Jiffy Lube scam (5 out of 9 customers scammed) must see video!

[ProVette]

this is not good.................


http://mfile.akamai.com/12924/.../0503/9152183.200k.asx (http://mfile.akamai.com/12924/wmv/vod.ibsys.com/2006/0503/9152183.200k.asx)

[Flash68]

Wow.... but doesn't surprise me one bit unfortunately.

[Smock67]

damn thats not good at all

[vanzuuk1]

What sucks about this is that honest shops get the fallout for this.People who dont know anything about cars always think they are getting scammed.

[parsonsj]

My wife has her little Mazda over to the local JL every 3000 miles. But that's all they do: change the oil.

jp

[ProVette]

Think Jiffy Lube is scamming only on "extras" and not the $29 oil changes?

Watch part 2 of the investigation and note that the oil filters are not replaced during oil changes.

http://www.knbc.com/video/9155837/detail.html

[TonyL]

I saw this a long time ago. The most damning thing in the vids is "They trained us how *NOT* to get caught. How to look for your cars." Instead of training them how to do their jobs correctly. Wow. just Wow.

[parsonsj]

I'll be marking oil filters from now on.

Thanks for sharing this.

jp

[LMDGUY]

and people think we at the dealerships are crooks.

[Damn True]

we still do.

[Larry Callahan]

Funny thing I took Susan's car for an oil change yesterday. She asked where I was going to take it. I told her the local mom & pop place. I told her I would rather support the local company then Jiffy Lube that is a couple of blocks away that is a few bucks cheaper. She then told me about the story she saw on TV about people getting ripped off.

Well, I go to the local shop, the company Jeep is outside painted with the logo, the name is on the sign outside e.t.c.

So, I go in and have the oil changed. I don't recognize anyone as always but no big deal. Anyway, after they are done they hand me the paperwork to sign and it says Jiffy Lube. What the hell. I asked why it said Jiffy Lube and they told me it changed hands a few weeks ago. I told them had I known it was a Jiffy Lube now I never would have stopped. What a joke. They really need to hang some signs e.t.c.

I did see they changed the filter while I was outside having a smoke but they did manage to scratch the paint to the metal on a fender where some bozo leaned over it.

[Magntik]

I either do it myself or go to the Chevy dealership for the wife's 2000 Tahoe.
Not so long ago her change oil light popped on and she decided to stop at a "Speed Lube" one of Jiffys competitors here, anyway they asked her what oil she wanted and she said she didn't know she usually has the dealership do it, and offered to call me.
But the told her that they would just recommend their "high milage" oil change service.
She asked if she really needed that and the said yes so she went ahead with it.
Later she proudly told me she got the oil changed, and when I asked if she talked to a friend of ours in the service department at the dealership she said she went to this "Speedy Lube" b/c she was closer.
Then told me she paid $49 and change to have the oil changed!!!!

I was hot, the dealership is $24.99.
So I called to ask what the h*ll they did for $50, and the gal that said she was the manager claim to know us and was doing us a favor!
That she recommended the high milage service with oil treatment added to the oil. and it took 6 instead of the 5 quarts so that was extra. And then said it wasn't $50, sir.

I don't remember the exact amount but it was closer to 50 than 49!! and our Tahoe at the time only had around 90,000.
Not exactly high milage to me or the service guys at the dealership.

I ended up talking or yelling at the district manager and telling him he was taking advantage of female customers that might know everything about their cars.
He blamed me for it all saying I shouldn't let my wife do "these kind" of things then.

I asked him why they didn't call the dealership or let my wife do it, it's not our policy he said.
The I asked him if he knew the oil that they put in and he read it from a faxed copy of the invoice he had gotten from the manager, and after he said they added 10W30 to I asked why they didn't even put the right oil in?
He asked me what I was talking about and I told him, the owner's manual calls for 5W30, the service guy at the dealership says 5W30 and no "high milage" anything, and the dealership's window cling was still on the windshield that said exactly what was in the engine!!!!
He claimed that it is only a reccomendation, we know what's best for your car!!!
I started laughing, and he hung up on me!!!

The next day he called back said he talked to his boss and they wouldn't refund my money like I asked but they would send me a gift certificate for $50 to use at their store for my next oil change.

I laughed again told him where to stick it and promised to tell everybody I knew about his buisness practices, that they may loose more than $50 worth of buisness.

Now it's only the dealership, I'm starting to trust those guys.

[harshman]

I didn't get the high end treatment at JL but I did notice that the price for a simple oil change was stupid. About $40 worth of stupid. I'm now taking my vehicles to the dealer and paying about $25-$30 including a free car wash – but most of all I know my Tahoe is getting worked on correctly.

[CamaroAJ]

it also says on the oil cap to use 5w-30

[Samckitt]

99.9999% of the time I do it myself. I have taken the wife's car to one of those one time because I didn't want to do it. I would have had to do it myself & it was something like 7 degrees outside plus the wind chill.

[Damn True]

I love that the District Manager corrected the reporters pronunciation of the name "Ayoob" when that supposedly wasn't his name.

Two bad experiences with JL.

My folks took my Camaro to a JL in Auburn, CA just before I got out of the Coast Guard. They thought they were doing me a favor. The JL "SAE Tech" (pfft, whatever) spun the oil pan plug. Didn't tell my step-dad and the car wound up run out of oil and destroyed the engine.

In a pinch I took my Subaru Outback to a JL in Hayward, CA for an oil & filter change and trans fluid & filter change. They overfilled the trans and never touched the trans filter.

[MarkM66]

we still do.

LOL!

I so f'ed up in the head, I change my own oil. :eek:

[Damn True]

LOL!

I so f'ed up in the head, I change my own oil. :eek:

I do too.

My wife tried to take her 4-runner to the dealer for service. They wanted $300 to do what cost me $27 and 45min in the driveway.

[got_hp?]

close friend of mine took her car to a JL a few years back, the guys were all giving her a hard time because shes a hot blonde and doesnt know anything about cars, telling her she needed all this extra work done. she insisted on just the oil change.

she drives away and a few minutes later, BOOM, engine blows up........they drained her old oil and never put any new oil back in.

manager agreed to pay her what the car was worth, although im sure she could have gotten more she didnt want to hassle with it.

[tumper93]

At the dealership I work at we have always used 10w-30, not the recommended 5w-30, the difference is basically none so...A few years ago I got a blazer in with a trans problem after having it serviced at JL, after checking it and pulling the pan down I found a shop rag sucked up to the filter allowing no fluid to be pulled in. I wouldn't take my lawn mower to these guys EVER!!! Dealerships charge the same, sometimes less than these local oil change houses and you get the vehicle checked over and factory parts used. WHY GO ANYWHERE ELSE!!!! It kills me why people take their cars to everybody and their brother to have it worked on when we charge the same for labor as the local Precision Jokers. The parts are a little more, better quality, have a life time warranty on the majority of them and it installed correctly and the repair is quaranteed. Pay a little more today and have less headaches later. If you take it to the dealership ask for the head tech to work on it if you are scared.

[JJSmitches]

Everyone is a crook...that is why nobody works on my car, including me, I am too scared I will rip myself off.

[6'9"Witha69]

I hate those chain places. EZ Lube tried to tell me that the diff in my Silverado had metal shavings in it and needed the fluid replaced. Really I said, funny, it only has 15k miles, doesn't make a sound, and nobody ever looked at the rear end! Uh, well, you need a new air filter too. Again, really, you mean the K&N I put in there 2 weeks ago is already dirty.

I went there to save some time before a long drive up North. I should have done it myself and saved the time it took to argue with the idiots why I didn't need 101 add on services. I feel sorry for people who don't know about cars and get taken like that.

[Whistler]

I worked at a chain oil lube place for about three weeks when I was 17. I have a few funny stories... the best is how the menager showed me how to present the diff. lube sample to him.

We had a stack of white paper down in the pit, this was the sample card. We were to squirt a little fresh gear oil on one side of the paper, then on the other we were to stick our finger into the fill hole in the diff, then drag our finger down the side of the filthy differential... and wipe that on the paper to show the customer what the oil in their diff looked like :):):)

They almost always bought it.

[wills55]

I am the only one that works on the cars at my house. ME and only ME.

[BRIAN]

Wife brought her Benz to one and they said they had to charge her an "Exotic Charge" and that they put 10qts of oil in the car. The car takes 7. I drove down there and explained if they put in 10 they are going to owe me a lot more than just the difference for the oil.

They explained it was their policy and that is what the car took. Sometimes the argument just isn't worth it. I had to change the oil and filter again as I had no idea what they did. Best part is they only put in 5 qts.

[streetk14]

People take their cars to these quick lube chains because it's fast and convienent. You are paying more than you would at a dealer, but I guess you are paying for the speed and convienence factor. And obviously, lots of people are willing to pay for it these days.

On the other hand, customers of these lube shops have no idea that the people working there are a un-qualified as could be. I worked at a Jiffy Lube when I was 17 (for about 6 months) and I knew more about cars than the manager. They do not hire people based on automotive skill, they want people who have people skills. They think they can teach anybody to do the job. They also put a lot of pressure on the employees to sell customers air filters and other services that really aren't needed.

As much as some people hate dealships, you have much better odds of getting quality work. They know your car beacause that is all they work on. It kills me when I see people taking their newer BMWs to jiffy lube (and the results of doing so). Very scary...

Andy

[VF101_jay]

I have noticed that it doesn't seem to matter where you take your car, if you don't oversee the work, they are likely to take a short cut or do something wrong. I will only take my car to a place that will let me stand there and watch the guy work...it helps to know what you are looking at...but I think just knowing you are looking over their shoulder improves the work attitude. One scary thing that I did see in a GM dealership was a mechanic let the calipers hang from the brake lines while he went to the computer to check on part numbers or something...all four hanging there by the rubber lines for at least 20 minutes on a newer Cadillac...I wanted to smack the guy, but I was there picking up a company vehicle and had to go before he got back. It is always useless to complain to the people at the front...they just look at you like you are out of your mind for wasting their time with things they couldn't care less about. Finding a place you can trust is worth almost any price!

[bobbaganoosh]

The ONLY time I've taken any vehicle to one of those places I know they changed the oil. They put a cheapie filter on it and stripped the drain plug. Then they wrapped teflon tape around it so I wouldn't know about until I changed my oil again. Had the place not been four hours away I would have went there and come unglued.

[jeffandre]

My wife uses the local JL with no real problems yet. We get it done for free (it's a mystery/secret) and my wife, who knows very little about anything mechanical, can see through anybody's crap long enough to get me on the phone first.

I coworker went there once and they somehow figured out a way to change a bunch of stuff on his vehicle, including the inlet air filter (filters outside air before it comes into cabin). I recall that the JL wanted somewhere around $70 for that, and he found the filter itself at a local place for $19! Needless to say they refunded his money on that one!!!

Like everything else it is buyer beware out there!

[THX 138]

I went there once. got charged $45. Never went there again. Then I was going to a local gas station for a while. They could do it for less than i could buy everything retail for so why not.

[aonghus]

This stuff kind've scares me. Everyone in my family has a Lexus, my parents take take their Lexus' to the dealer, and pay $189 to have their oil changed. Granted, the dealers always try to justify it by saying that they're performing tests and checking various systems of the car, but still. People who let this kind of garbage happen to them deserve it. The general public is stupid, I'm not attacking anyone here, but just speaking generally. It should be the responsibility of every person who drives a car to understand what simple steps should be taken to take care of a vehicle...

I changed my own oil for $36 in the driveway, low and behold my IS300 still runs, amazing..... If only I could convince my parents to pay me even $100 to change their oil. I'll even give them croissants and coffee while they wait. I guess they like the snooty dealer 'lounge.'

[trapin]

we still do.
Not to pile on but I have a story. When I was a co-op student at GM back in 1991 they put all us students at dealerships for one week during GM's (at the time) mandatory 2 Week Shutdown because the students only got 5 days of vacation. Me and this girl were put over at Jim Cook Buick in Farmington Hills and our job was to test drive cars to verify that repairs were made to them in accordance with the write ups. During down time I would hang out in the garage and chat it up with the mechanics. I watched one of them change the brakes on a Buick Regal for some little old lady in about 30 minutes. These guys were fast, I mean lightening fast. They could have done 90% of the jobs that came through that shop blindfolded...I swear. However, according to her write up, the job was billed for 3 hours. I asked the guy if the bill would be adjusted since he knocked out the job in such short time. He said, "Nope". During that week I watched a lot of repairs (by, I must admit, some of the finest mechanics I've ever witnessed in my life) get done in record time only to observe overbilling on all the sheets. I'll never forget it. True story.

.....this is why I don't take my cars to dealerships unless they're under warrenty.

[Fluid Power]

Tony,

I am suprised that you posted this 'over billing method' by the dealer. Especially since you 'worked' there. I have a good friend of mine who is a master tech at a Lincoln dealership. He works 40 hours a week and is able to turn about 80-90 hours of booked work. It is the only way to make money in those shops.

Ask a body guy that does insurance work and he will tell you the same thing. If the insurance guy writes an estimate to remove and replace a door for 4 hours, and a good tech can do it in 2, is it not fair for the tech to make the difference up because of his experience?

In any dealershop or bodyshop that does "booked work" this is common practice.

Darren

[trapin]

Darren, I'm not sure I follow you. Are these guys working on commision or getting paid by the hour from the dealership? And I never "worked" for the dealership, I just know what I observed and was told and it didn't seem right to me.

[mikey]

I work at a dealership and am paid flat rate. I get paid my hourly wage no matter how long it takes me to do the job. while I can put a rear bumper on a crown vic in less than 10 min and it pays a couple hours I also have several jobs that I literally spend double the time allowed on them. Example the book says a Crown Vic trunk floor pays 13 hours the fastest I have done one is in about 25 hours and the customer only pays the book price. We don't set the labor times they are in chilton,motor,adp and audatex manuals. You pay me for what I know why should I cut you a break for what 25 years of experience has taught me?

[MonzaRacer]

Tony what you see on the ticket is called FLAT RATE LABOR.
I am a Certified MAster Tech and have been in the field for over 20 yrs.
As for reducing the charge ,why would you reduce the charge?
Open a FLAT RATE manual and read what actually goes on in that specified job.
Some jobs kick my but, like diag work and electrical. I am too picky and just hate to give a bad recommendation to a customer.
But the flat rate labor for a tech isnt all gravy like there is a Evap Core job at work that was supposed to be mine, the other tech isnt having the luck I would because I am experienced in it. I think it "books" for the rate of 6 1/2 hours but he will probably have 12 or 15 in it total so he looses.
The flat rate amnual give us a factory suggested amount of time that get charged everyone, now if one of those guys happens to stripp out the caliper bracket/spindles cause the last guy used his 3/4 in super duper impact to tighten them and pulled the threads, since he is last person to touch it he gets to helicoil it for free. BUT he doesnt get paid for that job taking 5 hours because the bolt was broke off in it and he had to drill it out very carefully.
As for the difference in the 2000 Tahoe oil requirements or 5w30 or 10w30, that 5 w30 oil cap was installed so the OEs can get the next .10 of a mpg out of it for CAFE.
See Corporate Average Fuel Economy is figured by averageing all of the vehicles one maker puts out. Does anyone remember the next model year Ford truck coming out in march or april,,,,CAFE.
See if the EPA pulls a specific model off the line to test it for CAFE standards and it does 14.4 city19 .4 hwy the sticker says 14/19 BUT if it does 14.5 city and 19.5 hwy it gets a 15/20 on the window.
They are changing the testing standards so the window stickers are more reflective BUT if the oe can use a 5w30 in place or 10w30 and get that .1 mpg, they doo and lot of current OEM engines are coming out much tighter clearances so as to keep the oil pressures in proper range.
Ever wonder why a big ol 500 Caddy ran 100k miles and still ran like new,,it wasnt set up loose, it wasset up precisely at the factory.
Ford used to use 0.0005 increment bearings to set clearances in the older days.
Now adays with CNC fixtures and precision measuring they can get perfect fit every time .
That Tahoe can run 15W40 but it will most likely get less mileage.
And it doesnt require the heavy oil anymore.
But to get back to the FLAT RATE price of a job, you have to figure that a tech only gets say 20 to 30 percent IF they pay good at his shop and in some shops like where I work we have no guaranteed take home. Now you figure out we get hit for say our 20 % of insurance, out part of uniforms, 401k, family insurance etc. The money to turn a wrench isnt great.
you also figure anywhere from 1 to as many as 6 tool truck showing up and if the shop doesnt buy certain tools the tech has too.
I have one tool my new scanner that ,when paid off, will have cost me $5200 and that doesnt count in yearly updates for several hundred dollarsand that $35.00 a week even if I have a bad week at work.
One new tool out that I really think would speed up some electrical diag ,its called aPower Probe 3 and Ithink its like almost $200 and all it is is a real advanced test light but with the newer computerized cars, you gotta work on them like an electronics tech not a grease monky neanderthal.
I have roughly $30k-$40k in tools and still have hundreds I need but cant afford right now and heck I cant even figure out how to get out of a hole I am in right now.
The flat rate manual makes each job priced the same for everyone. But if I can do 3 jobs that make me 2 hrs flat rate each but do them in 1.5 hrs each then I make more money as I only take 4.5 hrs Ican maybe do another or something else. The hope is that a tech can make it to be good enough to turn atleast 40 FRH for a 40 hr week. BUT if a shop is paying 80% of his personal insurance and the shops part of uniforms and such then that tech needs to turn atleast in the 25 to 30 hr range of time to have the shop actually break even.
But if your observation ,Tony, that I should rush to get your vehicles done and out in 1.5 and only charge you 1.5 but if your (hypothetical) brother Bob comes in for same job and I take 3 hrs on his because I have dificulties on that job should I charge him 3 hrs instead of 1.5hrs(like yours) or 2hrs like the book says.
So does this make sense?
Now the whole job for brakes, costing that much may have allowed for R&R brake pads, remove the rotors and resurface, clean and repack bearings and install new seals and grease and reinstall and adjust bearing preload, install pads/caliper and possibly even bleed brakes too.
Now that jobs gets a little more understandable for costing 3.2 hrs. BUT if the tech can shave that down to 2.5 he can use thattime on the B@$t@rd heater core/evap core on your grannies car , still charge the 6.5 FRH on it and not charge her 15 or 20 hrs on it,EVEN though the book says it should only take 6.5 FRH.
See how while it seems like a rip off its not, its simply the way of repairing cars and you think I should get my paycheck cut just because I am fast and good and not slow and good?
Think Tony, IF you agree to mow my yard for $20 bucks but because it takes me 4 hrs on foot but you saved for a rider and can do it in 45 minutes should I only pay you $3.74 because you can do it faster?
OK figure 4 hrs x 60 min=240
$20.00/240=$0.083 cents
So if you do it in 45 minutes because you have a faster way or what ever its would only be worth 45 min x $0.083=$3.74
I hope you understand.
Lee

[LowBuckX]

My wife took her 01 Impala to WalMart for a tire rotation and oil change. They wouldnt change the oil unless they could put a new pan on it because the pan had rust on it... Then they tryed to sell her tires because they claimed the rear tires where worn out.

total quote was $1000

The tires are 1 year old and still look brand new and the oil pan has a tiny spot of rust... I changed the oil and rotated the tires. Never again.

[Chad-1stGen]

The flat rate thing is pretty normal at a lot of shops. Customer pays the rate specificed by a 3rd party manual/computer program regardless of how long it takes. Can work both ways obviously.

A friend who is a Toyota mechanic is paid an hourly wage based on his flate rate hours. So if he does a 4 hours job in 2 he gets paid the 4 hours, if he takes 6 hours to do it he still gets paid only 4.

It's a good and bad policy depending on the mechanics morals/character IMO

[Rantheman]

Thats why I do all my own work

[trapin]

Monza...thanks for the explanation. It makes sense now.

[Steve Chryssos]

I love it when crooks get busted on camera. They always seem so small when confronted. Uhh..umm.....duh....

[Damn True]

Monza...thanks for the explanation. It makes sense now.

Yeah, I get it too. It's neat how these guys have such a "logical" explaination for theft.


But if I can do 3 jobs that make me 2 hrs flat rate each but do them in 1.5 hrs each then I make more money as I only take 4.5 hrs Ican maybe do another or something else.

Um....that is stealing.


You pay me for what I know why should I cut you a break for what 25 years of experience has taught me?

First of all let me say that this is not intended as disrespect to those who are mechanics. I made my living as a helo mechanic in the Coast Guard for eleven years. But what you just said is complete craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap.

Uh....let me see here. My attorney charges me by the hour, but only for the hours he works. My architecht charges me by the hour, but only for the hours he works. My engineer charges me by the hour, but only for the hours he works.

Their experience and education has taught them plenty. Including BS & Masters degrees and it has allowed them to pass the CA BAR exam, Architecture Certification exam and Engineering and Building codes exam.

So please. Justify for me how an SAE mechanic should be able to bill 3 hours of labor when he only worked for 1.

Really, I want to hear this.

[6'9"Witha69]

Try being a BMW tech right now. The work has become complex and time consuming but the book hours have not changed. The book says 1 hr, it takes 3. The tech gets paid 1. He loses 2 hrs of pay. Not good for some. It all evens out and is meant to protect you, the customer. If a shop hires a jr. guy, who takes 3x longer to do a repair than the others, should you be charged 3x more in labor because of someone's learning curve? No. Likewise, if these guys are super fast, then they can make more money. You can't have it both ways. That is greedy. Yeah, I'll take the book rate when the guy works longer, but discount it if the guy takes less time. That is not fair to those who spend time improving their skills.

Now, not to say that this doesn't cause an issue with slower guys not wanting to lose time and doing shotty work just to crank out the jobs, but it also prevents them from being lazy and holding onto your car forever.

It is eseentially a trade off. A trade off I for one understand. It also guaranties better appraisal/estimate by the service writer because the work schedule is predfined and priced.

just my 0.02, and I am not a mechanic, just have a few friends who are master techs in dealerships, small shops and construction equipment fleet techs.

[Damn True]

An experienced and skilled attorney, architecht, engineer or plastic surgeon for that matter charges more than a guy that just passed the certification exam right?

[6'9"Witha69]

Yes, but dealership mechanics usually make the same, the ability to work faster or slower is the differrence in how they get paid based on experience/abilities. Am I saying that it is perfect or always fair? No. Do I think it is stealing/cheating the customer, usually not. And as stated previously, it does help ensure uniform pricing and deters slow work being performed to up the hours.

[baz67]

Usually I agree with you True, but not on this one. The book time is so the customer knows what they are paying for and does not get stupid excuses on why it took 5hrs to change the oil. It is flat rate pricing plain and simple with no surprises in the end. There is enough thievery in automotive repair, but this is not one of them.

You used an attorney as an example. That's great. Find one that will work hourly on a PI case. Good luck. Is the attorney stealing from you when they take 1/3 of the judgment and work relatively little time on the case?

[bretcopsey]

True, I see your point as well, but disagree. Example, the dealership is setting the rates for the services, not the individual mechanics. An oil change can't cost $29.95 for one customer and $47.95 for another because "the new guy" did it.

Now, if all customers were consistently billed for 4 hours for oil changes and they really only take 1/2 hour, then yes, your getting ripped. You agree to pay $29.95 for an oil change at the dealershio, and it is "only a 30 minute wait or it's free" If the guy doing the change can change the oil two cars in that half hour, he gets paid for two.

I'm rambling here, so I'll shut up.

[vintageracer]

Unfortunately we live in a country (USA) where you do not have do much of anything to draw a check. Just go down to the local "bricks" between 8-5 on any given weekday/workday and you will see how true that is! It's like Saturday night during the day with LOTS of folks sitting around and walking the street. Go to virtually ANY non-subsidized housing development/community and it's deserted. Why? Because everyone's at WORK!

Why do they steal at Jiffy Lube? Because the pay in the bricks (welfare) must not be good enough so the opportunity at Jiffy Lube presents a better avenue to steal more and besides, the Jiffy Lube mechanic deserves more of what you have. You can afford it! Just ask the Jiffy Lube Mechanic. I don't know why people justify stealing but the above reasons sounds like a good reason to me!

Ask ANYONE you know, including yourself the following question. Are you overpaid for the work you do??? In all the YEARS that I have asked that specific question, I have only met 1 person in my life who said yes!

I personally believe that you are OVERPAID for the work you do IF you cannot quit your current job and go out and get another job at the SAME or GREATER salary/wage/benefits/income within the next 6 months. I personally believe that 75% - 80% of the working population in the USA CANNOT quit their job and replace their current income at the same or greater wage in 6 months. If this describes you, in my opinion you are OVERPAID for the work you do!

Two great examples are the following. Several years ago Kobe Bryant's contract was up. He was making somewhere are $15M/year. He negotiated a new contract that paid him over $20M/year. Is he overpaid? NO! You may have a "moral" problem with a guy making
$20m/Yr for playing basketball but in our society he WAS NOT overpaid as he was able to get paid more for his talent/service. Besides, who died and made you GOD to decide how much is too much pay to play basketball?

On the other side are the UAW guys at Saturn in Middle Tennessee. Line work is hard, honest work but they could not quit that job at Saturn and go find another job in Middle Tennessee that paid what they are making. They would be lucky to get 1/2 of what they are making. Overpaid? Absolutely! There are LOT's of people that will take those jobs for a lot less money and do good work. That's certainly the case over at Nissan in Middle Tennessee. I know I'll hear all the comments how that's the automotive industry wage. Maybe in Michigan but it does not have to be in Tennessee! Yes, I know that the UAW has a contract and they should get EVERYTHING they negotiated however those inflated pay scales/benefits are why the US auto industry is in the ****ter! No, Rick Wagner, GM CEO, is also in the same boat as he probably cannot go out and replace his salary at a higher rate given the ****ty performance he has turned in as the CEO at GM. He is just a LOT smarter than the union guys. If he quits or is fired he is STILL set for life with a golden parachute he "NEGOTIATED" and the GM board (his bosses) accepted.

What's all this have to do with Jiffy Lube and our ensuing discussion? NOT MUCH other than responding to the posts above concerning pay.

Stand back and take a LONG LOOK at yourself, your job, your business or however you derive an income. Think about it and be honest. Most of you may bitch about the fact that you THINK you are UNDERPAID when in reality YOU ARE OVERPAID since you cannot replace your current job income/pay/benifits at the same or greater wage.

Welcome to reality! Each of us WILL face this issue in our working career. Some will just face this issue earlier in their working career than others. It is my hope that each of you has financially planned for your future when this DOES occur.

[shmoov69]

Good statement Mike! So true.

[MonzaRacer]

Hey vintage racer,,what the crap was you trying to make a point of?
It kind of got lost when you brought in Kobe.
Now if anyone thinks I am over paid come try my job.
I am a diagnostic/driveability tech but do otherthings too. I just have taken a new direction in my career as I used to do alignments/frontend work.
But I can do machine work on your engine, rebuild an automatic trans ,rebuild differentials.
Pretty much anything on a car I can do,,and have the tools or can make, modify or make do the tool to do such things.
Again ,flat rate hours suck, period.
while I make $23.00 a flat rate hour I only make $23.00 an hour for a 40 hour week if I can turn 40 hrs flat rate time.
Now if my service manager (just did this) makes me drive a vehicle looking for a mythical "hesitation" he felt.
This truck is an AT&T truck 1989 F350, its just got its umpteenth engine ,this one under warranty. I diagnoseded it for locked up oil pump, it was replaced by Ford (Ford reman) and installed by one of the other techs(former heavy equipment mechanic now trying to make it in a shop setting, and he know very little if anything about electrical, electronics, vacuum diagrams etc) and he never set the timing right, missed the fact that if the wiring on the left fenderwell was moved it would die and never restart till you moved it again (the main EEC relay that feeds the computer on Fords had a bad connector). The ignition coil was junk.
so I get it back and find timing off by 30 degrees, the coil is bad, and a few other minor little things that I had to put back in place.
Now I grew up around my uncles shop and stabbing in these engines is liek a cake walk for me, but I didnt get it.
I think the flat rate on it is 7 or 8 hours. I could probably had it in ,fixed the issues and had it back to AT&T in 3days tops (my boss likes to have several "good" miles on any job before returning it.
This guy had it for a weeks, plus other jobs, and then it went back, they sent it back cause it didnt start right(thought it had starter/battery problem).
so I got it then found all the other things.
Now I will get a diag charge out of it,,maybe 1hr, and this was resetting the timing too. maybe 0.3 to replace the coil.
BUT I have probably 4 hours chasing mythical problems so i make just over $7.48 on that.
You call that a rip off?
Folks you can take a flying leap.
IF I could get the regualr work as well as all the diags(ie brakes, alignments,water pumps, basic tuneups, etc) in my basket I could maybe bring home a $500 a week check, but i have to put up with crap service manager, who could care less if I make money as he get his $8.00 an hour even if nothing goes out.
I DONT! And i dont even have a guaranteed minimum (my previous job if I clocke 40 time clock hours I would get 30 if the weeks was slow.
Barely made enough to live but it was something.
And at $14.00 a flat rate hour at Firestone averaged out on a bad week(ie didnt clock over 30 FRH) I brought home about $290.
Damn True if you had to do a flat rate job like me you would starve if you take the reasoning that a paycheck on my rate and take away for getting it done faster.
OH by the way if I can do an intake job on a late model 3.4l V6 in 3 hrs and the flat rate is 5.6,,,would you like your car back or do I just take my time and give it back to you tomorrow.
Beating book time is a win/lose situation because for the brake job that pays 1.8hrs with turning the rotors on car (brake job 1 hr, turn one rotor .5hr second rotor .3hr.) Now if the car/truck has 4 whl disc brakes, the recommened practice is to turn on car so as to true the rotors (unless you have to repack wheel bearings) to the hubs.
Now if I am good enough to get it done in 2 hrs you think I should not get that other time?
Then why would I EVER get fast.
In your world I should only turn 40 flat rate hours a week, well take time off for the stripped bolts, and such that crop up and we cant charge for, waiting on parts that arent in town.
I never got into working on cars for the massive riches I can make. I did it because I am good at it and hopefully I will beable to make a living at it and have a little left over to have some fun.
I have tool box that takes a flat bed trailer and a fork lift to move, a tool cart that cost more than my truck when I bought it and its packed with tools I am trying to keep from loosing my scanner (ie from being repoed) and kee pthe other 2 tool guys happy till I can get my ESOP money from a previous job in July (the last of it from the last 5 yr disbursment) so I can get my A$$ out of hock to everyone I owe.
Yeah the little $11k ESOP retirement from a previous job I am using to try and keep afloat rather than reinvest it.
My profession so far doesnt provide a solid retirement, as i have had to change jobs just about the time I start getting ready to invest/save.
Heck I dont even have insurance yet.
My boss pays 80% after I have been there 90 days and that was Memorial day,,,I havent turned in the insurance paper s yet as my FRproduction isnt where I feel comfortable with him paying for it yet.
He suppposedly also has AFLAC but I cant afford it.

Tell me I am over paid and under worked.
Now does an uneducated(ie more than high school) person have chance to make elsewhere what they can in a car factory or other factory or make the benifits like they got,,,probably not.
Are they over paid, someare but as for assembly line work being honest,,, not in my book. I got a chance to see what a friend of mine gets paid to do at the local Toyota plant,,,, he puts in 3 rods and 4 clips and brings home $60k a year and his job is more honest than mine or he works harder, that i doubt.
Try and beat flat ratetime changing an alternator on a min 90s Limina Z34. If you can do it on first try and its never been off before. you better start turning wrenches.
I may not be rich nor will I ever be but Iam honest and if you take what I made last year $27,800 I made about $9.00 an hour average and took my insurance and such out of that too.
This year I may braek $30k if I am lucky.
Anyone want to pony up and try to live on $350 max a week with no benifits so far. And do my job.
I dont have cable/satelite, or a cell phone, my one splurge is my internet and I drive a rusty old 78 C10 right now.
I hope someone lets you try and make a living on Flat Rate Hours with no guaranteed take home.
And then saddle you with a bad service manager.
OK I have vented.
but Ireally want someone to show me how the flat rate manual is unfair.
If you have 4 identical cars and the job to fix it calls for 1 hr each, but 3 of them take 1.5 hrs each we need to charge more, but luckily your protected by the Flat Rate Manual.
Think about it.
If I guess that it will take 8 hours to do a job on your Thunderbolt Grease Slapper Special and the factory says it take 15.5 hrs I just screwed my self and will starve, especially if it takes 15.5 hrs to do.
Hmm must go count my mythical millions I stole from people by being crooked.
Lee

[Damn True]

Usually I agree with you True, but not on this one. The book time is so the customer knows what they are paying for and does not get stupid excuses on why it took 5hrs to change the oil. It is flat rate pricing plain and simple with no surprises in the end. There is enough thievery in automotive repair, but this is not one of them.

You used an attorney as an example. That's great. Find one that will work hourly on a PI case. Good luck. Is the attorney stealing from you when they take 1/3 of the judgment and work relatively little time on the case?


So what you're saying is that before "the book" there was milking going on and it was a shady industry.

...and now that "the book" exists, the work around is to do a 4hr job in 2hrs. So it's still a shady industry, but they now have justification to lean on. Cool. Got it.


As for the attorney...no experience with personal injury. But I regularly work with three different attorneys (tax, contract, estate). All of them charge by the hour.

[Damn True]

Damn True if you had to do a flat rate job like me you would starve if you take the reasoning that a paycheck on my rate and take away for getting it done faster. In your world I should only turn 40 flat rate hours a week, well take time off for the stripped bolts, and such that crop up and we cant charge for, waiting on parts that arent in town.



Lee

So Lee, do you mean to tell me that a business cannot survive by charging time + materials + (a reasonable) OH&P?

Damn dude, there are a whole lot of building contractors who are going to be shocked to hear that.

As for your comments about your boss, insurance and your pay schedule; Honestly Lee, it sounds like you are working for someone who has minimal business management/development skills. I suggest you seek a position with a more professional organization.

[baz67]

True, here is another example. In the industry I used to be in, furniture moving, they have what is called TPG. It stands for Total Price Guarantee. What it is the salesman estimates what your household goods weight (pricing is based on weight) and gives you a price. You pay that price if the estimate is double or half the actual weight. Is it stealing if salesman heavy on the estimate?

[Damn True]

Uh...yeah. How often were your estimators under on their estimated weight for two story homes or walk-up apartments? In fact, how often were they under at all? How long would an estimator keep his job if he was routinely under the actual weight?

....or how about you run the truck over a scale before and after loading and charge for exactly what the load weighs. That way everyone pays or get's paid for the work that is actually done.

[baz67]

Uh...yeah. How often were your estimators under on their estimated weight for two story homes or walk-up apartments? In fact, how often were they under at all? How long would an estimator keep his job if he was routinely under the actual weight?

....or how about you run the truck over a scale before and after loading and charge for exactly what the load weighs. That way everyone pays or get's paid for the work that is actually done.

They are under much more often then not. Keep in mind people price shop. This company says they will move my crap with a set price for $xxx and says it weighs #10000, but this other one will do it by weight and says it weighs #14000 and it is not a set price and the estimated cost is more. What would you do. And without spending way too much time going through the in's and out's of the pricing of moves salesmen always hedge thier bet on an under estimate just to get the business when we are talking about TPGs. That is because people will price shop.

I was able to "adjust" the weight of a shipment without anyone able to prove that I did it. The only way the truely (no pun there) verify the weight is to witness it. In 12 years of moving I had that happen once.

[MonzaRacer]

OK, so I am a crook and so is everyother tech out there trying to just make a living.
A doctor makes $100K a year and charges EVERYBODY $65 to look you over if your sick. If he does it for 5 minutes or 1 hr you still pay the same. ask a doctor how much an hour he charges but if he leaves your exam room 5 minute early you tell him you want a discount.
Oh and as for a Doctor being a different job , he only has 2 models to work on i get about 250 or more and they can change every year.
But if I use a standard priceing manual and charge properly for EVERYONE.
So if I take 4 hrs to do a 2 hr flat rate job at first but get to the point I can get it done in 1 hr 45 minutes then I should give rebates or does my experience mean nothing or the money I lost over the years.
Your looking at it as the fact that I am stealing from people but if I went by guessing a price I probably would never even have what I do now.
OK I am gonna put together an estimate for a common car below and see iff you feel its a rip off:

1967 Camaro 396 BBC 4 speed, headers, aftermarket shifter, sub frame connectors, etc. Oh its balck too.

Customer complaint is it revs up real bad at stop lights and on hills.

Diagnosis: Clutch is worn out and needs replaced.

Clutch assembly, Renew (fac. time 2.5) Chilton manual 2.9 hrs
Flat rate hourly rate $75 dollars per flat rate hour.
Clutch assembly new, (life time warr) $199.99 (Shop labor warranty is 12 mo/12k miles.)
Outside labor to resurface flywheel $35.00
Now the current bill will be $452.49 with lifetime warranty to current owner for life of ownership. Labor is warrantied for 12mo/12k mile which ever comes first.
Now if I had worked on this car before and knew that it was easy to get past the accesories I might get lucky and it will be done in the alotted time and nothing goes wrong.
Now when the when the engine was installed the car had a new flywheel installed but the old clutch was deemed good enough by customer when different shop(now closed) installed the engine the shady tech strips out 2 bolt holes on the bellhousing, and breaks off one of the shifter bolts and glues it in. And it turns out that it had worn shifter bushings.
Now I get into it and work on the 2 stripped bolts that wont come out for an hour and still dont have the trans out and know that i have to remove that too.
I get it out and then find that all of the flywheel bolts are rounded off so I have to work on removing them too. Costing me 35 mniutes.
So I get it out and flywheel is off getting reground, I fix the stripped bolt holes/weld nuts what ever, another half hour of my time.
I get lucky and the busted bolt from shifter spins right out and luckily the shifter bushing pack is only $5.00 so I get it and make the setup work and clean all related parts. order /locate replacement bolts required.
So I have the added time to remove damaged parts and do repairs that I cant charge for because I quoted it for the same $452.49 plus tax.
I do add the stripped flywheel bolts to the ticket at cost. and eat the shifter bushings as I feel it just makes it a better job. Belhousing bolts are simple bolts and considered shop supplies, at least to me.
S oparts come back I clean and install the flywheel, install the clutch and reinstall the trans, bolt up and adjust theshifter and clutch, collect the busted, worn, stripped parts and put them in a bag and note everything on a ticket.
Now customer comes in with all the cash they could scrape up and cant afford the flywheel bolts so i allow at no charge to be the good guy and get into a discussion on how bad work may have caused the clutch to go out when the newly installed engine work was done.
So I have a job that pays me as a tech, say $20 of the shops $75 an hour charge but it took me extra time to get it apart, making machine shop pick up wait or my shop runner make an additional trip costing time and say I started at 8 am the car should have been done by !2 noon but instead I have to call customer and say its gonna be done before 5 pm, sorry but we had problems with previously installed bolts being damaged and taking more time to remove.
Now I have a tech who only gets paid for flat rate hrs clocked has an extra 2 hr and 5 minutes in the job.
Now the tech makes $58 to do this job but had to leave a cylinder head job that pays $136 (his rate) alone to fix THIS car because it was promised today and the head job is done when done.
BUT tech knows that he is only getting $58 for the clutch job.
BUT has regualr time involved getting things apart/cleaned and reinstalled ,plus hassle time to fix other problems.
Now if the service manager is honest he throw the tech some extra flat rate time on the back side of the ticket to make it fair for the work he did.
IF not he did an extra 2 hrs and 5 minutes for free. But if the person guestimating the job sells it at 1 1/2 hrs the tech only gets $30 for job that even the dealer tech gets 2.5 hrs for.
now the customer drives car finds the shifter slick and tight and the clutch holding perfectly even with healthy BBC in front.
Customer got the same price the next guy gets.
OK we get another car that comes in for simialr job:

1968 Camaro 350 SBC 4 speed, headers, aftermarket shifter, sub frame connectors, etc. Oh its balck too.

Customer complaint is it revs up real bad at stop lights and on hills.

Diagnosis: Clutch is worn out and needs replaced.

Clutch assembly, Renew (fac. time 2.5) Chilton manual 2.9 hrs
Flat rate hourly rate $75 dollars per flat rate hour.
Clutch assembly new, (life time warr) $199.99 (Shop labor warranty is 12 mo/12k miles.)
Outside labor to resurface flywheel $35.00
Now the current bill will be $452.49 with lifetime warranty to current owner for life of ownership. Labor is warrantied for 12mo/12k mile which ever comes first.

Now the tech has done 50 of these and know exactly what he can do and cant and which tools he needs to do the job.
He pulls car in the trans comes right out, the flywhhel is going out the door as soon as its off the crank.
Parts are here and flywheel is back and the tech gets it back together , installs shifter bushings just because the service manager feels its a good thing on these older cars and doesnt really cost the shop much.
Tech gets it done, because he knows what to do , which tools are needed and everything shows up on time and right.
He gets lucky and gets it done 1hr 45 minutes.
He is doing same basic job but it all went smoothly and took no extra time.
The tech still makes $58 on the job but because he is good he can go back to say a rear end rebuild a little quicker.
Now Damn True you think that I should be docked money from my paycheck because I am getting good at this job?
So I should guess at how much time it takes to do a job. If I had changed 7 alternators on a 95 Chevy Lumina with a 3.1 its an .8 job. The job comes in with written estimate but its a Lumina Z34 3.4 DOHC and the book time is something like 5.6 hrs to do.
But customer comes in, make a stink in front of 11 other customers, screaming that the shop is trying to rip a poor customer off, regardless of the fact that the estimate is for wrong model.
So customer still thinks its a rip off and asks for proof that it takes trhat long. Service manager brings in the chilton shop flat rate manual and shows it as a Lumina Z34 take 5.6 hrs, and the SM brings out 3 previous estimate/tickets on similar cars and shows the customer that it is a legitimate charge.
Every shop should run by flat rate manuals, if someone doesnt want to and gets bit on an estiamte it could put a shop out of buisness very fast.
It also lets acustomer know that everyone gets same charge.
Now if I guestimate a job and 4 yrs later I guestimate samae job but know it actually takes 3 hrs longer than last time I guestimated it. But customer comes up with old reciept and wants it for old price and I try to explain its not that simple it takes the book time to do said job.
do I stand by my uninformed 4 yr old jopb price or piss off a customer and be called a crook.
The flat rate service manual allows for uniform estimates and it is also a good tool for a tech/service manager to evaluate weather its gonna be today its done or tomorrow and allow shop planning for the days/next days jobs.
The flat rate for the clutch job is a standard charge from a 1974 Chilton flat rate manual.
I honestly dont understand why ,I , as a tech should get money taken out of my pocket for getting a job done quickly and properly.
But obviously you do.
So if you can do a job in 4 hrs and quote it as so, great but do you try to get more money if it takes you 6 hrs?
Probably not. But also in the same vein, if you have done it several times now and the job you figured(and found that at first)you could do in 4 hrs, but now becasue your experienced you can get it doen a little faster and maybe start the next job a little sooner and maybe get a jump on tomorrows jobs too.
Will you continue to reduce your charge for a certain job till you only get say 2 hrs worth of pay?
I would doubt it. And what if later on you have to go back to a slightly different way of doing said job and it goes back to being a 4 hr job, are you going to charge 4 hrs again?
Your thinking is that if a job is quoted at a price but the person doing it gets better at doing it he should be penalized for getting faster.
I do a job, I do it well and I charge a fair price to do it.
AND we try to charge equally on everyone.
It all averages out.
Now if its in your favor as customer great but if its gets into the techs pocket and he is good at it and knowledgeable then he soon will give it up and go get one of the factory jobs where it costs him nothing to do the job nad he doesnt get called a thief or a rippoff artist or what ever.
This is pathetic. A flat rate and parts guide gives everyone the same price and provides a fair labor rate to do a job.
I am a slower tech but I pride my self in doing a good job.
BUT I know that a brake job gives me 1.8 hr for brake job. IF I get good at it I can maybe get them done in 1.5 if I live in a rust belt area I may waste 30 minutes getting the rotor off so I can turn it(off car) but if I learn to hit it just so I can cut that to 15 minutes Istill only get 1.8 FRL for it, regardless, but if the next one takes 1 hr, breaks a tool and we have to fire up the torch to heat it up and go through 2 cans of pentratiing spray. I still only get 1.8 FRH.
Now your saying that if I price a brake job at $199.99 (and the ceramic pads cost $99.99. The tech, if it wasnt for me getting a set price per job, would only get paid 1.33 hrs FRH instead of 1.8FRH.
So why would he want a coupon ticket?
If he gets ripped off who cares?
He doesnt count only what the person bringing in a car ,expecting a quality job with a warranty on parts and labor and done on time.
Damn True I hope you can afford getting less and less and less money for getting better at your set job.
OK so lets put it in something you might understand, if Bob Cornerburner builds a specific part for pro touring cars and charges $100 per part and his materials cost is $20. It takes him 3 hrs to make that part at first. Once in a while he runs special of them at $89.99 to boost sales but keeps them coming at $100each.
BUT for some reason he has tool problems and makes them and sells them for same price but takes 4 hrs. more labor for less pay.
so after a few months he finds a tool that allows him to do them in 2.5 hrs with same quality, but that part/technique costs him $10,000 out of pocket should he reduce his costs or keep it the same price and keep making X doallars a month selling them and paying for that tool, but he has extra time to develop part B or clean the shop or maybe just not be rushed so much.

Guys I hope you all got so good you can snap your fingers and do anything instantly, then you never have to charge for anything,, just snap your fingers.
BUT to be fair and honest if a shop charges a proper price (this means that the people who made said car says it takes 4.5 hrs to do a job,,,industry research says it takes 4.9 on the normal average) fairly applied to each and every specific job. This is where flat rate time manual comes from.
These are not something pulled from thin air, been in a place that did that and litterally could not even make a decent check an shop is gone, guy never made enough money to stay open.
I take my cars to local guy to do exhaust because he does good work charges me the same every time and stands behind it. If he takes 5 minutes to do a 20 minute job its paid for what he asked. If it takes 2 hrs he doesnt charge me a penny more.
I really feel sorry for you not understanding the way car repair goes, the amount of money it takes to keep a shop open and techs paid, and parts coming in for them to install.
Its not a rippoff, its standardized price for every job so that Joe 1 and Joe 2 and Joe 99999 gets all priced the same.
But in your world if you do a 1000 whatever jobs and get $23 (say your flat rate hourly pay is this $23)each in a year,, you make $23.000 but if you do them in 35 minutes because you get good and have everything right handy on your shop cart and know your job,,,, we pay you for the same 1000 in a year but because you can do them in 35 minutes we are only gonna pay you $13.42 each. Now your only gonna make $13,420 doallar a year. so are you ever going to get fast or take 1 hr each and keep your pay at $23,000 a year.
Now is it clear? As for me if I figure I get good enough to have done 19.24 brake jobs average per week for a year, but get fast enough to get more jobs,hense make more money. So if I can utilize the extra time to get more jobs say 27.13 jobs per week avg/per year then i got a raise $25,474.80 So I make and extra $2474.80 a year.
I might be able to afford to buy a used car or something. That might be an extra $47.59 every week. wow an extra $0.99 per hour raise for working faster.
But in your opinion I should get a $3.84 per hour decrease in pay for the same jobs.
Just because I get better, more efficient, at my job.

Ok
I rip people off as a mechanic.
in your opinion.
I guess its true about opinions.
Lee

[TonyL]

wow Lee, your hands must hurt. That's quite a post there.

I can see both sides of this argument having worked in the industry myself. It's dishonest and wrong. It just is. If you tell someone that a job will take 4 hours at 75 an hour, they say "ok" and then you do the job in two, but bill them for 4.,pocket the 150 and giggle. You are a thief. NO MATTER THE INDUSTRY. It should work based on hours worked, with an established time that a job *should* take, so the consumer knows about what to expect.

Now. We all know it's the unforeseen problems that make this kind of work a pain and costs the people to do it money.

That's the difference between the point Lee here is trying to make. That losing money on one "unforeseen" cancels out the profit on the easy job. Realize though though that you're fiercely defending your livelihood here. Look at it from a consumers prospective. A contractor tells you how long something might take, a price is agreed on, and if it runs over, the consumer is told there will be more charges. There's really no logical way why this can't be done in the auto mechanic industry other than "But that'd take away all my quick profit."

[Damn True]

So again, are you telling me that a business cannot survive by charging time + materials + (a reasonable) OH&P?

Actually Lee, I get paid more as I get better at my job. I can't write any faster now than I could ten years ago, but what I write is better and of greater value so I get paid more. A bit like the attorney, architecht or engineer I mentioned earlier. When I, as they, were new at their vocation they/we dont and should'nt expect to be paid well. It is only with experience that one's value grows. One then, if he/she has 1/2 a brain will negotiate for compensation commensurate with their value.

If you are letting someone else assign a value for what you do, know, or produce you are selling yourself short.....or perhaps not.

Tony is absolutely right. The billing should be time+materials+OH&P. Yes there is opportunity for a dishonest organization to drag their feet so they can charge more work hours. But that is the beauty of a free market economy. The market will sort that out toute' sweet and the scammer will soon be out of business.

Tony, I am really glad you brought up contractors. Actually, on a big job it is in your best interest to protect yourself when dealing with a contractor by setting defined completion dates and pay schedules for various stages. Hell, we'll use the numbers for the remodel I am doing right now.

My contractor bid $540,000.00 to remodel this house.

It is incumbent upon him to closely examine the existing structure and property prior to making that bid to ensure that there are no "unforseen circumstances". Because once the contract is signed any "unforseen circumstance" is on him.

Why? Because it is his job to inspect the structure to determine if the foundation is in fact sound (bolt is stripped) or the roof trusses have termites (water pump has to be special ordered). A lack of planning, forethought and due dilligence on his part does not constitute an additional expense on mine.

So if he finishes the house in the agreed upon time, he will walk away with $540,000.00 which is the cost of materials (because he knows what the stuff is going to cost him) + the cost of his crews man hours (because he knows how long it takes his crew to put up "x" number of walls + his OH&P (18% below the line). If he is one day late he is losing money. If he is one day early I agreed to write him a check for $500 for every day he's early. But he wont rush it. Ya know why? Because that engineer that I mentioned above, and that architecht that I mentioned before will be on site at least once a week to ensure that every freakin nail is in the right place and no corners are cut.....and they charge hourly (about $250 per), for the work they do.

[lawbreaker2]

I just took the wife's truck to one of these "Ouick oil change places" cuz I was to lazy to do it my self, Well I take my big truck there all the time, and I sit and watch them, well this time I was sitting in the truck reading a car mag. and the guy was talking anout it being his llast day on the job, well I get home and a few days later I go under her truck to look over the under side of the truck and notice the oil filter all dirty and rusty:eek: so all dirty, I was pisted, I get in and run down there, and walk up to the store and the guy just looked at me and said, let me see here, your filter was not change out, YUP, so he set me up with a new oil change and a free one, he said this guy did that all day on friday, and thats all he has been doing all week is change oil for free.:machine: I know it's not his falt, and he made good, so all is ok for now.

[paul67]

When I handed my notice in on my last job I was not allowed anywhere near a machine, and that is normal practise, or they let you go and you do not have to work your notice, why do you think when someone that works on computers or on sensitive things etc is made to leave straight away from there desk etc, cause of the damage they could do. Also I would say the reason the US auto industry went down the pan was crap management and designs,which then p""s the work force off so you get crap work.You will find if people are happy in there work then they will do the job for less.

[Chad-1stGen]

True,

There are automotive repair shops that don't do flat rate hours. I suggest you support those shops if you feel others are being dishonest.

Personally, I'd rather find an honest flat rate shop. I'd rather that the estimated hours my vehicle's repair takes is developed by an independant 3rd party.

[vintageracer]

Monzaracer,

My comments attached to this thread are my opinion on the facts as I see it concerning the workforce in our great country. They are not directed at you personally or anyone else on this site.

That being said, if you are not happy with your job or income, a change is in order. You are correct, $350/week or about $30K/year is tough to make it on today. Where I live in Tennessee managers at McDonalds make $35-$45K. Sure, it's hard work but most work is! While this certainly may not be your career goal, there are alternatives to working by a time book.

Running a small business is not easy! My observation is that many small business owners would be better off working at McDonalds as a manager than running their own business. There are a lot of people working "for themselves" that are not making much money. The dream of owning your own business can become a nightmare very quickly.

I wish you success in overcoming your current situation.

[wedgehead]

In my auto repair shop i charge by the job and not the hour. it is fraud if you charge for 4hrs work and then do only 2hrs worth of labor. The body shop repair world is being hit by some lawsuits just for that reason. There is a push by some in the shop world to go to a by job pricing. The insurance companies do not want this as they cannot squeeze the shop by a said per hour labor. Many trade publications are publishing articles on this subject.

[MonzaRacer]

Ok so using a printed flat rate manual is a rip off.
Setting a price for a job is the same thing if you price a job at 2.5 hrs and stand by that time even if you have problems then your honest.
Now some shop will continue to repair if they get in and find out that something else is broke nad its gonna cost more to repair than the original estimate.
So the perso who contacts the owner informs them that it is going to cost more as there is more wrong than previously thought and a revised estimate is X amount.
Now the flat rate manual printed by several times is to insure that a random dreamed up price is not thrown at every person at a shop. If all shops use a flat rate manual they get a prescribed amount of cash for said job and they are chargeing the same for everyone, wearther it take the flat rate time or more or less.
Its a crap shoot if you run into problems and I bet if I quote you a job for $452 dollars but when you come to pick it up I have bill for an aditional $46 in labor and another $39 in parts you will scream bloddy murder and want me to give it to you for free or your gonna sue or some crap.
The flat Rate Manual is written for the tech so a job that the factory says take 3.2 hrs and the aftermarket says it may actually take 3.5 thats the difference after many people research what a job takes on the average.
But if I simply quote every clutch job at $1000 plus parts then give every one some cash back I wont be called a crook.
If you ask a lot of flat rate techs they would rather work for an hourly rate rather than FR. But if your a line tech doing water pumps all day long you mighty break even but for diag techs it gets kind of hairy cause some idiot comes in and wants the "box" hooked up and made to fix the car.Well it doesnt fix it, I do.
I run every test and check every part and if I am luck I know where a good place to start is and may even break even.
you guys obviously have never had to do a job for a quoted price and stick to it every time. I generally do have to stick to the time that is quoted. Now if I get good enough to beat the flat rate a little i can maybe get a raise on my own.
See flat rate techs only usually get raises if ythe yturn more hours, this means cars out the door. Not time on time clock card.
you may get a $1000 a year codst of living increase I dont.
My only way to get a rasie is to eithertry to turn more hours or switch jobs to get a better rate.
My shop every tech gets $23 a flat rate hour and thats it.
If I turn 20 hrs a week I get that if I turn 50 hrs a week i getthat. In the end it all evens out to about a $8 to$10 dollar an hour job.
I have the tools, training and knowledge to fix todays electronics ladden cars and if you even had a clue what some of these cars require to be diagnosed and fixed.
The average diag job will have me bring out around $10,000 in tools and those have a life span, they need up dates and repairs and new connectors etc. and the $1000 to go to a class to learn how to fix a new system installed on a car.
I guess you will never have a clue and think all mechanics are rip off artists.
I have a published manual with suggested rates to repair certain things on specific cars, I use it religiously and everyone gets treated fairly.
So you guys think I am rip off artist so be it. But I am not.
As for me ripping anyone off I abhor ripoffs.
But also in your line of thought I should know exactly how much the 05 Subaru WRX costs to change the clutch. I have never done one.
So where do I find out what the factory says it should take in time so I can charge accordingly,,,,,,,,a flat rate manual. So I estimate it at the manual time of 6.9 hrs plus parts and machine work and the customer approves the work, it takes me 15.5 hrs and Iget it done right and it works perfect. do I charge for the extra time or eat it?
In your worl I would charge for the 15.5 hrs still be branded a crook and a rip off artist.
now if I stick by my original estimate i get 6.9 hrs and a leason. The next car I do in 13 hrs and the next I do in 10 and then finally I get good enough to do them in 8.5 hrs and that flying together.
i never get what iactually have imn the jobs and yet I am the fastest guy around in town. should i just charge 8.5 hrs and make extra till some one in town desides to under cut me and make me out to be a rip off artist as the flat rate manual says it only take 6.9 hrs.
Now you would come back and swear by that book.
The book gives us an insite into the time involved in repairing some system on a car but never allows for problems, unfamiliar jobs etc.
And every person gets charged equally.
If vintage racer comes in and wants a clutch put in assuming he cant do it and I charge him a $100 to do it but Damn true comes in and I charge him $125 later on as I find its a hard job and needs extra money for labor ,well they meet at a car show ,match recipts and now I am a rip off artist. Regardless of the fact that I guessed it was a certain time frame job and guessed wrong.
so I raised prices to meet the time required to do it.
But come to find out it is a shorter time job on flat rate than I charge for I am over chargeing, but if I used the FRM it would have been $89 dollars.
so it helps and it hurts.
Flat rate time is a bitch to make good money on certain jobs you can get it some you dont.
It is not a rip off regardless of your opinion.
OH and I bet that every job on a helo had a labor time attached to it especially if it was work that warranty paid for (in a commersial world not military).
The flat rate is guideline that we go by ,but the newbie tech thats fresh out of tech school gets $x dollars for a X job and the 30 yr line tech gets same price. now the only way a 30 yr line tech gets more is by doing more, not by having a higher labor rate.
and as for a doing something in a contractor setting as ther are lots around here if they set a price they stand by it and thats what a mechanic does,weather he make a litte by beating FR time or not.
You will neverunderstand as I bet you would starve in a Flat Rate shop doing repairs if you agreed to give back time/money if you get good enough to do the job faster.
Lee

[mikey]

Amen Lee I totally agree with you. I like how thecustomer looks at you like you are crazy when you ask for more labor time to repair broken,rusted or rounded fasteners. I live and die by the flat rate manuals. I win some I lose some. As for techs being a crook think about this the next time you get in your car. It started or was repaired by someone who probably lost his ass doing it right
while you bitched about the cost. I repair every wreck like it was my own because someone I love or know may be in that car next time it’s wrecked. If it weren’t for us you would be walking or in a horse and buggy.I have approx. $40,000 in tools and personal equipment It all came out of my pocket. Every year the engineers see the need to design new fasteners. This requires more tools you can never eliminate the old stuff because you may need it. So that calls for a bigger box to store them right now my box is 6’x6’x3’ deep along with a 3 drawer roll around cart. Hopefully this is the biggest one I will need. I’m also required to maintain ICAR and ASE certifications. The ICAR costs me $75 per each 4 hour block all classes are 2 block min. some up to 8 blocks these are paid for by me and done on my time evenings and weekends. Also Damn True you say other professions charge you for actual hours worked do they give a discounted rate when the interns do the work for them? I would bet if you asked for it they would tell you to go fly a kite is that not a ripoff? If you think a auto tech is over charging you ask to see the manual the time came from. Also ask for the replaced part. Yes I know that I picked my profession I got into it because I love working on cars I just wish some people knew ½ of what it takes to fix a car correctly you would then appreciate us a little more.
By the way I’m against charging the customer for a job that wasn’t needed or done. Here is a quote I saw along time ago A doctor buries his mistakes I have to live with mine why
shouldn’t I be paid accordingly?

[BuddyP]

Always change my own oil in all our cars.

Jiffy Lube, Midas, ect. are all the same. Scamers

[MonzaRacer]

OK so I am getting off my defense mode.
The flat rate manual is a guideline that all techs should use to estimate a job.
Like Mikey says we live and die(starve) by a flat rate manual. The real good techs sometimes break flat rate, but if we do get good enough to beat the falt rate time it barely makes up for the hassles.
We get a customer who thinks we havent fixed thier car, or say we broke the brake light switch after replacing a belt and ahundred other things that come our way.
For the most part you can never equate the old greasy doofus that some people spoof about mechanics.
For the record most of the techs in the industry spend several thousands of dollars to do the job we chose to. We read trade magazines every month, do research and we have to fight for enough information and proper tools to repair some of the new cars.
WE spend many hours off the clock learning and training and testing to stay ahead of ignorant fools who think we are all crooks.
AS a whole the industry has too many crooks but the Flat Rate Manual is an more or less rule book we have to go by, a collection of times compiled so we dont screwed on a job AND the customer doesnt get screwed either.
Dont take this the wrong way but if I charge 100 differenct people 2.5 hours to do a specific job ,by flat rate, and never deviate from my pricing regardless of the fact that 75 of those jobs took 3.5 hours and 25 took 2 hours it comes in that I win some and some I lose on. BUT every customer is charged equally and fairly based on an industry wides reference manual.
Now should i have guessed that job would take an 1hr and then rip that customer and charged 4 hrs when they come in as it took longer or do I use a manual that gives me a time ,industry wide, to estiamte for.I use the manual.
Now also if I have a water pump on a car go out and I advertise a nation wide guarantee I have to pay another shop 5 hrs away to fix that car but he says it take 6 hrs and I say it takes 3 and thats what I am wiulling to pay, That water pump may neverget fixed or I get sued for not honoring my warranty.
Gennerally the part can be warrantied nation wide through another franchise say Iused NAPA and it has a 1 yr warranty an is only 3 months ol, then I fax a copy of my part reciept to that shops NAPA nad they get a free water pump covered by NAPA warrany.
But I have to have reference to not have to pay the other shops gouging price,,,the Flat rate manual states it takes 2.8 hrs, because I find that if you dont take another part off it can get broke(which I learned the hard expensive way) I charge a few extra tenths to remove that part too and even allow the other shop the same amount of flat rate time AT HIS SHOP RATE NOT MINE,,which means that I may charge $50 per shop flat rate hour but he does it for $75 but will knock it down to say $67.50 as a courtesy (as he figures he should not get into any frozen stripped bolts etc) to me. I will pay even more than my shop made on the job and probably have several long distance calls to get it going.
But I bet that customer will come back because even though the car broke down I got him fixed ,,,even out of town.
The flat rate manual gives me an industry recognized time reference to estimate by.
If I have to repalce a part and the local p[ats house pays me warranty time on defective parts changing I have to have a way to get paid as he may only want to pay .5 hrs but it takes 2hrs to to do a job, all because I used his part but if I go to the Mitchel, Motor, Chilton, AllData flat rate manual they give me the industry recognized rate of 2 hrs to do that job then I can pull out a book and show him this the flat rate time. now most of those companies have a rate that ashop unknowingly signs onto to have a charge account with, which while we may make $75 a flat rate hour we agree to say $55 a flat rate hour on warranty. At least Iget some recompense to having a warranty claim.

Ok now Damn True, you say its a rip off, but if you look at a brake ticket but do not see what it breaks down to:
Standard brake job disc/drum per axle 1.0 hr
Turn 1 drum or rotor 0.5 hr
Each next per axle 0.3hr (this is assuming that you dont have to take time to find proper adapters, change bits on machine ,etc.
Take each axle at 1.8 hrs,,this comes up to 3.6 hrs total for a brake job and that includes changing hardware, freeing up adjusters, cleaning and lubricating wear points and inspection time/test drive.
Now if the shop has the tech only do the brake job but has a machine shop operator turn the rotors/drums and they only charges a set price, how do you give any money to the machinist,,,, he gets the machine shop labor.
I had an uncle who had a shop and when it was going good he could get several engine swaps out in a week and would just look at the car to estimate it.
Now when it started coming to estimating the newer front wheel drive cars, he had no clue on what to charge. He buys a flat rate manual and finds that on some jobs that take a long time but he is only getting $XXX for actually take twice as long as the 10 year older car ,but he was getting paid same amount AND on some newer stuff the flat rate manual also give the tech/shopowner a good range on what is actually involved in doing a job.
Flat Rate sucks and if you think you can beat flat rate and take home a good check every pay day ,,try it.
While some guys have shops and will guess,what happens when all his bills come in or customers figure out that they are getting ripped off. IF he guessed right he makes enoughto keep the lights on, heat on, parts coming, insurance, workmans comp insureance, matching funds for retirements, soc. sec., damaged/broken parts that cant be charged, shop insurance, and all the other little things that eat into the bottom line.
OH yeah Iforgot about the tech that you think ought to never get a chance to get faster and better at his job so as to maybe make more in a week/year.
To all who think flat rate is a good way to get paid ,,try it. And you will find out very soon that it is a win/lose way of work.
I went from a shop that I worked at for 3.5 yrs, had a guaranteed min pay each week and a gennerally solid relationship with the Service manager/manager and could make out ok most times per job but at end of week no hitting my min hour made me very hard pressed to do anything.
I am now in a shop that I make $9.00 more per flat rate hour BUT no guaranteed min, so far no insurance, and I am still trying to settle in to the shop flow and get my way of doing things organized.
BUT I rare ly make any more money and sometimes I dont make as much.
And I am so broke right now I cant afford to change jobs.
At one time I felt I wanted to get paid hourly but with flat rate, if I can get my flow going so to speak I may actually be able to make more.
Now in a sho pwhere the customer never sees the job/car/owner he simply gets handed a ticket to do a job, how do I knowits being priced properly for me to get paid,,,uh hand me the flat rate manual and i can look at what it says that job has alloted to it time wise.
BUT in your idea I should let an ignorant person who never worked on a specific car GUESS what the job takes to do.
HAHAHAHAHA.
We live and die by flat rate manuals and oh get this so does the tech who does warranty work on your cars regardless of whats wrong, which brand, etc. has to go by a flat rate labor price, this is what GM pays the dealer to repair your car,,,period.
OH and as for the difference between me and a dealer tech ,,,the palce I work and the condition of the tools I use as most dealers have to buy more new tools everytime a new car line comes out, replace worn tools and such, and they still pay same price for the other things that comercial shops do.
I have worked for Ford, GM/GEO dealers and I quarantee your not gonna get them to "guess" what it costs to do a job,,,they will pull out the flat rate manual.
OH I guess you only want free work where the tech/shop gets paid properly but if you dont get it free you want the guy doing it to starve.
Also without disecting the ticket who ever saw you never know just what all was done, was it getng to more than one job done, where there other procedures done you never saw.
OH thats right you think that if I/or other techs get better at my job I/or other techs should taker a pay decrease because we got good at one specific job?
HMMM
I bet if you pay someone to mow your lawn for $100 each week/month and he buys a faster lawn mower but still gets it done nicely but in an hour less time is he going to give you money back,,,nope he is going to try and gethis help to squeeze in another lawn ,which over a period of time will pay for better equipment, more people, letting him make more money and get better/or newer equipment.
Uninformed narrow minded people have no clue what my job takes ans I dont think you will, ever.
And now you try and prejudice a lot of people about having work done by certified techs that use an industry wide used manual to be fair to everyone, oh but I guess I am the grease stained ignorant fool that just hits it with my wrench till its fixed.
Oh and i go sit on my pile of extra money giggleing that I ripped someone off.
This thread and trying to teach you something (and you ignore the reasons for the use of such things) so you understand its not a way to rip off but a way to be fair to everyone. Is getting very stupid.
Oh Ill bring up a car and ask you to tune it up and Ill guess the job at 1 hr and you get say $15 of the $50 the mythical shop charges per hour.
4 hrs later you come in all hot sweaty and scratched and cut and the car wont run right anymore and you will cuss me out and quit.
Now i look in a Flat Rate Manual and it says it takes 2.6 hrs to d othe job,,wow you just figured out that I cant guess and you should ahve went back up and said it required more tools and time to do the job.
So we find the right tool, go back over the job ,in proper sequence and find you broke 3 plugs and left 2 wire loose .
BUT without knowing that the manual says it takes longer to do that specific car and finding it takes a special tool to tilt the engine and low and behole you figure out that on average(this being the first time with proper tools and techniques) it take between 2.4 and 2.7 hrs.
NOW lets ay you get the car in and have done 50 of them are you going to want that 2.6 hrs of time or are we just gonna have you get paid the 1.3 hrs it takes you now because your experienced and knwledgeable and have the $85 tool to help do the job faster and properly.
If I get faster at a job I break even or loose a little over my lifetime by flat rate. BUT the customer gets the same charge 5 time he does that tune up BECAUSE of the flat rate manual.
NOW the shop over ,say 5 yrs has increased thier labor rate a dollar or two each year but for X rater per hour they are still getting same service,,,but I ber the tech isnt getting much more if any more on the Flat Rate hour.
Flat rate is imply a way of breaking a job down into smaller increments so it can be sorted out ,say if 2 different techs work on it one mayget aprt and the other get part,,but how would we pay them if its just a guestimate by someone of a $300 job, how can you be fair and honest?
Thats where flat rate time comes in.
Now you wont understand and will never understand so I hope you never have to depend on a quality shop to charge for a job the same every time.
Anotherthing a Flat Rate manual does is allow several people to estimate for the sme job and be very similar if not exatly the same every time.
Oh and if every shop uses FRM on the old Camaro job then they are all charging equally.
Every industry has a charge for something and puts it on a list and this is a flat charge, regardless of the time involved to achieve said process.
My step mother had windows installed and they quoted 3 windows installed at XXX dollars each first 2 they slammed them in very quickly,,, the 3rd was an all day job and they lost thier asses on that one and the job that wassupposed to be done after my step mothers. Hey maybe they should have stuck a gun to her head and tried to get more money for the long job,,,they stood by thier estimate and for the most part unless its for much more extra work, a shop will fix a car for the estimate price,,,,even if they lost money on it.
Lee

[MonzaRacer]

Hey wedge head if you got enough buisness nd tech willing to work for an hourly rate good for you. But your still charging by flat rate but instead of it being industry standard its Wedgehead standard. Its in your head not on paper.
Waht if the job you "quote" at 4 hrs takes 12 hrs and 2 extra guys because you underestimated it.
You must love putting off other work and paying extra money to do a specific job.
If your shop prospers that way great but in some areas you would be out of buisness and fast if you can quote times from a flat rate manual and stand by it.
Like I said some dont understand it but its not a ripoff scheme,,, its way to provide a properly referenced/documented estimate.
And dont get me wrong some techs will beat flat rate some dont but they are both getting paid same to do the same job. and 5 customers get equal pricing for same jobs.
But in Damn trues Vein a slow new tech would get a bettter deal and the experienced tech would make less because the shop would charge less.
Hmm must be new math, I thought as I got better and faster I should make more money.
In flat rate I am making more money by moving more cars not taking it all from on person if I can beat flat rate.
And again with flat rate we may make a little extra on one job but loose on another but we have a reference to go by the customer for year will all ge tthe same charge, evenly. the shop and the tech take the hit for jobs taking longer.
If we guess on the job then one brake job on a 86 Cavalier would be $75(1 hr) but the one where the tech has to do a lot of extra work to fix problems might cost $250 in labor for the same job.
This is assuming new rotors rather than turning.
It kills the tech sometimes. But thats the job.
Now wedgehead if you ever want to come to indiana and pay me an hourly rate to work on cars I could really live on a set pay rate per week over the ups and downs on Flat Rate.
I used to work for $8.75 hr with time and a half for overtime over 4 hrs, 23% of the bottom of the ticket labor and 5% of the parts ticket. A little better in that repspect but that shop is gone.
Oh well according to Damn True I am a crook.
Lee

[JohnnyZ28]

and people think we at the dealerships are crooks.

You guys still are. You just charge more in the process. :lmao:

j/k

[JohnnyZ28]

I can't believe there are people in this thread actually argueing against the flat rate manual.

That is saying that as time goes on and a tech becomes more proficient he should actually get paid less per job as he can do the job faster.

In my current industry I send out field technicians for house installs, etc. We have inhouse techs who are paid hourly. The inhouse techs are paid the same for the day whether they do one install or 30 installs.

Now, on the flip side, we also have contractors. Our service contractors will pick up two to three times as many jobs as our inhouse techs. The contractors are paid on what we feel is a necessary charge for an installation. What if the tech needs to install a new phone jack? The contractor would make $45 to install that jack. What if the tech does it in 10 minutes? He makes $45. What if the jack needs to be installed on an interior finished wall and it now takes him 3 hours? Guess what, he still makes $45. This is just a small example.

People will also complain that contractors that we use are scammers. This is not true. They have to pay for their own insurance out of pocket, their own vehicle, their own supplies, their own gasoline, etc. Therefor they are compensated more than our inhouse labor techs. The contractors can make 2-3x more per year than our own inhouse labor. However, the contractors bust their balls day in and day out to make the extra cash.

We will also have people complaining that contractors rush jobs and do a poor job. This is also bull****. If a tech does a ****ty job and we have to go back to the job site, guess who gets his pay docked for that job? The contractor will lose his pay for that job and instead lost money as he had to pay his own way to get to the job site.

Thank God I can do most of my own work. If I ever need work to be done it is covered under warranty by the dealership. There are some times where I need to go to a speed shop or mom and pop exhaust shop, but I have been there before and I know they are fair in the work they do....

[Damn True]

You guys can whine and complain and cite every bizzare justification for it you want. But if you charge for 4hrs of labor and you only worked for 2 it's stealing. You just got paid for something you didn't do.

No way to justify it, you are a theif.

[TonyL]

That is saying that as time goes on and a tech becomes more proficient he should actually get paid less per job as he can do the job faster.

WRONG.

You want to charge the same price to do the job in less time? FINE.

as a consumer I'd pay the better, faster guy.

*Say it this way.*

Pep boys charges 45 an hour for 4 hours on this job. I'll do it in TWO for 90. *you'll get your car back faster*. That's all you'd need to do.
You're better than the holy book says you should be, and you should be able to charge for that expertise. Or god forbid, CHARGE BY THE JOB. and inflate the prices to reflect what it really costs.

(aimed at the industry and not the individuals in the thread here)
Stop LYING to people about how long it takes you to do a job as an industry. The system (the flat rate books) are a sham. It's a broken, crooked system, that you are ABUSING to make money. Just because "It's always been done that way." don't make it OK. It wrong to charge for labor you didn't work, period. Show me ANY other industry where they can legally do that.

The doctors office analogy doesn't hold up. It's billed per visit, or for a "one hour minimum" It's fair because the doctor has told you *up front* that you're being screwed. Mechanics screw you and don't tell you. I know, I WAS one, and even though I profited by this practice, (and a host of other shady crap my boss did.) I knew it was wrong, so I quit, and that's no lie. I couldn't live with the fact we were screwing customers and vendors out of money every day.

[Hidro]

Ok so using a printed flat rate manual is a rip off.



Had to quote you after you went through all that to defend it.

:bsjerk:

In the plastics industry I bid the job from experience and thats the price the customer agrees to pay.If it takes less time to finish the job i dont make any more money i just finish the job in less time and ship sooner.
It would get rediculous if the whole job was charged by the hour.Id rather control costs and maximize profits.

Im self employed.

Just my 2c

[Crank]

Well you know what? I always ALWAYS get a price upfront... and I agree to pay that price. They agree to do it for that price, if they get it done in record time, I still pay them to do that job, because either I didnt have the time or knowledge to do it, if they do it slower than they thought, they have to eat that time... So if one job gets finished in record time, but that owner agrees to pay that money for that job, then the next job goes slower than the mech. doing the maintenance, they can eat into that time from the earlier job. It all balances out. Sometimes not so good for the mechanic, sometimes it is good for them... Tell ya what, if you dont like it, either learn to do the work yourself, and not have to take it to the dealer to get fixed, or work with someone who will do maintenance one your car hourly...
Brandon

[mikey]

Well you know what? I always ALWAYS get a price upfront... and I agree to pay that price. They agree to do it for that price, if they get it done in record time, I still pay them to do that job, because either I didnt have the time or knowledge to do it, if they do it slower than they thought, they have to eat that time... So if one job gets finished in record time, but that owner agrees to pay that money for that job, then the next job goes slower than the mech. doing the maintenance, they can eat into that time from the earlier job. It all balances out. Sometimes not so good for the mechanic, sometimes it is good for them... Tell ya what, if you dont like it, either learn to do the work yourself, and not have to take it to the dealer to get fixed, or work with someone who will do maintenance one your car hourly...
Brandon
I'm glad to see a few people finally understand what myself and monzaracer has been trying to explain. There's things I can't or don't want to do. They give me a price if I don't like it I do something else. On the other hand if it takes longer than estimatedand they have worked their ass off to fix it I will pay a reasonable additional amount.
Damntrue you have got one heck of a chip on your shoulder towards auto techs so I suggest you learn to fix it yourself and don't forget the $20,000 plus in tools and diag. equip you'll need. Have a nice day:banghead: A very proud auto tech/theif:thankyou:

[TonyL]

No. I don't think you're getting it mikey. I don't think we're discussing the same thing here. We're discussing the verbage. The language that is used in the transaction process itself being a dishonest and abusable practice.

Agreeing to pay a price up front is one thing. Telling a customer that a brake job will be 250.00 up front (barring any unforeseen expense type disclaimer to protect the shop) is one thing. Saying that a brake job will take 2 hours at 125.00 per hour, then doing the job in ONE hour and charging for TWO is another thing ENTIRELY. Hear the difference? One is a *lie* and the other is not.

EVERY job requires tools and training that are expensive. Those costs are built into what those jobs charge. (lets be silly and call it "overhead") You guys keep thinking that you deserve special treatment because your job is YOUR job. Every other similar type career has built those costs into how they charge. Why cant you? An HVAC repair man tells me a compressor replacement is 500 bucks. Flat. If he changes it in an hour, fine. If it takes several hours, his boss gets pissed at him losing money for the shop. But still charges me the same. If it's taking longer because of something *else* being wrong, I get a call, and am told that I'll be charged for replacing an orifice, and to have the lines cleaned and have a filter installed. These costs are understood in advance. They are not slaves to some book. They have one. It tells them how long a job *should* take. And when the tech runs over that time, they start applying heat to the tech to get done faster or fire the guy. Books tell people how long jobs take, not what to charge, is what I'm saying. If you think the book is setup with jobs allotted too much time, charge more per hour on those jobs to soak up the difference.

Shops charge by the hour. Then cheat and do work in less time than they charged the customer for.

Read that sentence alone. Stare at it. Let that soak in.

Charge, per hour, Lie about how long it took, collect money. Profit.

Does that *really* look honest to you? If so, what world do you live in?
Your expenses are YOURS, you chose that for a job, I'm sorry that the structure of the *book* doesn't take into account your needs as a mechanic for the price of tools, diagnostic equipment,food, a roof, children's braces, etc.

Here's an idea: Change the *book.* Change it to a system that's fair for both you and the consumer. And maybe people would stop thinking mechanics=crooks.

[MonzaRacer]

Tony, We are expected to give a price up front, in writing and barring major unseen problems we have to stick to that price regardless.
you guys keep saying we are ripping a customer off but you never look at what it is something takes to do.
you have Corvair and you probably could get that car aprt and back together blind folded,,,now but when you first started getting into it Ibet you was slow on working on one.
Now if the dealer had to repalce an engine for warranty way back when the mechanic got paid the warranty flat rate , no more no less.
If it took him all week and he never had seen one nor had the manuals yet he could take a lot of time getting it out and back in. If he got off that at times to cool off from getting mad at it confused etc. he might get some jobs he could actually break the book time on, then get mack on that engine swap.
Now if a tech takes longer to do a job that it books for he looses money.BUT if he can get good enough (read that smart, experienced, and equipt) that he can shave 10 minutes off a 2 hr job he gets to drink a coke, smoke a cig ,whatever. then move on, or go to the next job. AND and at the end of the day he might have made an 8 hours flat rate or he might have only made 3.5.
but you say that if he can do it a few minute faster each time he should get his paycheck cut because he is faster.
Now your saying that a person doing manual labor should get less and less money for a job because he gets better at it.
BUT you miss the major fact, we dont get hourly payi fwe dont turn a wrench we dont make anything unless theshop has a guaranteed minimum for keeping the guy from quiting and going on welfare.
The only raise I get(ie higher pay check is to turn more flat rate hours ,which in turn means getting more cars done and done properly.
We charge a specific chrage for a specific job same as the HVAC guy, if we dont beat the flat rate we get chewed out too with out good resons why.
I bet if he gets done a few minute early they still charge what they quote,always have when I had stuff worked on.
We use a documented labor rate, with a documented labor time and we have to stand by it overor under we stand by it.
If you go to a diesel truck shop they charge by flat rate , if you go to a mower repair shop (done that too) we had flat rates for repairing the transmissions on Snapper Lawn mowers, the first 2 I did in a day each and when I finally quit I could do ona and a half in the morning and finsh that 3 rd and 2 more by 5 or 5:30 , I still made $25.00 out of the $100 in labor plus the shop made everything on the parts. If I did a tune up on any single cylinder Briggs I got $9.50 on Tecumseh $13.50 each. I never made any more money except if I could do more jobs.
In your world because igot real good at the rebuilds I shouldnt get my $25 bucks per, I should give part of it back, just because I could do more in a day after about a 1000 of them.
I will bet that someone out there can build a Muncie 4 speed in an hour but I bet he isnt gonna charge any less to do than when he started so many years before.
My chossen career isnt a rip of nor am I. regardless of what you think. We charge by a standardized rate.
Now if you want to pay the shop $125 an hour we will charge more per hour done till the job is done.
Tony, in a shop with 6 techs, 4 GS (we call them General slaves) it cost between $1200 and $1800 perday to open up, just to open the doors. Regarless of the work that may come in, or be billed.
Now if those techs are standing around they make nothing (unless they have a guaranteed minimum which is starving) so if 25 brake jobs come in we may be guranteed $XX per brake job no more, no less. so we are goin to try and get that job done as quickly and completely as possible because a comeback comes out of our time to do regular paid work. Now you say that if we make $14 out of the brake job but we dont getraises or overtime we get $14 per brake job we should give back 4 dollars of it because we have all the tools a handy in our cart, we have them memorized and can get it apart and back together a little faster, then why would we want to get faster and how wouldwe make any moneyif it pays an hr and we can only do 8 a day then we never get a raise. so you do what ever you do but you never get a rasie regardless of how efficient you get at that job you would quit.
Figure this if you get wiper blade replaced it has a labor op, someone gets that time either the shop or the tech. Now if its raining the owrst rain storm you have ever seen your willing to pay a guy $4.04 to install them and maybe even give him a tip.
If someone installs a light bulb it has a labor op, and someone gets paid to do that .
Now if I could get a shop, well equipt, well ran to pay me hourly for my job I would do it in a heart beat. BUT those shops dont stick around very long as they ususally go broke.
Mostly for undercharging for big jobs.
Regardless of the car you buy there is ,somewhere, a labor rate manual to give the factory, shops and tech a guideline for charging a fair price to do said job.
THere has to be or shop a is gonna argue it 5 hrs and shop b is gonna argue it6 hrs ,,when the actual time is 4.4 hrs,,,now who is in the wrong. In your assumption the shops not using a flatrate manual are ripping you off.
but if the techs stating out do it in 8 hrs and the experienced techs know it take 5.5 to 6 hrs to do it who is getting ripped, oh thats right the flat rate is a rip off.
you take a few instances that the tech has a good handle on the job, can dio it very fast and has no problems and sya its a rip off. wecharge by the job but we use a printed rate, we stand by that rate even if it kills us finacially.
so in Damn True and Tony Ls world we get no raises and make lessas we get better at our job.
Tell that to the next tech who does warranty work on your new cars and see how fast your car gets done, he isnt ripping you off he is simply takingthe time alotted for the job.
and he will never buy a new car as you will because you can make more than he can and you dont want him to either you want him to give money back.
BUT if the 2 of you have brakes done exactly the same car but Tonys tookan extra hour because of a locked up bolt I gurantee Tony will bitch when he sees Damn Trues bill for same job. now if its charge under flat rate you both pay the same unless othe labor time is asked for and authorized (which a service manager should do but rarelywill cause he wants to keep the customers happy, but if the SM wants to kee pthe tech happy he will find a way to flag him a few tenths for doing extra work but this eats into a shop s bottom line but keeps a tech happy to d oa good job.
Get a flat rate manual and fuigure out who much mony you might make as a tech on your own cars, then go lookatsomething new/different and see how fast you can make a decent living.
Our (honest technicians) job is hard enough without some idiot coming in and telling me I ripped him off but has no idea on what I had to do to fix his car or the amount of time it takes.
Trust this ther are very few shops that dont have to fight for every customer to get them and to keep them. If we were actually ripping anyone off we would be out of buisness.
My boss is in the ASA ,BBB and we are one of the ASE Blue Seal rated shops around. These ratings and certifications are hard to get and even harder to keep and they can be pulled and hard or impossible to get back if we are actually ripping a customer off. With our work we give parts and labor warrantiees, take customers home, have free coffee, a well lit clean shop, pretty much decent equipment to work with and my boss the owner is deeply religious too. We have a very good customer base and very satified customers. We even get the local schools bus repairs which have to meet DOT inspections, semi work which has to meet DOT inspections.
I work my ass off and I never get to even break even on an 80 hour pay period in my opinion.
Heck my boss was saying that if a tech wasnt turning 30 hrs a week in flat rate he was looseing money on each tech with insurance and all.
I havent even turned in my insurance papers yet because I feel I need to get my hours up BUT thats me.
Does my boss have money ,yeah he has a buisness and thats what its for, does he drive newer cars, yes. Do we rip a customer off. NO
Walk a mile in my shoes before you judge. A few people in here actually understand what I say and why and several are so narrow minded that they have no clue what my job entails let alon how the stnadard can hurt or help.
BUT if you try to get Jasper Engines to pay an extra 3 hours the job actually takes, get lost you get a check for X dollars at thier leisure.
They pay flat rate, Ford pays it, GM pays it heck When I worked for Firestone I had to do warranty work on AC because a different Firestone shop had a tech that didnt understand how to do a conversion properly. we looked in the book for R&R Ac compressor, R&R drier,R&R orrifice tube, stnadard charge for evac/reccharge and parts. I got it done and was still over the flat rate by 1hr and I was *******s and elbows all day getting it done.
I had done this type of car before and the flat rate sucked on it.
That girl had room mate (college town) with same car and told her how I was good at it and I got that car too and it was a complete repair (same as the other one) and it was an 1hr longer than flat rate but we stuck by it.
There is no extra time to remove the power stereing pump which you have to remove the pulley, then the lines and then the pump.
BUT to get the compressor out with out lifting the engine you have to do it. and the flat rate has nothing in it for that.

[MonzaRacer]

Oh yeah i have to buy most of the tools I use on my own.

[mikey]

Shops charge by the hour. Then cheat and do work in less time than they charged the customer for.


I don't cheat I'm able in some cases to beat the book time by repetition. I invest in tools that enable me to do the jobs faster and more efficiently. Yes if I only used hand tools and walked back and forth (box to job) instead of gathering required tools in one trip I would be slower. To quote Damntrue I should give him a break because of my experience. I have learned to not waste a motion and work smarter not harder. Although I still have to work my butt off to get 40 plus hours a week. So because I'm faster than the next guy while charging the same fair and agreed to price I'm screwing the customer. I can't win because if I charge the same price (less hours but more per hour )I'm still ripping them by charging too much for the total amount. If you upsell something fraudulantly and charge for it you should have your nuts put in a vice under the control of the customer you screwed.

[Crank]

Just do this then. Go to an HOURLY RATE PLACE or JUST AGREE TO THE PRICE UP FRONT... I always, ALWAYS get a price quote, and if the place doing the maintainer goes over the hours for that price, thats their tuff titty, if they do it in SMOKING TIME, I have already agreed to that price, or else they wouldnt have my keys... POINT BLANK
Brandon

[MonzaRacer]

Whoa whoa whoa, you guys think we take a job in and then tell the customer how much it costs?
not hardly.
We take a car in inspect it , extimate the work by a standard set on paper, computed, disected and strangled into a supposedly fair priice all around. We call or meet with the customer and get approval to do said work. Now I did a timing chain and gears and replaced thoile pan previously removed by anothrt tech on a buick V6.
The whole ticket had 8.6 hours on it with regualr diag time and auth for partial dissassembly to diagnose, the cam sensor magnet had came out and went through the timing set and took the cam tensioner rubbing block off,and replace the balancer which ahd come apart too.
Of that i will get about 7 of those hours and had about 10 in it. with clean up and reinspecting everything before it went back together and waiting on parts it was a 2 day job and had our rack tied up for 2 days.
luckily in the time waiting for parts I had a different vehicle to finish right beside it and parts came in for it.
We always estimate our jobs before reairs are started. UNLESS its a job that we tell the customer is by the hour and we will go only as far as the customer wants, ie a set up front number of hours and see how far it goes then agree on more time.
Brandon I think you understand.
We dont guess and its not developed to rip anyone off. its ment to give an exact time rate to estimate a job by before we ever start and we stand by it regardless of the circumstances UNLES it something like we get into a head gasket job and find a crank cylinder ,then we call customer back and give them the option of picking it back up and junking it, selling it or we can guess how much time we actually have into it, only charge for that and then estimate a complete engien or rebuild with sleeve or what ever.
One of the machine shops I worked for had an industry average flat rate number they plugged in for every thing involved in machining an engine.
It made for some wired numbers for say polishing a crank or grinding a crank or pressing pistons. or cylinderhead work.
Like I have stated UNLESS the tech is very fast making a LOT of money on flat rate is a bitch.
Now if I got to do only brakes all week for a year I would get real fast but if I then get to do an alignment I am going to be very slow on that till I get back into my alignment mode again.
Also if you ever had to pay flat rate on certain jobs ,,like alignments you would scream bloody murder as some have some serious alignment flat rates. and others only have set the toe and let them go,,,most shops just have a flat rate for 2wheel thrust and a set rate for 4 wheel thrust but may charge extra for shims or installing alignment products.
WE set a price, if we beat it so be it but if we dont thenwe eat it. In the long run I barely make it because I dont get in big rushes to getit done I make sure each one is right before I let it go.
As for the hourly rate shops they are few and far between as they go broke very fast. a select few get by because they may do some specialty work and can charge by the hour of work done rather than a flat rate charge.
If a customer wants to know what the industry agrees a it takes to do a job we can pull out the book. I sometimes break flat rate and sometimes dont, most times dont,, and its on me not the customer.
Lee

[Crank]

I prefer to think of it like this... Is it worth me paying 50 bucks an hour or 65 or whatever the case may be depending on the type of work you are doing... but is it worth paying 50 bucks an hour for someone else to do a job, or should I do it? If i dont know how to do it, or dont have the skills, like an alighnment, 50 bucks at the dealership is PRETTY cheap for something I dont have the tools, and skills and knowhow to do... May only take 20 minutes... but still I think its worth 50... Is it worth paying someone 1000 bucks to change an engine for me? I know people that can change an engine out in an evening. A thousand bucks for that? Can I do it? Yes... Can sally down the street change and engine out? No, so she's probably gonna pay that much... Thats what it comes down to, whether or not you'll pay this certain amount of money to have this certain job done, whether it takes them 2 hours or 2 days... To me, I think you pay for the job being done, not the hours it takes to do it, look at it like that...
Brandon

[ProVette]

Wow..........

[TonyL]

Don't get us wrong Lee, we see where you are coming from. And why this practice is what it is. Running a shop is expensive and profit has to come from somewhere. Everyone understands this. Under the current system, flat rates can really hurt a business competing against an hourly shop, jamming through jobs one after the other. Which is why I've said what I did. The whole industry needs revamping. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be anyone coming up with any solutions. I don't have one. It's something that will evolve over time, Shop rates will creep up as shops come under the microscope more and more and are made accountable for what they charge. The video that this thread started with is testament to that fact. People are wising up and getting tired of getting charged for work not done, and time not spent. Checks will eventually be put into place that will ensure people are getting what they've paid for. Right about that time the industry will figure out how to charge what it costs to run a shop without having to cheat the books or cut corners. The whole industry will be better for it. People will stop thinking of car mechanics as crooks. When will that happen? How will that happen? We'll all just have to wait and see.

For now, since this thread is going nowhere, and all points have been stated as well and as thoughtfully as possible. I'm gonna close the thread before it deteriorates into an unpleasant thread.

Let those that disagree, agree to disagree and leave it at that.

/thanks for keeping it civil in here!