Anyone make a controller for a 6l80 yet?

[70 Chevelle]

Does anyone know if a controller is in the works for the 6l80 yet?

[Steve Chryssos]

Unfortunately, no. Don't hold your breath either. The only way to currently make a 6L80E work is to cut the body off of a brand new vette and make your body fit. And don't change anything else that might affect the factory calibration. Not the cam, not the gear, not the tire diameter. Even the most minor change could negatively affect the trans controller and cause failure.

Stay in touch with the good people at Powertrain Control Solutions. If anyone can figure it out, they will. In the meantime, we are having great success with four speeds. And if you simply must have more gears, our SEMA car will have a 4L80E with gear vendors to achieve 6/8 speeds all controlled by our paddle shifter.

[70 Chevelle]

thanks for the info

[Karch]

I thought the controller was built into the transmission itself...internal?

Is this not the case (really, I know it's an awful pun, but honestly not intended)?

How much coin is a 4L80e with the 2.75/1.57/1.00/0.75 gear ratios, assuming 600 ft-lbs or so capacity?

Thanks.

[68Formula]

I thought the controller was built into the transmission itself...internal?

Is this not the case (really, I know it's an awful pun, but honestly not intended)?

How much coin is a 4L80e with the 2.75/1.57/1.00/0.75 gear ratios, assuming 600 ft-lbs or so capacity?

Thanks.

4L80E are factory rated for 800Nm (590ft-lbs) torque.

[Steve Chryssos]

And the good news is that if you are at or close to that rating, you can dig one out of a junkyard, throw a shift kit in it, replace the converter and save a bundle over any "built" lesser transmission. I've bought cores as cheaply as $350 wholesale (if you know a guy) So it IS possible to very carefully shop for a used 4L80E without spending big bucks. Gotta add in the price for a computer, but the level of control that the computers provide makes them well worth the money.

Now if you're making big power or just don't like junkyard parts, then the cost starts at about $3K and goes up from there. There is simply no way to build a cheap transmission for a 900HP application. Then again, 900HP costs big money, so it only makes sense that the transmission, rear axle, etc. also cost money. I get calls all the time from people who won't think twice about dropping $30K on a 1200HP engine, but are upset that the matching trans costs $7-8K.

[Steve Chryssos]

As for the 6L80E, it does have an internal controller, but it is not adaptable to your hot rod. The programming is extremely complicated due to the finesse required to apply and release the clutch to clutch arrangement. As such, the stock calibration is vehicle specific. Install that transmission and its calibration into a different vehicle--different engine, different tire diameter, different gear ratio, etc--and.. Kaboom!

I have heard of a couple of shops that are attempting 6L80E installs regardless of the warnings. Short of re-skinning an otherwise bone stock C6 Corvette, I don't believe they will succeed. And if they somehow succeed, there will be little or no trickle down to the average hot rodder.

It's all very silly, since we are having great success with the four speeds. If you absolutely gotta have more than four gears, add on a gear splitter such as Gear Vendors. The technology exists to successfully complete this installation. Move the gear selector to 3 and you have a six speed. In D you have an eight speed. If the experts are right (and that's what makes them experts) the 6L80E is pie-in-the-sky and will be so for a very long time.

Sorry, no one wants 6L80E's more than we do.

[Karch]

Thanks Steve.

I was set to go with a 2004R, and I could have had one for a song that was brand new, totally done over, with all the trick parts from my buddy.

Basically, I passed on it, but it turned out that the same transmission, before it was gone through AGAIN, ruined his crank thrust bearing and surface.

I like the 4l80e, and even don't mind the computer control except that it's a must have, but I prefer the wider gears of the 2004r. I have read you can get the optional gears for the 4l80e which sounds enticing.

Now, there is someone not too far away who is selling 4l80e cores.

What do I need to look for aside from obvious abuse/neglect on the exterior and smelling the fluid?

Are there certain years that are better? What about various lengths, like the th400?

Thanks again.

[Steve Chryssos]

Try to drop the pan. Look for the obvious such as major debris and bad fluid. An 1/8" of metallic "paste" on the magnet is normal. Also look for disconnected or damaged harness connections (the harness in the pan). They could have resulted in more severe problems. Make sure the filter was snug and not clogged with gasket material or worse. Study the forward part of the case for cracks. They don't really crack at the tail. My favorite cores are the 2500 series 2wd vans. These trucks were generally used to carry payload but rarely used for towing. Don't bother humping home the stock converter. They weigh a ton and are not very hot rod friendly.

What year depends on what engine you are building.

They're all the same length and the gear ratios are actually quite useable--not as good as the 2004R--but remember that you will perfectly tune the shift points to match your power band, so you can dispense with or delay shifts as you see fit. If you're driving at 7% throttle angle and you wanna get that 1-2 shift over and done at 22 mph, just go into the software and adjust. Lots of customers do that to resolve an excessive 1-2 kick at light loads. Want to delay the 3-4 shift for a given throttle angle? Tap away on your keyboard. Not sure? Save the calibration as a new file. Around here, we have a lot of roads with annoying 40mph speed limits and mild conjestion, so my 3-4 shifts are tuned high (52mph) to keep me out of overdrive. And I'm experimenting with locking up the converter well below the 3-4 shift points. Point is, don't get to hung up on the gear ratios. The computer is really the best part of the system.

Feel free to give me a call if you'd like. I'm going crazy this week, but I promptly return each and every voicemail.

[Karch]

Thanks Steve.

I have a 65 Pontiac Gto clone with an 11:1 455 and 3.31 gears.

I'll look into how much these weigh vs. my th400. I don't know how much better off I'd be with the 4l80, as I would never recoup the money in fuel savings, but I just like the extra gear and the lower rpm's.

I am hoping that megasquirt comes out with a trans controller at some point in the near future, as that is the direction I am going with regards to the engine.

Thanks again, and I'll give you a shout if I can just get a minute during "normal" hours.

[Steve Chryssos]

Try to find about a 96 or 97 core. 95 will do as well. Much of the evolution occurred 93 and up. The MegaSquirt will happen. Trans control except the 6L80) is very simple. All of the controllers work in essentially the same way. So I see no reason why the MegaSquirt controller will not happen. The 4L80E will completely change your driving experience as opposed to the TH400 due to overdrive plus complete calibration control. It would be like driving two different vehicles. If you choose a 4L80E, you will need to get rid of the high gears or you will be driving around essentially at idle. 3.70's work perfect with a 26" tire.

[JMarsa]

Better options for the 6L80 are '07 Escaldes, GMC Sierra Denali's and Yukon Denali's.

--JMarsa

[Karch]

First, my apologies to 70 Chevelle for hijacking this thread.

Steve, I've got a line on a core , and he said that he has one that came out of an early P30 and later P30 van.

Do you know where the date codes are for these, and the interpretation?

Regarding gear ratios...my 455 comes on very hard off idle, and I can't spin it past 5800, due to my rods.

These Pontiac engines are well known for being able to take what most consider very long gears. Plus, my car is 3500# or so w/o driver, so it's not too heavy (yet).

I figure I can grab the trans, and at some point later this year, if I catch up on the projects, get around to trying to rebuild it...I have never done a trans or rearend before. Then again, maybe I won't try it, as you have to be super clean with the slush-boxes.

[Steve Chryssos]

P30?!! I think those will have straight cut gears which are stronger, nut noisy. Not noisy like a freight train--noisy like a manual trans.

As for gears, my concern is for overdrive, not first gear. First gear will probably be really cool with the 3.31's I'm concerned that overdrive will drop your revs too far. No big deal since you can delay overdrive until the engine exceeds a certain rpm, say 2500 rpm. Past stall speed for sure. And then if you change gars down the line, you can quickly recalibrate the shift point.

As for identification, google "4L80E Identification". You will find a ton of information includig dimensions, exploded view drawings. 4L80E's are coded MT1, 4L85E's are coded MN8. Trans pans have 17 bolts.

[Karch]

Thanks again.

I just spoke to the guy. He said they are from 1990-19999, and they are from GM, in the shipping crate, for rebuild.

He said that the trannys are worn out and replaced with GM units, and these are the old cores.

[Steve Chryssos]

Spoke to the guy?? You can't check them out? I'm concerned about things like the output shaft. Is it different than say a 2500 series pickup. And what does worn out mean?

[Karch]

I did speak to the guy, and I can check it out (I think).

From what I gathered, he said these were cores in GM shipping crates. So, I imagine/assume that these were torn out and GM rebuilts or new units were put in and replaced.

I can pm you his phone number if you are interested.

Thank you.

[Steve Chryssos]

Sounds fishy. Are you planning on having it rebuilt? Can you get and post a picture? I'd hate to play any role in helping you buy a blown transmission.

[ponjohn]

Speartech says they have this all worked out and have product that has shipped.

[josht]

The trans will work great as long it is behind a 58X engine. There is so much interfacing between the ECM (engine) and the TCM (trans) that there isn't any feasible way to set the 6L80 up as "stand alone" or to use the twister kit.

If you wanted to open up your engine and change the 24X reluctor wheel over to a 58X, then you could do it. It would require a new harness and computer though. __________________
John
Speartech Fuel Injection Systems, Inc.
Your LS1, LS2, LS7 retrofit specialist
Custom wiring harnesses, reworked factory harnesses, PCM programming
www.speartech.com (http://www.speartech.com/)
(765) 378-4908

I asked about using a 6L80 behind a Gen III engine...

I did not get a price on the conversion, it is not going to be cheap.
I would guess over $1,500 as you need a contoller and harness.

Josh

[JMarsa]

As long as you use a 58x wheel can you use an aftermarket ECM (FAST ect.) and the stock TCM?

So at this time no aftermarket TCM's, just a harness to retrofit the OEM pieces?

--JMarsa

[Steve Chryssos]

That might be progress. I have never been able to get a definitive answer on exactly what systems the TCU communicates with (other than the engine) For example, does the TCU communicate with traction control, ABS and other modern ancilliary systems that are not present on our hot rods.

So if there is a harness available, then Speartech might be making progress. Note that it has been made clear to me that the transmission algorithm is vehicle specific (tire, final drive, power curve, etc.) So harness or not, when you bolt that Escalade engine, trans and electronics into your very different hot rod, bad things can happen to the "clutch to clutch" transmission.

Progress or not, I, personally would not want to be the guinea pig, especially since we have made such great progress with the four speeds.

[victionone]

John says he has a LS7/6l90 combo runnning for 2 months now. Curious to see how thats going since Im interested in this tranny for my LS7 also...

[ponjohn]

I mentioned this on LS1, I really don't see the value - I can see it's use in truck where it weighs 7000lbs and a towing capacity of 12k lbs.

In a 3500 lbs car with a 4.02 ist gear- it is virtually worthless. If you go to a 3.2x gear then a stock motor may not be able to pull that OD ratio without lugging.

Might make sense with a blown or turbo motor.

( how difficult to swap reluctors?)

[Steve Chryssos]

John says he has a LS7/6l90 combo runnning for 2 months now. Curious to see how thats going since Im interested in this tranny for my LS7 also...

Cool. What is it running in? If it's a new vette, then all of the ancillary hardware and sensors are present. I want to see someone do the swap in an older hot rod. When that happens and happens reliably, I'll get on board.

[Steve Chryssos]

I mentioned this on LS1, I really don't see the value - I can see it's use in truck where it way 7000lbs and a towing capacity of 12k lbs.

In a 3500 lbs car with a 4.02 ist gear- it is virtually worthless. If you go to a 3.2x gear then a stock motor may not be able to pull that OD ratio without lugging.

Might make sense with a blown or turbo motor.

( how difficult to swap reluctors?)

The 6L80E is a whole different animal. Unlike a step gear design that must go from 1st to 2nd to 3rd to 4th, the 6L80E doesn't use first gear unless the computer deems it necessary. As I understand, it can skip a gear and jump around.

[ponjohn]

The 6L80E is a whole different animal. Unlike a step gear design that must go from 1st to 2nd to 3rd to 4th, the 6L80E doesn't use first gear unless the computer deems it necessary. As I understand, it can skip a gear and jump around.

Interesting.

[shanekennedy]

progress is being made

http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=780464

[Steve Chryssos]

That's what I've been waiting for. By that I mean: installation in something other than a new, formerly M6 vette. Now it's time to wait 3-6 months after their project is complete to make sure the thing doesn't blow up and then the floodgates can open. As I've stated, the shift programming for the new clutch to clutch trans design is complex. So I have some fear that installing a 6L in a non-stock application might confuse the trans controller resulting in clutch failure. That concern is reinforced by the fact that Speartech is selling 6L's only in conjunction with engines--not: "Here, go put this behind your 8-71 carbureted big block" It will take more time to get to that level.

Once Speartech physically confirms that this is a non-issue (I have my fingers crossed tightly), then I'm all over it.

Oh, and reading that thread, end users are getting too hung up on gear ratios and other thinking that relates to old school step gear (as opposed to the 6L's clutch to clutch design) We need to remain open minded as the 6L's have capabilities well beyond our normal TH and 4L comprehension including gear skipping and performance algorithm shifting.

I hope everyone understands that I'm not being critical of Speartech in any way. I just want to be cautious. Wait for those guys to complete actual vehicle testing.

[GetMore]

I am sure that I don't understand all the issues, but I don't see why changing the vehicle the transmission is in will throw everything off.
I can see how the engine might, since the power curves will be different, but these transmissions are in trucks. Trucks vary in weight by design. After all, the truck might drive to a quarry, weighing in at 5,500 lbs, get loaded with 3,500 lbs of material, and then drive off. Obviously, at that point Tow/Haul mode should be switched on, but there's no guarantee that it will be.
I think that there is enough potential weight variance in stock applications that it shouldn't be an issue for the aftermarket.

Overall gear ratio, taking into account tire height can make a difference.

Now, as to anyone wondering why you would need six speeds, it's not so much for overall gear spread as it is for keeping the engine right in the sweet spot of the power band.
Some people complain about the gear drop in the 700-R4. Heck, some folks install a Gear Vendors unit to split the gears with a TH-400. A six speed transmission gives you short gear drops and a wide overall spread.

[Steve Chryssos]

The concern relates to the application and release of the many clutches as opposed to the old clutch and band system. I'm not saying that there is a problem--just that I'd prefer to wait and see.

[matthimself456]

We seem to have some folks with money on here. Someone buy one and try it! I'm dying to see what happens. Man if someone bolts it up to their Camaro and it works we'll all wonder what took so long.

[70 Chevelle]

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=789313

[Thumpin'66]

How about retrofitting the 6l80 to an old school carbureted 454 without electronics? Is anything going to be available? Maybe even a manual valvebody or something? I want to put one in my 66 Chevelle wagon!