A clutch instead of a torque converter?

[quickcat]

Anyone ever try putting a clutch in front of an automatic transmission? Something like a 700R4 to be precise.

I have heard of kits for something like this on powerglides for circle track racing, but have never seen it.

Matt

[GetMore]

First, why would you want to?
I've heard of it, though not for a 700R4. Don't see any reason you couln't do it though.
I just can't think of any advantage in it.

[hotrdblder]

DIRECT DRIVE MAYBE!!!
ENGINE BRAKING!!
twist machine is designing a torque convertor that does these things, should be killer
www.twist.com

edit- thanks for keeping an eye on my spelling, now back to what the guy was asking

[matthimself456]

hotrdbldr, I am guessing you meant engine braking as engine breaking is something I can do all day long with a TC, clutch, or otherwise.

[quickcat]

First, why would you want to?

First of all I have plans for building a paddle shift system in my car and I have considered using am automatic transmission as a basis for it because its shifting process is already automated. Although I am concerned about the hydraulics.

Secondly, if I build an engine that requires a torque converter with a stall speed above the engine speed that I would normally cruise at (due to gearing, driving in town, etc.) it will waste a lot of energy and create excessive heat. The whole setup will be more efficient and versatile with direct coupling. High stall torque converters are fine for drag racing and ......well......going after groceries I guess.

In the end, I am not looking at using an automatic trans because I don't like shifting, I am looking for faster shifting that I can connect electrically. I plan on keeping full control of gear selection in my hands. This is an experiment and I am in the research stage.

Matt

[GetMore]

If you use a 700R4 you could set it up to lock the torque converter. I think it can be done in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear. I believe first is out.

I suggest you look into a 4L60E, 4L65E, or a 4L80E. They are electrically controlled, can be programmed to do what you want, and you can buy a paddle shifter assembly for them that will give you manual or automatic control.

[quickcat]

I suggest you look into a 4L60E, 4L65E, or a 4L80E

What is the cost and availability of one of these used? I am not too familiar with GM transmissions.

[rick g]

there used to be a clutch-turbo offered early-mid 80's based off of t400. never saw one or read to much about it, so may not have been cost effective to produce.

[zbugger]

First of all I have plans for building a paddle shift system in my car and I have considered using am automatic transmission as a basis for it because its shifting process is already automated. Although I am concerned about the hydraulics.

Secondly, if I build an engine that requires a torque converter with a stall speed above the engine speed that I would normally cruise at (due to gearing, driving in town, etc.) it will waste a lot of energy and create excessive heat. The whole setup will be more efficient and versatile with direct coupling. High stall torque converters are fine for drag racing and ......well......going after groceries I guess.

In the end, I am not looking at using an automatic trans because I don't like shifting, I am looking for faster shifting that I can connect electrically. I plan on keeping full control of gear selection in my hands. This is an experiment and I am in the research stage.

Matt

This brings us right back to Twist Machine. They are designing a torque converter for Pro-Touring applications, and should have it for sale soon. Their site is www.twistmachine.com if you want to see some of what they offer, but the good stuff isn't on the site yet. You'd be better off giving them a call. Seems to me that they are creating exactly what you want to do.

[hotrdblder]

This brings us right back to Twist Machine. They are designing a torque converter for Pro-Touring applications, and should have it for sale soon. Their site is www.twistmachine.com (http://www.twistmachine.com) if you want to see some of what they offer, but the good stuff isn't on the site yet. You'd be better off giving them a call. Seems to me that they are creating exactly what you want to do.
i thought i was going crazy, thats what i thought too....

[Steve Chryssos]

.....but the good stuff isn't on the site yet. You'd be better off giving them a call. Seems to me that they are creating exactly what you want to do.


The good stuff IS on the site and for sale. Click here.

http://www.twistmachine.com/products/index.html

What we did is not rocket science. MuscleDrive torque converters utilize a wide surface area, ceramic impregnated clutch and a billet front cover. You can lock it up by computer over a wider range of circumstances--not just low load highway driving. And stall speeds are tuned for overdrive "on-the-gas/off-the-gas" driving. Stall speed is only part of the equation, though. Turbine and impeller efficiency is increased over your typical street strip converter. So long before you get to the direct drive lock up phase, your converter is capable of 90% coupling efficiency.

The toque converter--and a paddle shifter are available now, no need for research.

[Bandit]

too bad the paddle-shift 4l80e setup is sooooo expensive...:)

[hotrdblder]

too bad the paddle-shift 4l80e setup is sooooo expensive...:)
no not really, find a good used 4l80 (can be had for 300-700) then buy the paddle shifter, computer and shift kit, mod a th400 crossmember yourself, order a muscle drive tq converter and your up and running for 3-3500,, basically what it costs to do a tko or t 56, 4l80e is a th400 with overdrive so with stock parts they are good to 600hp
steve i am sure can break it down

[Bandit]

no not really, find a good used 4l80 (can be had for 300-700) then buy the paddle shifter, computer and shift kit, mod a th400 crossmember yourself, order a muscle drive tq converter and your up and running for 3-3500,, basically what it costs to do a tko or t 56, 4l80e is a th400 with overdrive so with stock parts they are good to 600hp
steve i am sure can break it down
I was waiting for this post...a good used tranny is the key...personally I won't buy a used auto any more. Too many problems.
You could say the same about a manual swap, if you could find a GOOD used onel for $500 then I reckon you could do the whole manual swap for around $1000 which is still alot cheaper than the paddle-shifted 4l80e setup.
But the new professionally built 4l80e's alone cost $1,000's, add to that an EXPENSIVE lock-up converter (to do it right), a $1,000 computer, and the paddle shifter and your running upwards of $5k.
Don't get me wrong, I want one in my next project (a sleeper), but dang it's pricey. :eek:

[Steve Chryssos]

$3800. That's with a 12 month warranty on the trans from Monster. $1882 trans & converter + $850 core charge +$1149 paddle shifter/computer.
http://racetransmissions.com/store/product_info.php/cPath/1_25_416/products_id/735

- Or you can get a trans and converter from PATC for $2049 rated up to 700HP. So $2049 plus $1149 (shifter and computer). That's $3199 total with paddle shifter/computer.
http://www.the-transmission-center.com/

- Or you can dig a 4L80E out of the dirt as we have done for out current build. A big block with 650HP. The core was $350 plus $700 for the converter plus $1149 for paddle shifter and computer. That's $2199.

- Or if you insist on brand new, GM Performance Parts sells a brand new 4L85E for $2276.46 plus $1149 paddle shifter/computer.
http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/results.cfm?singlepart=1&partnumber=19156257

- Or you can spend $12,000 on a paddle shifted 4L80E/Gear Vendors 6/8 speed that will handle 1000 HP-plus and take you to the moon and back. Shift and gear split from the paddle shifter. No warranty.

[hotrdblder]

I was waiting for this post...a good used tranny is the key...personally I won't buy a used auto any more. Too many problems.
You could say the same about a manual swap, if you could find a GOOD used onel for $500 then I reckon you could do the whole manual swap for around $1000 which is still alot cheaper than the paddle-shifted 4l80e setup.
But the new professionally built 4l80e's alone cost $1,000's, add to that an EXPENSIVE lock-up converter (to do it right), a $1,000 computer, and the paddle shifter and your running upwards of $5k.
Don't get me wrong, I want one in my next project (a sleeper), but dang it's pricey. :eek:
you cannot compare a used 4l80e with a used 700r4, i doubt you have had any bad experiences with used 4l80e's. on top of that almost any salvage yard worth its salt offers 90 day to 6 month warrantys, if your scared of that i am not sure what else to say, i for sure would not buy one from a person to person sale unless i knew the other person, however a good salvage yard does not scare me one bit.
and oh ya you cannot do a 5 spd or 6 spd for 1k, a used ls1 t-56 is 1000-1500 then buy tylers kit and hydraulics, clutch etc, you do the math, i bought a used ls1 t-56 for 1300, then with clutch hydraulics etc i got 2800 in it, which i could easily do a 4l80e for, so money is really not a reason not to do a paddle shifted pro touring car..... goodluck though

[quickcat]

I will have the added cost of a Chevy trans to Ford engine adapter kit too.

You all have given me some great information. I need to read more about that twist machine torque converter. I am still not sure that is what I am after. A variable stall converter would be real cool. I appreciate the help.

Matt

[Steve Chryssos]

Every company makes controllers for ford transmissions. ....and the Ford transmissions work great! Try an AODE or 4R70W. Variable blade converters are clunky and unreliable. We just work to tweak the stall four phases of converter efficiency to best match your application. (stall, acceleration, coupling and lock up.)

Thank you for your interest, Matt.

[Skip Fix]

Clutch-flites were used in early 70s funny cars and gasser before there was good race comvertors out there or Lencos. Clutch was used to launch then faster clutchless shifts than a stick. B&M and others pioneered them. Even the nostalgia guys have a hard time finding part for them now.

My old college roommate had his grandfather's old Hemi Desoto with some kind of clutched auto also.

[quickcat]

Clutch-flites were used in early 70s funny cars and gasser before there was good race comvertors out there or Lencos. Clutch was used to launch then faster clutchless shifts than a stick. B&M and others pioneered them. Even the nostalgia guys have a hard time finding part for them now.

This is exactly what I had in mind. I saw something along these lines in a book when I was in high school and really have been wondering if there was something more up to date available.


Every company makes controllers for ford transmissions. ....and the Ford transmissions work great! Try an AODE or 4R70W.

Steve,
I thought overdrive was the only gear selection that could be controlled electrically on these transmissions. I might give you guys a call this week to talk some ideas over. Can I contact you at Twist Machine?

[Steve Chryssos]

.....Steve,
I thought overdrive was the only gear selection that could be controlled electrically on these transmissions. I might give you guys a call this week to talk some ideas over. Can I contact you at Twist Machine?

Sure call me during the week. You might be co-mingling a couple of concepts here:
1) Line pressure solenoids and shift solenoids are controlled electronically.
2) Ford and Mopar electronic automatics utilize electric overdrive where as the GM four speed stuff is mechanical.

[406 Q-ship]

B&M did the clutch-flight (727) and a Turbo-clutch (TH400) in the 60's, but according to B&M they tossed the stuff out years ago. No one has ever done it to a overdrive auto. There is a prostreet ElCamino around here that had a Turbo-clutch and man did it shift violent, to violent for a car to corner with.

[quickcat]

B&M did the clutch-flight (727) and a Turbo-clutch (TH400) in the 60's, but according to B&M they tossed the stuff out years ago. No one has ever done it to a overdrive auto. There is a prostreet ElCamino around here that had a Turbo-clutch and man did it shift violent, to violent for a car to corner with.

Thank you....that is just the thing I was thinking about. I saw something like that in a book when I was in highschool and was really wondering if there had been any updates to that type of thing over the years. I guess it is not such a hot idea.

[rick g]

would that be a black camino that was in several of th chevy/gm magazines 15-20 years ago?

[quickcat]

would that be a black camino that was in several of th chevy/gm magazines 15-20 years ago?

Naw...I was reading some book that Hot Rod magazine put out in the 70's (I think). If it was in a Chevy mag I wouldn't have seen it. I have been a Ford guy forever and have never had a Chevy until I got my Vette last year.