69 Camaro Suspension package help!

[cheapthrillz]

I know that many of you on pro-touring are very smart when it comes to suspension setup. I am not one of you. Finishing up restoring my father's camaro and we are running out of money. My father likes the pro-touring look of many of your cars, and of course now he wants his to look like that. I've looked into Hotchkis, AirRide Tech, Eibach, and many other suspension setups. He wants it to have a killer aggressive stance without being too low (lots of speed bumps in our neighborhood). Just wondering if ya'll had any ideas on a good setup that won't break the bank. We HAVE to buy shocks and springs, so any other ideas for good parts that would help with ride quality and handling will be wonderful! Thanks.

JC

[Lowend]

Start off by reading this
http://www.pozziracing.com/first_gen_suspension_geome.htm#Re-located%20upper%20mount

[Project69]

Well i also did a budget suspension, with Hotchkis drop springs 2'' front, and 1-1/2'' rear, with poly bushings, and koni shocks. it handles great with my 255 front and 285 rear tires. and i dont have to worry about hitting speed bumps. Heres how it sits now.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2007/07/side-1.jpg
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2007/05/rob0011-1.jpg

[cheapthrillz]

The Guldstrand Mod is not really an option as of now because the subframe has been seam welded and painted already. But one positive note for Hotchkis is good. As of now, the car is in a million pieces, so we have some room to work. I think I need to mention something.... this car is not a PT car. He is building it to be a nice show car that he car drive around on the weekends, but still have good handling.

So far I have only found rear lowering leaf springs through hotchkis. Does any other company make them? The hotchkis springs are reasonablly priced and i think that they would do the trick. So then what do we do about shocks? Everybody knows to stay away from KYBs, and if it were my car, I would have no problem putting bilstein or varishocks on it, but it is not my car. Are the Edelbrock shocks any good?

Another thing that I am not to sure about is the swaybar. The one on it is about as big around as my little finger and looks like I could bend it in half with my hands. I've heard that if you have springs with a high spring rate, then you want to put a smaller sway bar on, on the flip side, if you put soft springs then you need a bigger swaybar.... is this correct? What is the difference between a hollow and solid swaybar? There are just so many different options that we have, I just need someone to point me in the right direction. Thanks guys.

[Lowend]

The bottom line with the 1st gen is that the front suspension geometry needs to be corrected if you expect the car to handle well.
Here is how I would approach things from a budget standpoint.

1) Global West Upper A-arms. They are relatively cheap, good quality and will correct your suspension geometry without cutting up the frame. Use del-a-lum lower a-arm bushings instead of a tubular lower arm.
2) Hotchkis front springs - good fitment and predictable ride height without being in the weeds. A wise man would also order the matching Hotchkis (Blistein built) shocks)
3) Sway bar is not as critical in situations like this as you would think. Frankly the car already will have understeer, a larger front bar will just further agravate this.
4) Solid subframe bushings - There are a few compaines who make these, they all do about the same thing (expect the Comp Engineerings which suck). You need a solid connection between the body and subframe

[Rick Dorion]

Add in a taller UBJ from SC&C which will help in lieau of the G-mod.

[David Pozzi]

A kit like Hotchkis TVS seems to be geared towards a car that has very high perf street rubber, to DOT race tires high horsepower and big brakes.

It is soft enough to work with lower traction tires but if your car will have just average old street rubber and a fairly stock ride height, then you can probably go with closer to stock rate springs and get a better ride quality using more suspension travel.

In other words, if your tires can't generate high G loads, then a softer spring combo will still keep the car within needed limits.

All the Hotchkis type kits have stiffer springs front and rear, AND stiffer anti-roll bars. On a 69 some bars sold separately are larger than 1" but for use with Hotchkis springs, 1" solid, or 1 1/8" hollow are about the maximum.
David

I'm working on my wife's 68 Camaro reciently, it's going to be a street cruiser so we are not going with stiff springs, only slightly stiffer front coils and adding thicker antiroll bars.

David

[cheapthrillz]

Where are you getting your coils from, and will it give your wife's car an aggressive stance? Are you going to use stock springs in the back? I like the idea of this for my father because he doesn't need a racecar.... the original springs are just worn out and the car sags on all four corners. My question is that will the car be at stock height or lower?

We're getting somewhere now.... Thanks for ya'lls help. Keep it coming!

[Project69]

If your not worried about performance, then just get stock coils, and cut them and de-arched rear springs, with Re-valved bilstein shocks all around. and an aftermarket sway bar for the front.

[cheapthrillz]

If your not worried about performance, then just get stock coils, and cut them and de-arched rear springs, with Re-valved bilstein shocks all around. and an aftermarket sway bar for the front.


When you cut a stock spring that has a very low spring rate, doesn't that run the risk of bottoming out? That's just what I've heard. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by de-arched... could you explain that or point me towards a thread that can. I've been doing more thinking and talking on the side and I think that this sounds like a good idea. I'm not looking for handling nirvana, just better than worn out springs an shocks. This would also be good because he did already order stock replacement springs, but we were going to sell them and get new ones if that is what we dicided to do. I think that for a car that just drives on the weekends (to the car show) and stays in the garage during the week, that this would be ok if cutting a 1/2 coil or so is not a problem.

I hate the idea of a "show" car, so I got my dad to drive Wes's (Formula's) formula with the air ride and he loved it. He remembered back on how sorry the previous ride quality was, and said that he wanted me to figure out how to make it better. Thanks for your input!

JC

[EFI69Cam]

Not a single mention of tall ATS spindles? they are better than the g-mod. For a budget suspension, a pair of global west uppers for the + caster and the ATS tall spindles are all you need.

[NvrDun71]

Not a single mention of tall ATS spindles? they are better than the g-mod. For a budget suspension, a pair of global west uppers for the + caster and the ATS tall spindles are all you need.

Not sure if I would call that a "BUDGET" setup....

[cheapthrillz]

Not a single mention of tall ATS spindles? they are better than the g-mod. For a budget suspension, a pair of global west uppers for the + caster and the ATS tall spindles are all you need.

The SSBC brake kit that we ordered came with new spindels.... I'm not gonna be able to convince him to purchase another set.... Thanks for the help though.

[68Formula]

You backing us into a corner here. Can't do the g-mod (nice budget option) and ATS spindles are probably not in your budget. The best thing you can do is fix the geometry. Otherwise you're stuck with ultra stiff springs which are not going to be fun on a basic street car.

If you want to go budget street car, do the G-mod, put in delrin control arm bushings (upper and lower), some 400-500lb/in springs, and at least a 1" front bar. In the back use some Eaton springs and the sway bar is probably not necessary. Use solid body mounts and add subframe connectors.

If you want the appearance of a lowered car while keeping good ground clearance, one trick is to increase the overall tire diameter to fill the wheel gap. Try a 245/45R18 on front and a 275/40R18 on the rear. This will give you an extra 1/2" ground clearance.

[Project69]

camaroboy69 has the same suspension im talking about send him a PM and he'll anwser your every question.

[David Pozzi]

Here is a pic of our 68 Camaro.
We just got it, and are still developing the suspension for it. This is NOT a Pro-Touring car.
Goals are a nice street cruiser and no autocross or open track, which is a big change for us!

We do want decent street manners however with a good ride and acceptable ground clearance over speed bumps and no bottoming out.

You can get a PT look with larger wheels and tires but keeping some of the suspension tuning we are doing and still have good street manners with less sacrifice in ride.

We plan on upping the front tire size from 215x60x15 now to 235x60x15 to match the rear tires, and lower the rear 1" with lowering blocks. It appears to have replacement leaf springs that are on the tall side. It doesn't look so bad in the photo, but the rear is a lot higher than the front. We want 1" to 1.5" higher in the rear, it's aprox 3" now.

Front coils are Moog 6308 and the front wheel lip to hub center height is 13.75" Rear is, 16". The 6308 is 380 lbs/inch, stock coils are 325lb/in, most tuner springs are 600 lbs/inch. If you lower the car a lot, and use sticky wide tires, then you need the stiffer springs. When you stay with older style rubber and wheels, you can get by with lower rates.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[MonzaRacer]

Ok for my Choice i would give this idea a try. If you want to set a budget in front I would go for the tall blall joints to mimic the ATS spindle for now, ,get some good controlarms too. and the sway bar is a definate go. Then add in some sweet shocks and the front is good to go.
As for the rear I would seriously think about a ART AirBar, you could start with paddle switches and a simple tank and a big compressor. For the most part my choice would be a CoolRide for the front too but thats me.
I will have 3 yrs of daily driving 35 to 45 miles oneway each day to work on Air ride and love it.
I spent almost as much on my whole set up as the Airbar but it rides and drives so good and I am breaking my budget for my CheapTrick Monza by going with the ART stuff and I am going to have to design my own rear suspension as they dont have anything for it.
HeckI made my 78 C10 rear CoolRide with parallel 4 link bolt on my self 2 1/2 yrs before ART made the current kit.
For being able to raise the car, still have the look and the performance and ride.
Trust this ,the setup is well built, well developed and works. If you install the rear setup you can save for ShockWaves for the front and have a very sweet car.
Unfortunately we build cars with more expensive parts but in the end it just works so much better.
Good Luck

[CarlC]

Hey David, about that front fender emblem.....:poke:

[cheapthrillz]

Moog #6308 front springs
Hotchkis 1 1/8" hollow swaybar or 1" solid swaybar
Hotchkis rear 1 1/2" rear drop leafs
Bilstein shocks

Should be around $950 and ride pretty good?

[6'9"Witha69]

That will work pretty well.

[Marcus SC&C]

Based on your goals I`d suggest Hotchkis springs and Bilstein shocks all the way around. Worry about sway bars until last,they`re a tuning aid. Instead correct the lousy front end geometry with a Stage 1-Plus package if you`re on a budget. It has the same effect as the G mod but more so and includes adj. tubular upper arms that let you run modern alignment specs. Between the geometry and the new alignment you`ll be amazed at how much better the car will drive and handle. If you want to go one step more upgrade to a Stage 2 with tall tie rod ends to correct about 80% of the stock bumpsteer. It makes a nice improvement in everyday drivability as well as performance. With much improved front geometry and a shorter front moment arm you`ll need less front bar rate so you may find you`re happy with the small dia. (and lightweight!) front bar you have. Mark SC&C

[David Pozzi]

Hey David, about that front fender emblem.....:poke:

Carl,
I was waiting for someone to bring that up!
I could smack the body shop jerk that did it! It was done before Mary bought it, I wish we could move it but there would be 3 holes showing.

I told Mary to get the ear plugs out when people see it. That really buggs me to see cuz I know how it should look.
David

[Napa69]

Hey guys- I have a related question to suspension set up. I just bought a 69 which has the Hotchkis 2 in lowering springs up front but on the rear the previous owner just dearched the leafs. It has QA1's with the rear being 12 way adjustable. The problem I have is the back end of the car rides horrible. I know with lowering you sacrafice ride quality but it cant be this rough. I figured that the rear shocks were not adjusted properly so I have played with them which has helped but they seem to either still bottom out or end up too stiff. I like the stance and want to keep the ride height the same. Do you guys think the rear shocks are shot (about 4 years old) or do you think I need to replace the leafs with matching Hotchkis or DSE drop springs? I called QA1 and they recommended I start the adjustment at 4 and stiffen from there. 4 bottoms out and anything over 6 is too stiff...any sugestions on dialing it in?
Thanks for your thoughts...will post pics soon.

[gort69]

My 69 convert has the Hotchkis front and rear springs, the Hotchkis 1 1/8" frontbar, and the SC&C Street Comp Stage 2-Plus system. 17" TTII's and nice Bridgestone rubber. KYB Gr2 shocks (for now). It's hard to describe how much better this car handles than it did before.

The whole package wasn't cheap, but you could certainly spend a lot more.

I considered the ATS spindles, but it kind of requires C5 brakes (which I wound up using anyway) and wheels that will clear C5 brakes. That was the sticking point for me.

[David Pozzi]

Tires can make a big difference in ride quality too.
I think the 12 way need about a 4 setting for the street, we autocross at 5.

[cheapthrillz]

Thanks for everybody's help on this one. If it weren't for money though, all of our cars would be very similar. I knew there were some pretty smart guys on here and I appreciate everything. I guess we will get into some more discussions in the future. Peace for now.