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View Full Version : Front Clip Question: Need Your Help



Young Gun
05-28-2007, 08:40 AM
So I'm building a pro touring 1970 nova, my front clip appears as though it was nocked and its hosed.... with that said I need to purchase a new front clip soon and I come to yall for answers. Im not sure which clip to go with, I have seen multiple clips available and I dont know what to do, If anybody could help steer me in the right direction I would really appreciate it, I would like to know what makes one clip better than another and anything of this sort. The clips I have found are the Art Morrison, DSE, Martz, and Chris Alston front clips, if there are other/ better clips out there please let me know... I really appreciate it guys!

hotrdblder
05-28-2007, 09:54 AM
the dse and ame are the best , the others are to be questioned and i would go with a modded stock frame before alston or any others, other then dse/ame frame, 21st is nice too

streetk14
05-28-2007, 10:25 AM
the dse and ame are the best , the others are to be questioned and i would go with a modded stock frame before alston or any others, other then dse/ame frame, 21st is nice too


I agree, AME, DSE or 21st century are the only ones I would consider for my cars.

I have a Wayne Due C5 subframe in my '67, but he has closed up shop and is no longer making frames. Art Morrison has pretty much taken over production of Wayne's stuff, but his team of engineers have worked out the kinks he had in the design from what I understand.

Good luck, and I don't think you can go wrong with any of the 3 companies listed above.

Andy

Young Gun
05-28-2007, 01:24 PM
can somebody post the site for 21st century? and out of curiousity why wouldnt you consider the others? are there known problems?

eville
05-28-2007, 01:49 PM
can somebody post the site for 21st century?
http://www.21stcenturystreetmachines.com/
google is my friend.

Young Gun
05-28-2007, 02:12 PM
i could not find it on google...but thanks loads

hotrdblder
05-28-2007, 02:44 PM
Most Of Them Are Street Rod Style Clips Used To Go On And Off A Trailer, Using Mustang Ii Uca,lca's, Which Are Good For A Street Rod And Junk For A Serious Driver

OneslowZ28
05-31-2007, 09:41 AM
Depending on your budget a modded stock sub may be a good idea. There have been huge advancements lately. Check out Global West to get an idea.

novanutcase
05-31-2007, 09:51 AM
Depending on your budget a modded stock sub may be a good idea. There have been huge advancements lately. Check out Global West to get an idea.

Problem is his OEM front clip is wasted so he HAS to replace it!

John

6'9"Witha69
05-31-2007, 11:29 AM
Get a sub from any 67-69 Camaro or 68-74 Nova and go from there. Stock clips are way underrated and the support in the aftermarket is there to really make them work great.

MonzaRacer
05-31-2007, 06:49 PM
Go for the Martz, awesome looking stuff I got to see one the other day very sweet piece.

TBART70
06-01-2007, 06:35 AM
do a lot of research before you buy, ask a lot of questions, get all ther numbers. Ask the people in the know what numbers to look for, and what qualities make a good chassis.

jmartz
06-01-2007, 09:24 AM
Thank you MonzaRacer. We have had thousands of satisfied customers. Again, you can check our our customer page for some positive feedback, and I do believe Richard Kirkendall (you can see his car featured in the magazine links on our website) is also a member of this forum, he has had excellent feedback on our Camaro subframe.

Year One has been using our frames on quite a few of their projects with excellent results. They used our front suspension system on Paul Walker's LS1 67 Nova and we have had rave reviews from it. It was featured in Chevy Rumble's November 2004 issue.

Our subframes are not Mustang II but are of our own design crafted by Gary through his years of racing and street rodding.

Though Gary is now retired, my brother, Andy, and I are now continuing the family business.

Jayco_Automotive
06-01-2007, 09:54 AM
It isn't a mustang II suspension, it is a true Martz Design took him a while to figure out that lil bit of info also. Check out their web at www.martzchassis.com (http://www.martzchassis.com) to see some of the reviews and rides they have built.

Benefits:

GM Disc Brakes
Tubular Control Arms with Urethane Bushings
Eccentric Bolts for Quick Caster and Camber Adjustments
Standard or Drop Height Spindles
Adjustable Height: Standard height to 3” lower
4 ½ or 4 ¾ Bolt Pattern
Front Mounted Rack & Pinion Steering: Power or Manual
Core Support mounts & bumper mounts Installed
Mounts installed in frame to accept short GM engine mounts
Mount installed for use of stock rear crossmember (crossmember not supplied)
Reduces Front Weight by Nearly 200 Lb.
Air Ride Airbags also available

jmartz
06-01-2007, 11:22 AM
Yes, we use a professional front suspension geometry software system for our front suspensions.

TBART70
06-01-2007, 12:33 PM
jmartz I'm in no way direspecting you or your family, I was not happy and asked for help making a change. I did not call up and make claims I knew more than your shop, nor did I call up and complain to you about it.
My problem is I don't like when someone with limited knowlegde comes on here and bashes my ability, of course I'm not talking about you personally.

Piet
06-01-2007, 01:02 PM
Back to the original question PLEASE.

I think you have some real good options here.
Get the documentation on AME, DSE, 21st century, and Martz. Figure out which one is best for you. Each will have thier own strengths and weaknesses.

Now that you have some good options... it's researching time.

jmartz
06-05-2007, 06:31 AM
Piet you are correct. It would be an awfully boring world if there were no choices. Every car owner has their own ideas and desires as to how they want their car to handle, and I'll not claim that we have the "perfect" suspension system for every buyer. That would just be ridiculous. That is like saying one brand of sneakers should fit every foot (I'm a girl, gimme a break on the analogy, ok?) Anyhow, do your research. See which one is right for you.

If you have any questions, email me and I'll answer what I can about our products, as will the other companies. And even though I AM a girl, I do profess to know more than the average female, as my Dad founded Martz Chassis a year before I was born and I grew up in it. I can handle any pricing questions and SOME tech, and what I don't know I try my hardest to find out.

That said, as Piet stated,
Now that you have some good options... it's researching time.

Young Gun
06-06-2007, 08:32 PM
I completely agree with all of yall about needing to do the resesearch, and I have, but I dont really understand what makes one of these chassis better than another, so with that said, I am asking for your help and I guess somewhat for your imput on what I should choose.

Piet
06-07-2007, 12:08 PM
I looked at your progress thread... nice plans.

I would need two questions answered.

1) Realistically, what are you going to do with the car?

A) Cruiser
B) Cruiser with the possibility of the occasional event
C) Hard Core Auto Cross - Lateral G racer
2) Realistically, what is your budget?

A) Under $2,000
B) $2,000 to $4,000
C) $4,000 to $6,000
D) for everything else... there's VISA

Young Gun
06-07-2007, 12:20 PM
the car is going to be something i can cruse around it but i want it to handle pretty well too, i would prefer not to have to spend any more than necessary in order to make it handle well, so i guess if i had to choose a number it would be someplace between 4 and 6gs

6'9"Witha69
06-07-2007, 12:58 PM
Replacement factory frame $500.00
Smoothing and Podercoating $500.00
Tubular uppers and lowers $1,142.98
Good Front Springs $169.95
Good Shocks (2) Bilsteins $195.90
Brakes (Kore3) $900.00
Front Sway Bar $215.95
ATS 670 Gear Box $515.00
GMod Free
TOTAL $4,139.78


And this will handle as well or better than just about every aftermarket clip setup out there. There are variations in component selection to increase or decrease cost, but this is a very cost effective solution. For a street car it is overkill and I doubt on a track you will be able to utilize it to it's fullest without considerable experience. I think most of the front clip is for a packaged solution/clean look. For a budget and performance, you still can't beat the possibilities offered by the stock steel and the aftermarket support.

hotrdblder
06-07-2007, 01:07 PM
there is no way a stock sub with dse coil over or ats coil conversion will outhandle an aftermarket front clip, it may out handle what most of us throw at it but without going to coil overs, it will be limited, and if you cannot do it yourself it will cost damn near the same price as a aftermarket clip

TitoJones
08-23-2007, 03:33 PM
there is no way a stock sub with dse coil over or ats coil conversion will outhandle an aftermarket front clip, it may out handle what most of us throw at it but without going to coil overs, it will be limited, and if you cannot do it yourself it will cost damn near the same price as a aftermarket clip


I missed this somehow.

Why is not possible for a stock frame to out handle an aftermarket one?

Did you ever look at the actual geometry figures posted by DSE with their $7K frame? Last I check our AFX spindles had more camber gain per inch of suspension travel than they did, less overall bumpsteer than they did, and more caster. I can get it done for about $700.

I really want to go head to head with a DSE frame vs our Chicane-LM frame and put this one to rest once and for all. On paper we have already out done it.

Tyler

josh@scotts
08-23-2007, 04:34 PM
give us a call at scotts i know we can accomodate you 805-485-0382, and compare are quality with other after market front ends, for the money you cant buy a better front end hands down!!

hotrdblder
08-23-2007, 04:39 PM
I missed this somehow.

Why is not possible for a stock frame to out handle an aftermarket one?

Did you ever look at the actual geometry figures posted by DSE with their $7K frame? Last I check our AFX spindles had more camber gain per inch of suspension travel than they did, less overall bumpsteer than they did, and more caster. I can get it done for about $700.

I really want to go head to head with a DSE frame vs our Chicane-LM frame and put this one to rest once and for all. On paper we have already out done it.

Tyler
DO IT!!!
maybe i should not say out handle, i should say the clip cars have a way better feel to them when driving hard on the street, way more comfortable driving hard, to a pro driver you may be right the stock clip will be as fast or faster but for the average joe if you blind folded him and let him drive both cars hes gonna pick the clip car everytime.

novanutcase
08-23-2007, 11:53 PM
Replacement factory frame $500.00
Smoothing and Podercoating $500.00
Tubular uppers and lowers $1,142.98
Good Front Springs $169.95
Good Shocks (2) Bilsteins $195.90
Brakes (Kore3) $900.00
Front Sway Bar $215.95
ATS 670 Gear Box $515.00
GMod Free
TOTAL $4,139.78


And this will handle as well or better than just about every aftermarket clip setup out there. There are variations in component selection to increase or decrease cost, but this is a very cost effective solution. For a street car it is overkill and I doubt on a track you will be able to utilize it to it's fullest without considerable experience. I think most of the front clip is for a packaged solution/clean look. For a budget and performance, you still can't beat the possibilities offered by the stock steel and the aftermarket support.

I would go this route if I was in your shoes!!!!

John

TitoJones
08-24-2007, 11:56 AM
give us a call at scotts i know we can accomodate you 805-485-0382, and compare are quality with other after market front ends, for the money you cant buy a better front end hands down!!

We are trying to get a comparison going with your front end. Bring the tech and loose the marketing vomit.

What makes your frame better than others in your same field? I would lump your frame in with Chris Alston Chassisworks, Heidts, Fatman, and Total Cost Involved. These companies are chrome plating, street rod manufacturers trying to cash in on the Pro-Touring hype and style, but don't really bring the hard data to back up their claims.
Be like AME, DSE, and SC&C and bring in some tech to this discussion.

Tyler

Mr.VENGEANCE
08-24-2007, 12:17 PM
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

6'9"Witha69
08-24-2007, 04:07 PM
DO IT!!!
maybe i should not say out handle, i should say the clip cars have a way better feel to them when driving hard on the street, way more comfortable driving hard, to a pro driver you may be right the stock clip will be as fast or faster but for the average joe if you blind folded him and let him drive both cars hes gonna pick the clip car everytime.Maybe I've driven mine too long, but I would pick the factory car every time!

BTW, I don't think comparison driving should be a blind folded contest.:poke:

hotrdblder
08-24-2007, 04:35 PM
lol, have you driven a dse or 21st century car? i have driven a dse speed 3 equipped 1st gen, then directly after drove a 21st century equiped car, i am no race car driver, however i would pick the clipped car everytime, felt way more comfortable driving the clipped car harder, it felt like it wanted more, meaning it was easier to push harder, i am sure the camber gain, bumpsteer etc is similer to a well built stock sub, however it did not feel that way driving aggressive.

Steve Chryssos
08-26-2007, 03:56 AM
Current "on paper" geometry comparisons ignore important aspects such as front steer vs. rear steer as well as torsional rigidity of stock stamp & weld 40 year old frame rails vs DOM tubular frame rails.

Assuming that both designs offer equal grip, a GOOD aftermarket clip still wins because it is easier to drive hard. By eliminating the pitman arm, the idler arm, the center link, and pointing the steering arms forward, the GOOD aftermarket clips practically drive themselves. "On Paper" bump steer, camber gain and caster comparisons fail to tell the "Front Steer" story. Also, I hate driving my car on paper because they don't make large enough sheets. And paper can be very slippery which is dangerous. There are very good reasons why almost all modern cars are front steer. It's okay to admit that GOOD aftermarket clips have their place, because there is still one hugely important difference:

Given that both designs work extremely well--and they do, the difference comes down to money. You can build up an excellent handling stock clip in stages, while the aftermarket clips require an up front, lump sum expenditure. If you can afford the one time, lump sum tin for a GOOD aftermarket clip, do it. You won't be disappointed. Also, if you will be paying labor to cut & weld an OE clip for coil over conversion, GOOD aftermarket clip can quickly become less expensive.

If, on the other hand, you can only afford to buy bits and pieces in stages and will be doing the work yourself, then upgrade a stock clip. They haul ass and cost less substantially less--especially if you avoid coil over conversion. Start with ATS spindles. They are the single most important upgrade to a factory clip. And they are the single most developed part available for factory clips. I'll take coil springs over coil overs any day of the the week.

Given your requirements, your options are wide open. It boils down to whether you have $4-$6K today or in stages. Just don't let anyone tell you that GOOD aftermarket clips are a waste.


the car is going to be something i can cruse around it but i want it to handle pretty well too, i would prefer not to have to spend any more than necessary in order to make it handle well, so i guess if i had to choose a number it would be someplace between 4 and 6gs

joeelutz
10-09-2007, 06:32 PM
Hello...New to board, but I have to mention that I just bought a 67 Camaro with a Martz subframe iwith the rally/road race package and LOVE IT. The handling far surpassed my expectations. The design and workmanship are also very nice.

jeremy30thz
10-11-2007, 08:25 PM
I have the new one from TCI on my 69 Camaro and like it lots

Mr.VENGEANCE
10-11-2007, 08:52 PM
I have the AME frame and its so next level..