To tune or not to tune?

[trapin]

I am in the process of seeing what I can slash from my budget to get ready for RTH4. One of the line items I am thinking about vetoing is having the car tuned on a chassis dyno which I know ranges from $500-$600. I'm wondering if I can forego this step with the modifications I'll have. Here's my mods; TR224/114 cam, LS6 intake, ported throttle body, LT headers.

The other part I'm wondering about is my decision to go with the stock convertor for now. Do you think I'm going to hate life too much with it? I had heard if I had the engine tuned with those modifications that I would have to stand on the brake at idle with the stock convertor. So I guess if I just don't tune it, I won't have to worry about it.

What are your thoughts? Will the car run like crap and not be driveable or is the tune only necessary to realize the mill's true potential with the mods. Thanks.

[Patrolman808]

You can run it without a tune, but a good tune won't hurt things for sure. I think the TR224 is a tad big to run with the stock converter and enjoy driving the car. A good 3K stall would be a nice starting point. Guys run untuned Trex cars and that's a big cam. If it was me I'd throw in a stall and get it dyno tuned. Just my .02 though.

[Damn True]

I'm no expert but Id be really afraid of damaging the engine. A lean condition could burn a piston in short order.

If its me I'd tune it.

[4MuscleMachines]

Buy HP Tuners and go at it LOL. That way you can do it yourself after every mod you bolt on.

[WS6]

You can get a mail order tune from say Speed Inc-----> and that will get you down the road safely. I would do everything you can to get a 2800 stall in the car. It will make life so much nicer for you.

[jonnyc]

with the 224 cam you might see an extra 15 rwhp with a tune.but you don't need a tne to drive it.with the lt headers you are more than likely running a little rich right now anyways.plus the computer will learn itself and make adjustments enough to keep it running safe.with the 114 lsa you might get a little surging when at a stop.there is a mod where you drill the hole in the throttle body blade just a little bigger to help with the idle issue if you have any.
you souldn't need to run a stall to be able to drive it,but it would sure make a differance in performance if you put one in.i would do the stall before i did a tune with a 224 cam.

[[email protected]]

You can get a mail order tune from say Speed Inc-----> and that will get you down the road safely.
Thanks for the plug! We charge $150 on a mail order tune. The form is located here:
http://www.ls1speed.com/PDF/Tuning.pdf

I agree, a 2800-3000+ converter recommended with that camshaft. I swear we must have installed and tuned a 1000 cars with that 224 cam.

Tom

[trapin]

I swear we must have installed and tuned a 1000 cars with that 224 cam.
Yeah? And how'd they run? What kind of performance numbers did you see?

I can get an ACC Boss Hog coverter with a stall between 2800-3000 from eBay for $336 shipped to my door. With a mail order tune I'd be looking at $486 versus $1300 for a Pro-Torque and dyno tune. I think I can swing that. What do you guys think?

[[email protected]]

my 69 with LS1, that 224 cam, and older ported 5.3 heads made 422 RWHP, and ran 11.2@122. The late model F-bodies, will typically make 375-400RWHP with a 6 speed, headers, LS6 intake, pulley, with stock heads. AUtomatics will dyno about 15 less with a locked converter.

To answer your question, I would expect about 375RWHP with the converter locked.

[WS6]

Thanks for the plug! We charge $150 on a mail order tune. The form is located here:
http://www.ls1speed.com/PDF/Tuning.pdf

I agree, a 2800-3000+ converter recommended with that camshaft. I swear we must have installed and tuned a 1000 cars with that 224 cam.

Tom

You're welcome. You guys have earned it for sure.

Tony, I have no idea about that converter choice. Never heard of them. To me a converter is something you only want to do once. I would look to vigalanti(sp?) or Yank honestly. Maybe TCI even. You are still well under a grand for a TC and tune then.

[trapin]

my 69 with LS1, that 224 cam, and older ported 5.3 heads made 422 RWHP, and ran 11.2@122. The late model F-bodies, will typically make 375-400RWHP with a 6 speed, headers, LS6 intake, pulley, with stock heads. AUtomatics will dyno about 15 less with a locked converter.

To answer your question, I would expect about 375RWHP with the converter locked.
I don't get it, if I'm only losing 15 through an A4, why would I be way down at 375 and not 407 or closer? Is it because the heads are Stage II LS1 castings and not 5.3? It sounds like my setup is pretty close to what yours was.

[andrewb70]

I don't get it, if I'm only losing 15 through an A4, why would I be way down at 375 and not 407 or closer? Is it because the heads are Stage II LS1 castings and not 5.3? It sounds like my setup is pretty close to what yours was.

Its the heads.

Tony, send your ECU to Tom. He will take good care of you. With as many tunes as they have done with that cam I suspect he will nail it right on the money without having your car there. I am sure he can also firm up the shifts in your automatic. It's well worth the $150.

Andrew

[[email protected]]

I don't get it, if I'm only losing 15 through an A4, why would I be way down at 375 and not 407 or closer? Is it because the heads are Stage II LS1 castings and not 5.3? It sounds like my setup is pretty close to what yours was.
I figured 375 with stock heads. Ported heads are worth 20-25 with that size cam. Again, keep in mind, that is with a LOCKED converter. We have one TCI242931 3000 converter left on the shelf, I can make you a deal on. They are normally $469 through is, but I can give you a discount if you are interested. We also sell the Precision Vigilante at $699. I am assuming you have a 4L60E.

[trapin]

Oh, I see. Thanks Tom. I'll try to give you a call later today or first thing tommorow.

[WS6]

Don't forget that the 5.3s bump compression a little too, Tony.

Before the after market heads started showing up in mass, the 5.3s where the ticket for monster power. I had one of the most powerful heads/cam cars in the country at the time at my shop dynoing. 98 SS with a 5.3 headed LS1/M6. 456 rwhp was his number. He later dropped the power steering off and had it dyno tuned by Alan Futral(he was running a Futral cam) and sat just over 470 rwhp when done. The FAST intake hadn't even come out yet so he was just using an LS6. I wouldn't have driven it on the street, but he did and it did fine. The cam was too choppy for my tastes. 93 octane fuel and the cam was a hydraulic one.

Now-a-days thanks to companies like Trick Flow and AFR, 450 rwhp is easy. You can do it with a mild cam too. Well, it's mild compared to cams like Trex2 and Magic Stick4 and whatever this kid had in his 98.

[trapin]

I've thought about doing the 5.3 heads, and I may do that. But for some reason I have this desire to keep the same heads on the car, get 400rwhp and be able to tell people that the only "aftermarket" performance part on the engine is the camshaft. I wanna stick it to all the "old school" guys that are scoffing at my LS1. LOL!!!!

[andrewb70]

I wanna stick it to all the "old school" guys that are scoffing at my LS1. LOL!!!!

Thats not that hard to do..LOL

Andrew

[WS6]

I've thought about doing the 5.3 heads, and I may do that. But for some reason I have this desire to keep the same heads on the car, get 400rwhp and be able to tell people that the only "aftermarket" performance part on the engine is the camshaft. I wanna stick it to all the "old school" guys that are scoffing at my LS1. LOL!!!!

haha well, you can do what your trying to do fairly easily. However, I'd suggest coming over to the "dark side" and just change the heads out so you can really pound.

You know you could swap to LS6 heads, intake, and valley cover and simply claim it's a cammed LS6. Unless someone starts hunting for the block numbers, know one will notice. Oh and change the PCV system over to LS6 as well.

[trapin]

Yep, that's already being done Trey.

[Patrolman808]

I think even the 224/114 is a little too big to run the stock converter. I think a 2200 stall would be about the lowest I'd want to go. If I was going through the trouble to put a stall in I wouldn't go lower than a 2800-3000. Those seem to work really well on the street and and at the track for a daily drivable car.

[trapin]

I got a good deal on a TCI 3000 stall. It's a 10" convertor. I figured it might be awhile before I can make the swap over to the Twist Machine stuff so I knew I needed something to get me by. I went with this one because I know I'll have no trouble selling it when I'm done with it.