70 RS clone

[Twentyover]

Hiya All

Relative newcomer, have posted a few time before. Building an ’84 el Camino in the burbs of Detroit MI. Older brother came to me a couple weeks ago whining, “I finished my car (69 Camaro, 454, TKO, 12 bolt), buy me something to work on this winter” Told him to find me a good cosmetic 2nd gen F-body, and we’d talk.

He called my bluff, so now I have a 70 RS clone (ZZ4, Turbo350, 10 bolt peg-leg) for him to work on in Portland OR this winter while I continue the Camino. He’s pulling and detailing the ZZ4 & engine compartment, and I’ve got a TKO ordered up, along with a Lee PS quick ratio box and a bunch of other stuff that will (a) keep him busy (and out of my hair) this winter, (b) get the car prepped for a cross country run from OR to MI., and (c) end up with me having pretty much the car I wanted when I was 16. The el Camino will then rank as the car I wanted when I was 30. Sadly, there’s not much that I want now that I’m 50. Except the cars I wanted when I was 16 and 30.

Anyway, back on point. Car currently rolls on 15” RS wheels and crap tires (we’ll see if we can eliminate most of the tread between Portland and Pontiac.) These will be replaced latter on with something with a wheel size more appropriate to performance capability.

My interest is in improving handling and occasional track days. Not really interested in designing the ultimate track suspension, basically looking for bolt-ons and ways to screw the existing parts together better. Not afraid to spend some coin, but the object is handling improvement, not to see if I can hit the limits of my Visa card. Also remember I live in MI, home of the frost heave, and bad road patching technology.

Looking for any suggestions. Won’t take them all, don’t be offended if I ask why you are suggesting something. Trying to understand why I am doing the things I do.

Thanks in advance.

[MrQuick]

Hi, welcome to the site.

2nd gen Camaros out of the box are very good handlers and can be made even better with very little work. Tighter shocks, beefier springs, huge sway bars, bigger brakes, subframe connectors, firewall bars and sticky tires.

No need for expensive subframes or link suspension with your projected use.

Try a search on Mary and David Pozzi's red 2nd gen. Everything you would need and I imagine they would recommend where to put your money. Heres a good thread to get you started. https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29572

[NOT A TA]

Sounds like you're looking for something similar to what I did to my 70 Firebird.
I used a group of suspension pieces developed by Hotchkis for a 71 Camaro they built years ago. They now market the pieces as a package I believe is called a TVS (Total vehicle system I think). It comes with springs, swaybars, tierod adjusters etc. They also sell Bilstein shocks they recommend to use with them.

I also used Global West Del-A-Lum aluminum/delrin control arm bushings, subframe connectors, offset upper control arm shafts, and Energy Suspension body & subframe mount bushings.

Then I measured up the wheelwells and put some wide sticky (DOT legal) tires on. 17" wheels with Yokohama tires. The car sees street, HPDE Road Track days(2-3 weekends a year), and Drags (with 15" drag wheels and tires. Its fun to drive and doesn't rattle your teeth and eyeballs out on long highway drives.

[Skip Fix]

Global West bushings-A arm andf subframe, mid 80s deisel S-10 front springs, 70s Trans Am 1 1/4 front sway bar, 5/8 " rear bar and factory springs(if not sagging). Bilsteins all around.

[Lowend]

The biggest tricks to getting the 2nd gen to behave is bracing the chassis... the best solution I have found for this is The PT-Fbody Stop-Flex kit
http://www.pro-touringf-body.com/chassis_components.html
It is night and day difference to replace the subframe bushings and get the connectors and firewall braces in.
From there your key to a successful track-day car is brakes... namely big rotors with lots of airflow. Even the massive 13" rotors of the Bear "Track" system can get pretty mushy after a few hot laps at Laguna Seca. There are a lot of kits out there, but you need to chose wheels before brakes

[Twentyover]

Thanks for the input so far. I've looked at Pozzi's 2nd gen site- I thought i had the tall spindles.

Skip fix- pretty specific, eh?

Lowend- The car has subframe connectors- how does the aluminim subframe connectors affect ride? After all, it's not exclusively a track day car. Will for certain get the G-bars.

Closets local tracks are a small club track (Waterford Hills), Grattan, and Mid- Ohio. Waterford is probably too small for a V8, not much room to stretch legs- Grattan has some elevation changes that make it cool, and has more running room, but will need more brake.

Thanks again all for the input

[Lowend]

The solid subframe bushings don't really effect ride

[68Formula]

The solid subframe bushings don't really effect ride

2nd it. I upgraded just the mounts and the ride was the same before and after. The handling however, was like night and day.

[Marcus SC&C]

I have to agree that stiffening the chassis is job #1. These cars were really flexible flyers. I`ve had 8 of them and chassis stiffening is one of the best mods I did to any of them (especially the T top cars!).
Good springs and shock are next. The rear springs have a bad tendency to sag over time. Hotchkis springs work well for performance street use. DSE and GW also make good springs for it. You really can`t go wrong with any of them. Bilstien shocks are great for your intended use,get those too. Konis are also fine. Don`t cheap out on shocks! The Bilstein or Koni direct replacement shocks will be too soft,especially in rebound for serious track use but they ride great (especially the Bilsteins) and handle good on the street.
The front end geometry is pretty decent as is but they respond really well to a good performance front end alignment with -1/2* camber and more + caster (say +5* to +5 1/2*). It makes them both drive and handle better. It`s hard to do with stock upper arms, they usually won`t allow enough adjustment (not enough room for shims on the rear stud). We have adj. arms to fix that at a reasonable price. You can upgrade to a StreetComp package that duplicates the modified geometry recomended by GM for SCCA TransAm racing if you like. A good set of bushings is also a good idea. Most aftermarket arms will come with them. Stock or delrin for the lower arms. Avoid poly.
There`s no need for aftermarket swaybars. The factory already made bars as big as you`ll ever need for anything and they`re still available at salvage yards and on eBay etc. for cheap. Get a set of F41 or WS6 bars and call it good.
You`ve got the steering box covered. Excellent choice,you got the best.
You can get a lot more carried away with coil overs,link/coil over rear suspension etc. but it sounds to me like you just want a simple car that`s a solid performer and the above will do that nicely. Mark SC&C

[Lowend]

So Mark - when you gonna start making some chassis braces?

[SHANE 73Z]

So Mark - when you gonna start making some chassis braces?

Amen!

I have been beating on Dave from PT Fbody about a rear shock tower brace that would also fix stripped upper shock mounts:pat: I know there would have to be some metal surgery but thats OK.

What else do you have in mind Lowend?

Shane

[Lowend]

The rear shock tower brace would be a big one... maybe something to go out from the tranny tunnel to the subframe on the inside of the pass compartment.

[70camaro406]

The biggest tricks to getting the 2nd gen to behave is bracing the chassis... the best solution I have found for this is The PT-Fbody Stop-Flex kit
http://www.pro-touringf-body.com/chassis_components.html
It is night and day difference to replace the subframe bushings and get the connectors and firewall braces in.
From there your key to a successful track-day car is brakes... namely big rotors with lots of airflow. Even the massive 13" rotors of the Bear "Track" system can get pretty mushy after a few hot laps at Laguna Seca. There are a lot of kits out there, but you need to chose wheels before brakes

Thanks for posting that link. I think that's where I will be getting most of my stuff now. Killer prices and parts look high quailty.


I have to agree that stiffening the chassis is job #1. These cars were really flexible flyers. I`ve had 8 of them and chassis stiffening is one of the best mods I did to any of them (especially the T top cars!).
Good springs and shock are next. The rear springs have a bad tendency to sag over time. Hotchkis springs work well for performance street use. DSE and GW also make good springs for it. You really can`t go wrong with any of them. Bilstien shocks are great for your intended use,get those too. Konis are also fine. Don`t cheap out on shocks! The Bilstein or Koni direct replacement shocks will be too soft,especially in rebound for serious track use but they ride great (especially the Bilsteins) and handle good on the street.
The front end geometry is pretty decent as is but they respond really well to a good performance front end alignment with -1/2* camber and more + caster (say +5* to +5 1/2*). It makes them both drive and handle better. It`s hard to do with stock upper arms, they usually won`t allow enough adjustment (not enough room for shims on the rear stud). We have adj. arms to fix that at a reasonable price. You can upgrade to a StreetComp package that duplicates the modified geometry recomended by GM for SCCA TransAm racing if you like. A good set of bushings is also a good idea. Most aftermarket arms will come with them. Stock or delrin for the lower arms. Avoid poly.
There`s no need for aftermarket swaybars. The factory already made bars as big as you`ll ever need for anything and they`re still available at salvage yards and on eBay etc. for cheap. Get a set of F41 or WS6 bars and call it good.
You`ve got the steering box covered. Excellent choice,you got the best.
You can get a lot more carried away with coil overs,link/coil over rear suspension etc. but it sounds to me like you just want a simple car that`s a solid performer and the above will do that nicely. Mark SC&C

Thanks Mark for that very informative info. I think I'll use my sway bars from the donor '79 Z28 that I got them from. They're thick! What do you think of GEN II Racing Products from the link posted above? I want to make mine handle awesome while still using factory style components, i.e. leaf springs, coil springs, GM rear, etc.

Great info guys, from everyone.

[Twentyover]

Just wanted to thank everyone for their input here. I'll ponder on this some, then start buying parts. Think i'll probably follow Pozzi's line of thinking, but stick with the softer rear springs and bias it more toward a street car. Spent a pile of money the past month for a 5 speed to replace the T350, and an FI system for the car. think I'll start nickle and diming the bank account so SIGOTH won't notice (since I've already exceeded the budget I gave her)

[zman1969]

The biggest tricks to getting the 2nd gen to behave is bracing the chassis... the best solution I have found for this is The PT-Fbody Stop-Flex kit
http://www.pro-touringf-body.com/chassis_components.html
It is night and day difference to replace the subframe bushings and get the connectors and firewall braces in.
From there your key to a successful track-day car is brakes... namely big rotors with lots of airflow. Even the massive 13" rotors of the Bear "Track" system can get pretty mushy after a few hot laps at Laguna Seca. There are a lot of kits out there, but you need to chose wheels before brakes
wonder why they dont make them for firstgens? I remember someone(Herb Adams maybe) that did these on a firstgen wayback and they evidently worked so good that the mounts to the firewall wallowed out the holes and kinda messes that area up and they had to reinforce that area- any ideas here? guess best area to attach to is upper fender mount holes via a plate or something ....