New to board - need help (69 camaro)

[smittys69]

Hello to everyone and I want to thank you in advance for helping me build my 69. I have a 69 SS SB camaro that is currently stripped to bare metal and in the paint shop. I would like to get the pro-touring look without breaking my bank account. I need help mainly with the rear suspension and tire sizes. What is the largest wheel/tire combo that I can fit under the stock rear (currently drum brakes, multi leaf, 12 bolt posi). If I install the DSE mini tub, would I need to install their whole kit or could I get by with the tubs only? What mods would I need to do with the frame rail when I install the mini tub? Thanks for your help!

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Welcome aboard!

To answer your questions, the largest wheel / tire combo you can fit under your '69 with no rubbing is going to be a 17x9.5 w/ 5.5" of backspacing and a 275/40/17. 18x9.5 would work also. Some people have gotten away with a 17x10 or 18x10 w/ 5.5-5.75" backspacing and a 285 series tire, but it's really tight and you'll definitely have to roll the lip.

As for the DSE mini-tub kit, you can just use the tubs, but you'll also need some offset shackles (unless you're going with a non-leaf sprung rear susp.) and you'll need to fab up a crossmember similar to theirs. Frame rail mods depend on how big of a tire you want to stuff back there. If you want a 335 series tire, you'll have to notch the frame rail. You may be able to stick a 315 back there with rolled rear lips and not have to notch the rails, but it's going to be tight. If you're running leaf springs, you'll also need to narrow your gas tank.

[smittys69]

Thanks for the help. I looked into the DSE mod a little more and also saw that you had to narrow the gas tank as you said. Seems like one thing leads to another. Sounds like I can get the pro-tour look without making mods to my car but my concern is that I am cutting out the quarters to replace the inner and outer wheel housings and thought that now would be the time to widen things up a bit. Do you have any information (or direct me somewhere) on notching the frame rails and installing the new shock mount? I would like to do what I can now with quarters being cut out rather than having to go back later and do it all over again.
Do you have any suggestions or recommendations as to what I should go after now (keeping in mind that I am probably not ever going to go full-blown pro-tour). I am mainly going after the look. Thanks again

[Jagarang]

I'd say that since your into the wheel houses allready you might as well install the DSE tubs and crossmember. If you can't find someone to notch the rails correctly, safely, and at a resonable price then just be happy with the tubs, crossmember,offset shackles, DSE shock mounts, and a narrowed tank. This will still get a bit costly, but if your able to do the work yourself(I couldn't :crying: ), you'll save a ton of $$$. DSE gets pricey, but the parts are all top notch quality and their customer service is some of the best I've ever had the pleasure of coming in contact with. I have a Competition Engineering set of offset shackles I never installed into my car, if they'll work for your car I'll let you steal them from me, if I can find them. I also had the Comp. Eng. shock mount crossmember but I had to chop it up to get it out of the car, so I could use the DSE pieces. A 315 tire will give you the look your wanting without doing frame mods, and save a bit of money. The gas tank is probably the costliest mod, excluding labor costs, if you have to buy one allready done from say Rock Vally or the likes. Be carefull though...these projects have a nasty habit of infecting the owner with MODIFICATIONITIS....a very very dangerous and INCURABLE DISEASE!

[ryans67deuce]

Not sure if it is different on the Camaro's than my Nova, but all I had done on mine was cut out the inner half of the existing tub, use a template of the base outline, cut it over as far as you can go to the frame rails, and use a 2-3" strip of sheetmetal to fill the gap. The trunk hinge mounting brackets had to be modified also, but no big deal really. This could save you $$$ on the cost of the DSE tubs, and the crossmember could probably be fabbed up with just regular tubing I would imagine.

Check around for drop leafs too, you may find them elsewhere also. The offset shackles can be found at CE or Jegs usually.

Ryan

[Jagarang]

Its the same with the Camaro and that saves even more money but more time spent in labor if your having to pay someone else to do the work

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Smitty, it would have been MUCH easier to mini-tub my car had the quarters been cut off, so I really want to say you should go ahead and mini-tub while you have the quarters off, but it all adds up quickly. Another thing you need to factor in is the cost of wheels. A 17x12 or 18x12 or similar is going to be very costly, depending on manufacturer / style and options. If you go here: http://www.infamouscamaro.com/Ralphs%2068.htm

You can see some pics of my mini-tub job. They're not very good pics though, and there's only a few there (I had a ton more but my camera was messed up at the time, and those were the only ones I could salvage, and they're not great either).

If I were you, I'd roll the fender lips, and run a 285 on a 17x10, with perfect backspacing to ensure no rubbing. An even safer bet would just be a 275 series tire on a 17x9.5, but if you really want to squeeze all the tire you can back there, you can fit a 285 with some good measuring. This way you won't have to narrow the gas tank, and spend money on the other costs associated with mini-tubbing. Good luck!

[smittys69]

What about the option of cutting the existing wheel wells and adding a section in there to widen up what I have? I don't remember for sure but I did not think I had alot of room to play with to move them in very much without getting into the rail. I assume they can be moved in flush with the frame rail? I have seen the tool from somewhere to roll the lip (attaches to the hub and you roll it around). I don't think that this is something a normal body shop would have would it? Are there other ways to roll the lip?
So if I understand, the most cost effective way to achieve a pseudo pro-tour look would be to roll the lip of the fender wells and I could probably get a 17x10 wheel with 285 tire but still might be pretty tight - right?
Also, with a 17" wheel combo I assume my lower shock mount will then be setting inside the wheel (it would almost have to). I assume I could still do all of is without messing with the springs or tank.
While we are on the subject, what would you recommend for the front with this rear set-up? About all I am going to do up front is rebuilt (new bushings, tie rods, ball joints, etc and I also want to go back to power front disc but they will probably be 11". Thanks for all your help guys - I really appreciate it.

P.S. Where do you recommend the best place to buy tires /wheels? I did purchase new torque thrusts from Wheelstalgia (I think) but I was just wanting to get it back on the road. These only have about 500 miles on them so I will be wanting to sell. They are 15" with 4.5 and 4.75 backsets.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Widening the tub as is is definitely an option. You could probably stuff a 315 back there, but I'm pretty sure you'd still need a set of offset shackles, and a narrowed gas tank. So you really wouldn't be saving too much money. I believe the tool you're talking about is manufactured (or sold) by Eastwood. There are other ways to roll the lip, I think there is a thread in either the suspension section, or paint and body as of the last few days talking about this very thing. I've heard of using a ratchet and different sized sockets, and also using a wooden baseball bat to roll the lip, as well as some other ways, but I'm not 100% certain on which method works best, as I haven't rolled my lips yet. I don't think a normal body shop would have a tool to roll the lips, but it's possible a custom or performance shop may. Correct on the 17x10 and 285, it will fit, but it's going to be tight, make sure you get the backspacing perfect. You should be able to do the 17x10 without touching anythign else but the lip. Are you running mulit-leafs or mono?

As for the front suspension, I'd recommend going with the Hotchkis TVS kit (front and rear). It will give you a nice set of drop leafs, good lowering springs, and front and rear sway bars (although most people leave the rear sway bar off as it tends to cause problems--oversteer I believe.)

As for buying wheels, it really depends on what manufacturer you want, sometimes the best route to go is direct from the manufacturer. Detroit Speed & Engineering is an excellent choice for Budnik or BonSpeed wheels.

[Nine Ball]

Welcome to the site!

I am running 17x10s in the rear of my '69 (5.5 BS) and 275/40/17 tires. Those fit without any modifications to the rear. It was a tight fit on a lowered suspension, but I never got any rubbing with that setup. You could have the fender lips rolled and clear a 285 tightly. But, keep in mind that when the car is lowered you really can't tell how wide the tires are (275 vs 285, etc..)

I wouldn't consider it "pseudo-protouring" because a car doesn't have minitubs. Most road racers use a 275 wide tire on a 9" wheel. Most of us like the wider wheels/tires just because you can go with a deeper dish wheel and look cool. Hell, some of the wheels our guys run in those wide widths are ultra heavy and would negate any performance gains from going wider anyways haha.

Anyways, here are some photos of my car, see if that look is good enough for you: www.ExtremeG.net

Tony

[smittys69]

WOW - if you get in the Xmas spirit and are looking for some year end tax write-off's, consider me "charity". The car looks awesome. I see that the wheels are "custom". I assume that by "custom" it is only the backset? If you don't mind me askin, what do you have in the tires and wheels? Also, looks like you didn't do alot to the rear end (i.e. tubs, suspension, etc). Did you roll the lips at all or did these fit fine?

[Nine Ball]

Intro Wheels only builds to order, so you have to call them and give them the dimensions you need. Takes them about 6-8 weeks to get the wheels to you. www.introwheels.com

A full set of 17s will cost around $1600 or so. 18s around $2100 I believe. Tire prices can be found on www.DiscountTireDirect.com - they are Nitto 555 radials up front and 555R2 in the rear.

I didn't have to roll the lips to fit my combo. Stock tubs, untouched frame rails. Nothing needed to be modified to make them fit. When I put the 28x10 drag slicks on the car I had to roll the rear lips though.

Tony