Are there any computers that do way more than just run the motor?

[aggressive male]

I've been thinking about upgrading from a fuel only holley projection system to maybe a commander 950 but before I do I was wondering if there is anything that does way more than just run the engine? Like maybe one that has a remote starter and will also pop the trunk and door locks for you? Or even cruise control? Or is something like this not likely to ever happen?

[GetMore]

Some have extra inputs and outputs, so you could arrange it, but you will not be able to come close to what OEM computers will do.
At this time I wouldn't expect to see the aftermarket get into that. Perhaps in the future, if there is enough demand, but right now it wouldn't be cost effective.

[Samckitt]

In the past the door locks & trunk are controlled by a BCM (Body Control Module) computer, separate from the PCM (Powertrain Control Module). Not sure about the newer vehicles.

[aggressive male]

In the past the door locks & trunk are controlled by a BCM (Body Control Module) computer, separate from the PCM (Powertrain Control Module). Not sure about the newer vehicles.Oh alright, I was looking for a solid way to seperate the computers. So typical cars have 3 electronics boxes? a body control module, a powertrain control module and an entertainment center?

[dannyho]

on an alarm i put in on a grand cherokee, a single input wire took care of lock/unlock and remote start, meaning one unit. what a nightmare though

[Samckitt]

And an ABS unit.....?

[chicane67]

BCM, PCM, EBCM... and the ECU are typical of late model systems.

It could work... if you used the whole system out of a late model... but not likely without. Well... not now at least, but the demand could drive something into production. It however, wouldnt be cheap by any means.

[MonzaRacer]

Heck some of the current models have as many as 7 or 8 "control modules"
Look at it this way, the PCM runs the engine but "talks" to the TCM,EBCM,ICM, BCM and even more even the radio.
Most of the new systems run over a single wire network ,most of the older ones ran 2 wire system.
OK figure it this way, the cruise only reads a signal from the pcm/tcm. as most only control the throttle unless the car is fly by wire.
Remote control of the trunk,doors,etc is best left to a seperate system.
Why gook up a fuel injection setup trying to make it run a bunch of other stuff?
Figure the new cars are tieing everything together ,as one it gives tons of info to the ecm so all of the controls can fine tune things to the nth degree.
This is why all of the newer cars are more user friendly, tractive, performers and not gas hogs, super dirty cars.
Dont get me wrong I think most cars are too complicated, for the most part but some integration is good. Like tieing the ECM,TCM,BCM and the EBCM together gives us more control of the ABS (controled by the Electronic Brake Control Module) using it for traction control and pitch/yaw control.
This can also determne how aggresive the tune can be, if you have 4 people in the car you need a different tune, different shift points, etc.
The networked information can also control multiple displacement control, skip shift options, etc.
I got to drive one of the hybrid Sierras they shut down at stop lights, and this one was being tracked and even had multi displacemtn capabilites. VERY cool.
A friend of mine had a 73 Camaro with a LSx/Auto combo, and he had swapped in Vette style front/rear brakes, while out west he had the engine let go and went to local yard and was looking around for a new engine, he had rented a garage that was closing, had tools and a lift and was simply going to install a fresh engine.
He found one of the Hybrids and installed it, hooked up the Vette ABS to the system (his car already had been wired form an LSx car so a lot of the wiring retrofitted and we had used a lot of the power accesories from the other car and the bcm integrated very nicely and so far the onlything it has issues with is lack of secondary o2, the simulator is not working as we hoped, but thats simply adding in the back O2, and he now has Random Technologies converters. But he pulls up and the car simply dies at lights, it get 32 mpg on open highway. For the computer to understand his rear gears we simply got a board built to slow the count by a set percentage.
He runs Nordskog GPS speedo so he has no actual speeding problems.
BUT as for doing it with aftermarket stuff, then keep tuned to www.megasquirt.com as they are working in the can controler chip into the ecu.
WE were very surprized that the LSx car and Vette ABS blended with the Sierra electronics with little issues.
I work on newer cars everyday and I am still learning and I have one tool thats $5000+ out of my pocket and I still need to buy more tools and update that one.
Lee Abel
AFTERMARKET PERFORMANCE

[aggressive male]

What do TCM, EBCM and ICM stand for? What other control modules are there?

[70TWO NOVA]

Heck, it gets crazier, try 70+ on board "control modules" on the new BMW 7 series cars!

[aggressive male]

Heck, it gets crazier, try 70+ on board "control modules" on the new BMW 7 series cars!What a mess, what do all these modules do?

[70TWO NOVA]

What a mess, what do all these modules do?
They have a module that just controls the power windows, power door locks, lights, entertainment, electric trunk and door closing actuators, as well as a bunch more.

[EFI69Cam]

Its actually much more cost effective to build a network of intellegent devices than to have 100lb+ of wiring in a car.

[70TWO NOVA]

Well, multiplexing is much faster now that fiber optics is coming into the industry, but im sure it will still be a while before it gets to us.

[aggressive male]

Its actually much more cost effective to build a network of intellegent devices than to have 100lb+ of wiring in a car.Do you mean rather than having one module that controls many things you will save weight in wiring by having several spread all over the car? How could this be? You still have to wire all the modules together don't you?

[aggressive male]

They have a module that just controls the power windows, power door locks, lights, entertainment, electric trunk and door closing actuators, as well as a bunch more.And one for each power seat so you can hit a button so it adjust to a preset? And one for the power telescoping steering column and tilt to adjust to a preset? I'll bet with that much silly junk crammed in the car it makes it so no one can ever fix anything that breaks, they either live with it broken or get another one. Just like a video camera.

[Hammered]

Look here for a box that will work with your Holley and do everything you asked except cruise: http://www.directed.com/

I mated one of these to my Accel Gen7 system although I'm only using the alarm and courtesy light features.

[70TWO NOVA]

And one for each power seat so you can hit a button so it adjust to a preset? And one for the power telescoping steering column and tilt to adjust to a preset? I'll bet with that much silly junk crammed in the car it makes it so no one can ever fix anything that breaks, they either live with it broken or get another one. Just like a video camera.pretty much

[EFI69Cam]

Do you mean rather than having one module that controls many things you will save weight in wiring by having several spread all over the car? How could this be? You still have to wire all the modules together don't you?

An example is the door module in a late GM car. It controls the locks and the window motor. Instead of 4 wires to the lock and window motor you now have 2, power and data. It does simplify the wiring, and diagnostics.

[aggressive male]

An example is the door module in a late GM car. It controls the locks and the window motor. Instead of 4 wires to the lock and window motor you now have 2, power and data. It does simplify the wiring, and diagnostics.I see.

[Fuelie Fan]

Most of the new systems run over a single wire network ,most of the older ones ran 2 wire system.

Which standard uses a single wire?

[HsvToolFool]

Hey, finally my area of expertise pops up. :)


Which standard uses a single wire?

The short answer: all serial buses use one wire provided
you don't count the ground. However, two wires are used for
mission-critical buses to cancel out noise. CAN uses two wires,
while LIN uses one to save money. LIN may be the only non-critical
bus in modern cars, but I'm not sure.

<GEEK ALERT> Skip the rest if you're techno-squeemish.

Cars are an extremely noisy electrical environment. To cancel
out noise induced on the bus, two copper wires are twisted
together and the data signal is transmitted on both wires at the
same time. But one signal's phase is flipped 180-degrees so
that the two signals are mirror images of each other. This is
called "balanced" or "differential" transmission. When EMI
(electro-magnetic interference) from the engine's coil
or alternator affects the two wires, it induces an equal
but opposite amount of noise on each wire. When the signals
are then recombined at the other end of the bus, the noise cancels
out and you get the original signal with very little noise.

CAN (Controller Area Network) developed by Bosch in the 80's
is the main bus in most modern cars. CAN chips are relatively
expensive because the bus is relatively complex and robust.
There's lots of error checking and many devices can be
connected to the same bus.

The LIN (Local Interconnect Network) bus was developed in
the late 90's. LIN is a simplified version of CAN which is slower
and less robust than CAN. But the simplicity of LIN means that the
chips are a lot cheaper. So LIN is used for less critical areas like
power windows and antennas while CAN handles engine
management, gauges, ABS sensors, etc.

There's also an improved CAN replacement called "FlexRay" in the
works. I think only BMW is actually using it right now.

CAN, LIN, and FlexRay are relatively slow buses which are not
fast enough for multimedia. Since having movies and Internet
in the back seat seems so bloody important nowadays,
the need for mega-fast buses has given rise to fiber-optic
based buses like "MOST" and others. I don't know if any auto
manufacturer actually uses MOST in production, but I'm sure it's
not far away.

I'm a computer engineer. I just finished writing software which
analyzes the CAN bus, so I know more about it than I ever wanted.
Next I must write software to analyze LIN and FlexRay. The
hardware gadget my company makes to capture these buses isn't
fast enough to capture MOST and other gigabit-buses, so I'm
off the hook for the present regarding MOST. :)

[aggressive male]

Thanks for telling us about that HsvToolFool. Now is everything on typical modern cars controled with CAN, LIN or Flexray? Even the fuel pump and starter? Do each one of these modules have to have a big relay?

[EFI69Cam]

Hey, finally my area of expertise pops up. :)



The short answer: all serial buses use one wire provided
you don't count the ground. However, two wires are used for
mission-critical buses to cancel out noise. CAN uses two wires,
while LIN uses one to save money. LIN may be the only non-critical
bus in modern cars, but I'm not sure.

<GEEK ALERT> Skip the rest if you're techno-squeemish.

Cars are an extremely noisy electrical environment. To cancel
out noise induced on the bus, two copper wires are twisted
together and the data signal is transmitted on both wires at the
same time. But one signal's phase is flipped 180-degrees so
that the two signals are mirror images of each other. This is
called "balanced" or "differential" transmission. When EMI
(electro-magnetic interference) from the engine's coil
or alternator affects the two wires, it induces an equal
but opposite amount of noise on each wire. When the signals
are then recombined at the other end of the bus, the noise cancels
out and you get the original signal with very little noise.

CAN (Controller Area Network) developed by Bosch in the 80's
is the main bus in most modern cars. CAN chips are relatively
expensive because the bus is relatively complex and robust.
There's lots of error checking and many devices can be
connected to the same bus.

The LIN (Local Interconnect Network) bus was developed in
the late 90's. LIN is a simplified version of CAN which is slower
and less robust than CAN. But the simplicity of LIN means that the
chips are a lot cheaper. So LIN is used for less critical areas like
power windows and antennas while CAN handles engine
management, gauges, ABS sensors, etc.

There's also an improved CAN replacement called "FlexRay" in the
works. I think only BMW is actually using it right now.

CAN, LIN, and FlexRay are relatively slow buses which are not
fast enough for multimedia. Since having movies and Internet
in the back seat seems so bloody important nowadays,
the need for mega-fast buses has given rise to fiber-optic
based buses like "MOST" and others. I don't know if any auto
manufacturer actually uses MOST in production, but I'm sure it's
not far away.

I'm a computer engineer. I just finished writing software which
analyzes the CAN bus, so I know more about it than I ever wanted.
Next I must write software to analyze LIN and FlexRay. The
hardware gadget my company makes to capture these buses isn't
fast enough to capture MOST and other gigabit-buses, so I'm
off the hook for the present regarding MOST. :)

Cool explination.

What do you know about the GM VPW bus used in many current vehicles? Most of the modules communicate over that one wire system.

[Fuelie Fan]

Try searching on SAE J1850 to learn more about the vpw.

I need to learn more about LIN and flexray...

[HsvToolFool]

First off, I'm not qualified to comment on specific applications
like "what does auto company X use to control gadget Y".
I am not an automotive engineer and I've not studied
actual designs in production. I sell a generic gizmo called a
"logic analyzer" which electrical engineers use to debug and
test a CAN or LIN bus (or microprocessors, or RS-232, or
anything digital). I know how I would design things in a car,
but that may not be how an auto maker actually did it.


Now is everything on typical modern cars controled with CAN, LIN or Flexray?

If it hasn't already, that approach is taking over fast for
economic reasons. But they'll always do things the cheapest
way possible. Copper is super-expensive, but I'm sure they
analyze each design option down to thousandths of a penny.


Even the fuel pump and starter? Do each one of these modules have to have a big relay?

Well, these have always used relays even before all these dang
computers began taking over our vehicles. The size of the
relay depends on how much current it must switch on and off.
Motors, headlights, and heated seats draw a lot of current
and have bigger relays. A fuel pump...not so much. Relays
are used to control fuel pumps for fire safety.


What do you know about the GM VPW bus used in many current vehicles? Most of the modules communicate over that one wire system.

I've heard of J1850, but I don't know anything specific about
it...yet. But there's a signifcant market for J1850/VPW analysis,
so I'll probably be researching the documentation and writing
code for it later this year.


I need to learn more about LIN and flexray...

LIN is a simplified CAN bus without all the bells and whistles.
I wrote our CAN analysis first so LIN would be easier.

FlexRay on the other hand... It's much more complex than
any serial bus I've ever tackled before. It's like CAN on steroids,
or if CAN and USB 2.0 had a baby. I really dread writing
that code.

[paul67]

I've got a headache now:confused:

[HsvToolFool]

You and me both.

[nitrorocket]

If you run a LS1 with a BCM you can control all but the remote start... I think.

[viper11]

search the net for info on carputer's
the guys that use these have figured out how to incorporate them with megasquirts, entertainment units and various other controls
i'm looking into one to run my mega, dvd, mp3, gauges,and eventually gps
jason

[MonzaRacer]

What do TCM, EBCM and ICM stand for? What other control modules are there?

FYI:
EBCM= Electronic Brake Control Module
TCM=Transmission Control Module
ICM= Intrument Cluster Mondule(ie the dang cluster is a module).
Ok as for the networking of the stock systems was started by using 2 wire system and then as the networking setups went to faster chips and software and they went to single wire and are networked in a circle.
Just thinking of all this from the class I went to last March is gonna give me another headache.
Its not hard just a lot of complexity that you dont really need.
The reason for multiplexing the engine ,trans and brakes and such letthem all comunicate much faster and much easier so the car runs more seamlessly.
BUT its a biotch to diagnose if it breaks and why do you want to make something that will require you to learn a lot of unnnessesary stuff, buy several thousand dollars in test equipment.
Trust me if your setup gets too complex you will need a digital storage graphing multimeter.
I have one of the older Snap on Vantage and need to up grade soon.
The big problem is that diagnosing all the newer stuff you need to read signals rather than just voltages or resistances.
Signal forms are a must to learn, read and decipher in current applications.
I do it for a living and sometimes it sucks.
$50k in toolas and I still need to buy another $2500 in tools.
I just had to up date my Scanner for $1000!
Oh well its just money.