Has anyone considered AWD?

[Richz68]

I have a '68 Camaro and I was thinking of the possibility of using a Syclone Chassis and AWD drivetrain...... I realize that I will have to lengthen the Syclone chassis approximately 6 inches and channel the body to get it to sit on the Chassis, but WOW would that be bad ass...


Any thoughts are more than welcome!

[TonyL]

We've tossed around the Idea. I think someone is working on a bravada chassied car secretly.

It would be awsome to put a denali all wheel drive setup on a chevelle or GTO also.

[myclone]

I have discussed this with another member somewhat and while Ive never thought of tackling the project myself I can hit the high spots of our coversations for some FYI that may save your sanity.

1. The existing syclone/typhoon chassis is nothing more than a regular 4wd S10/Blazer chassis with some minor differences since they are AWD and not selectable 2wd/4wd. Translation=pick up any 4wd S10 chassis from ~85-94ish swap in the AWD transfer case and a syclone/typoon/bravada left front axle tube and youve got an AWD chassis. The AWD transfer case was used in syclones, typhoons, bravadas, and AWD astro vans so its easily sourced in the bone yard and there are a hand full of companies that offer rebuilt units for ~$500 outright. One note is that the tranfer case in the syclone has a specific output shaft so if you use a syclone unit you will need the correct slip yoke for the front of the rear drive shaft. Other than that all the AWD transfer cases are identical in the above listed vehicles.

2. The existing frame on an S truck is very tall so channeling the body over the frame to get a nice ride height will intrude into the passenger compartment quite a bit (the typhoon/blazer frame is basically the same only shorter in length). Be prepaired to build a custom frame unless youre 5'2" and the loss of head room isnt a poblem using the existing frame. Also keep in mind that a syclone/typhoon looks low due to the cladding(cladding=ground affects to most ppl) fitted around the wheel wells and the rocker panels hiding the frame and the gap between the tire and fender lips. Pull the cladding off a syty and you will note a ride height very close to a 4wd S truck that looks like someone stuck low profile tires on (which is basically what GM did).

3. Packaging the driveline will be a PIA Im sure as the front output yoke on the sy/ty/bravada transfer case hangs down quite a bit so you may have to build a higher trans tunnel and raise the engine/trans/transfer case to get enough ground clearance to even think about driving the car on the street. The track width on the front driveline may require custom A arms and half shafts to fit a decent tire on the front but I dont know the track width of an F body vs an S truck so some research here may turn up more info. The rear track width is simpler due to it being a solid axle so you could swap in a 2wd S truck rear which is narrower to get more rim offset and/or a wider tire to tuck in the wheel opening. 2wd and 4wd rears interchange and all the track width difference between 2/4wd is between the spring mounting pad and the brake backing plate. The ZR2 S truck diff is even wider than a run of the mill 4wd S truck BTW (its a 8.5" diff too compared to the syty 7.6").

4. The 4wd S truck chassis uses heavy/bulky torsion bar suspension and the torsion bars are roughly half the length of the entire truck. A coil over/tubular A arm suspension is available to get rid of the bulky factory A arms and torsion bars but its a tight fit around the steering linkage, half shafts, and other hardware up front. Its not a 100% bolt in deal either and requires some frame mods to install.

5. The GM/Barg Warner AWD transfer case is not easily adapted to any manual trans currently available. The syty crowd has beaten this subject to death and its generally agreed upon that it could be done but you will need a money tree(s) to accomplish it. I wont get into details here but rest assured it wont be cheap or easy unless you have a full blown machine shop at your disposal.

6. Front to rear tire diameter is critical so no big n little look can be pulled off without destroying the tranfer case in a matter of a few miles. Juggling tire aspect ratios and rim sizes has been done but the look is all wrong since the sidewall height of the front tires ends up larger than the rears which looks horrible. Most syty ppl that want aftermarket wheels/tires go with 275/40/17s on the front and 315/35/17s on the rear which isnt quite as noticable and the front/rear rolling diameters are less than 1% if memory serves me correctly. While you could theoretically juggle front and rear gear ratios to allow the running of different size front and rear tires Ive never heard of anyone being able to do it with the current selection of gear ratios available and keep the front/rear driveline speed differences at acceptable levels. Its generally accepted and I agree after seeing how the AWD trasfer case works that any significant difference in front/rear driveline speed will destroy the viscous coupling unit in the transfer case in a matter of minutes not to mention the vehicle will be all over the road and hard to control. Ive actually driven a 4wd that someone mistakenly put different ratio front/rear gears in and to say it was a hand full to control would be an understatement.

Basic S10 FYI stuff.... All S truck chassis are the same from the fire wall rearward. The diff in chassis between 2wd and 4wd models is from the firewall forward as well as the the extra cross member in the middle of the truck to mount the chassis end of the torsion bars in 4wd only models (its bolted in so its easily removed). As was mentioned 2wd and 4wd diffs is a bolt interchange but the 4wd diff is wider. An F body or ZQ8 steering box is a bolt in quick ratio upgrade. Baer makes a 4whl disk upgrade kit for the syty that is very nice but the same could prolly be fabbed up using vette components (thats what Baer used in their kit). I had their set up on my first syclone and it was a night and day difference compared to the stock brakes.

One thing I would highly suggest you do is either find a 4wd S truck in the bone yard or find a friend/neighbor/whoever with one and look over the chassis as well as take some measurements to see what youre getting into before you spend a dime.

Dont get me wrong as Im not trying to scare you off and it can be done with the right amount of money, tools, and talent at your finger tips but it wont be easy. I consider myself a very good fabricator/builder and I wouldnt attempt it and I can assure you any thread of sanity I have would be short lived if I did but if you have the capability then by all means go for it.

[blazer4corners]

What would be any different per say, you used a 88'newer 4wd 1/2 chassis and drive train short of the bolt pattern .Width i would think would be some what close....Me and my roommate discussed possibly trying this (awd) on a monte ss since the s10 and monte share so many like parts

[Matt]

I don't mean to be a killjoy, but why?

AWD is inherently heavier, it's more complicated, and thus more stuff to break, and more expensive to maintain. Unless you have some good 20/80 or so torque split you are begging to plow in the corners. On a launch it's a great deal more shock to the driveline than rwd. On top of that you are stuck with an auto (iirc) if you go with that setup as a base.

The only things I see awd good for are rally, and bad weather...and I assume you wouldn't do either with your camaro.

-Matt (former awd car owner)

[myclone]

I don't mean to be a killjoy, but why?

AWD is inherently heavier, it's more complicated, and thus more stuff to break, and more expensive to maintain. Unless you have some good 20/80 or so torque split you are begging to plow in the corners. On a launch it's a great deal more shock to the driveline than rwd. On top of that you are stuck with an auto (iirc) if you go with that setup as a base.

The only things I see awd good for are rally, and bad weather...and I assume you wouldn't do either with your camaro.

-Matt (former awd car owner)

I agree with Matt on 99% of what he said. AWD vehicles with decent hp/tq numbers are extrememly hard on transmissions when raced or driven "spiritedly". Not to mention a stock syclone weighs in at close to 3700lbs (3900+ for a typhoon) without driver and the parasitic drag from the extra drive line components eats top end power. Youll never see an AWD vehicle putting down a high mph number unless its packing insane power or the front drive line can be switched off, so to speak, after the 1st ~100ft in a drag race.

On the flip side and from one AWD vehicle owner to another :) there are benefits to be had for the right person. I do enjoy getting 1.5X 60ft times on fairly narrow 245/50/16 street radials (not drag radials) and can duplicate that on the street just as easily should I find myself in a stop light to stop light "disagreement". Other than the transmission the rest of the drive line actually sees less "shock" when drag racing since the hp/tq you are making is shared by four tires and their components rather than just two. Case in point is the proven fact that the 7.65 rear diff is weak yet there are a hand full of syclones/typhoons that regularly run into the 9.80s without breaking it. I doubt that diff would last very long in a 2wd vehicle that was capable of running those numbers.

While Im just starting my pro touring learning curve I do live in a mountainous area and have enjoyed the curvey roads/lack of traffic that living where I do provides and can testify to the fact that the AWD in my syclone has saved my hind end on occassion when I out paced my driving abilities. If I get into a curve too deep I can actually increase the throttle input gently and the AWD actually seems to pull the front end where I steer it. Granted doing something stupid then expecting the AWD to save you is going to result in wrinkled sheet metal or worse but with the 35/65% split of the BW AWD transfer case the torque split isnt the under steer issue IMO. In my limited experience understeer has more to do with the weight bias, CG, suspension set up, and narrow tires on my truck. Not to mention its just that...a truck and I fully expect it handle like something designed initially to haul manure or cinder blocks.

I would have to say that unless you are going for the "its different" approach I think putting yourself through an AWD project like you have mentioned is an expensive and frustrating endevor for not much return when all things are considered. By all means if you can do it and want to then have at it but IMO itd almost be like buying an airline just to get the free peanuts......there are usually easier/less expensive ways to get what you want.

[Matt]

You have good points man. On a *cough* non prepped track awd will absolutely work damn near any rwd car. In my WRX I got a pretty minimal amount of wheel spin, but I always did try to get some, and I made sure I had kinda bald tires when I went to the strip, just to buy some time on my transmission. As nice as it is that you can power out of a harry situation, a lot of people have a bad tendency of just getting off the throttle, which at least for the wrx, caused some nasty lift-throttle over-steer.

The fastest AWD cars I've seen still cut a very similar 60' times to comparably quick RWD cars. For example Wes Hess's Eagle Talon pulled around a 1.6 60' at a 10.30 or so ET. A buddy's Camaro on slicks cut the same 60' and did a 10.50 or so. Most awd guy's that I've seen have to baby their trannys.

So I'll change my statement:
Unless you really like street racing, or just want to be different, I don't see a point.

-Matt

...by the way a big part of why I did sell my wrx, and got my mustang was because I was tired of breaking transmissions. I had gone through two, and had some problems on my third, which really isn't out of the norm on a high powered wrx.

[myclone]

The fastest AWD cars I've seen still cut a very similar 60' times to comparably quick RWD cars. For example Wes Hess's Eagle Talon pulled around a 1.6 60' at a 10.30 or so ET. A buddy's Camaro on slicks cut the same 60' and did a 10.50 or so.

Very true.. An unprepped or just plane slick track will be where an AWD vehicle shines in legal racing and you are correct that a RWD vehicle that is running DRs or slicks will be right with an AWD vehicle at a sticky track.

My situation is a little unique that everyone knows a truck wont hook to save its life no matter what so with the AWD I usually turn a race that my competitor thinks will be an easy kill into putting him on the trailer and me going another round. Sneaky but I like sneaky LOL.



street racing, or just want to be different, I don't see a point.

Agree here also. While I dont street race anymore save for the occassional person that needs smacked around stop light to stop light an AWD vehicle is just about unbeatable. A high hp car even with slicks is going to have to pedal it to keep from blowing the tires off on the street but by the time that high hp car is hooked up and getting after it the AWD vehicle is 2/3 of the way to the finish. Id race John Force on the street.....and put money on it LOL..



...by the way a big part of why I did sell my wrx, and got my mustang was because I was tired of breaking transmissions. I had gone through two, and had some problems on my third, which really isn't out of the norm on a high powered wrx.

I hear ya... Im pulling broken trans number 9 this weekend and this was a trans I built with cryoed HD GM hard parts, The Beast sun shell, GM 5 gear planets, and some magic dust sprinkled on it. Broken input shafts own me :hand: .

[F70t/a]

Richz68,


I'm in the planning stages of making my bird AWD. still not sure if i will or not, but if i do i will let ya know and what i plan to use

[skeevay]

Agreeing with all that is stated above...I still think it would be cool! :cool:

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