My 66 Mustang with Viper power

[spddmnjay]

Here's my plan of attack for my 1966 Mustang Fastback Pro-Touring machine.

Engine: Viper Gen. 2

Transmission: Tremec T56

Suspension: Viper Gen. 2 - independent front and rear

Rear End: Viper Gen. 2

Shocks: QA1 or Air Ride

Brakes: Baer

Wheels: American Racing 427, 17 x 11 rear 17 x 8 front

Chassis: custom to accomodate Viper engine/tranny

Interior: GT40 style dash


Some of you may ask, "Why install a Dodge Viper engine, suspension into a Mustang?". Before I started building this Mustang I had purchased a 1996 Viper GTS Venom 550 Hennessey and was absolutely blown away with the power and handling. I was always looking for some type of unique engine. And then a light went on (blink blink)! Why not a Viper drive-train? YEAH!! I'll do it!!

I also beleive that the Viper and Mustang are somewhat related due to the individuals who helped create them.

Lee Iacocca (Ford President) - Father of the Mustang
Lee Iacocca (Ford President) - Ford Total Performance founder
Carroll Shelby - hired by Lee Iacocca to create a perf. Mustang
Lee Iacocca (Chrysler CEO) - hired Carroll Shelby to create Viper

Look forward to hearing your comments...hopefully positive :6gears:

Cheers
Jason

[67SSDan]

I'm down with it. People are putting LS1's in Mustangs... Ford motors in Camaros... Corvette rolling chassis under Honda Civics... Hell, dogs are sleeping with cats.

Can't wait to see some pix.

Dan

[indyjps]

Im interested to see how the width issues are dealt with. the viper is a wide car compared to an early stang. Im all for it though.

[Cometose]

Sounds like a cool project, I'm digging it!

[syborg tt]

I'm down with it. People are putting LS1's in Mustangs... Ford motors in Camaros... Corvette rolling chassis under Honda Civics... Hell, dogs are sleeping with cats.
Dan

Really the Dogs sleeping with Cats cracked me up.

PS I can't wait to follow the build up.

[novanutcase]

Hey Jay!

Your plan SOUNDS great but, as indyjps has pointed out, you may want to rethink it interms of track issues and the such. When you narrow any type of suspension system your compromising it's handling characteristics unless your able to narrow it in a way that you can retain the same values that the original track width was able to provide. I'm certainly not a suspension guru by any means but I will say that, as much fun as it was for you to run the viper, you may be sorely disappointed in the conversion into your car once all the changes are made!
Maybe a better way of thinking of it is to measure the track width of your car and find cars that are comparable in width but that also yield the high performance characteristics that you are looking for for your project. This will also probably be much cheaper to do as the packaging issues will be kept to a minimum!
There are many guys on this board that can advise you as to what they think would be the best way to go so my advice to you is to proceed with caution and ASK A MILLION QUESTIONS before doing or buying anything!!!

Sorry to be a "wet blanket" on your plans!

Good Luck!

John

[twosaturns]

Really the Dogs sleeping with Cats cracked me up.

PS I can't wait to follow the build up.
I think Bill Murray said it as 'cats and dogs, living together...'


them vipers are pretty wide; howabout a widebody IMSA fastback stang? like that mustang that hot rod magazine did in the late 70s? what was the name of that thing?

[MrQuick]

Here's my plan of attack for my 1966 Mustang Fastback Pro-Touring machine.

Engine: Viper Gen. 2

Transmission: Tremec T56

Suspension: Viper Gen. 2 - independent front and rear

Rear End: Viper Gen. 2



Thats the craziest thing I've heard, you should fit in here very well. LOL

But yes the Viper sits a lot wider than the FB. Good thing is you have one to compare to. Sit them side by side. Take vary careful measurements.
howabout a widebody IMSA fastback stang? like that mustang that hot rod magazine did in the late 70s? what was the name of that thing? Thats exactly what I was thinking.

[spddmnjay]

I love the cats and dogs thing...that cracks me up! :headbang:

I am an Engineering Technologist by trade and love a challenge. I am definitely crazy and plan on making it work :rolleyes: with the help of others...HELP! Anyways, enough of the baloney...

The width difference between the Mustang and Viper is appx. 3.75" wider per side. I'm not sure if this is significant enough or not, but time will tell.

The Viper frame width is exactly the same as the Mustang. The Viper engine is 6 inches longer than a Ford 302 and actually smaller in width and height. In order to make the width similar to the Viper I would move the control arms in...to be determined.

With respect to the suspension setup, I have all the dimensional data in the Viper service manual and can also refer to the Viper right in front of me. The Viper service manual has all the fram dimensions and includes the suspension mount angles, etc.

I have already begun drawing the Mustang using AutoCAD. From there I will be able to design the frame and suspension setup. However, I still need assistance for which I will contact some members.

I'll create a PT garage for the Mustang and show you where I have started from.

Thanks for the input!!
Cheers

[67SSDan]

:postpics:

[KwikGT]

I have owned 5 different Fox Body Mustangs ranging from mild to wild and I have seen guys get Big Blocks in them with major fabrication involved. There has always been an argument for more cubic inches in these cars but most of the die hards say that it is better to stay with the 302. With all the Turbo, Supercharger, and Stroker Kits, you can get serious HP from these motors AND EVERTHING FITS!!!
As far as the I dea goes, I LOVE IT!!! How many Viper powered Stangs do you see? You mentioned that you like a challenge well I think you have found one. The 3.75" per side and 6" in length is a huge difference. You can AutoCAD this all you want but a good chassis designer can take some simple measurements and tell you what's involved. Good Luck!!! I can't wait to see it!!!

[jjump59]

Cool plan, I can't stop thinking a widened fastback body to go with the stock Viper chassis deminsions. Wish I could draw since it's really badas in my head!

[spddmnjay]

I have owned 5 different Fox Body Mustangs ranging from mild to wild and I have seen guys get Big Blocks in them with major fabrication involved. There has always been an argument for more cubic inches in these cars but most of the die hards say that it is better to stay with the 302. With all the Turbo, Supercharger, and Stroker Kits, you can get serious HP from these motors AND EVERTHING FITS!!!
As far as the I dea goes, I LOVE IT!!! How many Viper powered Stangs do you see? You mentioned that you like a challenge well I think you have found one. The 3.75" per side and 6" in length is a huge difference. You can AutoCAD this all you want but a good chassis designer can take some simple measurements and tell you what's involved. Good Luck!!! I can't wait to see it!!!


I totally agree whith what you are saying about the 302 engine. But I wanted something unique and then I bought myself a Viper GTS. Then the light went on. The Viper engine is absolutely awesome for power and ya gotta love the look!! If I were to install twin turbochargers onto the Viper engine I would produce anywhere from 1000-1200 horsepower!! Unbeleivable!!

I also agree with what you are saying about the chassis design. Do you know of any good chassis designers? I just spoke with Rodger @ Iron Works. He sounds like a very knowledgable individual.

Cheers
Jason

[spddmnjay]

:postpics:


I will be creating a PT Garage this weekend with lots of pics...however, I have not yet stared any fabrication.

[KwikGT]

No doubt about it. It will be a unique monster. Did you happen to see the TV show awhile back where they got the Viper motor into a 69' Charger??? I think it was on "Rides" or something. It wasn't easily done and I think the Charger has a lot more room. There is a guy in Seymour, CT that does crazy stuff like that, I'll get you his name.
PS. My dream is to own 1 of the 24 Venom 1000's!!! I'll settle for a 750R if I must but I WILL eventually have one!

[spddmnjay]

No doubt about it. It will be a unique monster. Did you happen to see the TV show awhile back where they got the Viper motor into a 69' Charger??? I think it was on "Rides" or something. It wasn't easily done and I think the Charger has a lot more room. There is a guy in Seymour, CT that does crazy stuff like that, I'll get you his name.
PS. My dream is to own 1 of the 24 Venom 1000's!!! I'll settle for a 750R if I must but I WILL eventually have one!

I have a PHR issue of the 69 Charger with Viper engine...very cool!

Venom 1000 means 1000 horsepower and lots of tires required. :drive2:

[Rolling_Thunder]

Have fun putting that in a stang.... V10s are huge...

Good luck!


ps. Venom 1000s are scary to ride in

[spddmnjay]

Have fun putting that in a stang.... V10s are huge...

Good luck!


ps. Venom 1000s are scary to ride in

Actually the V10 is only 6 inches longer than a 302. The Viper engine is also not as wide and shorter in height than a 302. Let the good times roll!! Yeeeehaaaaa LOL

ps. I'd love to ride in a Venom 1000

[spddmnjay]

Here is an AC Cobra kit car with a Viper engine installed. Select pictures to enlarge. Enjoy!

18614

18615

[indyjps]

the frames are the same size but the viper is 4 inches wider per side?? sound about right, where are you measuring?
my approach would be to measure from control arm mounting points to wheel mounting surface on each car, that will give you a rough estimate on suspension packaging room, now take the measurement of the V-10 across with exhaust etc at the widest point, that should give an idea if all this will physically fit into the front of an early mustang without widening the body.
Deep offset wheels will really help the cause.
custom frame work could start from there but if it wont fit it just wont fit. I think you can make it work, Im just interested in where youre at with the measurements.
I think the appeal of this project would be to build it as a "sleeper", nice p/t stance, great set of wheels but no real indication of what under its skin except maybe a pentastar or viper badge or something. dont know if this fits your build idea.

[Blitz]

I'm down with it. People are putting LS1's in Mustangs... Ford motors in Camaros... Corvette rolling chassis under Honda Civics... Hell, dogs are sleeping with cats.

Can't wait to see some pix.

Dan

Funniest thing I've heard ALL day, Bar None!


...I'm still laughing!

[spddmnjay]

Here is some pics of my 66 Mustang restored to original condition by the previous owner. I call this Phase 1 of the project.

There are a total of 5 Phases for my Mustang. I will upload pictures for the remaining phases shortly.

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[KwikGT]

You are crazy!!! You are going to cut this car up??? You could find a cheap 66 body somewhere and use that. Just seems like a shame to exterminate a beautiful original like that, not to mention all the hard work put into it. You would probably be better off with just a rolling chassis anyway with the amount of fabrication you will be doing. Plus, you could then make the car much lighter than your original with light weight doors/panels ect. Year One makes a bunch of stuff for the 66.

We've heard the saying "anyone can restore a car but it takes balls to cut one up" but in this case you have a historical gem that is becoming more rare everyday. You can put that Viper motor in any 66 Stang but you can't make just any 66 Stang into what you have. Once you take the saw to her there will be no way to get that back. If you aren't crying by now, you should be!!! :)

[67SSDan]

Oh wow... I was expecting a clunker too. Your car, your $$$ though.

Dan

[spddmnjay]

Stage 2 - I can't own a car and not take it apart...it's an addiction. As soon as the appraisal was complete I took out my wrenches and got to it. Plan was to install Dynamat, stereo system, American Racing rims, BF Goodrich tires, SS Disk Brake kit and some bling to the engine compartment.

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[spddmnjay]

Phase 3 - turn it into a Shelby GT350 clone. My buddy Harold Johnson (die hard Chevy Guy) did an awesome job with painting the new stripes and cleaning up the previous paint job. In order to turn a Mustang into a Shelby clone the following was required (exterior): remove F O R D letters from hood, remove Mustang emblems from front fenders, racing stripes (of course), GT350 side stripes and lettering and GT350 hood scoop.


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[Blitz]

...seems like a shame to exterminate a beautiful original like that...
:nopity:

j/k



That IS a nice car as far as it being showworthy, showroom stock but stock is blah. Hmmm...Stock-Touring.com. Go for it spddmnjay.

[GT500KR_Vert]

Please don't cut up a nice car like that. There are plenty of rolling chassis to buy cheap.

[CraigMBA]

Screw that. Buy the nicest car you can find and cut it to ribbons.

Anybody can restore a car, but it takes a real man to cut one up, especially a nice one.

Either way, you'll be saving yourself a fortune because the hard part is already done.

[KwikGT]

I guess SSDAN put it best when he said "your car, your money".

Do you intend to keep this car looking like an original GT350 with the Viper drivetrain?

What are you going to do with the interior?

[MZ 500]

I like the Idea of it I think to make it work it would have to be a mid engine car if you look at the pics of the cobra clone in the earlier post you will see that the center of the front wheels are in front of the motor witch may have gave them more room for the front suspension. The Viper's cockpit itself is set back to the point that you sit just in front of the back tire. In the mustang the center of the motor would be under the cowl.


Although not the best representation I happen to have a model kit of
a 66 Mustang gt 350 and a first gen Viper (I build models in the winter when I can't work on my real car ) I put the two bodies next to each other and lined up the rear wheel openings and the motor falls under the cowl and the viper looks to have a shorter wheel base as well. It would be a totally custom frame but I think it could work. I may have to model your Idea:) .

As for cutting up your 66 I would have a hard time doing because of the time that has been put into it to get it where its at.

From a originality standpoint I wouldn't worry about it, jugging from the resto pics there was some major rust repair done and if someone was looking for a true original they would not find it with this car. Don't get me wrong it's a grate looking car and I would be proud to own it.

I say go for it but do lots of research first.

[novanutcase]

I would have kept the car the way it is and just bought one of the new shells they sell. No rust repair! You only have to regap the doors and you can cut to your hearts content knowing that it isn't an original!

John

[spddmnjay]

Please don't cut up a nice car like that. There are plenty of rolling chassis to buy cheap.

I definitely wouldn't cut up a car like your GT500KR convertible. Your car is rare!! You are correct when you suggest there are plenty of rolling chassis...but it has been my experience that the rolling chassis available are coupes and not fastbacks. Basically most fastbacks have been snapped up and here's why:

Total 1966 Mustang production = 607,568 units
Total 1966 Fastbacks = 35,698 units
1966 Fastback units/total production = 5.9%

There are probably many die hards that say don't do it because it is rare. Definitely there were very few fastbacks built compared with the rest but it doesn't make my fastback rare. It would be a different story if it were a Shelby or GT. But its just a 'Plain Jane' fastback.

And hey, I'm not the only crazy person to tweak/modify a first generation Mustang Fastback. :rolleyes: Ford Racing modified a 1965 Fastback and installed a Cammer engine for SEMA show a couple of years ago. Year One also modified a 1965 or 66 Fastback for a project car. Boyd Coddington also did the same and I'm pretty sure Mr. Chip Foose.

[spddmnjay]

Screw that. Buy the nicest car you can find and cut it to ribbons.

Anybody can restore a car, but it takes a real man to cut one up, especially a nice one.

Either way, you'll be saving yourself a fortune because the hard part is already done.

The reason I have decided to use this car as a starting point is due to the solid shell. I've already sold all the original suspension, engine, transmission, rear end and many interior pieces. Ya gotta love Ebay for that. So I didn't waste my monies.

[spddmnjay]

I would have kept the car the way it is and just bought one of the new shells they sell. No rust repair! You only have to regap the doors and you can cut to your hearts content knowing that it isn't an original!

John

Hey John, I totally agree with purchasing a brand new shell just such as the Dynacorn units. However, they only make the 67 body style and not the 65/66. I may be wrong but I have never heard of anyone else making the 65/66 shells new.

[spddmnjay]

I guess SSDAN put it best when he said "your car, your money".

Do you intend to keep this car looking like an original GT350 with the Viper drivetrain?

What are you going to do with the interior?

With this car I am kind of leaning towards mixing the Ford GT40 with a Mustang and creating a Prototype car that Ford could have made (back in the day).

The Mustang will be all race inspired. Interior will have no heating unit. Dash will resemble the Ford GT40. I am leaning towards using the Ford GT40/Cobra Daytona Coupe/AC Cobra Halibrand style wheels with knock off hubs. No lug nuts. Color will be a dark red. Racing stripes are a very good possibility. Chassis will be custom with complete independent front suspension (front and rear).

I will have Kris Horton prepare a rendering of my Mustang and help me select color, wheels and stance...and stripe/graphic theme.

[spddmnjay]

I like the Idea of it I think to make it work it would have to be a mid engine car if you look at the pics of the cobra clone in the earlier post you will see that the center of the front wheels are in front of the motor witch may have gave them more room for the front suspension. The Viper's cockpit itself is set back to the point that you sit just in front of the back tire. In the mustang the center of the motor would be under the cowl.


Although not the best representation I happen to have a model kit of
a 66 Mustang gt 350 and a first gen Viper (I build models in the winter when I can't work on my real car ) I put the two bodies next to each other and lined up the rear wheel openings and the motor falls under the cowl and the viper looks to have a shorter wheel base as well. It would be a totally custom frame but I think it could work. I may have to model your Idea:) .

As for cutting up your 66 I would have a hard time doing because of the time that has been put into it to get it where its at.

From a originality standpoint I wouldn't worry about it, jugging from the resto pics there was some major rust repair done and if someone was looking for a true original they would not find it with this car. Don't get me wrong it's a grate looking car and I would be proud to own it.

I say go for it but do lots of research first.



That's so cool that you brought out your model collection to compare the two cars. :cool: I have already done some preliminary drawings using AutoCAD. I have measured my 66 Mustang and also my 96 Viper GTS chassis dimension, etc. Early predictions are that it will work!!

Here's how: the distance from the engine mount point to the front of the engine pulley for both a Ford 302 and a Viper Gen. II engine are almost identical. I would mount the Viper engine in the exact same location where the 302 engine was to be mounted. Therefore the firewall would need to be moved back 6" to accomodate the length.

I just spoke with Louie @ G-Machine and he is currently preparing me a quote to design the new chassis. Louie is currently building a Pro-Touring Mustang with a custom chassis and very familiar with the dimensions of the first generation Mustang. He has moved the firewall on his Mustang back 4" and suggests that another 2" is no problem for my car. I have given him a ton of information on the Viper chassis layout/suspension mounting points, etc. and he will be preparing a suspension analysis for me.

Stay tuned for the results!!

[ironworks]

Hay Jay It sounds like you have been doing your homework. But can I give you a few toughts. (If not don't read the rest)

Mating both of these cars into one is not the hard part with the big stuff, Engine, Trans, Suspension, Etc. Getting all the other stuff to fit like exhaust, radiator, Brake master cylinder, Throttle pedal and brake pedal locations, and a bunch of etc's. For instance where is the shifter location gonna be in relation to the seat. Or is there a mutiposition shifter avalible for the trans to help with that. For me brake and gas pedal location are crucial. shifter location is crucial also.

In a huge project like this you need to have a solid game plan, preplanning as much as you can before a cut is ever made. For instance you need to measure for tires and wheels, don't let your rendering determine that stuff, it is just a drawing and may not be reaistic. Most are not. The viper runs pretty big wheels and will need a pretty low ride height to make it look good. But a low ride height and big wheels affects the track width and turning radius. Plus rack selection and location become an issue. There are some other issues to think about like rack and pinion location, A arms lengths and header clearance and alignment adjustments methods.

This a huge project investment both finacially and with everyone's time involved and I have just a little experience with projects like this. i definitly don't know it all but I can tell you for sure your head will hurt at time trying to solve some issues. It sounds like you are assembling a great crew and I look forward to seeing you in the street machine of the year competition in the next few years.

Good luck, another hint buy a good camara that can upload pics fast enough cuz you will have a million emails once the project sgets rolling and you slow down on the posted pics. Just ask John, His Pm box is always full.

Rodger

[MrQuick]

Looks good Jay,

I wouldn't worry about cutting it up cause its a car you want to build and might actually keep when its done.

Plan, plan and plan.

[MZ 500]

That's so cool that you brought out your model collection to compare the two cars. :cool: I have already done some preliminary drawings using AutoCAD. I have measured my 66 Mustang and also my 96 Viper GTS chassis dimension, etc. Early predictions are that it will work!!

Here's how: the distance from the engine mount point to the front of the engine pulley for both a Ford 302 and a Viper Gen. II engine are almost identical. I would mount the Viper engine in the exact same location where the 302 engine was to be mounted. Therefore the firewall would need to be moved back 6" to accomodate the length.

I just spoke with Louie @ G-Machine and he is currently preparing me a quote to design the new chassis. Louie is currently building a Pro-Touring Mustang with a custom chassis and very familiar with the dimensions of the first generation Mustang. He has moved the firewall on his Mustang back 4" and suggests that another 2" is no problem for my car. I have given him a ton of information on the Viper chassis layout/suspension mounting points, etc. and he will be preparing a suspension analysis for me.

Stay tuned for the results!!

I have a lot of interest in the chassis design I have been around racecars all my life (oval cars mostly) I have Fiends an relatives that race in the VROA or known as Vintage mod's (http://www.vroamodifieds.com) till this year I was there tech director me and my wife have a baby on the way so I wanted to free up some of my time. These cars are a lot different than what you are doing but I can tell you there is not two cars with the same chassis design I have learned a lot about chassis over the years and it has always interested me I look forward to seeing this project come together. Heck I thought I was out there by putting a motor and trans in my car that was not offered in my car.

I am a machine designer by trade we use Solid Works 3d software. Its good that you are doing some work on the tube first it will help you get over the bumps later. I used cad to mock up some ideas I had to make the frame stiffer on my 71 Torino project.

[novanutcase]

Hay Jay It sounds like you have been doing your homework. But can I give you a few toughts. (If not don't read the rest)

Mating both of these cars into one is not the hard part with the big stuff, Engine, Trans, Suspension, Etc. Getting all the other stuff to fit like exhaust, radiator, Brake master cylinder, Throttle pedal and brake pedal locations, and a bunch of etc's. For instance where is the shifter location gonna be in relation to the seat. Or is there a mutiposition shifter avalible for the trans to help with that. For me brake and gas pedal location are crucial. shifter location is crucial also.

In a huge project like this you need to have a solid game plan, preplanning as much as you can before a cut is ever made. For instance you need to measure for tires and wheels, don't let your rendering determine that stuff, it is just a drawing and may not be reaistic. Most are not. The viper runs pretty big wheels and will need a pretty low ride height to make it look good. But a low ride height and big wheels affects the track width and turning radius. Plus rack selection and location become an issue. There are some other issues to think about like rack and pinion location, A arms lengths and header clearance and alignment adjustments methods.

This a huge project investment both finacially and with everyone's time involved and I have just a little experience with projects like this. i definitly don't know it all but I can tell you for sure your head will hurt at time trying to solve some issues. It sounds like you are assembling a great crew and I look forward to seeing you in the street machine of the year competition in the next few years.

Good luck, another hint buy a good camara that can upload pics fast enough cuz you will have a million emails once the project sgets rolling and you slow down on the posted pics. Just ask John, His Pm box is always full.

Rodger

I'm going to elaborate on some of the points that Rodger makes since you will be going through what he and I are/have gone through so far! The big stuff doesn't seem to be the big issue rather it's more the little stuff that makes the big stuff work that becomes an issue. What you're trying to do is fit, as Rodger would say, 10 lbs of crap in a 5 lb. bag! Will it fit? Sure, but with careful planning and the experience of knowing what will work and what won't! One of the things that I am most grateful for in my project is the working relationship I have with the shop. They have been able to steer me through many decision that have raised the level of the car and my enjoyment, knowing that it's the right move!
Rodger is also right in terms of the rendering/reality thing! How many times do you see a really awesome rendering but when the car is done it doesn't look as good as the rendering?
Camera? Yes Sir! As Rodger says, get a good one because you're going to be taking a lot of pictures and you'll get TONS of requests to post them!

Good Luck!

John

[GT500KR_Vert]

You be better off with a custom chassis and use one of the complete fiberglass body kits. It would make it kinda like a cobra kit car.

[GT500KR_Vert]

I forget who makes them, but they have the 65-66 & 67-68 fastbacks body styles in fiberglass.

[spddmnjay]

Looks good Jay,

I wouldn't worry about cutting it up cause its a car you want to build and might actually keep when its done.

Plan, plan and plan.

Happy to hear that you like the idea. And yes it will be a keeper for life!:6gears:

Cheers
Jason

[spddmnjay]

You be better off with a custom chassis and use one of the complete fiberglass body kits. It would make it kinda like a cobra kit car.

Very interesting idea. That is something I never thought of.

Cheers
Jason

[spddmnjay]

Hay Jay It sounds like you have been doing your homework. But can I give you a few toughts. (If not don't read the rest)

Mating both of these cars into one is not the hard part with the big stuff, Engine, Trans, Suspension, Etc. Getting all the other stuff to fit like exhaust, radiator, Brake master cylinder, Throttle pedal and brake pedal locations, and a bunch of etc's. For instance where is the shifter location gonna be in relation to the seat. Or is there a mutiposition shifter avalible for the trans to help with that. For me brake and gas pedal location are crucial. shifter location is crucial also.

In a huge project like this you need to have a solid game plan, preplanning as much as you can before a cut is ever made. For instance you need to measure for tires and wheels, don't let your rendering determine that stuff, it is just a drawing and may not be reaistic. Most are not. The viper runs pretty big wheels and will need a pretty low ride height to make it look good. But a low ride height and big wheels affects the track width and turning radius. Plus rack selection and location become an issue. There are some other issues to think about like rack and pinion location, A arms lengths and header clearance and alignment adjustments methods.

This a huge project investment both finacially and with everyone's time involved and I have just a little experience with projects like this. i definitly don't know it all but I can tell you for sure your head will hurt at time trying to solve some issues. It sounds like you are assembling a great crew and I look forward to seeing you in the street machine of the year competition in the next few years.

Good luck, another hint buy a good camara that can upload pics fast enough cuz you will have a million emails once the project sgets rolling and you slow down on the posted pics. Just ask John, His Pm box is always full.

Rodger

Hey Rodger!

I am always open to input from experts like yourself!! So I read it all and take it all in. I have purchased a publication from Dodge called Gen. II Viper installation guide. The book has all the information related to the engine and T56 transmission and what is required to install it into a Hot Rod or Custom Car. I have already drawn the engine and transmission in AutoCAD. I have also drawn the 66 Mustang original chassis so that I can get an idea of where the engine and transmission need to be placed. Needless to say I am doing my homework. Probably because I am an Engineering Technologist by trade and need to have most things figured out on paper, etc. before I begin. Plan, plan, plan!

I totally agree with your comments about the shifter and pedals, etc. I will also be determining the location, etc. before we start cutting. I have measured the foot well on my Viper GTS to determine what room was allocated for the pedals in relationship to the seat. I will then measure the Mustang foot well area to see how moving the firewall back 6" will affect that area.

As mentioned in a previous post, I will probably have Louie @ G-Machine determine the suspension geometry and control arm locations including ride height and wheel size. It all needs to work before I begin.

Oh and I do have a digital camera. When I started this project I didn't have a digital camera and therefore the reason for the scanned pictures. Phase 5 of my project, which I will be uploading later will have, digital pictures.

Thanks for the input and I look forward to any other info you may have to share. :bananna2:

Cheers
Jason

[spddmnjay]

Phase 4 - car is now back from the body shop with Shelby stripes. I've now decided to install a complete new drivetrain and suspension. I have found a Mexican 302 block that has larger main caps. Had add the engine machining completed. Purchased all hi-po parts for the engine and a Global West suspension sytem for the front.

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[spddmnjay]

Phase 5 - I DISCOVERED OVERHAULIN!! Well, not really but I just decided that I am going to build a car with state-of-the-art engine, transmission and suspension. Wasn't sure what this type of build is called until I read PHR and discovered this site!! I'm now building a Pro-touring machine with Viper power!! Yeah!!

I removed all the powertrain, suspension and interior. Now the fun begins. :woot: :git:

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[67supersnake]

I take it you changed your mind and decided to drop the idea for the Viper engine?

I can tell you from experience that it would change so many things, you probably would not be happy with the results. I just finished shoehorning a 427FE in a 67 (67-68 were a lot bigger, changed chassis/engine bay/ etc design). Coilover front & rears. TKO600.

Need help, just ask. I have a lot of sources for many products you will probably need. I have been through thorough investigation of R&P, front suspension, rear suspension, etc. But the 65-66 was a little different.

[MrQuick]

No, those are pictures from the restoration.

I believe it is still going through the sniffing stage.

Its going to be alot of work.

[spddmnjay]

I take it you changed your mind and decided to drop the idea for the Viper engine?

I can tell you from experience that it would change so many things, you probably would not be happy with the results. I just finished shoehorning a 427FE in a 67 (67-68 were a lot bigger, changed chassis/engine bay/ etc design). Coilover front & rears. TKO600.

Need help, just ask. I have a lot of sources for many products you will probably need. I have been through thorough investigation of R&P, front suspension, rear suspension, etc. But the 65-66 was a little different.

Hey Supersnake,

I am still planning on dropping a Viper engine into my Mustang. Currently Louie @ G-Machine is designing a chassis for the Viper drivetrain. I'll be sure to keep you all posted.

Cheers

[spddmnjay]

Here are a few pictures of Viper engine, suspension and differential. These are what I am aiming to install into my 66 Mustang.

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[KwikGT]

Hey Speedman,

What are you going to do with the Viper when you are done??

The next project???

[spddmnjay]

Hey Speedman,

What are you going to do with the Viper when you are done??

The next project???

Hey KwikGT,

I don't think I have mentioned this before but I actually have two projects on the go right now...the Mustang (Viper powered) and my Viper. Like I say, I can't own a set of wheels and not work on it.

I purchased the 96 Viper a couple of years ago and it only had 1800 miles!! It hadn't even reached the first oil change! :seizure: The Viper is in #1 condition but I still like to get dirty. I removed all of the interior to install Dynamat sound deadener. I will be installing an aftermarket stereo system that rocks! I have purchased a new set of rims and tires. I am also detailing the engine compartment. I was never happy with the Viper Red color on the engine (looks pinkish) so I am going to have them powdercoated with a much more vibrant Red.

Right now I am working with Joe Donovan at Performance by Joe to determine horsepower upgrades for my Viper. Joe is a Viper tuner and one of the best in the industry. He is looking at providing a custom camshaft for my Hennessey to increase the HP...even though it has a custom Hennessey camshaft. Joe is confident he can squeeze more HP from my setup. My car currently makes over 600 horsepower at the crank! The Hennessey package includes ported and polished heads, extrude honed intake, larger throttle bodies, larger intake and exhaust valves, increased exhaust diameter, custom cam shaft and Venom 550 valve covers.

Should I create a seperate thread for my Viper to document the changes I am doing? If so, is it acceptable to post a newer model car that really doesn't fit into the Pro-Touring description?

Anyways, to answer your first question, what will I be working on after my current projects? I depends if I am still married or not? :lmao: ha ha ha I would love to own a 2005 or 2006 Ford GT! However that would take many, many years to save monies for that one. Oh well, it is good to dream.

But in all honesty it really depends what comes my way. I would also die (well not really) to have a 1963 Corvette Split Window Coupe and a 32 Five Window Ford (American Graphitti). If these ever crossed my tracks I might just jump on them.

Cheers
Jason

[D Rock]

I would love to see a different thread with pics and more info about the viper. Looking foward to watching the mustang take shape as well.

[KwikGT]

AHHH!

I thought you were taking the drive train FROM your Viper.

And yes, you should post that project too. Pro-touring means performance to me. What's better than a punched out Viper for performance??? Lets see some pics!

You can always just throw a turbo or SC on that Viper. My friend's brother just put a Vortech SC on his otherwise stock 2003 Viper and it laid down 712hp at the wheels!!!

I KNOW!!! That wouldn't be taking it apart enough for you! :)

[curly]

Let's see more of the Viper and plenty of pics of the Mustang build... should be very interesting!

[spddmnjay]

AHHH!

I thought you were taking the drive train FROM your Viper.

And yes, you should post that project too. Pro-touring means performance to me. What's better than a punched out Viper for performance??? Lets see some pics!

You can always just throw a turbo or SC on that Viper. My friend's brother just put a Vortech SC on his otherwise stock 2003 Viper and it laid down 712hp at the wheels!!!

I KNOW!!! That wouldn't be taking it apart enough for you! :)

I like the enthusiasim about my Viper build. I'll definitely start a new thread documenting the build. Stay tuned!!

It's funny that you should mention the turbo charger/super charger on you friends Viper. I spent some time during my family holidays thinking about how cool :cool: it would be to install twin turbo's on my Viper. I can't image what 1000 - 1200 hp would feel like on a street car. Terrifying!! Yeeeeehaaaaaaa!! Just a thought for now...OH, don't let my wife know that I was planning my Viper build on our family holidays. :) :slap: :help!:

[KwikGT]

Sure, why pay Hennessey all that money? Make your own Venom 1000!!! As far as the performance? What more can you say about a car that has won every recent starting, stopping, and top speed challenge? That includes beating the Veyron!

Back to the Stang, check out (http://sn65.com/SN65%20story.htm) I know it's a different drive train but it is interesting how they went about it.

Looking forward to some updates!

[spddmnjay]

Sure, why pay Hennessey all that money? Make your own Venom 1000!!! As far as the performance? What more can you say about a car that has won every recent starting, stopping, and top speed challenge? That includes beating the Veyron!

Back to the Stang, check out (http://sn65.com/SN65%20story.htm) I know it's a different drive train but it is interesting how they went about it.

Looking forward to some updates!

Ahhhh ya gotta love the Viper :headbang: Thanks for the link on SN65. I have read various articles about this car and am truely amazed with the build. :worship:

Cheers
Jason

[Texas Hotrod]

I always thought that if I ever built myself a Mustang, it'd have to have a V10.
The Ford V10 is cast iron and heavy, so actually the Viper engine is the most logical choice. Not only as a weight aspect, but in performance and modability as well. The design of the Ford engine would have a better sound, but no doubt the Viper would be faster (speed is the most important).
If I had all the pieces I'd do it too. If it's unique (and cool), I'm all for it.

Good luck.

[bookends]

I'm all for it. I have a friend that does high end mustang restorations and currently he's doing an early production 67 shelby. he asked the owner to purchase a parts car to help with the resto. the owner delivered another shelby as a parts car, granted it was extremely rough and all the data plates were missing. but still.

[spddmnjay]

I always thought that if I ever built myself a Mustang, it'd have to have a V10.
The Ford V10 is cast iron and heavy, so actually the Viper engine is the most logical choice. Not only as a weight aspect, but in performance and modability as well. The design of the Ford engine would have a better sound, but no doubt the Viper would be faster (speed is the most important).
If I had all the pieces I'd do it too. If it's unique (and cool), I'm all for it.

Good luck.

Hey Texas Hotrod, I totally agree with what you are saying. My Dad asked me why I wasn't going to use a Ford V10? I told him that I honestly don't know much about the Ford V10 other than it doesn't seem performance oriented like the Viper V10. I am also not crazy about the physical appearance of the Ford V10. What I do know is that the Viper V10 is a work of art and goes like a 'Bat-Out-Of-H!#@$ ('Bat-Out-Of-H!#@$)!! And there are many high performance parts available for the Viper V10. All I can say is that if you ever have a chance to drive a Viper, DO IT!! You'll love the sound of the engine and the power! :drive2:

Oh, here's another interesting fact about the Viper V10...Chrysler owned Lamborghini when the Viper was being developed and so Chrysler had Lamborghini develop/engineer the engine for them. Chrysler was planning on using Iron for the block in which Lamborghini said, "Are you crazy!!" (well maybe not in those exact words) but Lamborghini did tell them that if they wanted a high performance engine that it needed to be Aluminum. That another reason I love the engine is that the Italians developed it. A work of art!!

Stay tuned for updates :bananna2:

[spddmnjay]

I'm all for it. I have a friend that does high end mustang restorations and currently he's doing an early production 67 shelby. he asked the owner to purchase a parts car to help with the resto. the owner delivered another shelby as a parts car, granted it was extremely rough and all the data plates were missing. but still.

Thanks for the positive input!! If you wouldn't mind giving me your friends phone number and email address I would like to contact him about the work he does.

Cheers
Jason

[Texas Hotrod]

I couldn't imagine the Viper having an iron block. What a heavy slug that would be, and who were the engineers that didn't think of using aluminum????? I'm sure it wasn't good, whatever the Italians were thinking.
The Viper came out after the release of the Ram V10 2500. I guess Dodge wanted to use parts that were already on the shelves.

The Italians sculpt the sand in the molds before the castings are poured. The Germans are just as stringent. I have 2 BMW V12 engines (I adapted a Muncie to one) that I will eventually put into something. No casting trash (flaws) here either. After seeing these, I'll never look at an aluminum LS1 the same way.

[MrQuick]

Actually the AL V10 Viper engine came out before the v10 truck version, which was a cast iron block.

You would be shocked by the under cutting they did you keep the Viper some what lightened. You start cutting yet Jason?

[spddmnjay]

Actually the AL V10 Viper engine came out before the v10 truck version, which was a cast iron block.

You would be shocked by the under cutting they did you keep the Viper some what lightened. You start cutting yet Jason?

I have not yet started to cut. I am still waiting to design the chassis with G-Machine. Once I have the chassis designed, I will put a plan together for fabrication.

The difference in weight between the Viper V10 and a Ford 302 is approximately 160lbs. The majority of the extra weight will be located towards the middle of the car which is all good.

[spddmnjay]

For those of you who wanted to see my 96 Viper GTS Venom 550 Hennessey build, select this link https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33878

Enjoy!
Jason

[MrQuick]

...your carzy dood

[spddmnjay]

...your carzy dood

Yipper...that's me :screwy: :jump::6gears:

[jason@gmachine]

The rumor is true, we are working on the development of this project. We are very excited and love design projects like this.

Funny Fact, Louie can recite the chassis points of these bodies off the top of his head, all three axis (x, y, and z). That is why he is the engineer/designer for the company!


Jason

[preston]

I'm starting to bolt parts on the 3rd generation of my tube frame '67. I moved the V8 back 15" - for reference the center of the carberutor is about 3" in front of where the cowl section of hte body starts (the cowl is now removeable). It has a "flat" firewall built that is exactly in line with the mating surface of the motor and bellhousing. The firewall represents the limit of pedal travel. I am using floor moutned pedals but I have used hanging pedals in the past. The gas pedal is the hardest to package. Believe it or not I am still using a bent up and re-welded version of the stock bellcrank style pedal. It actually packaged up better than trying to use a cable based setup. In your case you might need to go to one of the hyrdo setups or what have you. My seat and dashboard are approximately 10-12" setback. The head is just forward of the vent window. At times it feels a bit weird, but visibility is good and really the only thing you notice is the windshield seems far away (keep it clean) and if you're th first car at the light you have to lower your head to see the light. But as mentioned visibility is fine its not disorienting at all.

Also, ran the exhaust down custom rockers, otherwise you just aren't gonna get room for your feet and the bellhousing and the exhaust without doing something uncomfortable. This is why I was able to move the engine back 14" and the seat only 10", I ate up the headroom reserved for exhaust and also bellhousing removal. I can still remove the bellhousing and clutch, but I have interior plates to allow access to the bellhousing holes and it takes a bit of wrestling to get the clutch out.

Anyway, thought maybe that could help you a bit.

[spddmnjay]

I'm starting to bolt parts on the 3rd generation of my tube frame '67. I moved the V8 back 15" - for reference the center of the carberutor is about 3" in front of where the cowl section of hte body starts (the cowl is now removeable). It has a "flat" firewall built that is exactly in line with the mating surface of the motor and bellhousing. The firewall represents the limit of pedal travel. I am using floor moutned pedals but I have used hanging pedals in the past. The gas pedal is the hardest to package. Believe it or not I am still using a bent up and re-welded version of the stock bellcrank style pedal. It actually packaged up better than trying to use a cable based setup. In your case you might need to go to one of the hyrdo setups or what have you. My seat and dashboard are approximately 10-12" setback. The head is just forward of the vent window. At times it feels a bit weird, but visibility is good and really the only thing you notice is the windshield seems far away (keep it clean) and if you're th first car at the light you have to lower your head to see the light. But as mentioned visibility is fine its not disorienting at all.

Also, ran the exhaust down custom rockers, otherwise you just aren't gonna get room for your feet and the bellhousing and the exhaust without doing something uncomfortable. This is why I was able to move the engine back 14" and the seat only 10", I ate up the headroom reserved for exhaust and also bellhousing removal. I can still remove the bellhousing and clutch, but I have interior plates to allow access to the bellhousing holes and it takes a bit of wrestling to get the clutch out.

Anyway, thought maybe that could help you a bit.

Hey Preston...thanks for the info. Could you post some pics for me to see?

Cheers
Jason

[preston]

Here are a couple pictures of relevance from the 2nd gen car -

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[spddmnjay]

I removed the cylinder heads from my 96 Viper GTS and thought you might like to see what the engine looks like when the heads are off. Now you know why I want to install a Viper V10 into my Mustang. :headbang:

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[KwikGT]

Hey Spddmn,

How ya makin' out over there?

[spddmnjay]

Hey Spddmn,

How ya makin' out over there?

Hey KwikGT,

At this very moment I am concentrating all my monies and energies on finishing my Viper.

I am still planning to do the Mustang but I must free up some monies so that I can have G-Machine design and fabricate the chassis. I have so much money tied up in my 302 block and need to get rid of it so I can put the monies toward the chassis build.

I know that Jason & Louie at G-Machine are just itchin' to start on this project. And I can't wait to give them the green light. :naughty:

[KwikGT]

AHHH!!!

The money. What ever do you mean?:smoke: That's okay, I want to see the Viper finished just as bad!

[spddmnjay]

AHHH!!!

The money. What ever do you mean?:smoke: That's okay, I want to see the Viper finished just as bad!

I wish I had unlimited funds :help!:

My plan is to have Kris Horton prepare a vehicle rendering first. I will then take the build 'vision' to Louie at G-Machine.

I am preparing a proposal for a couple of local Chrysler dealerships where they can use my Viper to draw traffic in return for Viper parts for my Mustang.

[KwikGT]

Brilliant!!!

[dusterbd13]

any more progress on this one, or are you still focused on the viper (which is coming along great by the way)?

I love the idea of this build. if you were to use a rear mounted transaxle from a C5 vette, you would still be able to move the motor back some, retain s modest amount of footwell room, and get IRS to boot!

Michael

[spddmnjay]

any more progress on this one, or are you still focused on the viper (which is coming along great by the way)?

I love the idea of this build. if you were to use a rear mounted transaxle from a C5 vette, you would still be able to move the motor back some, retain s modest amount of footwell room, and get IRS to boot!

Michael

Hello Michael,

For now I am going to concentrate on the Viper and get it finished first.

I have purchased the suspension (front & rear) from a Gen. II Viper. My intent is to use the Gen. II Viper rear end setup which is a IRS Dana 44 unit.

Cheers
Jason

[KillerWolf]

Hey Jason,

I've got an COMPLETE rear assem from a Gen II viper. Frame, suspension, drivetrain, brakes, all mounting hardware. The imporant thing is the stock mounting points on the frame. Dodge did a great job & spent millions in R & D of the viper, I wouldn't mess with the geometery. I puchased these parts for a project that fell through. I was going to back-half the car & install this whole assem.

PM me if these parts are of interest. I've got them in the loft & I'll have pics soon. I want to sell the whole assembly as a unit. (also extra diff & halfshafts)

thanx,
scotty H.

[spddmnjay]

Well I sold my Mustang. This project is no more.

I recently decided that I simply don't have the time for this project and must concentrate all my efforts on finishing my Viper.

I want to thank all the members for their input and enthusiasim with this project :twothumbs

Cheers
Jason

[MrQuick]

well just fine, pick us up then plop us down. oh well. good luck with the other one.

[spddmnjay]

well just fine, pick us up then plop us down. oh well. good luck with the other one.

I really apologize for not making this a reality. Hopefully I can entertain most members with my Viper build. :6gears:

Cheers
Jason

[Restomod]

So you bought a real nice FB and took it all to hell and sold it part by part......NICE nuther one bits the dust................

[spddmnjay]

So you bought a real nice FB and took it all to hell and sold it part by part......NICE nuther one bits the dust................

Actually I sold it to a buddy of mine who is going to turn it into a restomod.

So it's not dead and will be on the road again. :smoke: