My Wayne Due C5 frame is cracked

[streetk14]

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif (http://imageshack.us/?x=my6&myref=http://imageshack.us/)



I just noticed this today, and I'm glad I did.

I was quite happy to get the car back on the road (after having it down for a supercharger project), and took it for a little drive this weekend. I noticed the frontend had a little shimmy and didn't quite feel "right".

When I got home, I glanced at the right front tire and noticed that it appeared to have a bunch of negitive camber. So, I opened the hood to take a look at the upper control arm bolts. I was surprised to find the whole upper control arm mount nearly broken off the frame rail. I'm not sure how or why this happened. I have not been doing any hard cornering in the car lately, and have not hit anything.

I just upped the power of my motor a good amount, and it is putting down 505 hp and 470 tq to the rear wheels on the dyno. The torque curve is impressive and I'm sure it's putting some strain on the chassis, but I wouldn't think it would cause the frame to break like this. I have been doing a lot of full-throttle blasts lately, but don't know if that has any relation to my problem. The only other thing I can think of is that maybe there was a bad weld that slowly got bigger until it finally let go.

Most likely, I'm going to get a new, bare subframe from Art Morrison (AME) to replace this one. Most of my C5 parts will swap over, so the cost shouldn't be too bad. I'd like to talk to Wayne about having it repaired, but I'm not sure if he can be reached these days. What do you guys think?

Andy

[streetk14]

I just took another look at the subframe. and it appears that the driver's side UCA mount is starting to do the same thing. It looks like it is starting to lean towards the motor (it should be vertical) and I think the weld is cracked on the outside. So, why did this happen to both sides?

Andy

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

you were doing too much of this..
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

ahahaha


nah thats pretty scary tho.. i thought they were much tougher than that.

[rickk]

fix it sh.....t happens. it will be as good new.
rick k:firefire:

[BRIAN]

That has nothing to do with your HP. Wayne is good guy and was still answering emails.

That control arm mount sure looks like it needs a brace to me but the again what do I know.

[JMarsa]

That's a classic example of what my welding intructor has told me. That the metal around the area of the weld will fail before the weld.

I agree though. Disassemble and rebuild it it gussets.

--JMarsa

[CarlC]

Bummer Andy! It's not like you haven't been fighting enough problems.

I'd take a hard look at every other welded component on the frame.

[streetk14]

Bummer Andy! It's not like you haven't been fighting enough problems.

I'd take a hard look at every other welded component on the frame.


Yeah, as soon as the motor gets tuned/dyno'd the subframe breaks. It figures.....

[g-roadster]

Looks like a poor weld. An inexperienced MIG welder will lay down a nice looking bead with no penetration of the base metal. The penetration is only in the bracket not the frame. I would grind the weld out and TIG weld the bracket and add some bracing. I would be suspect of all the welds by this welder. A good MIG weld is as strong as a good TIG weld, but poor TIG weld is generally better than a poor MIG weld.

[deuce_454]

what g-roadster said... also there seems to be ample room to reinforce it once you have repaired it, the design looks a little half-assed to me... so a triangullar gusset to tie tie top ot the controllarm mount to the outside of the frame will also reduce the bending stress on that weld and should prevent future faliures...

[Hidro]

The spacers look like 1"+ ? it doesnt look like the mounting points were designed for that much alignment shims.

Whats up with the spacers? Mounting points that far off? wheel clearances? Just curious.

It should have gussets reinforcing there anyways.

just my 2c

[HILROD]

It looks like the weld didn't fail, but the rails in the heat effected zone. The rails themselves look kinda thin. If Wayne doesn't have a fix for you You'll need to reweld and plate or gusset all around the mounts for the control arms. I'd also suggest all you guys with the same subframes to check into this. Suspension failures like this at any speed can and will kill.

[hotrdblder]

thick spacers are to dial in static camber setting, as he welded uca mount on inside of the tube which on tubing is the weakest spot, if i were you i would cut the bracket off, and get it inthe middle of the frame rail, and adding 3 gussets to the back to add some triangulation to it.
then to get it to aligmnent shop just measure how far you moved bracket out and take that amount off the blocks, ame's new frame has 1/2 spacers , but theres is gusseted also.
try to keep uca bracket in same position on rail as any movement forward and back will mess with caster, if it were me i would get a caster camber gauge and weld the bracket on with no spacers, and with the exact setting i would want caster and camber wise,
if you do this go for 3-5 degrees caster, and 1 to 1.5 degree static camber,
jake

[CarlC]

Yeah, as soon as the motor gets tuned/dyno'd the subframe breaks. It figures.....

How did that go?

[streetk14]

How did that go?


Ended up with 505 rwhp and 470 rwtq. The torque curve was very flat, and the power and driveability are great. The intake air temps were on the high side, so a methanol injection system is really what is needed for the boost I'm running. I was told that we could add another 4 degrees of timing (with the meth), which should be good for another 50 rwhp and probably just as much torque. I don't think I really need that extra power right now, as it is losing traction in 2nd gear at any speed :) . You didn't see the dyno video? Check out the project updates thread.

Andy

[streetk14]

thick spacers are to dial in static camber setting, as he welded uca mount on inside of the tube which on tubing is the weakest spot, if i were you i would cut the bracket off, and get it inthe middle of the frame rail, and adding 3 gussets to the back to add some triangulation to it.
then to get it to aligmnent shop just measure how far you moved bracket out and take that amount off the blocks, ame's new frame has 1/2 spacers , but theres is gusseted also.
try to keep uca bracket in same position on rail as any movement forward and back will mess with caster, if it were me i would get a caster camber gauge and weld the bracket on with no spacers, and with the exact setting i would want caster and camber wise,
if you do this go for 3-5 degrees caster, and 1 to 1.5 degree static camber,
jake


Yeah, it looks like it really needs some gussets on the UCA brackets. Take a look at the AME frame, and that is exactly what they did. I will most likely not be dealing with fixing this frame and putting it back in my car. If Wayne doesn't want to fix it, I'll most likely sell it as-is for someone else to mess with. I don't think it will take much to be better than new.

And yes, the spacers were to get close to the proper alignment settings. Then I fine tuned them with the shims you see. I personally aligned the car, and I think I had around 6 degrees of positive caster and -1.25 degrees of camber. It seemed to be a good setting and drove nicely. I was also keeping an eye on tire wear, and had yet to see any inside edge wear from the negitive camber.

If anyone is interested in the frame, let me know. I'm going to try to get started removing it today.

Andy

[MuscleRodz]

Typical type failure for TIG welded joints. Suprised to see it in a mild steel joint. I see this all the time with chromoly 4130. Heat zone is too small without being pre-heated and post heated to normalize the weld area and will temper the metal right next to the weld. If the weld area is not normalized, it will crack and fail right next to the weld every time.

Mike

[hotrdblder]

that is not tig welded

[MuscleRodz]

Meant MIG or TIG, same scenario. MIG welds are even harder than TIG making it worse.

Mike

[hotrdblder]

i hear ya, but in this case its obvious why it broke, not the weld, the upper mount needs to be gusseted. plus there is no need to put the uca mount that far back on the rail when needing the spacers like he did, wayne did not spend alot of time designing his frames, he made them work, and that they did

[MuscleRodz]

i hear ya, but in this case its obvious why it broke, not the weld, the upper mount needs to be gusseted. plus there is no need to put the uca mount that far back on the rail when needing the spacers like he did, wayne did not spend alot of time designing his frames, he made them work, and that they didAll true.

Mike

[Beach Cruiser]

If your serious about unloading it, I might be interested.

[Zed]

Looks like a design flaw to me. I don't think the c4 version from wayne will ever have this problem because of the coil bracket gusset.

Gusset it and be done with it.

[newby]

i've got other pics of his frames... somebody welded that one up wrong.

the other pics I have have the plate mounted to the OUTSIDE of the frame rail with 3 gussets going from the top of the bracket towards the inside of the frame.

that is the main reason for all the spacers and the carnage. with as much force as that mount sees, that plate never had a chance.

[HWY Nova]

Hey streetk14....

Santa Barbara? I live in Santa Ynez, but I work in Goleta.

I'd like to see your car someday!


--Eric

[JEFFTATE]

Where's Wayne ?

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

picking strawberries..
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[dcozzi]

I would figure there would be some triangiulation on that plate. Seems like a design flaw. It is a leverage point, right?

Cut it off and weld it up proper and it should be good as new.

[MrQuick]

I just took another look at the subframe. and it appears that the driver's side UCA mount is starting to do the same thing. It looks like it is starting to lean towards the motor (it should be vertical) and I think the weld is cracked on the outside. So, why did this happen to both sides?

Andy
Well after getting the suspension together it looks like the frame broke due to suspension bottom out.
The supplied coil overs that were run pn 5855 are listed for the rear suspension use, compressed height is 11 5/8" and with a 10" spring caused the shock to bottom out. At ride height there was only 1 3/4" +/- .25" of available travel.

Judging by the evidence of corrosion near the failed section part this most likely happened before you bought the car and just got worst after extended use. The arm mounting extension blocks didn't help much either. All the mounting problems where changed after this early design.