Manu-matic vs OD Manual

[Damn True]

The question concerns both auto's and manuals so I'll put it here rather than either specific forum.

I guess I'm mainly talking to Steve-O here, but anyone else that has some tech should feel free to chime in.

So two weeks ago I helped some friends of ours move some stuff up to and down from their cabin in Tahoe. I drove his M3 up and brought his Audi Allroad back. Anyway, while driving the M3 out I had to sit in hours and hours of traffic in San Jose, then Plesanton, then Tracy and finally in Sacramento. By the time I got to the Sierra's my left leg was pumped up like I had one limb on 'roids.

Thinking to myself, "Self, this BMW has a much lighter clutch than what I plan to put in the Camaro. I wonder if a manu-matic might be a better call." Being completely honest with myself here, the car is likely to see far more miles within the confines of Santa Clara county than it will at Laguna, Thunderhill or an auto-x.

So Steve-O, talk to me.

What is the give/take in regard to:

Weight
Daily driver performance
Track - Auto-x performance
Durability
Cost

Looking forward to hearing from you on this.

True

[Steve Chryssos]

Much has changed recently in terms of technology--actually it is changing as we speak. We are road testing converters each day.
Weight: I do not have any direct weight comparisons, but everyone agrees that there seems to be about a 50 lb penalty. Fortunately the weight is located at the bottom center of the car. We're only able to save weight in the converter which has a greater impact on parasitic loss than handling. We can save about 20%-30% of converter weight while making the part stronger and more efficient. With regards to the actual transmission itself, extra weight is directly proportional to strength and reliability. Heavier is stronger.
Daily Driver: I really DO drive my 68 daily. Auto or manual mode, the PCS controlled 4L60E is piano wire tight. That alone makes it fun to drive. Every shift seems to tug at the engine and push you forward. I rarely use manual mode for daily driving. The only exception is if I'm on the highway and I want to dispense with light traffic.
Durability: I sincerely believe that electronic fine tuning of the the transmission's calibration is soley responsible for my TCI tranny's longevity. You can imagine that I have positively crucified that poor little 4L60E with paddle shifter testing and and thousands of event miles. The 700R4--with it's motion ratio geometry TV cable--has given late model transmissions a bad rap. When I show you how easy it is to calibrate the TPS, you will understand the distinction. The TCU only asks for idle and WOT and then interpolates the rest. Night and day.
Cost: It can be done for $2300 using junkyard transmissions or the sky is the limit. I researched trans prices for another thread today. Average price is $3K-$3500K for most applications. I suspect that you can find good performance 4L65E's for $1800 with a converter, but do not get a street/strip converter. You need a converter that works at part throttle as well as full throttle.
Track: This is where the benchracing tends to gets heady. The manual trans will work better at road courses IF the driver has real skills, the manumatic will work just as well if not better in an autocross or drag race environment. Autocrossing employs fewer shifts and lower speeds where excessive engine braking will--I promise you--slow you down. Check out the video link below. That car is freed up. The paddle shifter helps you hold a gear. Automatic transmission are designed to upshift regardless of the circumstance. Wheelspin? The computer sees erroneously high wheel speed and upshifts. Lift off the throttle? The computer sees a reduction in load and upshifts. Don't think of the manumatic in the same light as a manual. They are different. They look, feel and sound different. If you think in terms of holding or choosing a gear when the computer becomes dumb, you will appreciate how the manumatic works. If you expect it to look, feel and sound like a mechatronic manual, you will be disappointed. Manumatics free you up to concentrate on the thing out there in front of your car known as the road. Gas...brake.....steer....tap... You will be fast. PM Jake Parrott over at Lat g or MuscleRides. He came down from Maine and drove all of the cars back to back-- one T56, one Richmond 6, and two manumatics. He is looking forward to one more drive with the new converters (which officially kick ass) Get his feedback.
/Steve

QJQwaMIjKSk

[Damn True]

Ok well let me know if I have this right. So if ham-fisted-harry (me) enters turn 1 a little hot and downshifts to 2nd when at that speed he (I) ought to be in 3rd the trans will upshift itself into the third and prevent him (me) from looping the thing into the tires?

How about heat? Have you seen any heat related problems with manu-matics used in open-track type environs?

[Steve Chryssos]

You ride motorycycles? Know what a false neutral feels like? If you downshift too far, that's what you get. Correct by tapping up. I just pulled my whle car apart including the transmission--which has been positively crucified due to paddle shifter development--and found ZERO out of the ordinary wear. It is a TCI Streetfighter transmission with your average 14"x4" cooler and braided steel -8 lines. 200 unit sold and no complaints of heat, but I don't think that anyone abuses their transmission as badly as I do--maybe the AirRide boys. Call Mark Bowler and ask him about wear on the AirRide transmissions. He builds all of them and includes his engine braking valve bodies. That is the most extreme scenario I can think of. http://www.bowlertransmission.com

[Steve Chryssos]

Of course, if you try that Ham Fisted Harry bit with a manual transmission, very bad things happen. So the manumatic's margin of safety might free you up to concentrate on steering, throttle and braking. I promise you--it's fast!! And that is what matters most in the end. You should expect to build in a little more rear brake bias with the manumatic.

[Damn True]

Interesting......hmmmmm. You make a good case. Gonna have to do some research on 4L60 and TCI prices.

Yeah, I ride motorcycles. In fact, the Ham-fisted-Harry was an award that used to be given in the club I raced in the early 90's. I earned more than my fair share. My most memorable was exactly the described scenario. Into T-1 at PIR, thought I'd clicked down one......it was two....goosed the gas, released the clutch, rear tire barked once then the bike disappeared. I was on my keister sliding along at about 120 knowing exactly what I'd just done and watching the bike disintigrate.

The award was a pair of boxing gloves with a fake dainese logo stitched on the back.