Wilwood 6 piston brake caliper question

[staged67gspwr]

Hello guys,my car is currently a manual drum brake car and i have bought Wilwood`s 6 piston caliper set up for all 4`s,im gonna buy a new disc/disc master but my question is would it be a problem to run this brake system with manual brakes?any input appreciated.

Thanks

[70TWO NOVA]

Depends on the mc, usually the cars that run 4 wheel discs w/o a booster have a larger m/c bore diameter to increase the pressure on the system. You need much more pressure with the 4 wheel discs because they are not self energizing like drum brakes are so it takes more force to apply them. If youre gonna run them manual, just make sure you have the right m/c if you dont Id run a booster.

[70TWO NOVA]

make sure the m/c is disc/disc too because disc/drums m/c's have a residual check valve that holds a small amount of pressure in the line at all times which would cause yor discs to drag and wear out pads quickly.

[staged67gspwr]

Depends on the mc, usually the cars that run 4 wheel discs w/o a booster have a larger m/c bore diameter to increase the pressure on the system. You need much more pressure with the 4 wheel discs because they are not self energizing like drum brakes are so it takes more force to apply them. If youre gonna run them manual, just make sure you have the right m/c if you dont Id run a booster.


Well getting a manual disc/disc master is part of my plan i just wanted to make sure it would`nt be an issue because i dont think i can run a booster because of my cam profile.

Thanks

[70TWO NOVA]

If you wanted you could still run a booster and just use a vaccum reserve cannister and/or pump. http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=CRN%2D99590%2D1&N=700+%2D45701+115&autoview=sku Just an idea.

[staged67gspwr]

If you wanted you could still run a booster and just use a vaccum reserve cannister and/or pump. http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=CRN%2D99590%2D1&N=700+%2D45701+115&autoview=sku Just an idea.



Nah not really interested in runnin canisters and or pumps,why you think its gonna be an issue to run manual brakes?

Thanks

[ProdigyCustoms]

You can use the Wilwood 7/8" master that is made for manual brakes

[parsonsj]

I run dual masters with my Wilwood 6 pistons. Works awesome. 3/4" up front, 13/16" on the back.

jp

[6'9"Witha69]

You can use the Wilwood 7/8" master that is made for manual brakes+1


Depends on the mc, usually the cars that run 4 wheel discs w/o a booster have a larger m/c bore diameter to increase the pressure on the system. You need much more pressure with the 4 wheel discs because they are not self energizing like drum brakes are so it takes more force to apply them. If youre gonna run them manual, just make sure you have the right m/c if you dont Id run a booster.For posterity sake, manual cars run a smaller bore MC than a power car.

[70TWO NOVA]

+1

For posterity sake, manual cars run a smaller bore MC than a power car.
Yeah, thats what I meant. thanks for the correction.

[staged67gspwr]

Since i`m not a big fan of Wilwood`s master can i just run a GM disc/disc master for manual brakes then?

Thanks

[ProdigyCustoms]

I do not know of any other 7/8 bore masters. But if you can find one it should work

[Steve1968LS2]

I do not know of any other 7/8 bore masters. But if you can find one it should work

The 7/8 bore Wilwood master was developed specifically at the request of Art Morrison for their Vette.

That thing stopped on a dime with change. It's a fantastic master and the bore size is great for those wanting to run manual brakes.

I have a 1-inch in Penny (they didn't have the 7/8 yet) but I will be swapping to the 7/8 in a week or so. I've never been a fan of power brakes. :shrug:

[staged67gspwr]

ok cool thanks guys.

thanks

[6'9"Witha69]

I have a 1-inch in Penny (they didn't have the 7/8 yet) but I will be swapping to the 7/8 in a week or so. I've never been a fan of power brakes. :shrug:You will be happy with the results!

[silver69camaro]

I run dual masters with my Wilwood 6 pistons. Works awesome. 3/4" up front, 13/16" on the back.

jp

Same here. Can't get too much better than that setup.:twothumbs

[parsonsj]

As Matt indicates, you can't do better than dual masters with a balance bar. I can easily generate 1100 psi of hydraulic pressure, and the balance bar lets me tune the relative pressures (front vs rear) without needing to "give away" pressure with a proportioning valve.

If you haven't investigated the use of dual masters with a balance bar, you owe yourself the trouble, especially if you want to use manual brakes.

jp

[staged67gspwr]

Maybe you guys are right,i could`nt find a 7/8 bore GM style master all are 1 1/8 bore??does it have to be a 7/8 bore??


Thanks

[parsonsj]

does it have to be a 7/8 bore??7/8" is the biggest it can be and still provide enough line pressure to safely stop the car. I'm running 3/4" and 13/16" masters which provide even more line pressure. The basic deal is that smaller bores provide more line pressure. The cost for the higher line pressure is longer pedal travel. But ... longer pedal travel (which isn't noticeable to me) also allows better modulation, especially near tire lockup.

In the end, smaller bore solves the main issues for a manual brake, with the slight disadvantage of longer pedal travel.

jp

[staged67gspwr]

7/8" is the biggest it can be and still provide enough line pressure to safely stop the car. I'm running 3/4" and 13/16" masters which provide even more line pressure. The basic deal is that smaller bores provide more line pressure. The cost for the higher line pressure is longer pedal travel. But ... longer pedal travel (which isn't noticeable to me) also allows better modulation, especially near tire lockup.

In the end, smaller bore solves the main issues for a manual brake, with the slight disadvantage of longer pedal travel.

jp



Damn,then i guess i`d have to go with the Wilwood master and that really wasnt what i wanted to use.


Thanks

[gsxrken]

How long from tip to stern is the balance bar M/C? My Mustang is very limited on room between the booster and the shock tower. More than 7-3/4" and it won't fit.

[SHANE 73Z]

How long from tip to stern is the balance bar M/C? My Mustang is very limited on room between the booster and the shock tower. More than 7-3/4" and it won't fit.

Ken if you go with an aftermarket pedal setup, you can find just about any variation you want including having the masters under the dash.

If you want something that adapts to the stock pedal, CNC Brakes offers an arrangement that should fit. Talk to the folks at JMC Motorsports to see if they will fit.

Shane

[parsonsj]

i guess i`d have to go with the Wilwood master and that really wasnt what i wanted to use.Care to share why? Tilton is a similar competitive product, and has most of the same offerings if you absolutely have to have someone else's master cylinder.

jp

[staged67gspwr]

Care to share why? Tilton is a similar competitive product, and has most of the same offerings if you absolutely have to have someone else's master cylinder.

jp


Just cause i like the looks of the stock master and i dont have to use a freakin allen key to get it open,my buddy has one on his camaro and i`m not really fond of it.

Thanks

[Steve1968LS2]

7/8" is the biggest it can be and still provide enough line pressure to safely stop the car. I'm running 3/4" and 13/16" masters which provide even more line pressure. The basic deal is that smaller bores provide more line pressure. The cost for the higher line pressure is longer pedal travel. But ... longer pedal travel (which isn't noticeable to me) also allows better modulation, especially near tire lockup.

In the end, smaller bore solves the main issues for a manual brake, with the slight disadvantage of longer pedal travel.

jp

Well I ran 1" bore on my '69 and on the first version of Penny and the car stopped great, just needed more effort. I tried the Morrison Vette and it took much less effort (had the new 7/8 bore). So, 1" will work ok, but it's not optimum. At least from my experience.

[staged67gspwr]

Well I ran 1" bore on my '69 and on the first version of Penny and the car stopped great, just needed more effort. I tried the Morrison Vette and it took much less effort (had the new 7/8 bore). So, 1" will work ok, but it's not optimum. At least from my experience.


Well i guess Wilwood is what i need to get.

Thanks

[ponchopwr70]

I have the 13" front rotors with 6 pistons and 12" rear 4 pistons. I ran the 7/8 manual master. The pedal effort isn't hard at all, although the pedal travel is a little longer than I like. I tested my 60-0 stopping with my friend in the car and it took 2.5 seconds. I don't know how many feet that is but these brakes bite good. One problem I am having is if I do a decent burnout or fly around corners I get pad kock back (I assume thats what its is.) My pedal will loose half its braking ability till I pump it once. My bearings feel pretty good too. When I had the car on jack stands I couldn't get the any play from them.

[parsonsj]

Frank,
What kind of rear end are you running? Do you have c-clip eliminators?

jp

[ponchopwr70]

I running a BOP axel which has factory bolt in axels. I made a shim to go between the retainer plate and bearing because the wilwood backing plate is thicker than the factory drum backing plate.

[ponchopwr70]

One more thing on the master, if the rod was a little longer or if I had a longer clevis I would gain some pedal travel because the height of my pedal is lower than it was with the power booster set-up.

[andrewb70]

I have Wilwood 6 pistons in the front and PBR singles in the rear. I am using a GM 15/16" bore MC. Manual brakes. I love it. I use the dual bore MC from the S10 pickups.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

DORMAN Part # M105801

The larger bore provides the needed volume and the smaller bore creates the needed pressure so that it can work in a manual application.

I have the front port plumbed to the rear and the rear port plumbed to the front.

Andrew

[parsonsj]

BOP axel which has factory bolt in axelsReally? I've never heard of that ... I would have thought you were using a 10 or 12 bolt setup.

So your setup doesn't have C-clips holding the axles in?

jp

[parsonsj]

Wilwood 6 pistons in the front and PBR singles in the rear. I am using a GM 15/16" bore MC. Manual brakes. And that's a 3800 lb car. How stiff would you say your pedal is (easy on the jokes now)? :)

jp

[ponchopwr70]

Yea my rear is a 10-bolt same ends as a c-clip one. Just has bolt in axels, I think the bearing is 2.65 dia.

[andrewb70]

And that's a 3800 lb car. How stiff would you say your pedal is (easy on the jokes now)? :)

jp

I would call the pedal effor moderate. Firm, but managable. I am also a big dude, so your results may vary.

Andrew

[CraigMorrison]

Well I ran 1" bore on my '69 and on the first version of Penny and the car stopped great, just needed more effort. I tried the Morrison Vette and it took much less effort (had the new 7/8 bore). So, 1" will work ok, but it's not optimum. At least from my experience.

Hey Steve- I'm working on the tech story for the Vette brake system right now for Mr. Hunkins...... We actually used two master cylinders the front one is 13/16" for the front and 7/8" on the rear, with the balance bar adjusted to put a little bias on the front.

Managed to stop the Vette in 116' from 60mph (same as 07 Porsche GT3)

[David Pozzi]

Early 70's Fords with manual brakes used a 7/8" and 13/16" bore. They are cast iron and made for manual brakes with a deep hole where the pushrod goes. They have to be filed a little on the mounting holes to make them fit a GM car.
The outlet ports are on the engine side.
Is that what you are looking for?
David

[staged67gspwr]

Guys,i ran into another issue i think,it seems the caliper body is too close to the shock mount on the rear of my 12 bolt,im not 100% its gonna hit but its very very close,has anyone ran into this problem?any input appreciated.

Thanks

[6'9"Witha69]

Driver's side, correct? It is normal. Either flip the bracket on the axle and run it on the front or if you can move the lower mounting point for the shock inward ~.75"-1" you will be good.

And yes, it is a common issue.

[staged67gspwr]

Driver's side, correct? It is normal. Either flip the bracket on the axle and run it on the front or if you can move the lower mounting point for the shock inward ~.75"-1" you will be good.

And yes, it is a common issue.

Nick mine is an A-Body it doesnt have the staggered shocks like camaros,the problem is on both sides i`ll try to take a pic with my old shocks to show you guys.

Thanks

[6'9"Witha69]

Sorry, I ASSumed F body. But it is a common issue either way. Post the pics and we can probably get it worked out.

[absolom]

we had 4 wheel discs on our car with wilwoods all the way around, we had the 4 piston though, and the customer didn't really like pedal feel so we went with a hydroboost kit and it is much improved

[staged67gspwr]

we had 4 wheel discs on our car with wilwoods all the way around, we had the 4 piston though, and the customer didn't really like pedal feel so we went with a hydroboost kit and it is much improved


No we`re not talking about feel,here are some pics.

Thanks

[7TSS]

Are you able to mount the calipers on the front of the rotor by flipping the bracket (side-to-side)?
I've seen the Baer kits with the rear calipers on the front to avoid this situation on A-bodies.

[6'9"Witha69]

Are you able to mount the calipers on the front of the rotor by flipping the bracket (side-to-side)?
I've seen the Baer kits with the rear calipers on the front to avoid this situation on A-bodies.This is what I was suggesting earlier. Should work.

[absolom]

No we`re not talking about feel,here are some pics.

Thanks

i think i got to the discussion late, i was responding to the first few posts lol

[staged67gspwr]

Are you able to mount the calipers on the front of the rotor by flipping the bracket (side-to-side)?
I've seen the Baer kits with the rear calipers on the front to avoid this situation on A-bodies.



I dont think its possible because the E-Brake is there on both sides on the front.

Thanks

[$Mike70Z-28]

yo g i dont think there be a problem if you flip them ill come down to help you P.S. you know what i went through with my breaks

[staged67gspwr]

Well this is the email i got back from Wilwood
"Thank you for using Wilwood products.

The GM A-body is usually not a problem for caliper/shock interference. It is likely you will need to reposition the lower mounting point of the shock, as the caliper mounting position is not negotiable. I would look for a way to extend the lower shock mount inward toward the center of the rear axle to ease clearance. Feel free to call or write back with any further questions or if we can be of further service on this issue."

So it looks like i`ll have to weld a tab or something??
Thanks

[6'9"Witha69]

Is the rear narrowed? If you find out the stock length and measure yours you may discover it was shortened a little. If not, weld in a fill plate to where the shock bolts up and redrill the hole over a little (shouldn't take much more than 1/8"-1/4" to get it right.

[staged67gspwr]

Is the rear narrowed? If you find out the stock length and measure yours you may discover it was shortened a little. If not, weld in a fill plate to where the shock bolts up and redrill the hole over a little (shouldn't take much more than 1/8"-1/4" to get it right.



Nick,the rear is stock 100% never cut or altered in any way,original 67 chevelle 12 bolt rear.

Thanks

[1FstChevy]

EH I'd avoid repositioning the shock unless its absolutlely a last resort, thats something that you should easily be able to work through unless the Wilwood brackets are just cRaZy... plus I've read things about relocating shocks to the front of the rear and such negetivly affecting suspension geometry, not that classic GM suspension was an engineering marvel but still.

If its anything like the rear LS1 brake swaps on 2nd Gen F-Bodies where you have to use to left hand side units to compensate for the staggered shocks, then you may just have to custom fabricate e-brake cables for the right hand side, I have yet to do this myself, but I live in the brakes/wheels/suspension section of NastyZ and everyone who has fabbed their cables which worked great in the end seem to have come up with their own thing. So hopefully this applies if your able to rotate the caliper to the front of the rotor/wheel. & if all that isn't possible then welding on a sturdy tab a 1/4" over to mount the shock (like that mentioned above) probably isn't a horrible idea.

+1 on that Badass Buick! I noticed the Hotchkis parts underneath, and I hope those aren't AIR shocks??? My Apollo is staying original (less than 50k) PLUS I can melt that right rear tire for the full length of a parking lot, with the drop of a foot! The old SEARS tires I use for such antics scream loud enough to wake the dead...

[staged67gspwr]

Another stupid question,on the Wilwood masters i assume the front reservoir being the bigger is for the front brakes and the smaller rear reservoir for the rears?

Thanks