engine combo for 87 Suburban toy hauler

[shortrack]

not much traffic in the misc engine section so I'll try here.....
Im sick of my 6.5 diesel and the whole 95 3/4 ton Sub it comes in......not enough power and too expensive to fix for a truck that is NOT a daily driver and sits around waiting to tow my boat and assorted toys......like $600 to replace a front wheek bearing "assembly" c'mon!.....injection pumps, pmd's......dont get me started

so Ive decided to go old school and picked up a mint southern US 87 Suburban(we love that platform) and flog the 95.....the 87 is fully loaded and has a tbi350 and turbo 400......paid $3100.....in stock form it will NOT have enough guts to pull the boat......being an 87 up here it will not have to e test so my idea is to convert it back to a carb and do some old fashioned hot rodding to increase power....budget for the whole truck is maybe 10 or 12gs including wheels/tires and a cheap black paint job......you can easily fix these trucks yourself!

my question is a good motor combo for torque......stick with the smallblock, bigblock would be nice but much easier/ cheaper to put a smallie in where one came out......not fool with A/C (that works great) etc.....plus I already have the 350 for a rebuild core and a BB is 200lbs heavier.

one shop quoted me 4gsfor a 383......325hp/370tq vortec heads cost on the distributer and carb.......another shop $3445 for a 406 from a 400 using the heads off my motor......work out something for a distributer and carb.......another cheaper option would be to just rebuild the 350 and put an Edelbrock performer cam/intake/carb on it.....my buddy did this in his 81 Grand prix where he took out the 267 and swapped in a 350 with this kit and that car WORKS.

Any suggestions on which way I should go?......any combos you guys can suggest or have had experience with?

the first pic is my truck ....the second is how Id like it to look when Im done.....thanks for listening

[LMDGUY]

Wouldnt you be better off doing a diesel conversion, like a cummins or durmax. A customer of my friends just purchased a durmax and trans for $7k said he found it online at a wrecking yard.

[bbcc]

Go with the 406 short block from the one shop. Ditch your old heads and go with a set of the edelbrock e-tech 200's. This is a vortec based head meaning you will need a vortec intake, but it gives you the chamber style of much more expensive heads. The relativly small ports will make the 406 pull like a champ. With the 64cc chambers you will need a piston like the kb-168 which has a 22cc dish. With the d-shaped dish this will promote excelent flame travel and will give you a static compression of 9.5-9.6:1 (depending on the head gasket and piston to deck height you go with) . The only downside is that you need to run a 5.7" rod. There just arn't as many options for pistons with the 5.565" rods. This compromises ring land strength, but with such low compression and low rpm's you won't hav a problem. As for a camshaft go with something around 220-225* at .050. This will provide a ton of torque, decent idle, and the ability to run a stock converter. But a 2000 rpm stall like the holeshot from b&m would work nicely as well.

Just for giggles I ran this combo in dd2000. I tried a comp 12-238-2 and a 12-242-2 (which are both hydraulic flats) and with a 650cfm carb and a dual plane through a full exhasut you are looking at 387 - 390 hp, and 430 - 422 lb.ft respectevly. Of course if your budget allows, go with a hydraulic roller of similer duration. Peak hp occured at 5000-5500 rpm (the curve was flat across) and peak torque happened at 3500 rpm. The torque curve was really flat across the entire rpm range with 410 lb.ft available at just 2000rpm, and didn't start to fall off untill 4500 rpm. All that twist makes pulling loads from a stop or passing at high way speeds no issue at all.

If you can fit an overdrive trans into your buget, it's definitly worth it. This engine could be built for $4500 but that depends on wether you can source out the parts and assemble the engine or if you pay your mahcine shop to do the work for you.

Hope this helps

cheers bbcc

[SatisTraction]

i am running a TPI conversion in my 85 chevy truck. it would have plenty of power to pull any boat you got it geared right. I would put a 480 tranny behind it.

[fishtail8]

I second the 4L80E swap behind whatever you put infront of it. I use an 83 CC dually with a big block and 4L80E. I knocked 1000prm off the highway rpm, and it pulls everything with the converter locked in O/D. Another vote for a 406 too...

[THX 138]

I thought banks had a kit to make teh GM 6.5L diesel a turbo.

[shortrack]

Wouldnt you be better off doing a diesel conversion, like a cummins or durmax. A customer of my friends just purchased a durmax and trans for $7k said he found it online at a wrecking yard.

I want to build this truck for cheap as it will only be used a dozen or so times a year......Im all over diesels......diesel and cheap cannot be used in the same sentence......did you know that ONE fuel injector for a dmax is $740 from GM.....for a 6.0 from Ford is $660!!!......basically it boils down to you are terrified to own any of these modern diesel trucks off warranty......the Dodge maybe but you have to get the newest ones to get any cabin space at all.....once you own a Sub its hard to go an xtended cab.....thanks, doug

[shortrack]

Go with the 406 short block from the one shop. Ditch your old heads and go with a set of the edelbrock e-tech 200's. This is a vortec based head meaning you will need a vortec intake, but it gives you the chamber style of much more expensive heads. The relativly small ports will make the 406 pull like a champ. With the 64cc chambers you will need a piston like the kb-168 which has a 22cc dish. With the d-shaped dish this will promote excelent flame travel and will give you a static compression of 9.5-9.6:1 (depending on the head gasket and piston to deck height you go with) . The only downside is that you need to run a 5.7" rod. There just arn't as many options for pistons with the 5.565" rods. This compromises ring land strength, but with such low compression and low rpm's you won't hav a problem. As for a camshaft go with something around 220-225* at .050. This will provide a ton of torque, decent idle, and the ability to run a stock converter. But a 2000 rpm stall like the holeshot from b&m would work nicely as well.

Just for giggles I ran this combo in dd2000. I tried a comp 12-238-2 and a 12-242-2 (which are both hydraulic flats) and with a 650cfm carb and a dual plane through a full exhasut you are looking at 387 - 390 hp, and 430 - 422 lb.ft respectevly. Of course if your budget allows, go with a hydraulic roller of similer duration. Peak hp occured at 5000-5500 rpm (the curve was flat across) and peak torque happened at 3500 rpm. The torque curve was really flat across the entire rpm range with 410 lb.ft available at just 2000rpm, and didn't start to fall off untill 4500 rpm. All that twist makes pulling loads from a stop or passing at high way speeds no issue at all.

If you can fit an overdrive trans into your buget, it's definitly worth it. This engine could be built for $4500 but that depends on wether you can source out the parts and assemble the engine or if you pay your mahcine shop to do the work for you.

Hope this helps
cheers bbcc

I wont be building the engine.....I like the sounds of that combo.....I'll run it by the guy......thanks!.....are you a professional engine builder?......I used to live in Edmonton.....159th street!

[shortrack]

I second the 4L80E swap behind whatever you put infront of it. I use an 83 CC dually with a big block and 4L80E. I knocked 1000prm off the highway rpm, and it pulls everything with the converter locked in O/D. Another vote for a 406 too...

I thought a 4L80 was a computer controlled trans.......how do you get around that?

[strangler]

Keep the TBI. Freshen it up with a set of flat tops and a 327/350hp cam (.447 I&E/ 222 dur) Fresh valve job on your stock heads. Give the guys at affordablefuelinjection.com a call for a chip to match your cam and compression specs and that engine will suprise you.

DEEP GEARS!! As you said, your not driving it everyday, so pickup a SRW 14 bolt out of just about any 3/4 or 1 ton from 73 up. Many of them have 4.10's or 4.56 stock and will bolt right in to your truck. Don't pay more than $100 for one, as they are cheap to free in most circles.

DEEP GEARS AGAIN if you want the stock 700R4 to last. Yes a 4L80E would be nice, but stand-alone controllers are not cheap. Gear it to the point that nothing really has to work very hard (4.56's and 33's-35's).

[MarkM66]

I thought a 4L80 was a computer controlled trans.......how do you get around that?

You buy the stand alone computer that runs it.

I'd suggest building a peanut port bbc. If you want the most low end torque for your buck.

[shortrack]

I thought banks had a kit to make teh GM 6.5L diesel a turbo.

my truck came stock with a turbo.....not enough power in stock form......i got a 4" exhaust, intake mods, increased boost.....its better but to really get power it will need a custom chip....$$$.....then your risking the big bang.....a diesels unloaded gas milage is usaually pretty good.....but loaded they really fall off in my and my friends experience.....gas is much less of a difference......always kind of chitty:)

[fishtail8]

I thought a 4L80 was a computer controlled trans.......how do you get around that?

I bought a Compushift controller through Bowtie Overdrives last year http://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/catalog/catalog_inc/viewitem.php?ITEMID=372

Back then the dollar wasn't like it was today to it cost me about $1400 for the electronics. I got the handheld control with it also, so I can adjust enough parameters in the trans so I like it... but can't wreck it. I'm sure you could use a stock trans and converter with no problem, mine had allready been gone through with better parts and a better torque.

[fishtail8]

I thought a 4L80 was a computer controlled trans.......how do you get around that?

I bought a Compushift controller through Bowtie Overdrives last year http://www.bowtieoverdrives.com/catalog/catalog_inc/viewitem.php?ITEMID=372

Back then the dollar wasn't like it was today to it cost me about $1400 for the electronics. I got the handheld control with it also, so I can adjust enough parameters in the trans so I like it... but can't wreck it. I'm sure you could use a stock trans and converter with no problem, mine had allready been gone through with better parts and a better torque.

IMO, the O/D makes the truck nicer to drive when not pulling a trailer too... What's with the Edmonton guys on here anyways?... We're everywhere!!!

[bbcc]

What's with the Edmonton guys on here anyways?... We're everywhere!!!]

Gotta rep E-town................sorry, I had to:)


I wont be building the engine.....I like the sounds of that combo.....I'll run it by the guy......thanks!.....are you a professional engine builder?......I used to live in Edmonton.....159th street!

I'm not a professional engine builder, but (don't mean to be arrogant) I've been recognized as the best young engine builder in canada....twice. Iv'e worked in a couple shops in town. School put an end to that. I've been very interested in engines since I was young (I guess I'm still pretty young in comparison). This is actualy very similar to a 383 I was planning to build, but that blasted tuition bill popped up and killed that idea. I have built a 355 that was a lower budget version with worked vortecs and a smaller cam, and it is very suprising how a simple combination with attention to small details can make good power per doller. I forgot to mention that this combo should run on 87 octane, 89 on those really hot days. As long as your builder pays attention to the piston to deck height and keeps the quench area as small as possible, but no smaller than .045" with hyper pistons.s

Good luck with the build and keep us updated on how things are going.:twothumbs




cheers bbcc