a common muscle car. Swaps become a lot more expensive at that point.

I realize that they can never take what we currently have, although I look forward 40 to 50 years and wonder what we'll be doing then. I fondly remember growing up with the sound of the V8 rumble and wonder what it would be like without it. Maybe it'll be a moot point at that time. We may not even be using any form of internal combustion at that point.

Maybe I just resist change to heavily :D

[WS6]

While there is nothing that can replace the feel or sound of a V8, please don't kid yourself and think you can't make more power with less cylinders. I think that is the way things will progress. Smaller engines using forced induction or simply being more powerful. 300hp V6s are common place today. Think about that just a little bit. A 300 hp V6. 15 years ago that was insane. Now it's reality. I'm sure/hope that there will still be some V8s out there, but smaller engines are doing a great job. Regardless of what they do, they need to get the MPG up on a lot of vehicles. I think it will take the buying public willing to accept a different lifestyle and vehicles not just engineering feets. Afterall, why build it if no one will buy it? Last time I checked we weren't a communist state yet. A company has to make a profit and must meet the demands of its customer base or the customers will not buy and the company will not stay in business.

[Young Gun]

we better start hoarding them.......:)

exactly what I was thinking :6gears:

[67SSDan]

Yeah... but I don't care how many HP's a V6 makes... I've never heard one that didn't sound like sh*t. LOL

This d@mn global warming BS is going to be the death of us... no pun intended.

[oestek]

My rant involves the news that the demise of the V8 is a direct result of the new CAFE standards... I think we all know there are better ways to improve the environment than penalize the automakers.

At the risk of sounding like a wacko, have you ever thought about the incredible waste Christmas trees are? We had a real tree this year... it was 21 years old. Think of the energy it took to plant it, grow it, the fuel used to cut it down, truck it to a lot, shop for it, haul it home, just to throw it out a couple weeks later. (I burned mine... I have video if anyone is interested.) Now multiply that by the zillions of people with real trees. You'd think the environmentalists would be all over the deforestation and waste of resources this is. But no, they push for legislation on adding another couple miles per gallon which could cripple a multi-billion dollar economy of parts makers, workers, aftermarket parts makers and retailers, and enthusiast driven retail and ancillary businesses by ending V8 production.

Just one more example of misplaced priorities.

I know, y'all think I'm crazy. I'm starting to sound like my dad!

- KO

[bigvegan]

It's just temporary.

Once everybody realizes Al Gore was wrong and global warming has more to do with sunspot activity than vehicle emissions - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/07/18/wsun18.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/07/18/ixnewstop.html

and once we stop taxing Brazilian ethanol at 54 cents a gallon, and get domestic switchgrass ethanol plants up and running, and get the new science to use algae to produce gasoline - http://news.softpedia.com/news/Gasoline-from-Algae-Will-Replace-Gasoline-from-Oil-46413.shtml

Then we can collectively tell the environmentalists and the Middle East to stop whining/suck it/get f-cked/ etc.

And then it will just be a matter of which of the Big Three buys out Nelson Racing Engines and starts dropping twin-turbo big-blocks into the entire product line.

I'm guessing 5-7 years.

Stay tuned.

[scogin918]

I love a V8 as well; have always had one wether it was in a truck or vehicle, but with vehicles like this on the horizon, I could get used to a 6-cylinder real quick.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=uGe_fyhQazg

[Fawkes]

The GT-R just does not excite me. It is a boring looking car. For that kind of money, I could think of a dozen cars that I would rather own.

[scogin918]

At $68K it performs just as well if not better than cars more than twice that price.

[redhead]

its time to face the future, the v8 is a dinosaur. its a heavy, overweight pig. ok some v6's tip the scales too but given the same construction techniques, apple to apples, the v6 is lighter and more efficient. the v8 has no place in 95% of all passenger vehicles it is currently utilized in given the potential of todays smaller powerplants. stout v6's and forced induction i4's could easily replace the majority of engines in the sport oriented market. thats if the US automakers stop pandering and taking the easy way out by just plopping a v8 into every "sports car" they produce. (don't even get me started on the 4500lb+ suv's)
it just might be time to consider what the world needs in terms of a global market with finite resources instead of confusing what we want with what we need. like our fathers, we have had it good, very good. maybe as good has it will ever get. consider our fortunate positions and step back a minute.
like most of you, I don't like it. we all love the rumble and the grunt yada yada. besides, performance always take the first hit. I think most of you remember the 70's, at least some of it.
"wham bam thank you maam"..
da.

[Rhino]

(don't even get me started on the 4500lb+ suv's)


To be quite honest, I don't know of many other vehicles that could benefit more from the use of a V8. It takes a massive amount of torque to get that much mass moving. A "peaky" 350+ HP V6 probably wouldn't make it accelerate as fast as a 300 HP V8.

Remember, HP is only a calculation. Torque is what gets the work done.

[6'9"Witha69]

To be quite honest, I don't know of many other vehicles that could benefit more from the use of a V8. It takes a massive amount of torque to get that much mass moving. A "peaky" 350+ HP V6 probably wouldn't make it accelerate as fast as a 300 HP V8.

Remember, HP is only a calculation. Torque is what gets the work done.Exactly!!

[Vegas69]

I understand trying to get daily drivers more fuel efficient it's the best thing for the world. Less padding in our enemys pockets and cleaner air to breath.
I'll tell you what pisses me off! I go to my mail box once a week and I can barely carry all the flippin junk mail! Think about every american getting that amount of mail in one week. How about cutting down a few less trees and stopping all this bull**** junk mail. We could all breath easier.

[protour73]

has anyone informed NASCAR of this, and the builders of SCCA Trans-Am cars, and Formula 1, and USAC Sprint car builders.....etc, etc???? my point is...as long as there is racing and aftermarket parts development for the V8....there WILL be a V8. rest assured.....V8's will be around longer than we will...thank god

[Damn True]

Repeat after me: Raising the CAFE standards won't work.


When the first CAFE standards were enacted during the Nixon administration the US imported 18% of it's crude and refined all gasoline within our own borders. The result of CAFE was higher mileage cars and Americans drove more and......duh.....consumed more fuel.

We have raised the CAFE standards a number of times and the result has been that we've gotten higher mileage cars and Americans drive more and.....duh....consume more fuel.

The very definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again while expecting a different result. That is what we are doing here.

Today, we import over 60% of the crude that we use here AND we import 18% of the gasoline. Yes, we use so much gas that our refineries cant make enough. Mainly because we haven't built a new one in over 30 years.

We need to drill more and we need to refine more. That (and more diesels in our vehicle fleet) is the only viable solution in the forseeable future. Write your representatives people.

[rob07002]

I saw this in the NYTimes today and found it intriguing. What's everybody elses thoughts on this?
GM just canceled a $300M program developing the next Gen V8. They're on their way out within Ford. The Dodge's are getting absolutely crippled by their DoD.

Are we a dying breed?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/16/business/16engine.html

Just consider the source. NYTimes = liberal media. They love pandering to their base.

I wouldn't get too excited.

[LateNight72]

This is why I plan to drive the Chevelle (once, done obviously) till I either hit the grave, or am arrested.

[Rhino]

has anyone informed NASCAR of this, and the builders of SCCA Trans-Am cars, and Formula 1, and USAC Sprint car builders.....etc, etc???? my point is...as long as there is racing and aftermarket parts development for the V8....there WILL be a V8. rest assured.....V8's will be around longer than we will...thank god

I completely agree with your point, although it can only be taken so far. In my thoughts the less V8's put into production reduces the number of sutible cars to swap them into.
If V6's and 4 cyls become more the norm in performance oriented vehicles engine compartments will shrink accordingly.

This also raises the "price of admission" to get your foot into this hobby. How much do you think a Gen III/IV small block Chevy would cost you if they weren't put into mass production. I feel they'd easily be at least another 50%, if not 100% more expensive. Economies of scale work heavily to our favor right now.

[LateNight72]

has anyone informed NASCAR of this, and the builders of SCCA Trans-Am cars, and Formula 1, and USAC Sprint car builders.....etc, etc???? my point is...as long as there is racing and aftermarket parts development for the V8....there WILL be a V8. rest assured.....V8's will be around longer than we will...thank god
http://www.leftlanenews.com/eu-calls-on-f1-to-switch-to-four-cylinder-bio-fuel-engines.html

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

F that.. as long as i have an F body... ill have an F'n V8.

[Beige]

If this happens, Japan will start hyping v8's like they invented them and take over that segment of the market too.

[megaladon6]

The very definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again while expecting a different result. That is what we are doing here

sounds like congress.:bananna2:

from what the article said they aren't getting rid of the v8, just not developing a new one.

[Texas Hotrod]

The death of the V8? I don't think so.
Whether you're talking about all-out performance or the capabilities of pulling a trailer, there'll always be a V8 involved. Would GM ever decide on putting a V6 into the Corvette lineup? NO!!! They haven't released the super charged Z06 yet, but it is on the way. Proof that V8s are alive, will always be alive, and have forced induction to boot.

In my area of the country, you see more trucks, Suburbans and Tahoes (I hate the freakin term "SUV") on the highways than any other vehicle (with Excursions and Expeditions in the mix). What do those vehicles have to propel them down the highway and pull trailer loads of hay out to the ranches??? A V8 (or a diesel), not some wimp-assed V6. As long as there are trucks, Suburbans and Tahoes (and Escalades and Hummer H-IIs, etc...), you can rest assured that the local salvage yards will have rows of powertrain pull-outs that we can swap into our ill equipped V6 project cars. Take it one step farther and look at all the aftermarket blocks, heads and crate engines that are produced from new castings. Edelbrock is now producing a 500hp supercharged crate engine. As long as there's a demand, industry will fill the need.

Not enough room in the ol' engine campartment??? How many of us here own welding equipment and can do our own fab work (and do it for others as well)??? It's no big deal to shape some metal and graft in a panel to make room for that bigger engine. What has been going on for generations will continue for generations. Look how big the V8 S10 marketing group has grown over the years. People are ditching 4cyl/V6 engines for V8s. That too is proof that people like us, don't apply to the nerdy bean counters. We are a unique group.

I for one agree that having a car that gets 25+ MPG is a good thing. A good way to save money while having to commute to work every day of every week. I can see where a tuna can with a 1liter turbo'd engine would benefit. Save that gas during the week and turn around and burn it all up (and then some) while cruising the streets in your big block V8 PT car on the weekends (and intimidating the geeks in the tuna cans).

The wife's Tahoe has a V8, my Chevy HD truck has a V8, as well as my C4 Vette, the Biscayne and my project Camaro. V8s have always been around and will be in the future. I plan to perform my conservative duties by brewing my own bio-diesel, as soon as I build by Cummins-powered 1968 Chevy C20 truck. On the down side, I can't decide what I should stuff my 702" GMC V12 engine into.

[andrewb70]

What's the big deal? Our hobby is a nitch, within a nitch. With the amount of SUVs and trucks being built these days it will take decades to run out of usable Gen III/IV engines. So they dropped the program to develop the Gen V, v8 engine. I bet the Gen IV platform out already planned for the next 8-10 years.

I am all for alternative power plants. Ford makes a killer turbo charged inline six in Australia. GM had great success with the Buick v6 in the Grand Nationals. What wrong with the idea of taking one of the new DOHC v6s and turbocharging that? As for the Corvette, that will probably stay v8 powered. However, in the grand scheme of things for GM, the Corvette is small potatoes.

Andrew

[MrQuick]

I second that.
GM has some very interesting alternative fuel vehicles being developed. Kinda excited to see what they come up with next...A full polycarbonate hydrogen fuel car and the Volt should spark interest.

Too early in the game to panic about the rumors of extinction of the V8.

[Damn True]

You are absolutely right Andrew. Both GM and Ford have fantastic little turbo diesels in the Euro and Asian markets. Why we can't get them here is beyond me.

[MarkM66]

My rant involves the news that the demise of the V8 is a direct result of the new CAFE standards... I think we all know there are better ways to improve the environment than penalize the automakers.

At the risk of sounding like a wacko, have you ever thought about the incredible waste Christmas trees are? We had a real tree this year... it was 21 years old. Think of the energy it took to plant it, grow it, the fuel used to cut it down, truck it to a lot, shop for it, haul it home, just to throw it out a couple weeks later. (I burned mine... I have video if anyone is interested.) Now multiply that by the zillions of people with real trees. You'd think the environmentalists would be all over the deforestation and waste of resources this is. But no, they push for legislation on adding another couple miles per gallon which could cripple a multi-billion dollar economy of parts makers, workers, aftermarket parts makers and retailers, and enthusiast driven retail and ancillary businesses by ending V8 production.

Just one more example of misplaced priorities.

I know, y'all think I'm crazy. I'm starting to sound like my dad!

- KO

That and all the electricity be used lighting christmas lights everywhere. And then most people get new lights every year....

[Jim Nilsen]

I saw in another thread the line, " all we need is a 300mpg car and the average will be safe for the Corvette"

GM has to put all of it's powertrain people trying to acheive just that!!!

I believe that if done right with what they have going they can come up with a car that can go 300 miles on a charge and a gallon of gas to run the generator. 200 miles is almost getting common for an electric car from other places using the same tech. Hydrogen is a big factor too!

What is going to be nice about what is coming up is that you will be able to power your house with the powerplant from a car and do it cheaper than the electric company can give you power for and if that fuel is hydrogen it will be more political than eliminating income tax:cheers:

The v8 is here to stay and as was said, they just said how they aren't going to engineer one anymore. With what they already have on tap I am not worried a bit and what will be trickled down to make it all more affordable will help our hobby a lot.

[scogin918]

The v8 is here to stay and as was said, they just said how they aren't going to engineer one anymore. With what they already have on tap I am not worried a bit and what will be trickled down to make it all more affordable will help our hobby a lot.

The last V8 was good enough for 50+ years. This new one should take us even longer into the future.

[BigAls87z28]

The "death" of V8 is not what is really news here. The news is that GM has tossed the replacement for the 20 year old Northstar away. That in itself is a story.
GM will move to make a smaller, lighter Corvette. Chrysler says that there is no more life left in the Hemi. And Ford is putting mony behind its turbo V6 motors that will show themselves over the next few years.
GM cutting its high tech V8 for Caddy, while its compeditors from BMW, MB, Lexus and now Hyundai have brand new V8's that have since surpased the once mighty Northstar.

[indyjps]

I think the V-8 may be on its way out, or at least a niche vehicle market with a heavy tax attached to it. This could be another angle the government takes. Want a V-8? youre going to pay very steeply for it. Then only sports cars (Viper, Corvette etc) would use one.

Trucks could all go to an inline turbo diesel, before you disregard this, think about what semi's run, look at hauling/towing vehicles in Europe.

[hectore3]

GM will have to keep a V-8 somewhere in the line up. At least in a Caddy that market segment demands it. And CAFE is always subject to change anyway. As far as fuel economy goes I believe it more to do with all the frigging weight modern car and trucks have put on than anything else.

They need to do a "Colin Chapman" and add lightness for once in the mainstream offerings.

[jaybee]

GM said V8s as well as rear wheel drive would be soon be gone for good back in the 1970s when they were developing their first generation of fwd cars. Look how that turned out.

[Yelcamino]

I understand trying to get daily drivers more fuel efficient it's the best thing for the world. Less padding in our enemys pockets and cleaner air to breath.
I'll tell you what pisses me off! I go to my mail box once a week and I can barely carry all the flippin junk mail! Think about every american getting that amount of mail in one week. How about cutting down a few less trees and stopping all this bull**** junk mail. We could all breath easier.

No kidding!!! I bet at least three days a week, I walk from my mail box directly to the trash can and toss everything I pulled out of the mail box! I can't stand junk mail! :banghead: I'd rather get spam email.