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derekf
08-18-2004, 01:48 PM
Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir? (Page 1)
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who makes a real nice polished but functional power steering remote resevoir? pics? thanks! also looking for a cooler, but i think CarlC's looks real nice, its on his site
firebird website

RFR
Registered User
Posts: 165
(7/18/04 10:07 pm)
Reply Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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Are you looking for a custom one?
Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

zbugger
Registered User
Posts: 1583
(7/18/04 10:10 pm)
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Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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I know it's not polished, but you can get it done. Try this one.

KSE reservoir (http://www.racehome.com/productofthemonth.htm)

Also, DSE has an inline cooler that Tony Huntimer is using on his car. I think I may too when I get along that far on my car.
- Allen

yody
Registered User
Posts: 268
(7/18/04 10:20 pm)
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Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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well it doesn't have to be super custom just something with the correct AN bungs in it, hopefully a nice cap that seals good, obvioulsy alumium, and whatever baffling is necessary for it to work good. billet specialties makes a nice looking one, but it is like $130 without the cap!!!! and who know if it works any good?
firebird website

yody
Registered User
Posts: 269
(7/18/04 10:26 pm)
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Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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i like the KSE unit but am not too fond of the hose clamp mountings!! would have to have some kind of mount tigged to it
firebird website

RFR
Registered User
Posts: 166
(7/18/04 10:34 pm)
Reply Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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What pump are you using? What's your shift RPM?

I do my power steering resevoirs like a mini dry sump tank, where the return (typically -8 ) enters the tank in the side, making the fluid swirl. Then a cone bottom with -6 (typically) outlet.

Any mounts you need, too, so you don't have to run cheesy hose clamp mounts.

Any diameter/length you want....maybe $120-$150...depends on what you want.
Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

Edited by: RFR at: 7/18/04 10:35 pm

yody
Registered User
Posts: 271
(7/18/04 10:57 pm)
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Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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probably a LEEs remote resevoir saginaw pump, 6500 max rpm, sounds nice but a little expenisve, would that include polish?
firebird website

RFR
Registered User
Posts: 167
(7/18/04 11:16 pm)
Reply Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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No, but you might not want it polished after you see it, unless you have a polished-theme.

That would include a mount welded on, designed by YOU. Also includes a vented cap (Ron Davis or ProWerks), unless you want to vent it via a -6 line out the top.

How about this...

3" diameter x 8" tall (including cone bottom)
-8 return on side of tank
-6 outlet
Ron Davis -16 cap
mount tab(s)

$110

You're not stuck with the above, just wanted to get you a semi-accurate price. Remember, this IS custom!

If you want to buy a less expensive piece, I can still weld a mount on that if you want. $30 or so. It all depends!!

Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

yody
Registered User
Posts: 274
(7/19/04 12:53 am)
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Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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i understand it would be one of a kind hence your costs. i appreciate the great deal and offer. i will have to think about it, i don't know much about how to make one of these work, seems like the KRC one works pretty well, is your design similar? you are right about maybe not want polishing, just seemed like a nice piece to polish if i was going to, but not a must, are you in CA? how do the vented caps work? are they sealed with an o ring, and then somehow vented? thanks!
firebird website

DB Z28
Registered User
Posts: 66
(7/19/04 4:56 am)
Reply Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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I have a KRC on mine I polished it and welded a bracket a bracket to the backside mounted it on radiatior support on a second gen.

yody
Registered User
Posts: 279
(7/19/04 12:24 pm)
Reply
Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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pics?
firebird website

RFR
Registered User
Posts: 169
(7/19/04 4:28 pm)
Reply Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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Me? Nope. Sorry, but after some unfortunate luck with floppy discs, I'm left with very few pictures of stuff I've built...Hopefully the few on my website will give you an idea of quality though. I can send CAD drawings if you'd like.
Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

CarlC
Registered User
Posts: 203
(7/19/04 6:33 pm)
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Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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I took the car today to Willow Springs and ran six 20-minute sessions in 102* heat with zero power steering issues. The tires? That's another story.

The nice thing about the KSE setup is that the filter is built-in. In-line filters are available but I could not figure a clean way to make them work for me.

Tony H. has some KSE info on his website. I took his lead on this part.

Lee's can also make reservoirs to your specs, but like most of his products, they are not for the light-of-wallet. His parts do WORK! If you decide to use his dry P-pump it will require a minimum -10 return line.

I would suggest staying away from the reservoirs from companies that make street rod parts (i.e. Billet S.) Most of these parts do not have the necessary baffling and swirl/anti-aeration characteristics that are needed for a track driven car. Some are just plain garbage. KSE, Canton, and Lee's are great parts.

Yeah, mine has hose clamps, but the car has been through several itterations so some things I did not want too permanant. One of these days I'll weld a permanent bracket on it.

Try to keep the main pump feed line as short as possible. Mine is too long.

http://www.geocities.com/casanoc


Edited by: CarlC at: 7/19/04 7:05 pm

yody
Registered User
Posts: 282
(7/19/04 8:54 pm)
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Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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sounds good, i will keep looking and might take RFR up on his deal, but want to see whats out there.

RFR
Local user
Posts: 196
(8/4/04 10:37 am)
Reply Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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Quote:
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The most common power steering problem in racing is due to collapse of the suction hose which supplies the pump from the tank. This hose should be -10 size and carry a vacuum rating of 28 inches of mercury. Only a few types of pressure hose are also built to withstand suction; on most ordinary hoses the liner will eventually be sucked partially or completely shut, causing the pump to cavitate. Pump cavitation causes instantaneous loss of power steering along with tremendous fluid overheating. Assuming the correct hose is used, the principal causes of cavitation in race cars are (1) header heat (2) routing the suction hose through a high loop, which can create an air pocket and interrupt the flow of oil to the pump inlet (3) mistakenly installing a filter on the suction side of the system, and (5) fuel cell foam or other restriction in the reservoir.
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Taken from here (http://www.woodwardsteering.com/powers.htm).

I thought that was interesting, and probably usefull for you guys who are building high-ish rpm motors. I still think a good remote resevoir is important, but never thought the suction line would pull THAT much vacuum!! Something to keep in mind for sure.

If some of you don't know, you can buy "springs" that slip inside your braided stainless (AN) hose. I'm not sure where to get it though. The springs are commonly used in suction lines in dry sump systems. I have seen these lines colapse on the dyno with no springs in them. Granted, the dyno operator was shooting for 30" of crankcase vacuum!!!! (sucked the rear main before getting there though.)
Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

yody
Registered User
Posts: 349
(8/9/04 12:56 pm)
Reply Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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Hey RFR i am stuck between taking you up and having you make a resevoir(how long to make it?) and the KSE unit, the one thing that looks nice about the KSE unit is that it has a built in inline filter, whadaything? where is a cheap place to get a KSE? thanks
firebird website

davidpozzi
Moderator
Posts: 1276
(8/9/04 1:08 pm)
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Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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I just "fixed" my Sweet remote reservoir.
Here is what I did:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/power_steering_remote_rese.htm
It hasn't been on a track yet but looks like it will work OK.
David
67 RS Camaro, 69 Camaro vint racer, 65 Lola T-70 Can-Am vint racer.
ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/

CarlC
Registered User
Posts: 219
(8/9/04 1:29 pm)
Reply
Bad memories!
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That picture of my old pump brings back a lot of memories David. Have you fully recovered yet?

Nice job on the mods.

The KSE part is around $135. Their website has a list of vendors by state.

http://www.geocities.com/casanoc


RFR
Local user
Posts: 217
(8/9/04 2:02 pm)
Reply Re: Bad memories!
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David and Yody:

What David did to that poor Sweet tank is almost exactly what I do from the start, except:

I use a cone bottom, which accentuates the swirl and (from what I've read on fluid dynamics) will help keep the aeration down to a minimum. The cone bottom will also prevent vortex's from forming.

The reason that you want fluid like this to swirl is that as the fluid is swirling at a reasonable velocity, the air is actually "flung" away from the fluid. I don't know if angling the inlet up will help that at all. If the inlet is perpendicular to the tank, the fluid will naturally go downhill, and the air will naturally rise. Also, in this application, I think that the inlet should just have a straight bore, rather than a venturi or angled ID. The idea is to disturb the fluid as little as possible. The more disturbance, the more possible aeration becomes.

Now, as far as putting the inlet above or below the fluid level...I'm not sure, but my initial thoughts about that are that if you have aerated fluid coming into the tank from the pump, do you really want to mix that fluid with the fluid in the tank? I'd rather see it enter the tank above the fluid level to give it a chance to deaerate (is that a word???lol) before mixing with the rest of the fluid in the resevoir.

David, I'm not putting down your work at all...hey, it worked, right? I'm just wondering if we can design the better mousetrap and be able to give everyone a better working (and looking) power steering resevoir.

And, hey, if there is any kind of interest in this, I could probably get the price down to UNDER $100, as long as all the mounting brackets stayed the same. (Universal...god I hate that word)

So, Yody, how would you feel about running a fuel cell-type roll over valve to breathe the power steering resevoir? It'd add to the price, but would look a lot better than having a hole in the cap, and would cut down on the mist associated with said caps. Just thinking out loud.





What say ye?


Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

Edited by: RFR at: 8/9/04 2:05 pm

yody
Registered User
Posts: 350
(8/9/04 6:07 pm)
Reply Re: Bad memories!
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sounds good, i think a good mount would be the clamp type made out of solid aluminum. the kind that billet specialties uses, on their catch cans and types, then the mounting part is flat and it all screws together to make a tight fit. i can use aluminum hollow rod to space it away from the radiator support. how about an inline filter? is that possible? I really don't want ANY fluid spraying or misting out of the cap so whatever we can do to keep that down
here is a pic of the mount i am talking about

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

you can see the bracket it uses i think it is 2 pieces and screws together throught the back
the one in the pictures go for $125, and they "supposedly have baffling" but i am sure yours would work much better, maybe we can get some more input into what would make a better resevoir, also would polishing be an option?
firebird website

Edited by: yody at: 8/9/04 6:25 pm

CarlC
Registered User
Posts: 220
(8/9/04 6:21 pm)
Reply
Tanks.
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Matt,

I now wish I had taken the time to disassemble the KSE tank.

The KSE part has the -6 return on the bottom of the tank, centered, pointing up. The filter is in the bottom of the tank. The filter I believe must be a center-in perimeter-out type pleated element. Given this arrangement I wonder how good the swirl could be especially if the filter is pleated and small in diameter? How air bubbles might co-mingle as they slow near the filter medium is another story. I'm just thinkin' out loud here.....

The outlet is also low on the tank, maybe 1/3 up from the bottom of the tank. There could be many things happening inside depending upon construction techniques, baffles, fluid routing, etc. I really wish I had taken mine apart.

According to KSE the fluid level is supposed to be approx. 1" below the top baffle, or about 2" below the top of the tank (bottom of cap neck.)

I'm all for trying to come up with a slick tank/filter/cap/mount, especially one that does not weep.

I could not find a nice mount for the KSE part, instead it uses a universal part that required some *******izing. It's functional, but not sanitary.





http://www.geocities.com/casanoc


davidpozzi
Moderator
Posts: 1277
(8/9/04 8:58 pm)
Reply
Re: Tank
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RFR,
I did this tank mod to learn what is going on and experiment, luckily I had two of these tanks laying around anyway since I bought two Sweet pump kits. The tank is way too thick and rough a surface, they actually painted it with silver paint! I managed to shine it up a little with a lot of work, but it's never going to look all that great up close.

I thought of a dry sump type tank, but a dry sump really really puts out the volume, and it's got a LOT of air mixed into the oil, since it scavenges air along with the oil from the pan with two stages. I made a dry sump system for my race car and was amazed at the foamy mess it puts out back to the tank. I was afraid a PS tank made like a dry sump tank might introduce as much air as it took out or that to do it right the tank might have to be much bigger.


The PS system in my opinion is not going to have much air in the oil it if you don't create a situation to cause the oil to foam in the tank or lines. I don't think the PS box or pump will create much air or foam at all. I have read articles saying you want to slam the return oil into something to "break up the bubbles" Perhaps the cap inside the tank was supposed to do this, but I think it caused a lot of the foaming since it was too severe.

I agree you don't want to do anything to stir the oil up a whole lot on re-entry to the tank. I think if the return were dumping in above the fluid level, it would cause a lot more splashing and might cause some aeration. I thought if I angled it tangent to the tank sidewall it would be good if the oil swirled around the tank gently and would probably improve the cooling contact with the walls. I was a bit afraid of the oil getting sucked right back into the pump before mixing well with the rest of the oil, or if there were any bubbles in the oil that there was no way to get them all to the surface in a positive way while keeping them away from the tank outlet. I then thought of angling the fitting upward just a little to cause an upwelling of the oil while swirling, but not enough to cause a whirlpool. I reamed a widening taper in the outlet fitting which slowed the oil stream and hopefully calmed things down a lot inside the tank. The only reamer I had to do it was a mechanics hand reamer with T handle, I removed the handle and chucked it in the tailstock of my lathe, I had to back it out and clean it quite a fiew times before I had a large enough taper.

I tested the fitting with a water hose, but the stream just shot straight out and didn't follow the taper, but when the fitting was in the oil, I left the level low enough to watch it and it slowed the flow and ran full. the taper was just under 3/8" ID to just under 1/2" ID over about two inches length.

A lot of this is probably over-thought or wrong but I think after fooling with this tank, that any system with no bad restrictions and a good cooler would work fine.

I've had experience with farm equipment hydraulic systems and tanks but the tank is usually larger and they have a baffle between the return line and outlet, the oil usually remains in the tank for four minutes, (rule of thumb) before cycling back to the pump, so it's 4X the pump GPM = tank volume.

I'd like to see the cap have some baffling in it, right now it just has a pin-hole in it that I drilled. It does seal well since it has an O ring type seal to the tank.
I take no offense at any comments or suggestions, just offering what I did so far for what it's worth.
David
67 RS Camaro, 69 Camaro vint racer, 65 Lola T-70 Can-Am vint racer.
ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/

Edited by: davidpozzi at: 8/10/04 4:55 pm

yody
Registered User
Posts: 351
(8/9/04 9:27 pm)
Reply Re: Tank
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i had the same feeling about putting the inlet above the oil line, seems like the constant "splashing" could creat a bunch of bubbles, i like the idea of a inlet at an angle, what if you had the hole in the side of the tank and put a tube sticking in the tank with an angle cut in it away from the middle of the tank, so the incoming fluid was forced to the outside wall of the tank, make the inlet tube angled downwards so the fluid will hit the wall and spiral down. Also what are the chances of some kind of "screen filter" would that be too restictive i know some fuel pumps have a 45 micron metall screen built in them, but i wonder if it would be too restrictive when using 'oil" probably so, a filter is not a must be would be a nice filter, could always call KSE and ask them what kind of filter they are using
firebird website

CarlC
Registered User
Posts: 222
(8/9/04 9:39 pm)
Reply
Filter
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Lee's offers a super nice inline filter . It's an aluminum part with -6 in/out. John has a picture of it on his website:

http://www.geocities.com/torkerscamaro/torker.html

GM still sells in-line filters with a metal case and slip-on hose connections.

I'll bet that the KSE filter is just an off-the-shelf part. It shoud be easy to adapt.

http://www.geocities.com/casanoc


davidpozzi
Moderator
Posts: 1279
(8/9/04 10:03 pm)
Reply
Re: Filter
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Here is one I found at a local auto parts store:
http://www.magnefine.com/
It's not pretty but has some very nice features.
David

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2004/08/Filter_with_text-1.gif

67 RS Camaro, 69 Camaro vint racer, 65 Lola T-70 Can-Am vint racer.
ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/

Edited by: davidpozzi at: 8/9/04 10:15 pm

RFR
Local user
Posts: 220
(8/9/04 10:11 pm)
Reply Re: Filter
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Well, after spending about 30 minutes on a reply, I hit the "Add Reply" button, and it sais, "Some fields are missing." So I go back, and my entire reply is GONE.

F*ck it, I'll reply tommorow.
Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

davidpozzi
Moderator
Posts: 1280
(8/9/04 10:19 pm)
Reply
Re: Filter
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RFR,
I hate when that happens!
David
67 RS Camaro, 69 Camaro vint racer, 65 Lola T-70 Can-Am vint racer.
ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/

JL8Jeff
Registered User
Posts: 41
(8/10/04 12:31 pm)
Reply Re: Filter
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This is some good reading on this subject guys. My 68 with the 94 LT1 engine in it is aerating the fluid badly after about 1-2 minutes of driving time. I put in a new LT1 ps pump, new return hose, new fluid and it's still doing it. I'm thinking the problem is the ps reservoir that the previous owner had somebody make for him. The return inlet is pretty far up the reservoir and sticks straight in more than half way. I think I'm going to try the LT1 F-body remote reservoir since it seems to work on those cars.
69 Z28 JL8 4 wheel disc brakes, crossram - being restored, 91 Chevy SS454 pickup, 68 Camaro LT1/4L60E with 4 wheel discs

yody
Registered User
Posts: 360
(8/10/04 12:55 pm)
Reply Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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talked to KSE today, the guy talked pretty fast but this is what i got from him, they use a Baldwin Hydraulic filter/semi truck pwr steering filter, it is stainless steel mesh with a filter media. The inside of the tank is just that; a tank. they say the only baffle is at the top of the tank, so it doesnt' spray fluid or help starve the pump when going around corners, but they say the filter really prevents spray. Sounds like nothing special, seems like whatever we design will be much better. the guy was pretty nice, their number is;
18004433562
i like the idea of a cone shape with some kind of angled inlet to make the fluid naturally combine with the sitting fluid reducing aeration, i also think the inlet should be just at the heigth of the existing fluid, there shouldn't be a drop? maybe we could get ahold of one of these filters?
firebird website

RFR
Local user
Posts: 222
(8/10/04 2:44 pm)
Reply Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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I don't have enough time to reply to everything right now, but, Yody (or whoever), how would you feel about splitting materials with me and we'll just try a few different designs? (After some more discussion maybe).

I'm probably gonna screw around with some cardboard and a garden hose to see what changes do what.
Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

yody
Registered User
Posts: 362
(8/10/04 2:49 pm)
Reply Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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works for me, are we splitting the profits too? whadaya think about the filter?
firebird website

davidpozzi
Moderator
Posts: 1282
(8/10/04 4:51 pm)
Reply
Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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RFR,
Water, with it's much thinner viscosity didn't act like the oil much at all when I tested the reversed nozzle I made.
It would be great to simulate hot oil flow by using a cold oil that is thinner. You could simulate tank oil flow that way, but as far as testing for foaming or bubbles, you probably need a whole PS system.

Nothing like a fiew laps on a track to test things!
David
67 RS Camaro, 69 Camaro vint racer, 65 Lola T-70 Can-Am vint racer.
ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/

Steve68
Registered User
Posts: 721
(8/11/04 3:52 am)
Reply Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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I'm also interested in the tank, A good substitute would be vegatabe/cooking oil to simulate flow thicker than water, I'll keep reading, Steve

RFR
Local user
Posts: 223
(8/11/04 12:08 pm)
Reply Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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Yody, concerning the mount: Are those pictured available seperately? If not, Pro-Werks makes nice bottle mounts, but they're a little expensive. Pro-Werks bottle mounts (http://www.pro-werks.com/detail.php?name=STANDARD+BOTTLE+MOUNT) They are $37.95 or $39.95 depending on size, and if you're really nuts and want to mount it to a tube in your chassis, the tube mounts are another $37.95. The only problem is that I couldn't make them for less than that.

I really think that an inline filter is going to be the best way to go. It will most definately cut the cost of the resevoirs down, (ofcourse, then you have to buy a filter and two additional hose ends), and a filter inside the resevoir will disrupt any swirl or flow that we're shooting for here. Remember, inline filters go in the low pressure side!! ALLWAYS.

Regarding having these polished: You'll have to have that done yourself. I haven't found a polishing shop local to me that I've been happy with (I'm VERY picky). Besides, I don't do enough of it to get any kind of price break, so no sense in paying me to have it polished for you!

Regarding the cap: I really am not sure about that. On cars that I've had free reign with, I allways use one breather tank, usually on the firewall. I then vent everything to that one tank, which is mounted as high as I can get it. So, the valve covers, power steering, water (if an open system), etc. all vent into that tank. It completely iliminates misting, but adds cost to the car.

I still wonder if a roll over valve will eliminate misting? I also wonder if it would look weird! lol I think that you're gonna have misting with a vented cap, no matter what.






CarlC, you again hit on the thought that a filter inside the tank would disrupt any swirl we create. However, it's sounding to me that the KSE resevoir doesn't have any swirl built into it. With that kind of filter element, it seems to be that they're banking on the fact that as the fluid comes out of the filter, it's velocity has been significantly slowed so the fluid just basically sits in the tank. I'm not sure how to describe what I'm thinking. Sorry.

There seems to be two schools of thought in regards to where to put the inlet on the resevoir vertically. Should it be above or below the fluid level? Dry sump tanks are all above the fluid level, but seems like most power steering resevoirs have them below the fluid level. Hmmmmmm. My personal take on this is that above is better, because if, for any reason, you have aerated fluid coming back from the steering gear, it'll give that fluid a chance to de-aerate before it mingles in with the main body of fluid. If the swirl is good and consistent enough in the resevoir, there should be no problems with the fluid slamming into the main body of fluid, thus creating more aeration. Thoughts?

That brings up another question: Resevoir capacity vs. length vs. diameter.

Dia: Too big and the swirl will loose too much velocity. Too small and...??

Length: Too long and the swirl will, again, loose too much velocity. Too short, and then we're back to too big of a diameter to get the capacity back.

Capacity: It should probably hold atleast 1/2 a quart...keeping in mind that it's only gonna be about 2/3rds full, and also keeping in mind of all the fluid that's in the cooler and lines/pump/gear. We also need to consider space confines, because I had thought that if we make this resevoir with a 2 quart capacity, you might not need a seperate cooler.

The mount thing is allways hard. How do you design a mount that will work for everyone? You don't. The best I can offer is a universal (YUCK!!!!) mount, and if someone wants something different, ya pay more.

David, silver paint?!!!!!! I've never even heard of anyone doing that! Wow.

Ok, again, just a thought, but if you guys picture the entire body of fluid swirling, then there should be no re-entry woes. I think you and Yody are picturing the main body of fluid as "standing water" with a swirling water fall running into it. I'm picturing it as the entire body of fluid swirling at the same rate. Do you think I'm off base here?

That brings up another idea I had. Keep picturing ALL the fluid in the resevoir swirling around nice and smooth. Now picture a resevoir with a flat bottom, but with a -10 outlet on tangent to the tank....exactly like the inlet, but on the opposite side of the tank, and on the very bottom. Would that actually encourage the swirling action? Would it effectively force the fluid into the outlet?

David, are you having any misting problems with your cap?

Filters again: That Lee's piece or a Peterson's (http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/oilfilt.html) filter I think would be the kitties' titties. Expensive though. The filter David used looks like a nice piece! .....well, inside, anyway. It all depends on what you want to see.

JL8Jeff's comment is probably going a long way to proving that the "slam the fluid against something" theory doesn't work very well. Thanks Jeff for your input!

Yody, thanks for calling KSE. I'm surprised that there resevoir is so simple for the price.

Steve68, I'd do that, but I'm gonna blame you when my wife yells at me for buying 30 gallons of vegatable oil, and wonders why the dog is so shiny!

Quote:
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Nothing like a fiew laps on a track to test things!
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I agree 100%. Who's got a car that can hit a track or a nice twisty canyon for us? I think that's what it's gonna come down to. Make a few prototypes and see what works.









Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

Edited by: RFR at: 8/11/04 12:15 pm

davidpozzi
Moderator
Posts: 1284
(8/11/04 1:08 pm)
Reply
Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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RFR,
I could send you a couple of the -6 return fittings I made to help the project.

I don't know of any stock system with an above fluid level return. I'm concerned about splashing of the return oil making more bubbles. The dry sump return theory is to swirl the oil against the side of a tank or tube, then spread the oil as much as possible over inverted funnel shaped baffles to pop the bubbles. This would probably work on PS return oil but you would need lots more room above fluid level to accomplish it.
I like the idea of a little swirl in the tank but the high return you suggest may not cause much swirl unless it was directed at the inside of the tank on a tangent and would need some height above the oil to lose some velocity. You'd just have to test it and see how it works.

What should be avoided is something akin to shooting a high pressure stream forcefully into standing, or slow moving fluid, I think that would inject air. It sure makes my car wash bucket foam when I fill it, where if I direct the water stream to the side of the bucket it is much better.

I think with a in-fluid return on a tangent, it would be very easy to create too much swirl at high rpm's, especially with the standard old "P" pump used on all the early GM cars. Something must be done to slow it down a little, like the nozzle I made or some kind of baffle.

It wouldn't take much swirl to cause a little vortex in the fluid and suck air into the outltet, most likely at high rpm's.
The sweet kit uses the "TC" pump, and it's a little less GPM flow, that's what I have on my system.

One small disadvantage of the lower tank return line position is more fluid will leak out when you disconnect the return line or change the filter . I hate disconnecting oil filled lines, what a mess!

I haven't run the car long enough to see if there is any misting of oil from the cap. I thought of just putting a hose nipple on it and running a very thin black vent hose down under the car, or maybe put a small inline fuel filter in the vent line. Before I get into that, I'm going to try and find either a better cap, or something I can screw or weld onto this cap to act as a filter/oil separator, I think that will be enough. I really hate running any extra hoses all over the engine bay.

I like the idea of a funnel shaped bottom with line in the center. Your idea of a tangent outlet to take in the swirling fluid is good too, just think a straight down hose will work for more of us, and I don't want to use a 90 or 45 deg fitting there if at all possible.

If I had too much swirl, I'd think about adding a baffle across the tank but only on the lower third or quarter.
David
67 RS Camaro, 69 Camaro vint racer, 65 Lola T-70 Can-Am vint racer.
ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/

Edited by: davidpozzi at: 8/11/04 1:24 pm

geometric123
Registered User
Posts: 9
(8/11/04 2:53 pm)
Reply Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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i got an AGR box on my 68 camaro and i definatly dont want to over heat it.. i plan on racing it on the track and messing around on the street

do i really need a remote resevoir for this type of thing?

yody
Registered User
Posts: 363
(8/11/04 4:24 pm)
Reply Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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Yes you definetly want a remote resevoir, it isnt about the box, as much as it is about the pump. I agree with david, make the inlet below fluid and have it come in so it goes against teh wall, into the swirl, like his water hose in the bucket description, okay, scrap the filter. how about if you made a mount like in the pic but just used the portion in the back and weld it to the tank. sort of like a "U" with a flat bottom to mount. Also any misting is out of the question for me, my underhood is highly detailed and i cannot have power steering fluid going anywhere!!!
firebird website

CarlC
Registered User
Posts: 223
(8/11/04 6:01 pm)
Reply
Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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All right, more to ponder:

Matt, it's all about controlling the kinetic energy of the fluid. Seems as if the KSE filter is dissipating the kinetic energy in such a way that swirl is limited.

If I open the KSE tank while the engine is running there is hardly any fluid movement at the top of the tank. If there was a bunch of bubbles on their way up to the top, and the inlet/return was near the top, would a blast of returning fluid re-mix the air into the system?

How about this con for swirling fluid. We don't know what the fluid volume is, and hence the velocity, for most engine/pump speeds. If the fluid velocity is very high and the return nozzle is aimed tangentially to the reservoir body (assuming a circular cross-section) the swirl speed may become very high. The centrifugal force of this swirl will cause the fluid to climb the reservoir walls. If it gets too high it will reach the top and become a non-swirlling mess. Depending on the height to diameter ratio and the fluid volume, if the return was place in the bottom center it could possibly starve. David's bucket example comes to mind. Squirt the water horizontally along the side of the bucket and the water will overtop. Immediately remove the nozzle and the bucket is maybe 1/2 full.

Like David I'm not wild about he idea of having the return on the bottom. It's kinda messy, but it's also the lowest point in the reservoir, which will accumulate any debris that makes it into the tank. Even with an in-line filter some debris will get in. With the outlet just above the bottom and having a magnet attached near the outlet the tank should work fine.

Having a tank with an equal length to diameter ratio seems like it would be ideal, but for fitment it would be tough to do. Maybe a 1.5L:1D would allow for sufficient fluid volume and dwell time, keep fluid velocities down, provide some upper reservoir volume for bubbles to move upward, and allow for some airspace at the top. Total system capacity for mine is nearly 3 quarts.

I'd be willing to be a guinea pig especially since I don't like my current reservoir location.

Matt, I hope these thoughts are not taken by you in the wrong way. I'm just tossing ideas out and seeing what cumulatively we can make stick.

http://www.geocities.com/casanoc


Edited by: CarlC at: 8/11/04 6:14 pm

nancejd
Registered User
Posts: 274
(8/11/04 7:40 pm)
Reply Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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How about something like this? Seems like it would give you an upper level to de-aereate, and a lower level to pull fluid out of. As long as the fluid level was always high enough to maintain supply it seems like a two chamber system would give you good control and remove any suspended air.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

James

RFR
Local user
Posts: 225
(8/11/04 9:27 pm)
Reply Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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James, I'd be concerned with having the upper level spilling over (like a water fall) into the lower level and, again, creating aeration. Good idea...let's see what the others have to say.





Unless anyone has more ideas, I think I'm gonna get geared up to build a few of these and just see what happens.

One with cone bottom, 3"x 4 1/2" not including cone. -10 outlet, -6 inlet tangent to tank, below fluid level.

One same as above, except 2"x6".

One 3x4 1/2 w/ flat bottom and tangent -10 outlet/tangent -6 inlet above fluid level (just because I'm curious about that one).



Whatcha say?

Carl, what kind of mount do you need to get these in your car? Send me drawings if you can.


Another question. Since it was stated that vacuum in the suction side can be a problem, why not run a -12 outlet? It'd keep the same flow (especially since the line runs downhill) and would create less vacuum.


Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

Edited by: RFR at: 8/11/04 9:30 pm

RFR
Local user
Posts: 226
(8/11/04 9:37 pm)
Reply Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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Would all of you be willing to have a chat session about this? Tommorow isn't good for me (having a chassis certified at my shop tommorow night)(A chassis for my FRIEND! LOL)

Maybe Saturday morning? Friday night?
Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

davidpozzi
Moderator
Posts: 1286
(8/11/04 10:26 pm)
Reply
Re: cooling
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geometric123
I think you can use a stock pump and reservoir if you use a good cooler on the return line.
The remote tank alone is supposed to cool the system by 30 deg and many just use that and avoid using a cooler. The tank alone might get you by but just barely, they still run hot on the track.

I used a thin auto trans cooler and it seems to be working well but not track tested yet.
David
67 RS Camaro, 69 Camaro vint racer, 65 Lola T-70 Can-Am vint racer.
ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/

yody
Registered User
Posts: 364
(8/11/04 11:07 pm)
Reply Re: cooling
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email, me if you need any extra donations for help in materials(hopefully they will go somewhat towards the cost of my new res. if not, so be it) chat would work for me saturday morning, or later friday night, like 9:00. what do you think about my mount idea? i think it could be made easily with a mill
firebird website

ddennis68
Registered User
Posts: 355
(8/11/04 11:31 pm)
Reply Re: cooling
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OK, Ill jump in. We have huge problems in the Chrysler camp right now with P/S systems and external reservoir design. They cant get it straight, for a while we were replacing P/S fluid with ATF, that helped but caused the rubber on the inside of the hoses to deteriorate and deposit itself on the screen in the bottom of the reservoir-pump starts making noise because it is starving for fluid. I dont think the key is a remote reservoir as much as it is to filter and COOL the fluid. Adding a reservoir does nothing to cool the fluid (ask anybody with a large capacity oil pan how much their oil temp went up after adding it). When the fluid just sits there it has no way to cool itself, it needs to go through as cooler of some kind (01-04 Caravans have nice easy to mount coolers). or it will never cool down. The Chrysler engineers have us adding 30 to the existing P/S return line back to the reservoir-not sure why but I think they adding fluid capacity. It seems to work. That said, I think the quart reservoir is a little on the small side and leave room somewhere in the plans for a small cooler, it doesnt have to much, just somewhere to get some flow. Matt, Im not ready for P/S stuff yet but I am for sure going take you up on that reservoir offer at some point in the near future, like I said, a little bigger though.

Matt, you would be amazed how much vacuum is created in the P/S system on the feed side of the pump, open the reservoir on a new Caravan and run the RPMs up, it almost looks like a whirlpool and they are not running cone bottoms (though they should), hey maybe you should do some engineering for Chrysler. All the Chrysler factory systems dump the fluid in about 1 above the fluid level, it just drops in from the side. This feature may have something to do with problems we are having, maybe Ill play with the next a little bit.
Dennis-

check out progress of Bondobucket

RFR
Local user
Posts: 227
(8/12/04 12:30 am)
Reply Re: cooling
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Dennis, good info! Thanks. What size resevoir would you like to see? That's still up in the air so far, so we need input on that.



Re: Chat. I'm in California (PST), I'd really like to get a time nailed down for a chat session. Everyone is welcome! So far 9pm Friday or sometime Saturday morning.
Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

CarlC
Registered User
Posts: 224
(8/12/04 9:54 am)
Reply Reservoirs
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David,

Craig Boone boiled over his PS setup last year. It was a integral reservoir P-pump with cooler, but the cooler was not mounted in the optimal position.

Matt,

I'll have to do some pondering on the fitment issues. However, due to a lot of work travel coming up it would be tough for me to get it installed before SEMA.

RFR
Local user
Posts: 229
(8/12/04 9:58 am)
Reply Re: Reservoirs
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Carl, time line really doesn't matter to me, but Yody's the one who started this and I don't know if he's in any hurry or not. When's SEMA? If he's in a way-big hurry, he'll have to find another car to test, but I get the feeling he's not.

Yody?
Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

yody
Registered User
Posts: 365
(8/12/04 11:37 am)
Reply Re: Reservoirs
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actually i am in a somewhat hurry, i would like to get a resevori in the next few weeks. I am trying to finish the car within 3 months. routing all my power steering crap is coming up soon in the list. saturday morning is good for me for the chat or late friday night. so it seems like the concerns are;
how big tank should be
where to mount inlet, abover or below fluid line
what type of cap to prevent misting(how about a baffle right below it?)
how to direct incoming fluid
how much swirl is too much
what kind of mount( i personally will want the desing i mentioned earlier, not the one in the picture but a modified version welded to the tank)

firebird website

RFR
Local user
Posts: 234
(8/12/04 11:54 am)
Reply Re: Reservoirs
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Ok, then screw the chat, let's do it Q&A style...should be faster than getting everyone in the same place at the same time!


1. Inlet above or below fluid line?

2. Inlet angled up or down or horizontal?

3. Inlet ID flared to slow flow down?

4. Filter inside resevoir or inline filter?

5. Outlet -10 or -12?

6. Outlet in bottom of cone or tangent in flat-bottom?

7. What cap to use? Vent the tank or vent the cap?

8. Baffle below cap but above inlet?

9. Resevoir dimensions / capacity

10. Misc. thoughts or concerns.


Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

RFR
Local user
Posts: 235
(8/12/04 11:57 am)
Reply Re: Reservoirs
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Yody, tell me what bolt size / spacing you want on the bracket and I'll draw it up for you to look at.
Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

yody
Registered User
Posts: 366
(8/12/04 12:11 pm)
Reply Re: Reservoirs
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1. below
2. slightly down, possibly angled towards the side of the tank
3.possibly
4. which ever you feel confident doing and still make the tank work
5. 10AN
6.what if we made the tank like a time glass? but with the bottom portion smaller than teh top portion this way there willl be some swirl but there will be a chamber below for it to "unswirl" so it doesnt' create a vortex? otherwise i say cone with outlet in the middle/bottom
7. i guess vent the cap, and make sure there is a baffle below it so spray doesnt' come out
8. yes
9. no idea
10.price/availability?/ also do you kinda get the gist of what kind of bracket i want? it woudl be pretty universal, i can send you a pic of the my rad support, and you can tell me what you think.
11. Thanks for the effort!
12. i am gonna call up Lees steering and see what they say, also gotta ask them about something else.
firebird website

RFR
Local user
Posts: 236
(8/12/04 1:34 pm)
Reply Re: Reservoirs
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Quote:
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6.what if we made the tank like a time glass? but with the bottom portion smaller than teh top portion this way there willl be some swirl but there will be a chamber below for it to "unswirl" so it doesnt' create a vortex?
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$$$$

I know what you want for a bracket, but I need hole spacing...unless you just want to match drill for whatever I make. Also, do you want the bracket in the middle of the tank or up towards the top?
Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

ZZ Top
Registered User
Posts: 16
(8/12/04 4:34 pm)
Reply
Re: Reservoirs
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I don't want to hijack this thread, but have you considered a garden-variety reservoir like the ones I get from March?

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

67 Camaro RS/SS Convertible, 70 RS

Edited by: ZZ Top at: 8/12/04 4:38 pm

davidpozzi
Moderator
Posts: 1288
(8/12/04 5:39 pm)
Reply
Re: Reservoirs
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FYI,
The sweet tank I have is 3.25" dia and 6" tall. I fill it 3/4 full leaving 1/4 for air space.

Any baffle at the top should have a hole in it so you can see the fluid level. I like the idea of a baffled cap instead of baffle at the top of the reservoir. I use a suction gun to remove the oil from the tank before disconnecting hoses, a solid baffle in the way would prevent that.

The nice thing about a gentle swirl is, the center of the tank is the lowest point of fluid level, but bumps are going to shake it up.
David
67 RS Camaro, 69 Camaro vint racer, 65 Lola T-70 Can-Am vint racer.
ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/

Edited by: davidpozzi at: 8/12/04 6:20 pm

ddennis68
Registered User
Posts: 358
(8/12/04 7:07 pm)
Reply Re: Reservoirs
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I think a quart would be alright, that would give total system capacity about 2-2.5 quarts. I found a great cooler today while I was supposed to be working, doing a condenser on a new Caravan and noticed the aux. trans cooler is a nice rectangle with 3/8 NPT fittings on the same side. Very lightweight, about 1 lbs, all aluminum construction. It was about 12X8X. List price is kind of pricey at 90 bucks but if you know somebody (Yodi, call Vince) at a Chrysler dealer cost is only 55.00. It is real big for a P/S cooler, you would never worry about overheat. When I pick mine up Ill post some pics.

BTW, part # for those interested is 4809271AB, application is 2001-2004 Chrysler / Dodge minivan.
Dennis-

check out progress of Bondobucket

CarlC
Registered User
Posts: 226
(8/12/04 8:21 pm)
Reply
Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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Yody, you're the man. I won't be able to do the testing within your timeframe.



http://www.geocities.com/casanoc


nancejd
Registered User
Posts: 275
(8/12/04 8:28 pm)
Reply Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

How about modifying it this way. By giving the fluid something to run down once it flows over the top, you should be able to remove more air, sort of like a spillway in a dam. A secondary benefit seems like having additional surface area for the fluid to contact would benefit heat transfer out of the fluid.
James

RFR
Local user
Posts: 238
(8/12/04 10:03 pm)
Reply Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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James, that is a pretty good design I think. The bottom baffle would actually serve as a baffle to try to keep the fluid in the bottom of the resevoir under braking/turning. However, it's been requested to keep the price down as much as possible (naturally), and your design would be closing in on $180+.

Also, to get any cooling benifit from added contact surface, said surface has to be exposed to air.

I hate to keep shooting you down!! I'm saving your drawing, though, for future reference. Thanks!
Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

yody
Registered User
Posts: 368
(8/12/04 10:32 pm)
Reply Re: Who makes a nice pwr steering remote resevoir?
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Quote:
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Yody, you're the man. I won't be able to do the testing within your timeframe.
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yody!yody!yody!

darn, i thought the timeglass thing was a pretty good idea, if you look at ZZ's pic the moutn i would like woudl be like only half of that mount take the part with the flat side and weld it on to the back of the tank somewhere near the middle i guess? so many ideas out here what do we stick to?? to bad we dont' have any hydraulic engineers here or something like that?? if i am going to be the test mule(car won't be done for a few more months) the inlet and outlets are going to have to be somewhat in similar locations, otherwise the AN is going to be too short or too long. I am all open, what do you guys think would be a good comprise in terms of design? RFR what do you think would be most cost effective?
firebird website

RFR
Local user
Posts: 240
(8/12/04 10:50 pm)
Reply .
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Yody, you have your AN lines made allready?

derekf
08-18-2004, 01:51 PM
Re: .
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no, i just mean once i mount a tank, then route the lines to it, if i was to test a different tank, then the outlet/inlet would need to be in the same location, but i think the test will be more like, buy this one, and hope it works! if not then we build another. i am fine with that, hopefully we don't try to get all smart and end up making a tank that don't work at all!! I tried to get ahold of Tom Lee, today but will try again tomorrow, i will get his input too.
firebird website

JL8Jeff
Registered User
Posts: 42
(8/13/04 5:32 am)
Reply Re: .
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Let me ask this guys, what is the advantage(if any) of having the inlet and outlet both in the bottom side of the reservoir? I see quite a few reservoirs set up like this. I imagine it's for convenience in mounting close to the pump, but will the inlet coming in the bottom cause upwelling of the fluid to help force air to the top?
69 Z28 JL8 4 wheel disc brakes, crossram - being restored, 91 Chevy SS454 pickup, 68 Camaro LT1/4L60E with 4 wheel discs

RFR
Local user
Posts: 241
(8/13/04 8:49 am)
Reply Re: .
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Quote:
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and end up making a tank that don't work at all!!
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You'd be surprised at how many failures it takes to get something that works! If we can get a good test car soon, then hopefully you won't have to buy one that hasn't been tested. I dunno, we'll see. You will have one when you need it.



Jeff, from what I've seen, any tank with the inlet in the bottom like you're talking about also has a tube that goes straight up and ends up dumping fluid in the top portion of the tank. It's just a different way to do it, and, yes, probably for convinient plumbing.
Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

CAMAROAJ
Registered User
Posts: 103
(8/13/04 10:29 am)
Reply idea
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how about having the outlet out the center of the bottom having a down taper to it out the bottom (kinda like this \/ just not as much of an angle) and having a upside down "U" with a round plate on top to keep a vortex from starting. then mount the inlet with a slight upward angle like david did, but under the fluid level. the plate on top of the upside down "U" would act as a baffel leaving about a 1/4 inch or so on the sides to get the fluid to the bottom. the sides of the "U" would be angled inward to direct the the fluid to the center. don't know if will work on the track but it sounds like it could work in park

nancejd
Registered User
Posts: 276
(8/13/04 11:45 am)
Reply Re: idea
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I'm not an engineer, so I'm just throwing out my crazy ideas. I think $180 or so for a tank that is truly functional isn't a bad deal at all, especially for something that is hand fabricated. Anyway, as far as I know, you ought to be able to transfer more heat into the metal by increasing the surface area on the inside of the tank. If that increased the temperature differential between the outer surface and the air, then you ought to increase the heat transfer rate between the tank and the outside air. The cooling effect is really only a secondary effect though, if you are serious about cooling you would run a seperate cooler anyway. Personally, I would mount something like this next to my radiator on the core support facing the grill. It should get some airflow from that anyway. I've been thinking about what I want to do for my car, and at least from an appearance standpoint, it would be nice to have something that matches the overflow tank for my Ron Davis Radiator, except for a breather of some kind instead of the solid cap.
James

yody
Registered User
Posts: 370
(8/13/04 12:19 pm)
Reply Re: idea
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Talked to Lee today, WOW what a nice guys, spent about an hour with me on the phone about power steering systems! He says his resevoirs have a T entrance with the T going left and right in the resevoir, he says the inlet is way down below the lever, and it also has a baffle near the bottom. then my phone cut off!!! i think i will buy one of his, send it to RFR to make a bracket, let him cut it open and take a look at it, get some ideas and weld it back up. Not to copy but to get some ideas how one works. Lee guaranteed me that it would work perfect. He says you want the fluid on top look very still barely moving around, but you want the bottom to be sucking. plus the resevoir is only like $75. I think if RFR could duplicate these and make any changes that seemed fit and adapted whatever bracket you needed it would be pretty great. whadaythink?
firebird website

RFR
Local user
Posts: 246
(8/13/04 12:54 pm)
Reply Re: idea
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One trend I'm seeing in replys is to swirl the fluid as it enters, but then stop it before it goes out the outlet (via a vortex breaker). I go back to the principle of trying to disturb the fluid as little as possible, which means one or the other, not both. Thoughts?

My personal take on that is that you have fluid entering the resevoir at a reasonable velocity. The only way to keep that fluid calm (in my opinion) is to make it swirl. (or use a -12 return to slow the flow down) If you make it swirl, you have to keep it swirling in order for things to remain calm. Again, thoughts on this?


Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

JIML82
Registered User
Posts: 1
(8/13/04 2:31 pm)
Reply Remote Reservoir Design
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I have to admit that I haven't had a chance to read all of your postings on reservoirs. I will finish reading them all shortly. However, I want to get some basic design facts onto the websight before I forget some of them.

You guys have stumbled on a little known fact. Power steering reservoirs have a lot of design expertise inside the tank! Reservoirs serve a very dynamic purpose in that they must provide a "calming" area inside the tank that allows any entrapped air to work its way up and out of the fluid as well as supplying oil feed to the pump.

Here are a few tips that I learned at Saginaw during my 30+ years as a steering system engineer.

RESERVOIR CAPS
First of all. The Saginaw production power steering systems are closed. That is, the cap on the remote reservoir (or the pump mounted reservoir) seals against the tank. However, the production Saginaw cap has a secret, there is a Vernay umbrella valve hidden under the flat plastic plate (where the printing is!) on the cap.

The vernay valve allows the expanding fluid inside the reservoir to build several PSI of pressure and then the valve relieves! Also, when the system cools down (engine off) the vernay valve allows outside air to re-enter the reservoir as the fluid contracts. (You will note that production GM reservoir cap has COLD and a HOT marks on the stick. This shows how much the fluid normally expands from around 60 degrees F to 230 degrees F.) The vernay valve is quite unique. It allows pressure to build to a certain point in one direction, yet provides very little resistance to pressure in the other direction.

I think that your reservoirs should be designed to accept the production Saginaw caps.

THE GUTS INSIDE THE TANK
I never designed power steering reservoirs so I can't reveal any real secrets. But you might learn a few things by going to a junk yard and buying some Honda and Toyota remote reservoirs. If I remember correctly, Honda reservoirs are usually plastic. Toyota's are usually metal.

Take a hack saw or a band saw and cut them open. You will be amazed at the baffeling and screens that they design into their reservoirs. (Mostly to help expel the air.) The Japanese passenger car systems usually don't flow as much fluid as the GM systems so my guess is that the reservoirs themselves probably have feed fittings to the pump that are smaller than GM's.

The plastic Saginaw reservoirs on the small TC and CB pumps also have a labyrinth of baffles and plates that intersect and interlock inside.

A bad way to design a reservoir is for the returning fluid to be directed such that it gets immediately sucked into the pump intake. The air in the fluid immediately begins multiplying and never gets a chance to escape until the engine is turned off!

The P-pump integral reservoir is quite simple - BUT the return pipe location is very critical. There are only a couple of places on the back of the pump (Saginaw obviously knows the locations) where the return pipe can be located and the fluid flow allowed to enter.

RESERVOIR TO PUMP FEED LINES
I remember that our feed lines from the reservoir to the pump were at least 5/8 ID. They were relatively thick wall so that they would have minimum restriction to the flow of oil (particularly when we tested them for cold starts at -40 F.) I don't remember that we had problems with the hose collapsing under normal operating conditions. I do know that we tried to keep the pump and remote reservoir as close together as practical to minimize restriction.

FILTERS
We never said that you had to have a filter in the system. Most Saginaw systems have a very strong magnet assembled inside the pump reservoir. Saginaw has had magnets since the middle 1970s. For the most part, the pump can "eat" quite a bit of contaminents without failing.

SAGINAW P, TC, and CB PUMPS
The "big" old P-pump is still the real workhorse of the steering league. It is the most reliable and more quiet than the more recent small Saginaw TC (bearing) and CB (bushing) style pumps.

COOLERS
It is a good idea to place a cooler (radiator style or a tubular trombone type) in the return line. The Ford Taurus (in the late 80s and 90s) had a tubular cooler pipe that expanded up from 3/8 diameter to 1/2 inch dia as it went across the lower radiator support. There are a good number of 3/8 diameter coolers on cars and trucks.

I don't think that the metal reservoir tank provides much cooling. You need fluid flow through a tube that is exposed to some air flow in order to do a good job of cooling the fluid.

POWER STEERING FLUID
Lastly, I can't speak for any synthetic fluids that may be on the market - but the GM power steering fluid that is sold at GM dealerships is the ONLY fluid that is specifically formulated to work with the Saginaw pumps. Millions of hours of lab testing and millions of miles of vehicle testing goes into development of this fluid.

Some of the brands of fluid on the market say that they meet GM specs but they are not tested anywhere to the degree that the GM fluid is tested.

RFR
Local user
Posts: 248
(8/13/04 3:49 pm)
Reply Re: Remote Reservoir Design
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Jim, welcome to the board!

No offense, but how much does a stock power steering system have in common with the systems on these pro-touring cars? Do they differ very much when fluid control is considered? Saginaws vs. power rack and pinions.... stock pumps vs. bad ass KRC pump....higher RPM motors, harder cornering = more corrections, etc.

And you mention the feed line being 5/8" ID...that's what a -10 is, so atleast we're on the right track there. (although, that's what everybody runs!)
Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

JIML82
Registered User
Posts: 2
(8/13/04 4:10 pm)
Reply More Remote Reservoir Design
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We used to cold start the power steering pump, reservoir, hoses, and gears in a cold room at -40 F and check performance. You probably will never have to expect your systems to operate at anywhere near that condition. However, you probably expect your steering system to perform under extremes of G-loads that were not anticipated by the steering engineers 30 years ago!

You could take your remote reservoir design (add additional hose length if necessary); start your engine; and tip the reservoir at an angle of 30 degrees in all directions. Have someone turn the steering wheel. This should simulate some extremes of acceleration, deceleration, and turn conditions. You would expect that the pump will not suck air under any of these tipped conditions. You could even vary the amount of fluid in the reservoir and run the test to see if low fluid conditions could cause the reservoir not to perform adequately.

NEVER hold the steering at full lock turn and high engine rpms for more than a few seconds. At full lock, there is no fluid being circulated through the hoses or gear. The pump is recirculating only a very small amount of fluid that is interal to the pump. This small amount of fluid rapidly becomes superheated and can lose its lubricity. The pump vanes, plates, rotor, and driveshaft bushing can become scored and ruined.

If you have racing conditions that require full lock at high engine rpms this could explain some pump failures. One reason for a cooler, the lower the fluid temperature to start, the longer it might take to fry a pump under abusive conditions.

nancejd
Registered User
Posts: 277
(8/13/04 4:46 pm)
Reply Re: Remote Reservoir Design
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So, it sounds like you would want the fluid to enter as far away as possible from the outlet, as long as it was situated so that the incoming fluid doesn't disturb the surface to the point of introducing additional air. It also sounds like you basically want the fluid to remain as motionless as possible in order to allow it to discharge entrained air. Basically preventing swirl and turbulance seems like a high priority.
James

RFR
Local user
Posts: 249
(8/13/04 4:48 pm)
Reply Re: Remote Reservoir Design
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James, that's my main question too. Swirl or no swirl.
Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

RFR
Local user
Posts: 250
(8/13/04 5:29 pm)
Reply Re: Remote Reservoir Design
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https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Should be self explanitory.
Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

ddennis68
Registered User
Posts: 360
(8/13/04 9:44 pm)
Reply Re: Remote Reservoir Design
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Matt, the second drawing is very similar to a factory Chrysler reservoir, you might actually know what your talking about. That or you and engineering are both retarded .
Dennis-

check out progress of Bondobucket

RFR
Local user
Posts: 252
(8/13/04 10:32 pm)
Reply .
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I'm going with retarded.






nancejd
Registered User
Posts: 279
(8/14/04 7:42 pm)
Reply Re: .
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It seems to me like the first design would work very well at controlling fluid, and allowing air to separate.
James

ddennis68
Registered User
Posts: 362
(8/14/04 8:44 pm)
Reply 1st design
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Matt, I like the 1st design with a 1qt capacity, that will be perfect.

Hey Jim, nice to see you over here, are you suggesting that the old style pump with the reservoir attached is the more durable of the pumps? I'm not disagreeing, I don't change very many and it may be worth running the stock pump with a cooler if that is the case.

RFR
Local user
Posts: 254
(8/14/04 10:09 pm)
Reply Re: 1st design
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Dennis, as drawn, the first one is .71 quarts. To get a full quart, it started looking out of proportion. And if I step up to 4" dia, it's too short and fat. Does anyone care what the thing (proportionatly) looks like?
Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

RFR
Local user
Posts: 255
(8/14/04 11:32 pm)
Reply Re: 1st design
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Correction, .592 quarts instead of .71 quarts in the first drawing above.


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif


[Edit] Sorry about the width...I have no idea how to resize once it's on the internet.

Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

Edited by: RFR at: 8/14/04 11:33 pm

JIML82
Registered User
Posts: 3
(8/15/04 10:55 am)
Reply 1rst Design
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Dennis,
I don't have any direct information that says that the old P-pump with the integral reservoir is more durable. However, the P-pump always seems to have quieter operation than the smaller TC (bearing) and CB (bushing) pumps. We found that in many, many cases of systems that used hydraboost brakes, the P-pump systems were typically quiet, the small pump systems always needed tuning.

I am sure that you guys aren't that concerned about steering system noise, but lack of noise also should be an indication of smooth efficient operation.

Question: Is the dashed line up the middle of the reservoir in Design 1 a fine mesh screen?

davidpozzi
Moderator
Posts: 1296
(8/15/04 11:33 am)
Reply
Re: 1rst Design
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Jim,
Thanks for your help!

We had a 74 Chevy C-60 truck with HD reservoir,it had a cap that was metal and shaped like a radiator cap. I don't recall if it had any vent valve though, just thinking of alternative caps.
I think the return line went to the pump, not the tank on this one.
Too bad there wasn't a separate valve independent of the cap.
How much pressure can the tank tolerate before there is a problem? I imagine the pump seal would start leaking if there was too much tank pressure.
David
67 RS Camaro, 69 Camaro vint racer, 65 Lola T-70 Can-Am vint racer.
ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/

Edited by: davidpozzi at: 8/15/04 11:36 am

RFR
Local user
Posts: 258
(8/15/04 2:54 pm)
Reply Re: 1rst Design
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Jim, thanks for all of your input! And, no, the dashed line is a solid baffle. I drew in a weld in the center drawing to show what it will look like when built.

David, There certainly has to be something done regarding a vented cap (or solid cap and a seperate vent). The hard part isn't finding a cap...the hard part is finding an aluminum weld bung for a cap.

I still wonder about a solid cap and a roll over valve beside the cap.
Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

JIML82
Registered User
Posts: 4
(8/15/04 7:59 pm)
Reply Re: 1rst Design
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The vernay (umbrella) valve served a couple purposes. It allowed for a controlled pressure in the pump reservoir. A couple psi in the reservoir resulted in quieter pump operation. The pump driveshaft seal has a pressure sensitive sealing lip. Too much pressure could cause the lip to grip the shaft and wear out prematurely. The vernay valve was designed to create 2 to 3 psi as I remember.

A vacuum in the reservoir is bad. A vacuum can cause the driveshaft seal or the steering gear seals to suck air into the system. The vernay valve allows for very free flow back into the reservoir to prevent a vacuum.

If you have a non-vented cap the following can happen. Drive the car for a distance. Now stop the car and check the power steering fluid level. Replace the cap and now let the car sit for some time. As the system cools and the power steering fluid contracts, a vacuum is created in the reservoir. Now when the car is restarted, air will be sucked into the system through the pump and/or gear seals.

davidpozzi
Moderator
Posts: 1299
(8/15/04 9:09 pm)
Reply
Re: 1rst Design
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My Sweet tank has just a threaded hole in it with a register for the O ring on the cap, that part is pretty good on this tank. I'd guess it's got a 1" hole.
The whole top and bottom of the tank is one machined piece with a step in the center area to thicken it for the inlet and outlet holes, so there is enough thread depth.

Stef's sells aluminum weld in cap necks.
http://www.stefs.com/stefs.htm
67 RS Camaro, 69 Camaro vint racer, 65 Lola T-70 Can-Am vint racer.
ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/David_Pozzi/

RFR
Local user
Posts: 259
(8/15/04 10:11 pm)
Reply Re: 1rst Design
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David, Stef's caps are unvented.

I think I misspoke.... I was of the impression that you were trying to find some stock type 1/4 turn vented caps like you find on all the oil fillers and power steering resevoirs in late model cars. THOSE are the impossible necks to find. Then again, I don't seem to have very good luck with "googling".

Ron Davis, Stef's, Pro-Werks, etc all make vented/unvented AN style caps, but the vented ones are all just open holes to atmoshpere.

I'm still thinking that we're looking at either a roll over valve or a seperate puke tank. Would anyone be opposed to a tiny puke tank welded onto the side of the resevoir? Something like 5/8 OD tube about half the length of the resevoir? Plumb it with hardline (-6) with a drain on the bottom.

Drawing on it's way.....
Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

RFR
Local user
Posts: 260
(8/15/04 11:00 pm)
Reply Re: 1rst Design
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As I was drawing that up, I realised it was a horrible idea.

Oh well.
Matt
www.RFRCustomFab.com

JIML82
Registered User
Posts: 5
(8/18/04 5:47 am)
Reply Remote Reservoirs
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If you were to make your remote reservoir from sheet metal, you could braze a production GM reservoir neck to it. This would allow you to use a production capstick with the vernay valve.

The sheet metal tank could be chrome plated.

I think that there are places that can chrome plate plastic (at least I see that in car model magazines). The Saginaw capstick can be disassambled and the components sent out to be chrome plated. The center flat plate has to be pryed off to get at the vernay valve. It might take a few capsticks to get the plate off without destroying it. I would assume that capsticks can be obtained from a salvage yard cheaply and in vast quantities. The plate would then have to be super glued (or epoxied) back in place.

Just some of my thoughts.

BTW, I think that Saginaw used to design their reservoirs to have 3/4 power steering fluid and 1/4 air.

derekf
08-18-2004, 01:54 PM
Gentlemen: I've copied this thread over to the best of my ability and it would appear that I've gotten all the links right and all the pictures added back in in the right place.

However, Hobbystage pics are blocked by the filter here at work - I don't even see the red X that would tell me that I didn't get a pic. Other similar items might also be blocked.

If I missed a link or a pic, please let me know and I'll correct it as soon as I am able.