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View Full Version : Please Help! Suspension Plans..



touring67
12-30-2004, 08:29 PM
As one can see I am a new member to this forum, but I am not a new fan of the Pro-Touring plan. My current project and problem is my 67 Camaro that I want to do in the pro-touring fashion. I have been looking at all sorts of suspension setups and can't decide what to use yet. I have been leaning towards a triangulated 4 bar setup in the rear and in the front I was looking at swapping my front clip for a good front clip that is IFS with rack and pinion steering, tubular A-arms, and coilovers that offers better geometry all around including RCH, caster, camber curve and no bumpsteer. And naturally I want to have large tires on all corners of the car with some Budnik wheels. I don't think that money should be a limiting factor in this equation. I just want what is best for suspension in my car to handle some road events and aggressive street driving.

Tom Nickols
12-31-2004, 04:25 PM
If money's no object, or in other words do it properly...

I'd go (and am going to) 4 bar with watts linkage. There is a problem to this cunning plan, actually more than one.

With the 4 Bar, if you use rod ends they be eaten fairly quickly, so you could use poly rod ends but they could end up un-doing them selves. So this is what I propose make sure you get the thing working right then tread lock poly ends to your 4 bars. Use an anti roll bar and you'll help reduce the twist on the rod ends.
The 4 bars need to be equal length and on top of each other (not like the 'mule' as they WILL bind). Putting them as far out-board as possible is a good idea but you'll run in to problems with frame rails and tubs if you use them.

I think watts link may be best, but you can't just go and buy one for your Camaro. many people will say use a pan hard rod but I'm currently un convinced. To make a PH rod work well it has to be quite long which will probably mess with your exhausts and it will never be right as it allows some (small) side to side movement. It will make your rear endbehave odly, although you may not notice. (try to make a free body diagram to visualise the forces and geometry involved)
I believe it should be fairly easy to make your own watts, it'll work idealy and it can be a smally package in width. You could even adapt the Evolutionmotorsport Mustang assy. Not my prefered route as its expensive and looks a little un-stiff/strong. Its interesting to look at though.

It would be nice to use a IRS but as the corvette IRS is a nasty piece of junk (using the half shaft as the upper link- arhhhh, Colin chapman (Lotus) junked this after S1 Esprit, 'cos it's not right) You say money's no object... Convert the 'vette IRS to wish bones, that'd be interesting.

I've been thinking this problem over for over a year now.. want to get it right.

spanky the wondermuffin
12-31-2004, 06:59 PM
no such thing as 'the best'.handling all YOU can throw at it might not be the same as what someone else could toss it's way.buy an ex-nascar or trans am car,cut the body off.gut and cut the camaro,combine parts A and B and you'll have something that would catch just about whatever anyone throws at it.cheap.and don't underestimate what good suspension is already there.a few tweaks and a stock based suspension does quite well.if money is really no object fill the trunk with money(real money,eh)and ship it to detroit speed or wayne due.my subframe cost fourty-four dollars.see the pic under the heading 'suspension pics' below.

Piet
12-31-2004, 07:15 PM
Welcome touring67! Freezing our tailfeathers... in Edmonton!
Are you thinking of having stuff shipped up here? or buying locally?

Good to see you online

Tom Nickols
12-31-2004, 07:20 PM
I agree with the front

untill the after market front clips are tested (on a dyno) there seems little point changing to a new clip. old may be heavy but it 'looks' stiff. best just relocate the upper arms as Detroit speed and eng.

touring67
01-01-2005, 11:08 AM
Thanks for the responses. I would like to apologize for doing the 'list of parts, is this good?' I sort of posted before I had read very much...and I am at "home" for new years and the interenet here is just dial up and I am runnin' around quite a bit so I didn't have much of a chance to read some of the great advice that is already out there. About the ex nascar style car it sounds good to have a solid frame and whatnot but I was hoping to make it quite solid and handle quite well with as little chopping of the original body as I could. I'm sure there's gonna be some cutting and whatnot but I'd like to keep it at the minimum while still attaining great handling. And as for IRS it looks great and works great but I do intend to also take this car to our little track up here. I'm sure IRS could be made to launch very well and do all great things but for some reason reading about IRS in stock form cars musta' made me shy away from it. I'll have to read more and see what is being done to make these cars less prone to wheelhop. I really look forward to learning more about PT ideas and thank all of you for helping out...next time I'll read a little before asking.
And Piet, I hadn't decided for sure but I think I would rather ship in than have work done in Edmonton, since I have not seen or heard of a lot of shops that delve into what we are looking for on our cars. I've talked to some and I didn't get a real confident feel about some of the places. Now it could be that I'm just looking in the wrong places though. Do you have any shops that you have used with success? For my engine machining I used Pro Stock Performance and Machine and he referred me to a guy who does chassis work, tubs, etc. Have you heard of Stormy's Street Rods?? It's good to finally find a place that has all the knowledge I'm looking for. Anyway, I think this reply is quite long enough for now. I'll check into DSE for now and come back soon!

touring67
01-04-2005, 08:00 PM
Anyhow, I have gone and read the archives and somewhat taught myself what to look for. I believe that I have changed my mind almost completely when it comes to my choices. A lot more options are open than I was aware of and there are a lot more things to consider than just a shiny subframe with powder coated arms hehe. What I would be looking for is still likely a bolt-in subframe with the improved geometry and coilovers. It would be best to have a higher height of roll center and to drop the COG if possible and shave some pounds. Hopefully it is at least as stiff as the stock one. If it had up to 6 degrees of caster designed in that would be good as well as having the proper camber geometry and no bumpsteer. Rack and Pinion steering would also be a benefit. Sounds like a tall bill but I'm sure that this is what many pro-touring guys are looking to use on their cars. Any front subframe that fits this bill?? I have been looking quite seriously at Wayne's stuff because it seems to be highly regarded here and has the updated geometry, as well as being close to where I live. This makes it a pretty feasible option I think. As far as a Triangulated 4 bar, I would like to know if it is possible to keep the rear seat and since I don't mind too much about the trunk being cut up *however this is an all original sheetmetal car including floors, fenders, pans, rockers, everything... :( * I have really started to look at a 3 link because when properly set up it doesn't really offer any compromises. If I could get a look at what Mean 69 is doing for that end it would be really cool. Top it off with some DSE deep tubs and subframe connectors and the suspension 'mods' should be getting closer to being done....then for the tuning....

kracker
01-05-2005, 08:49 PM
Tom,
Whats a dyno have to with a front clip??

MrQuick
01-06-2005, 11:05 PM
it a set up that test suspensions through all of its motions. You can test effects of link or arm mounting points and camber changes.

Poopy
01-08-2005, 12:17 PM
Speaking of triangulated 4 links, I found this today in a 77 monte carlo I was tearing apart:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Any feedback on using something like this? Could it be beefed up and made to work?

One cool thing is how the link mounts are cast into the housing even though its just a lil 10 bolt:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

dennis68
01-08-2005, 04:36 PM
UUUGGGHHH!! Poopy, the Generals OE converging 4-link is almost the worst suspension design ever put in an automobile from a handling aspect. The straight line guys don't mind them much for their inherent anti-squat characteristics. If you want to turn that thing has got to go.

Poopy
01-08-2005, 05:24 PM
Thanks! Thats what I wanted to know...LOL! :yeah:

Tom Nickols
01-08-2005, 08:17 PM
Kracker,

Dynos, are not just for engines. You can have a dyno for valve springs, cylinder heads (for valve train), shocks anything where you want to study hardware. They enable you to clearly define input and output data. In this case measure stiffness of the frames by loading them all up fairly with the same conditions, unlike on a car.