Anyone here do automotive electrical work for a living?

[Steve1968LS2]

Like the title says.

That crappy electrician that screwed with my car for 43.5 hours and wanted to be paid even though nothing worked is suing the shop where my car is.

It's stupid since I hired him, not the shop. But I guess he figures it's easier to get money from them then me. Especially since he never game me an estimate or any other type of paperwork and he doesn't have a BAR license.

Anyways, we're going to small claims court on Monday and I just though it might be nice to know how many hours it typically takes to wire a whole car. Keep in mind that I don't have AC, Heat, wipers, dome light or such and that he didn't have to wire anything in regards to the engine.

He only needed to wire in the tail lights, headlights, gauges, guage lights, wire in the sensors for the elec gauges, install a 12v acc plug, wire in 1 wire trunk latch and that sort of stuff.

What would your time estimate be for this type of job? Penny also doesn't have a stock fuse box. She has a switch panel with blade type fuses. Also, when the car went to BOS everything worked in regards to the lights and such.

Oh, I paid him at 13.5 hours ($405) but refused to pay for the additional 30 hours since NOTHING worked and he had no idea how much time it would take to finish the job. How can you work on something for 43.5 hours and not have a clue how much more time you need?????

Ideas?

[Steve Chryssos]

Keep in mind that I don't have AC, Heat, wipers, dome light or such and that he didn't have to wire anything in regards to the engine.

He only needed to wire in the tail lights, headlights, gauges, guage lights, wire in the sensors for the elec gauges, install a 12v acc plug, wire in 1 wire trunk latch and that sort of stuff..... Ideas?

Yeah. Try not to get hung up on the minutiae of electrical components. The judge doesn't know or care how long it takes to wire up a car heater. Focus on the big picture--namely the fact tht he provided very little actual labor and more importantly--nothing worked.

[6'9"Witha69]

And didn't stuff that worked before not work anymore?

I would say that all you wanted should have been done in under 20 hours. This is based on wiring (completely) a couple roadsters back in college, a few buddies cars and all the gauge, stereo, alternator, and relay (6) work in my own car.

[Steve1968LS2]

Yeah. Try not to get hung up on the minutiae of electrical components. The judge doesn't know or care how long it takes to wire up a car heater. Focus on the big picture--namely the fact tht he provided very little actual labor and more importantly--nothing worked.

Yea, I know.. short and to the point. :)


And didn't stuff that worked before not work anymore?

I would say that all you wanted should have been done in under 20 hours. This is based on wiring (completely) a couple roadsters back in college, a few buddies cars and all the gauge, stereo, alternator, and relay (6) work in my own car.

That's why I wanted to find another electrician.. to give me an accurate quote.

Yea, the headlights were dim (they worked before).. turned out he grounded them to the plastic grill.. lol

[Radlark]

Steve give Gman a call ( the guy you bought the 71 Camaro from) He does all the electrical work over at Barry's speed shop and that is his specialty. Check your PM for his cell phone

[68 SuperRam]

It only took me a whole weekend or so - and I am not a pro - my extent prior to doing my 68 Camaro was installing stereos, cd changers, alarm, remote starters, and remote door locks as a hobby for friends and family

This evens includes tracking down an error that Painless wiring had in there fuse panel - i.e. incorrect wiring going to the the coil.

Good luck.

[Damn True]

I think Zbugger dabbles in this, but I don't know to what extent.

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve give Gman a call ( the guy you bought the 71 Camaro from) He does all the electrical work over at Barry's speed shop and that is his specialty. Check your PM for his cell phone

Thanks, I just saw that you sent the number :)

[SatisTraction]

that just generally sucks!!! good luck on it. how is the car repair going?

I have wired a few full chassis race cars. with a transbrake, delay box, line lock, lights, gauges, engine, fan, etc, the estimate is 40 hours.

[OPM Customs]

Steve,

It all depends on how trick of a job he is doing. We wire our cars to an aero-level of quality, and that is niether cheap or quick. Planning out and properly executing a wiring harness is an art. It sounds like he did neither.

To "throw in" a wiring harness and make everything work, is probably about 25 hours worth of work. That sets aesthetics aside. Functionality only. You say that you have none of the creature comforts, so that un-checks a few boxes. I would say that you are pretty close to paying his bill off.

I have been to small claims a few times, and the judges seemingly care about one thing.....who is claiming what, and what that person can prove. He is taking you to court, so he has the burden of proof. The judge will ask him to show his unpaid invoices, and timeslips. All you have to do is say "This was our agreement (you DO have an agreement right?) and this is what has been done." If he doesn't have an ironclad time to date list of what he did, and a meaningfull explaination then class will be dismissed.

He has to provide the burden of proof, all you have to do is state the facts. Be armed with information though, witnesses from the shop, and pictures of the progress. It seems to me that he is going to have a hard time justifying his "time spent." If this is the case, then you are home free.

P.M. me if you have any questions


Clay

[Steve1968LS2]

that just generally sucks!!! good luck on it. how is the car repair going?

I have wired a few full chassis race cars. with a transbrake, delay box, line lock, lights, gauges, engine, fan, etc, the estimate is 40 hours.

Do you do electrical? or just on your own stuff?

Yea, the situation sucks and just takes what little time I have. lol

The trunk floor in penny is just about done and then the quarter can be welded on and the car can go to paint. Making progress, but wanting to do it right.

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve,
I have been to small claims a few times, and the judges seemingly care about one thing.....who is claiming what, and what that person can prove. He is taking you to court, so he has the burden of proof. The judge will ask him to show his unpaid invoices, and timeslips. All you have to do is say "This was our agreement (you DO have an agreement right?) and this is what has been done." If he doesn't have an ironclad time to date list of what he did, and a meaningfull explaination then class will be dismissed.

He has to provide the burden of proof, all you have to do is state the facts. Be armed with information though, witnesses from the shop, and pictures of the progress. It seems to me that he is going to have a hard time justifying his "time spent." If this is the case, then you are home free.

P.M. me if you have any questions


Clay

Thanks Clay.

Actually he is taking the shop to court and not myself. He has ZERO in the way of ANY paperwork or invoices. He doesn't have signed estimate. All he has a check where they paid him $405 on my behalf (I paid them back the next day). He also has a check from me that I stopped payment on due to the faulty work. He can't talk about that though or is screws his case that he was working for the shop and not me directly.

It's just a PITA...

[OPM Customs]

Steve,
He doesn't stand a chance. No paperwork=No case

Clay

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve,
He doesn't stand a chance. No paperwork=No case

Clay

Yea, his "paperwork" consists of a check from BOS for the 13.5 hours.. nothing else.

lol

He didn't even get the elect trunk latch working.. and it's ONE wire.. he said the latch didn't have a good ground but when we hit the power to the battery the latch popped.. so how could the ground be bad?

Here's what the electrician that fixed his work had to say (from the letter he wrote for the court)



Following problems were the result of poor workmanship & not having the knowledge to wire vehicle properly:

1) All gauges were hooked up improperly.
2) Wire connectors were installed improperly.
3) Grounds were inconsistent throughout the vehicle.
4) Auxiliary plug was hooked up with a dead short.
5) Lights were grounded to a plastic grille which would not allow proper function.
6) Alternator was wired improperly and was too close to the headers which caused a short causing a small electrical fire.
7) Joe Totten’s professional opinion; “Dean Hart should not be working on any vehicle until he has received proper accredited training.
8) Joe Totten wanted to make note that the work performed by Dean Hart had to be removed and completely re-done causing undue expense to Steven Rupp.

I may mount the actual letter and display it with my car at shows in the area.. should help the electricians business :lmao:

[Damn True]

I would see if you can talk Joe Totten into coming to court with you, and if there are any photos of the before/after so much the better.

[Steve1968LS2]

I would see if you can talk Joe Totten into coming to court with you, and if there are any photos of the before/after so much the better.

He can't but I have a notorized letter from him stating the above. It's the next best thing.

I would like to get one more quote from another shop on their estimate to wire a car that's light on accesories like mine is.

We want to keep it short and sweet.

[Bill Howell]

Be sure you supeona this Joe Totten to come to court. A letter does little to convince a judge, if he even allows it at all. Joe being there though will weigh heavy to support your side/defense. Pictures of improper wiring makes it easy to explain also. Never take anything for granted going into court, I have seen strange things happen there.

[Bill Howell]

He can't but I have a notorized letter from him stating the above. It's the next best thing.

I would like to get one more quote from another shop on their estimate to wire a car that's light on accesories like mine is.

We want to keep it short and sweet.

I guess we were typing at the same time. Notorized letter is worthless in Georgia and Tennessee courts, not sure about Ca.
Probably needs to be a sworn affidavit, be sure so you don't waste your time.

[SatisTraction]

I do not have a "business" but i have done a few cars for other people. i work at a power plant so electrical is my background. the race shop that i help out at also charges 40 hours to wire a car. it does take time to do correctly and even more time to make it look good. i like to take pride in my work!!

check your pm from me.

[Steve1968LS2]

Be sure you supeona this Joe Totten to come to court. A letter does little to convince a judge, if he even allows it at all. Joe being there though will weigh heavy to support your side/defense. Pictures of improper wiring makes it easy to explain also. Never take anything for granted going into court, I have seen strange things happen there.

It's small claims court.. in CA a notorized letter is as good as the guy being there.

The rules of evidence are pretty lax.

[MarkM66]

Was the fuse panel already mounted?

For what he did, could be done in an 8 hour day, with Union breaks. lol

[Steve1968LS2]

I guess we were typing at the same time. Notorized letter is worthless in Georgia and Tennessee courts, not sure about Ca.
Probably needs to be a sworn affidavit, be sure so you don't waste your time.

See my note on small claims court :)

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/selfhelp/smallclaims/scbasics.htm


You're not even allowed to have a lawyer with you.. :shrug:

[J-Rod]

Hey Steve,

I've got a buddy that was electrical department head for Metalcrafters for a while that might be interested. He recently quit to pursue other opportunities, but he has a load of free time on his hands right now. Let me know and I can get you his number.

Jared

[Steve1968LS2]

Was the fuse panel already mounted?

For what he did, could be done in an 8 hour day, with Union breaks. lol

Yep.. it's the same one that came with the car.

[Rolling_Thunder]

Steve - I work in a restoration shop near your neck of the woods (Hawthone CA) and have my ASE certification in Automotive electrical. I would estimate two days of work (16 hours) to complete the job you described (asthetics included).

[Steve1968LS2]

Though I should do a follow up.

Went to court and I was a witness for the shop. I had exact dates and paperwork.

He had no documentation and we found out no BAR or even a business license.

I told the Judge the guy should be suing me, since I hired him. Later the judge said "Why would Mr Rupp come a hundred miles to this court to put himself in danger by saying he should be sued?"

Anyways, last week we got the note that case was dismissed :woot:

[PRO TC]

Yea, the headlights were dim (they worked before).. turned out he grounded them to the plastic grill.. lol
steve i think that says it all. lol
BARRY

[Jim Nilsen]

Let's all hope that guy's like that don't get any better at doing paperwork and going to court than they are at doing the job, I'm glad it all worked out and maybe he will either get a lot smarter or a lot less business:cheers:

[AUTODYNAMICS]

any questions you have i can anwser and figure out... im a auto electrician....Pete

[GetMore]

I think you should have sued him for the faulty work. Your damages should have been what it cost for the shop to redo the wiring.
Typically this would be called a countersuit, but since he sued the shop, and you would sue him, I'm not sure that term applies.

[strangler]

Sounds like your taillights probally weren't working when you got hit..... Countersuit!