I now know why Ford lost 9 Billion dollars.....

[69CamaroRacer]

I went home for christmass this year and had the misfortune to rent a Ford Focus... and now I know for sure why Ford lost 9 Billion dollars.. What a piece of junk. the first think i noticed was that I was sitting in an endless sea of plastic, drivers seat was not designed for anyone over 5'5 as it would not go back and forced you to sit in a almost erect position, it was a gas hog, and last but not least it only had one 12 v outlet for your cell/accessories... and of course mine did not work..it just makes you wonder what they are thinking when they designe/ build these cars. If I was going to buy a car in that price range this car would not even begin to hold a candle to a honda Civic..

[EFI69Cam]

I went home for christmass this year and had the misfortune to rent a Ford Focus... and now I know for sure why Ford lost 9 Billion dollars.. What a piece of junk. the first think i noticed was that I was sitting in an endless sea of plastic, drivers seat was not designed for anyone over 5'5 as it would not go back and forced you to sit in a almost erect position, it was a gas hog, and last but not least it only had one 12 v outlet for your cell/accessories... and of course mine did not work..it just makes you wonder what they are thinking when they designe/ build these cars. If I was going to buy a car in that price range this car would not even begin to hold a candle to a honda Civic..

Thanks for the expert review.

[Restomod]

No car in that price range is a NICE car.....much less a beat rental.

[fast Ed]

Most of the Foci have a separate adjuster for the seat cushion height, which is sort of oddball for a domestic vehicle. Should have had a recliner too. If you didn't notice that, it would definitely be tough to get a comfortable seating position. Not sure what to say about the gas hog observation, other than maybe the car was beat on too much. The ones I've driven have been pretty decent on fuel ... close to 40 mpg (Imperial) on the highway.

Was this a new body style 08, or the old style 07?

cheers
Ed N.

[69CamaroRacer]

not sure on the year but it only had 22k miles on it....

[LowBuckX]

22K rental miles is about 100K owner miles...... The number one Car and driver Off road car of the year 20 years straight has been "The Rental car"

[Restomod]

The number one Car and driver Off road car of the year 20 years straight has been "The Rental car"

ROFLMFAO!!!!!

[justasquid]

The real reason why ford, and basically all of US automakers are loosing money is down right greed.

Lemme explain my take. I work for an automotive supplier and work I Reaserch and Development. We only suppy little things like brakes, hood latches, pedals systems, sensors.. the little things that make the cars.
We engineer them to last. Then, some Engineer at one of the BIG 3 will come back and say well thats good, now make it cheaper. So, it gets re-engineered, to be cheaper. Then they come back and say, good, now make it out of cheaper materials. So, it then gets made from cheaper materials. this goes on and on for months. Until in the end, they save a whopping 10 cents or so per part ".... This happens all over the supplier world for basically every part.
So basically, you end up with a car that cost about 100.00 less to manufacturer with all of "saved" money, but is a total piece of junk. Dont get me wrong, 100 bucks per car to the big company is a ton of money on the end, and thats how they look at it. But, with all of the items breaking under warranty, it doesnt pay to not spend the money in the first place.

I dont think anyone here would disagree with GM's sensor issues, especially in the transmissions, well anything electrical for that matter. These issues could be honestly cleared up with a 3-4 cent expense at the build of the vehicle. And its not that they dont know this. The big automotive companies put alot of stress on certain upper management members to come up with cost savings. And it looks great on paper, but in the end, its cost them a ton more.

I for one would rather buy a car that cost me 100 bucks more, but was made to last.

So, less cost to build a car with a inferior products equals. bonuses, better stock margins, promotions.... but..... years... somtimes months later equals. company loosing money, warranty cost too high, loss of customers, bad reputation..

anyway, sorry my rant. just my 2 cents... or maybe 5 cents...

[trapin]

Thank for the 2 cents....here's your 3 cents change.

First off...I wasn't aware that we (GM) were a company known for putting bad sensors on our vehicles. In the past 20 years I've never had one go bad nor have any of my friends and family members on their GM products. This is news to me.

And as far as corporate greed....is it greed or a company doing all it can to survive in an industry that is tipped heavily in favor of the Japanese auto makers. Every company has it's bad apples, and believe me....greed will find it's way into the ranks of Toyota and Honda soon enough. Hell, there's already signs of it starting as we speak. But good company's overcome....and I believe we have.

Ford has had their problems...like we all have, but they'll dig out of it. Just as Chrysler will too.

[69CamaroRacer]

Trapin...

Why doen't GM get rid of their Greedy unions and move down to somewhere in the South East where there are tons of people who would be happy to work for $15 an hour plus benifets ? If you goto places like mississippi and alabama there would be people lined up for that kind of money. I grew up in Detroit so I know all about the UAW and how they work and I have to say that they play a major role in the downfall of the big 3. Look at your competition, Toyota had record profets last year, they build cars in the US without a Union. They make a good product and sell a ton of them. I know that the big 3 can compete but it is just plain hard when you have a big greedy Union demanding more and more every time their contract comes up. There was a time and a place for a UAW but thoes days are past. I don't blame the workers but their leadership for the situation that is taking advantage of its union members and crippling the auto industry in the US. Just my .02c :usa:

[justasquid]

I certainly didnt mean to offend anyone with my opinion. If I did, I appologize.

But, this really is the way I see it.

There is a reason that the scales are so tipped in favor of foreign automakers.

Just one example, 1.35 million from of GMs trucks 1999-2002 recalled due to wheel sensor. That is only one of many recalls for sensor related issues. Just imagine, even it only cost GM $200.00 to fix each one, which it will probably be higher than that, your looking at 27 million dollars. do a search on google and you will see a ton of recalls pertaining to sensors.

I am a GM fan, always have been, probably always will be. I am a firm believer in buy made in the usa. But its very hard to swallow when you see things like this first hand. I really wish it was a different story. My own 01 bonneville has had 2 bad transmission sensors, 3 bad wheel sensors, the gas gauge doesnt work, the electic trunk doesnt work, the keyless entry doesnt work, the speedomoter quits, the tach jumps, I had to replace the power seat track.... this is just one car. All of this before the car hit 80,000 miles.

Again, didnt mean to affend anyone, its just an opinion that I have. I certainly didnt mean atack anyone personally...

[shudog]

I'm with Trapin. I drive domestic vehicles exclusively. 1st car was an 85 monte carlo I drove to 170K miles and it never needed more than brakes, waterpump, exhaust & tires. Currently driving a 98 Jeep Grand Cherokee with 168K miles and the damn thing won't die. Replaced the radiator, waterpump & hoses last year myself for very cheap parts. Day in & out, it's a good vehicle. People who complain about uncomfortable seats & stuff like that kill me. Whatever.

[streetk14]

I am a firm believer that you get what you pay for. The Focus is a cheap car and I'd expect the overall quality to reflect this. However, IF I was in the market for a lower cost compact car, I'd look to Honda or Toyota. The price is going to be a bit more than a comparable Domestic car, but again, I think you are getting something for that extra $$.

I love old American cars, but I'd have a really hard time buying a new Domestic car today. It's not that I think they are "crap", but the fact that for the most part they aren't offering anything that excites me. I'm looking forward to seeing the new Camaro when it comes out, because this is a new dometic car I would be interested in.

And to me, comfortable seats are a big deal as well as great handling, good looks and nice ride quality. I am a person who really enjoys driving, and the cars I buy reflects this. A great daily driver for me is a car that I am excited to get in and drive when I have to run to the grocery store.

Andy

[trapin]

I wasn't offended, squid...just throwin' my $.02 in like everyone else is. As far as the unions go....it's not that easy to just "get rid" of the unions. They are still a formidable force even at the numbers they're at today. I am in a small salaried union at GM. I had no choice, if I wanted to be a part of my department I had to join. It's not so bad, about $70 a month out of my pay (that sucks), but we have a great relationship with management.

I can tell you this, though....don't think that Toyota will always be non-union. Our Local President has heard from the UAW brass that Toyota's workers are not all hunky dory and that many of them from all of Toyota's U.S plants have approached the UAW. It started about a year ago and the chattering is getting louder.

And no....I'm not making that sh*t up either.

[69CamaroRacer]

Tarpin,

The fact that you had to join and that they take your hard earned money is what I am talking about it should be up to you ... and i'll bet you this.. if they workers at Toyota unionize toyota will close their plants here in the US and move them back to Japan.

p.s. comfortable seats are VERY IMPORTANT

[MrQuick]

If Toyota goes back they loose a lot of money. Building here helps them avoid a few bucks here and there.

[mikey]

I'll push my american cars and trucks before I'd drive a foreign car. Yeah I may have to put up with some recalls and fix some stuff before I think it should be worn out. But I look at it this way I'm making sure that someone else is getting to live at a decent level because what goes around comes around.

[shudog]

werd Mikey

[Boyd]

Your logic is flawed. Most of the "foreign" cars so many of you refuse to buy are actually built in the United States.

[surlyjoe]

I'm with Mickey. Justasquid you must have gotten a bad car and don't think for a second there aren't bad toyotas hondas etc. When millions of cars are built some are going to have problems. I have only had gm vehicles and I have had to replace sensors in fact 3 recently on my lt1 car. But all 3 sensors were just over 200 bucks which won't get you very far with most imports. Generally though my vehicles have been quite bullet proof and I beat the wheels off them. I have never been on the side of the road with a gm for anything other than a flat tire or out of gas. Both are usually my fault.

[trapin]

Your logic is flawed. Most of the "foreign" cars so many of you refuse to buy are actually built in the United States.
They're built here...but all the profits go back to Japan driving a stake deeper and deeper into the heart of America's economy. People don't get it....Toyota and Honda are not here to do America a favor by creating jobs. It doesn't matter how many plants they open here. They could give two sh*ts about this country. They're only concern is making money to strengthen their companies and to strengthen their economies back home. If the well ever dries up on this continent, they will flick us away like a dead house fly off a window sill.

The profits they make do nothing for our country. The profits the Big 3 make trickle down to everyone.

[Jim Nilsen]

OK , what do I do? I look at paying union dues just as if i was paying money to be in the country club, fraternity's, or any other good ole boy's washing of the hands. If you don't pay you don't play, that's what I have learned to realize after I started making more money paying union dues. Got a degree, your part of a club you paid to get in to. Went to a trade school, your part of something you pay to be in. Don't blame people who are just doing the best they can for today and getting away with it according to someone that doesn't do the job. I have always been qualified to do the job union or non union and don't really care as long as it is an honest days pay for and honest days work:usa:

But the big dilema for me that you guys are talking about is the Pontiac Vibe I own. Same as a Toyota Matrix basically and sold by Pontiac. I still bought GM and got a Toyota:naughty: . So did I still support the Japanese or the Americans ? Union -nonunion?

I see the future as an amazing regulated obstacle of failure for all of them with the way laws keep the money from being spent in the right places. Government has the car companies chasing down the wrong rabbit hole just to sell a car today much less a technological marvel that really can be built and are being fleet tested by one or another of all manufactures. When government finally sees the solutions that car manufactures have come up with things will change for the whole economy forever and it will cost the little guy and the big guy less to operate a vehicle. Less big money for someone? The car companies will benefit and the workers will benefit but the fuel suppliers will not and the demand lower prices. The need to have carbon tax will go down and all of the dreams these people have come up with will go away and they will have to find another cash cow. If they would give up on what it is going to be like in 15 years legally and just get their money out and change things with what we know now,15 years from now the statistics will be so radically different they won't be able to put fear into us the way they are now.

I almost thought about a Ford Focus when I bought the Vibe but they just seemed cheaper and were. I have never regretted buying the Vibe, it is a very responsive car and has been more economical every day I own it. I almost regretted buying a brand new car but the Vibe has not really lost any more value than the cost of a good used vehicle is per month and is more of a sports car than a daily driver. These cars really do handle better than one would give them credit for from first looks.

Only 2 problems with the Vibe in 37k is a disc got ate up in the cd player and a fuel pressure sensor at the gas tank. I got better mileage when the check engine light was on for 10 days and the sensor was bad :dunno: other than that it has been really easy to live with.

[hectore3]

All this talk about "greedy unions"? How about the immense compensation packages CEO's and other managers get? They receive these whether the company survives or not.

[Boyd]

They're built here...but all the profits go back to Japan driving a stake deeper and deeper into the heart of America's economy. People don't get it....Toyota and Honda are not here to do America a favor by creating jobs. It doesn't matter how many plants they open here. They could give two sh*ts about this country. They're only concern is making money to strengthen their companies and to strengthen their economies back home. If the well ever dries up on this continent, they will flick us away like a dead house fly off a window sill.

The profits they make do nothing for our country. The profits the Big 3 make trickle down to everyone.

And the average worker takes their trickle down profits in the form of a paycheck and then heads down to Wal-Mart - where nearly 90% of the products are from overseas. Or they go down to the local building supply and buy some power tools (most of which are made overseas) or maybe some lawn equipment (again, most of which is made overseas). They might want some new furniture, so they head down to their local furniture discounter, where most of the furniture is made overseas. New T.V.? Overseas. Appliances? Overseas. Need some new clothes? Most of those are made overseas as well. Fill your car up with gas? From oil imported from overseas.

Let's face it, America has become a consumer oriented economy. We no longer care where it comes from or who makes it, we just want it to be cheap, of decent quality, and we want it right now.

It's not right, it's just the way it is.

Personally, I don't lean one way or the other when it comes to vehicles. I decide what I want/need, and then look for the best product, for the best price. If it's American, fabulous. If it's not, better luck next time.

[GetMore]

Boyd, I think that if people had more money they would (possibly after a good ad campaign, but follow along with me here...) buy American and not spend money where it would go out of the country.
With prices going up like they have been, and incomes not going up much it is easy to get sucked into buying foreign crap. It helps people in the short run, but hurts in the long run. Unfortunately very few people look at the big picture.
There are many folks out there that wouldn't shop at Walmart, but they look at the prices and figure what harm will it do if they cave in-after all they are just one person, right?

Hectore3, you are correct in your impression that the big corporate muckety-mucks are part of the problem. If you think that the unions are not then you are wrong. I won't put too much of the blame on the union workers-I don't think they are the greedy ones, but the union itself is.
So, my summary: Management, be it corporate or union are greedy, money grubbing scumbags that are killing our country. The higher up they are the less they care about consequences to others.

[justasquid]

GetMore..., you are right..


but heres another thing.. Has anyone gone anywhere and actually tried to buy all made in the usa??. it can't be done. Try to find shoes, clothes, ....even food if you read it close enough.

its getting harder and harder to buy made in the usa. In fact, now the sly companies are realizing this and trying to fool you. I just read a label the other day. It said:"Distributed in USA" In big bold letters. No mention of China anywhere on the label. I had to go to the companies website, search for about 20 minutes only to find out it was actually made in China, then sent to the US, then packaged and sold as a Distributed in USA. what a bunch of BS

[Vegas69]

---

[Vegas69]

I agree with Boyd. When I set out to by a vehicle, I am going to buy what I want whether it's made in the USA or across the ocean. If you buy a vehicle just because it's made in the USA then you better start only buying American made products in every other aspect.
Toyota and Honda making cars here does help our economy in the areas that the plants exist. They have to pay taxes, they employ workers. It hurts Detroit but this is a free country where everone has the same opportunities. If Toyota whips GM so be it. I personally think GM is turning the corner with it's new products. The new GM trucks kick ass. The corvette is by far the best sports car for the money. The new malibu is actually good looking. The buick lineup is actually starting to be attractive. What GM needs is a brand that makes a young succesful guy like me want to buy there product. Cadillac has an old man or ganster rap image. Chevy has the kind of the old white couple in the midwest image. Buick well you know what image it has. No one drives GM cars in this town. The need to build a killer rear wheel drive sedan with a V8 or powerful V6. That is where GM is getting there ass whipped. They can't compete with BMW, Lexus, Infiniti. They don't make a product to do so. :thankyou:

[Restomod]

Can anyone tell me who makes a car (anycar) that is even 80% made in America?? Not! Most of the components are made out of USA! I try to buy "made in USA" when I can but like said above it is VERY hard to do.

[73z-6sp]

Oh boy...here we go again! heehee!

I will say it again...I've rented a lot of cars and the ones that always let me down in quality,comfort and efficiency are the Fords, and GMs. When I drive a "US Built" car and see quality that I would pay my hard earned money for, I will be most happy to sing it from the rooftops like some of you here do. Until then I will "send my money to Japan". I do agree that GM seems to be building some cool looking cars of late and I suspect that they are pretty nice in their own way. I just cannot get past my own personal experiences with them. Hopefully they prove me wrong soon...for their sake.

[shudog]

My family is heavily employed in all sectors of the auto industry. Dad worked for GM for 35 years, brother in law works for Honda in purchasing, brother works for 1st tier supplier, cousin designs transmissions for imports & Saturns. Bottom line, the domestic companies ARE at a disadvantage because they use union labor. The rules are changing, slowly, to allow them to be more competitive. Don't think for a second that Ford & GM don't know how to build a good car that can last forever though. Another thing to consider, the domestic auto makers have a commitment to UAW workers, their families, & the local cities. The import manufacturers build plants in areas where there is no other industry, so they don't have to compete for labor, can set wages as low as possible, and when the time comes, they will pull up stakes and move on to Mexico or China leaving those employees with nothing but a worthless 401K. That alone keeps me buying American.

[mikey]

I agree with what most of you are saying about buying made in USA. It is tough to buy american only. Heck my wifes fusion is based on a mazda 6 and built in Mexico. But at least the profits are coming back to Dearborn not Japan. I figure that is at least a little better. I also agree that there are some nicely built foreign cars they just aren't for me.

[Aceshigh]

Lemme explain my take. I work for an automotive supplier and work I Reaserch and Development. We only suppy little things like brakes, hood latches, pedals systems, sensors.. the little things that make the cars.

Thank you for your honest first hand experienced input.

The painful realization for many people is that you're not just some yokel with an opinion. You have an EDUCATED and first hand experience opinion that they (some being GM employees) have a hard time swallowing as being truth.

I for one agree with you on many of your perceptions having experienced some of GM's failings. I own all GM presently too.
I still try to have faith in them and their quality HAS improved.....so I've been holding on. Our newest acquisition was a Isuzu Ascender which is just a rebadged GMC Envoy and the ONLY reason we got it was the fact that it's the fastest depreciating vehicle of 2006.....so we got it for a steal. (highly rated on Edmunds too) However......35,000 miles and already after the first 1,000 miles of ownership we're having sensor issues already......pisses me off. I was singing praises about the comfort of this truck too when we got it. Still like it...but I mean....come on.... - I had to buy this www.autotap.com to log into the computer myself and see WTF was going on.

I did some research on Chevy Trailblazers too......for my brother....and man....the transmission and fan clutch issues
kinda deterred me away and I'm HOPING that our Isuzu sharing the same drivetrain isn't plagued by those issues.
Those prices tanked big time too on Trailblazers.



Let's face it, America has become a consumer oriented economy. We no longer care where it comes from or who makes it, we just want it to be cheap, of decent quality, and we want it right now.

It's not right, it's just the way it is.

Personally, I don't lean one way or the other when it comes to vehicles. I decide what I want/need, and then look for the best product, for the best price. If it's American, fabulous. If it's not, better luck next time.

Very Very well said. 100% agreed, and I couldn't have said it better.

[Paul69camaro]

Vegas69

I could'nt agree with you more. The sad realization is that alot of the components for the big 3 come from other countries, a lot from Mexico. My father sells welding equipment to the plants out in Mexico, this is how I know. Your "American" car is being assembled in the US but using a lot of foreign parts. The big 3 is not just in trouble due to slacking on quality. It's their retirement liability. GM’s total pension liability is over 100 billion. These companies are getting to the point where they will no longer be able to support their retired employees.

I used to be GM only, I refuse to buy any Ford due to their horrible engineering ethics. I've been lucky enough to own several different vehicles and I'll tell you, I won't buy a big 3 car anytime in the near future. As far as quality goes, GM has made awesome improvements but still has a long way to go. I do have to say that if Toyota and Nissan come out with diesel trucks, I'm in!

[steemin]

IMHO..The current sad state of affairs for the American auto manufacturer can be blamed on several different things. Clearly the unions and the leadership of the companies themselves must share some of the blame.
(They have made tremendous strides in the last several years)Beyond that I believe that American Auto companies are still unfairly paying for a dark period in our history (1973-1984). During this time they failed to reinvest and move forward in design and quality. Many people still believe that we produce junk compared to the offerings from Japan. I for one do not believe this to be the case. I understand that many of our parts and even some of our cars are assembled outside our borders. I also understand that the Japanese now operate factories in our country and hire our citizens to build their cars.
The primary reason we are in this current situation is that we have GIVEN the Japanese one of our largest industries on a silver platter.
If you don't believe that the Japanese have successfully executed a well thought out plan to take over as the worlds leader in automotive manufacturing there is clearly nothing I can say to convince you otherwise.. Furthermore if you don't believe that this has severely damaged our economy then I am wasting my time trying to convince you otherwise.
I for one refuse to be a part of this process.
I believe that we are at the point that we can either throw in the towel and
let the Japanese totally take over. Or we can finally draw the line and say enough is enough.
Buy American.:usa: :usa:
Scott

[79PonchoUK]

We have the Focus in the UK. Its easily comparable to a civic (nearly as reliable too), a golf (much better to drive and nearly as solid plus more reliable) and all french and italian cars.

Americans must get much better european and japanese cars than us - with the way they bash the 'domestics' which i have incidentally had just as much experience with as the foreign cars.

[trapin]

IMHO..The current sad state of affairs for the American auto manufacturer can be blamed on several different things. Clearly the unions and the leadership of the companies themselves must share some of the blame.
(They have made tremendous strides in the last several years)Beyond that I believe that American Auto companies are still unfairly paying for a dark period in our history (1973-1984). During this time they failed to reinvest and move forward in design and quality. Many people still believe that we produce junk compared to the offerings from Japan. I for one do not believe this to be the case. I understand that many of our parts and even some of our cars are assembled outside our borders. I also understand that the Japanese now operate factories in our country and hire our citizens to build their cars.
The primary reason we are in this current situation is that we have GIVEN the Japanese one of our largest industries on a silver platter.
If you don't believe that the Japanese have successfully executed a well thought out plan to take over as the worlds leader in automotive manufacturing there is clearly nothing I can say to convince you otherwise.. Furthermore if you don't believe that this has severely damaged our economy then I am wasting my time trying to convince you otherwise.
I for one refuse to be a part of this process.
I believe that we are at the point that we can either throw in the towel and
let the Japanese totally take over. Or we can finally draw the line and say enough is enough.
Buy American.:usa: :usa:
Scott

Amen brother. Next time your up in Detroit, look me up. There's a tall cold one with your name on it. :cheers:

[shortrack]

Ever wonder why the big 3 dont set up shop in Japan and sell to the Japanese home market like Toyota Honda etc do over here........???

BECAUSE THE JAPANESE GOVERNMENT FORBIDS IT!!!
Japanese law forbids a foriegn company from coming in setting up shop and selling anything to thier domestic market.......and if you want to import something be prepared for some of the highest tarrifs in the world......price out a Harley in Japan......easily double what we pay

that makes me want to kick all the Japanese manufactures the eff out of here until that policy changes.......the more I hear about them the more I hate them

[buickfunnycar.com]

After owning 5-6 Honda's over the years,I purchased a new '07 Focus when my last lease came due.
Since I work for Ford,it seemed like the right thing to do.
Only 6K on it now but it is a delight to drive everyday as my commuter.
I hope to drive the wheels off of it with very little issues...and as far as a comfortable seat...you couldn't ask for a better fit and I'm 6' and certainly not skinny.

[GetMore]

I agree with most of the recent posts.
Our trade practices and agreements (govenrmental and private citizens) are killing the country by sending money to other countries. (We are not the only ones doing stupid stuff like this, but we are the worst. Look into the "World Market" utilized by auto manufacturers-they all build where they get the best deal and to hell with the people.)
The Japanese government does an amazing job of protecting their industry.
We do not insist on being treated as equals when trading with other countries, we tend to let them walk all over us.

American manufacturers still have problems with quality, but so do the Japanese. The Japanese just don't have the reputation that the Big 3 have, so most people figure the problems are just fluke accidents and ignore them. (Though the customer service tends to be better at those dealers selling Jap cars and that also plays a huge part in people's attitudes.)

I have to admit that I own a foreign car and might buy a new one (probably will wind up with a used one instead), but that's because GM doesn't sell what I want here. If they did I would probably buy one from them.
What I want is a diesel car, and right now VW is the only one in my price range. VW has got some issues of their own that scare people away, so some of their fans are waiting for a Japanese diesel to come to the USA.
What I'd like is a nice, midsized car with a turbodiesel engine producing about 100 hp that can get over 40 mpg on the highway.
Unfortunatley for GM, I don't like the idea of buying the first or second year of any new designs, so I probably won't be in that initial rush to buy the new car, unless they bring over their European version drivetrains, unchanged. Those are already proven. Of course I'd expect to have to got to the dealer and supervise/help the technician that would wind up doing any work on the car, since most dealer techs wouldn't have a clue about diesels for the first few years. (Even VW still has this problem, some dealers don't bother keeping up with the changes and have used the wrong oil or not replaced single-use parts when doing work, and subsequently have caused major problems. If VW, a company that has sold diesels here for more than 20 years can't keep their heads out of their asses then I don't know how well GM is going to do.)

Something that may help GM is that they plan on taking back the dealerships (so I've heard) and making them GM run. This will allow them to better control the service offered to the public. Hopefully that service will improve. It will boost the company's profits a little and may even help the consumer. (Yes, I'm holding my breath.)

[bigvegan]

Maybe if we got national healthcare (you know, like the competition in Japan and Germany) we'd get better cars, as GM wouldn't be spending $1500 per car on retiree health benefits.

Oh, I know national healthcare is just a commie pinko idea, and that it doesn't work anyway, which is why the average Japanese person only lives to be 45.

Oh wait, the average Japanese person lives 3 years LONGER than we do, and that country has the longest life expectancy of any country in the world.

Hmmm, longer lives AND better cars. Sounds like a pretty good combo to me, but then again, I live in California.

[69CamaroRacer]

National healthcare ?? We have national health care now... it's called the VA hospital.. If you want to know what healthcare would be like if it was provided my Uncle sam just take a drive down to your local VA hospital and try to get seen... 6mo for an x-ray. Or look at our european brethren and see how good of care they have.. what ends up happening is you get sub standard care that takes forever and they only way you get good care is to grease someones pocket. I for one would like it if people would stop looking for a handout and start being more financialy responsible. No where in our constitution does it say that the government is here to take care of you. Protect you from forgine enemys and enforce federal law that's about it.. give you free stuff ??? It's not in the constitution that I studied in college.

[73z-6sp]

Maybe if we got national healthcare (you know, like the competition in Japan and Germany) we'd get better cars...

Hmmm, longer lives AND better cars. Sounds like a pretty good combo to me, but then again, I live in California.

Thank you! Their quality goes into everything they do huh? I wonder if that is government mandated as well? Oh well!... I also suspect they live longer on average because they dont eat like pigs the way we do!

[wiedemab]

I didn't read all of the posts, but I just thought I'd post a little love for my SVT Focus. I bought it new and I run the hell out of it - great little car.

As far as the rental Focus - the sticker on that car was probably around $13K. You don't get much for that. Last time I looked - a stripped down Civic was like $3-4K more. I know Civics are good cars, but there is a difference in price there too.

[andrewb70]

.....

I see the future as an amazing regulated obstacle of failure for all of them with the way laws keep the money from being spent in the right places. Government has the car companies chasing down the wrong rabbit hole just to sell a car today much less a technological marvel that really can be built and are being fleet tested by one or another of all manufactures. When government finally sees the solutions that car manufactures have come up with things will change for the whole economy forever and it will cost the little guy and the big guy less to operate a vehicle. Less big money for someone? The car companies will benefit and the workers will benefit but the fuel suppliers will not and the demand lower prices. The need to have carbon tax will go down and all of the dreams these people have come up with will go away and they will have to find another cash cow. If they would give up on what it is going to be like in 15 years legally and just get their money out and change things with what we know now,15 years from now the statistics will be so radically different they won't be able to put fear into us the way they are now.

......

Jim,

You bring up a very interesting point and I firmly believe that you are on to something here. People need to stop focusing (no pun intended...LOL) on the micro issues and look at things from a much broader macro perspective.

Who has the power?
Who is getting rich?
Who has influence?

I am originally from the USSR. I have lived in this country for 27 years and I think it is the greatest place on earth. However I am very sad and afraid for the future of this country.

Last year I was fortunate enough to go back and finish my degree. I sit in class with 20 and 21 year olds on a daily basis. The kids today are absolutely clueless. I guarrantee that kids sitting in college class rooms in China and India know how fortunate they are and they do all they can to get the best education possible. Not so here.

My appologies for going off topic, but in reality all of these issues are related.

Andrew

[streetk14]

I agree with Boyd. When I set out to by a vehicle, I am going to buy what I want whether it's made in the USA or across the ocean. If you buy a vehicle just because it's made in the USA then you better start only buying American made products in every other aspect.
Toyota and Honda making cars here does help our economy in the areas that the plants exist. They have to pay taxes, they employ workers. It hurts Detroit but this is a free country where everone has the same opportunities. If Toyota whips GM so be it. I personally think GM is turning the corner with it's new products. The new GM trucks kick ass. The corvette is by far the best sports car for the money. The new malibu is actually good looking. The buick lineup is actually starting to be attractive. What GM needs is a brand that makes a young succesful guy like me want to buy there product. Cadillac has an old man or ganster rap image. Chevy has the kind of the old white couple in the midwest image. Buick well you know what image it has. No one drives GM cars in this town. The need to build a killer rear wheel drive sedan with a V8 or powerful V6. That is where GM is getting there ass whipped. They can't compete with BMW, Lexus, Infiniti. They don't make a product to do so. :thankyou:


I couldn't agree with you more, my friend. This is bacically what I was getting at in my earlier post. I'm not biased based on where a vehicle was built or where their manufucturer is based; It's all about the cars.

I think GM is starting to come out with some better (or at least more appealing) products. However, I am also young and successful and want more than average transportation. That is where GM and Ford are lacking. There is just nothing out there to compete with BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Infiniti and Lexus. Cadillac is trying to get a piece of the sport-sedan market, but just can't keep up with the Germans and Japanese.

Andy

[shmoov69]

I haven't read thru all these, but AMEN on this one!!
Also, what has the government touched that they haven't screwed up? I am going to go back into lurk here since I don't want to get political, and it could go that way really easy. LOL!:geek:


National healthcare ?? We have national health care now... it's called the VA hospital.. If you want to know what healthcare would be like if it was provided my Uncle sam just take a drive down to your local VA hospital and try to get seen... 6mo for an x-ray. Or look at our european brethren and see how good of care they have.. what ends up happening is you get sub standard care that takes forever and they only way you get good care is to grease someones pocket. I for one would like it if people would stop looking for a handout and start being more financialy responsible. No where in our constitution does it say that the government is here to take care of you. Protect you from forgine enemys and enforce federal law that's about it.. give you free stuff ??? It's not in the constitution that I studied in college.

[streetk14]

I haven't read thru all these, but AMEN on this one!!
Also, what has the government touched that they haven't screwed up? I am going to go back into lurk here since I don't want to get political, and it could go that way really easy. LOL!:geek:


HaHa, that's why I'm staying out of the political side of this debate. This thread was pretty much about how the original poster thought the Focus was a POS. Not that I think you guys are wrong about the unions and American greed, it's just something I'll stay out of.

Andy

[steemin]

Amen brother. Next time your up in Detroit, look me up. There's a tall cold one with your name on it. :cheers:

You are welcome...
Again it really concerns/amazes me that most people do not realize the impact that this is having on our economy.

I like to use the following analogy:
If your brother owned a grocery store and he was struggling to make ends meet...
Would you go buy your groceries from someone else if your "perception" was that they offered better quality and or value?

Scott

[73z-6sp]

.

I like to use the following analogy:
If your brother owned a grocery store and he was struggling to make ends meet...
Would you go buy your groceries from someone else if your "perception" was that they offered better quality and or value?

Scott

Depends. Is my brother a jerk who looks for people he can pay the least amount of money to for stocking his shelves? Or does he buy the least quality food products all in the name of fattening his wallet? If so, then yes...I would buy my groceries from someone else if their foods were supposedly better quality.

I know...I know...:getout:

[steemin]

Depends. Is my brother a jerk who looks for people he can pay the least amount of money to for stocking his shelves? Or does he buy the least quality food products all in the name of fattening his wallet? If so, then yes...I would buy my groceries from someone else if their foods were supposedly better quality.

I know...I know...:getout:

Okay then lets buy all our cars from a country that surprise attacked us without provocation, on our soil 60 years ago killing our soldiers ,cilvilians and severely damaging our naval capabilities.
You decide which is the lesser of two evils.
There is to much at stake here for me to play nice...
:usa: Scott

[dipren443]

Okay then lets buy all our cars from a country that surprise attacked us without provocation, on our soil 60 years ago killing our soldiers ,cilvilians and severely damaging our naval capabilities.
You decide which is the lesser of two evils.
There is to much at stake here for me to play nice...
:usa: Scott

Without provocation huh??? There is significant evidence to show that the US was complicit in allowing Pearl Harbor to happen to pull us into WWII.

Also, many of these so called American built cars have a huge percentage of components built offshore. Many are even manufactured and assembled in Mexico. We live in a global economy now and it is a fact we have to face. This whole issue is a tangled web... Why do we not do more manufacturing domestically??? Well lets see, American companies can't AFFORD to build a factory, employ workers, and pay a competitive wage whilst still making a profit.

Its not just the auto industry either. Look at where almost all of the textile industry products come from... Japan doesn't worry me anywhere near as much as China does. At least Japan generally has good business practices and ethics. China on the other hand...

Ehh, lets see how long this thread lasts...

[EFI69Cam]

Without provocation huh??? There is significant evidence to show that the US was complicit in allowing Pearl Harbor to happen to pull us into WWII.



Yes and there is also significant evidence that the CIA killed the Kennedys and the Chupacabra exists.

[shmoov69]

What is the Chupacabra? Is that like bigfoot or something? LOL

[73z-6sp]

N....m...

[Tom Welch]

The Chupacabra is what screwed up the Ford Focus. And Bigfoot cant fit into one so he is irellevant to the discussion.

[CarlC]

Thread closed.

[TonyL]

National healthcare ?? We have national health care now... it's called the VA hospital.. If you want to know what healthcare would be like if it was provided my Uncle sam just take a drive down to your local VA hospital and try to get seen... 6mo for an x-ray.


Takes me 5 minutes. *My* VA hospital rocks. Sees me in less than a week and provides excellent care. Just because you heard one sucks doesn't mean they all do.

Thread still closed.