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jr2
12-10-2004, 03:18 PM
Chevy Rumble - C5 Article (http://www.chevyrumble.com/TechPage.asp?ID=13) I don't know if this is where this belongs but it seemd like it.

Does anyone have any opinions on the article CR did on the 21st Century Street Machines C5 front clip? :dunno:

cpederslie
12-10-2004, 03:25 PM
You know my opinion... :barf:

MrQuick
12-10-2004, 05:16 PM
hi guys, looks like a nice set up. That new company to me so I haven't heard anything.
Wayne Due (http://www.waynedue.com) has been doing that for as few years now.You guys are in Washington have you seen his work?

brrymnvette
12-13-2004, 05:32 AM
never mind

Payton King
12-13-2004, 07:24 AM
This shop is about 5 minutes from my office. As seen in another post...I am getting one of these frames this week. I can tell you I spent a lot of time at the shop asking questions and looking at the design before I made my decision. I could not tell by the above post whether you did not like the article or the product. If you do not like the product...from what are you forming your opinion?

Payton

cpederslie
12-13-2004, 01:14 PM
Payton,
Let me first pre-face with "opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one!"

IMHO - I don't like the looks of the product and I didn't care for the write-up. Now, let me preface my opinion with I haven't seen their product in person and I hope that it is better looking in person than it is in the pictures. But from the pictures, I don't care for the way the subframe is constructed, the Motor mount setup would scare me with any sort of HP between the rails and just the overall design isn't appealing TO ME! The Welds looked clumpy and like they needed to be ground down, Lower control arm mounting looked out of place, etc.

That covers the clip, now the article. I quit reading after the author gave credit to them as being the innovators of C5 suspension in a direct replacement front clip for the first gen camaro. C4 front clips have been around for some years and as soon as C5 was available so were the front clips.

But, as I say that's one man's opinion. Obviously if you have spent some time looking and spent some time at the shop looking at their fabrication skills and construction and like what you see then go with it. I have spent time at a similar shop and would select their product hands down over anyone elses regardless of price! Why? Because, construction is clean mandrel bent tubing and welds that look like they were done by machine, nothing you want to grind down or cover up.

boodlefoof
12-13-2004, 02:52 PM
how can you see anything in those pics they're so small? Is there some way to enlarge them? I have tried but they get very pixelated...

jr2
12-13-2004, 04:35 PM
You have to see the pics in the Chevy Rumble article. The site leaves quite a bit to the imagination.

Edward Bednar
12-14-2004, 04:42 PM
We are relatively new to the scene in this particular part of the hot rod business but have been around for over 30 years in Nascar. The engineer and fabricator of this particular subframe has built cars for Dale Earnhardt ,not junior,Joe Ruttman, Tim Richmond, including the car that got Tim his first road course win, Cal Yarborough,Neil Bonnett,Ken Schrader, and Ricky Rudd. If you need references call Rick Hendrick cause thats where he last worked in R&D.We're also where Henrick sends some of his hot rod fabrication. If you want drag race references we got em up to 1800hp and we're certain that the motor mounts on this car will hold up to 1000hp based on experience. Any more than that and we can set you up right still.We are building hi performance products here and I know that photos don't allow you to see much in the way of detail but the welds laid down are as pretty a bead as you'll see and will pass inspection on any track. Let me know your e-mail address and I'll send you some examples in even more difficult materials. They don't allow you to grind a weld down when you're building 200mph vehicles. That's the best way to hide a poor weld. We do do show versions of the frame all that is time and labor.We are trying to produce real performance at a reasonable price.As far as mandrel bent rails we use them in our rear mini tub kit where critical tolerances are not as necessary and can be made up. A mandrel bent rail suffers from unpredictability of compression and stretch and affects its strength, its tolerances and its harmonics.This is why hydroforming was developed by my father's R&D team when he worked at GM. I got that lecture at the dinner table 20 years ago.We can't fit the economics of a high production run into this model so we build our frame on a jig with precisely mitered pieces and specific fabrication and welding sequences so when that frame is pulled off that jig it doesn't vary by more than thousandths. This produces a frame that runs true, straight, predictably and at 200mph. We don't have editorial rights and so sometimes things may be misinterpeted and mistated in an artcle so please at times read on.The web site is still under construction and will be so probably indefinitely.So bear with us these are not small undertakings.

dennis68
12-14-2004, 05:18 PM
Where is the "snap" smiley when you need it.

kracker
12-14-2004, 06:34 PM
Have ever seen a Due frame? thats fab and nice welds. And who ever told you boys about mandrel bending needs to look at a AM frame the rails are nuts on every time!

68fusion
12-14-2004, 07:01 PM
Have a WD clip in front of me and a mag article of 21cent ...
To me it's the difference between neat and trick vs quick and dirty...
Since I live in NC(nascar land) ive seen these type subs or clips on late model stock cars... work fine very precise but not much to look at

Just a little too "boxy" for my taste...

As for the welds on WD stuff....SHEEZ ITS PURDY...

dennis68
12-14-2004, 07:33 PM
Just a quick point, I don't do business with either company so I have nothing to add about either except that when it comes to welds.......pretty does not automatically equal strong. I would much rather have full penetration triple pass root welds than single pass pretty top welds anyday.

MrQuick
12-14-2004, 09:11 PM
Hey Den wheres that "leg humpers" smiley when you need it? :hand:
I've seen a Wayne Due frame in person,very impressive. The 21 Century frame I would like to see, yes I haven't SO NO NEGATIVE CRITISISM HERE. From the article it looks like some problems were addressed, no engine set back necassary...nice. one note, a nice single pass is alot better than a hide all triple pass...pretty is nice cause it shows the pride put into the work.
thanks for chimimg in Ed,maybe you can post some pictures for the natives.

jonny51
12-14-2004, 09:44 PM
http://www.lateral-g.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=199&highlight=21st+century

yody
12-14-2004, 10:30 PM
Yeah I like pretty welds too, not welds that have been covered up 3 times!!, also i would have to inspect hte three welds to see if it looked like they had done the correct process. WHo cares if your frame falls in half, as long as the welds are pretty I'm happy, its not like I am actually going to drive the car! But really I think it is good that other companies are coming out and doing different things, gives you a good selection to choose from. Maybe someone can test out the 21century frame?

Payton King
12-15-2004, 05:01 AM
Obviously Ed beat me to the answers to a few of your question which is good seeing that it is his product. The suprising thing about reading all of the above post is that some people are stating opinions and preferences like they are facts and have never seen the product...besides a few pictures? I have been on this site since I started my car project over 3 years ago and have found everyone to be helpful and postive, but I am actually quite shocked of some of your reactions to a new product coming on the market. Most would be excited that someone is trying to further the pro-touring movement and come up with a quality product. I am guessing that not one person in the above post even own an aftermarket subframe nor do they have any experience in what they drive like or what is involved to get the suspension dynamics correct. "I have looked at one and they are dead on" that may be a misquote, but was that based on an observation or did you actually measure the frame and check the tolerances? What is your experience in the area of mandrel bent metal to refute Ed's claim? As far as the appearence, just how much do you see of a stock frame when the car is together? To me the thing that is missing for all of the pro-touring products is no hard data in which to form an opinion. I have never seen a before and after or even and after test...besides the Art Morrision 55, on any of the stuff. Global West, Wayne Due , Martz, etc. Driving impressions yes, no lap times, skid pad or slalom figures. Is one product better than the other? maybe, maybe not. It depends on what you are going for. If you want a show car you will be drawn to one product and if you want performance you will be drawn to another or maybe you are somewhere in between. I know Ed is in the process of getting some hard data on his system. I can promise that as soon as my car is together we will run a battery of test and I will post the results here for everyone to see...good or bad. If you want to see my car upclose, look for me on the power tour. I will be joining in Nashville. It will be the yellow 69 with the C6 wheel and tire package.

Salt Racer
12-15-2004, 06:55 AM
...We don't have editorial rights and so sometimes things may be misinterpeted and mistated in an artcle...

That happens to me all the time whenever we do some tech article for rags. We now ask editors to send us their drafts before they go into press so we can proof read. That's something you can do if they ask you guys to do tech articles in the future.


Back to the original topic, I'll keep it short & simple.

Good craftsmanship/fab skill doesn't necessarily mean good engineering. Frankly, I really don't give a fock if the rails are mandrel bent or welded together, as long as weld is structurally sound and the frame is well engineered (light and rigid).

As far as suspension goes, from what I've seen and what I read, I'd say guys at 21st know what they're doing. Just as the frame itself, fancy parts don't necessarily guarantee good suspension kinematics. It's all in where pivot points are located, but I'd say they got their ***** together. About the only thing I'd change is outer tie rod, since all of those FVSA, SVSA, IC adjustments will require tie rod adjustments at the same time.

Edward Bednar
12-15-2004, 07:48 AM
I want to make sure that everyone in the forum realizes I have not been critical of anyone else product,car, project, approach, or their welds.It's not my style. I simply wanted to to clear up some misconceptions the article seems to have created on our product.There are many different ways to skin a cat. I offer explanations so you will understand our philosophy and why we approach things the way we do. This doesn't make it right, it doesn't make someone else wrong, just different. Your right Salt Racer there are different steering arms for the different adjustments that can be made on the frame. we got it covered. We'll see you on the track. Payton is also correct in that we will do real world data acquisition on all the different renditions of this car and the others we plan to proceed with in the future.I will also let you guys know that there were a number of nights when I cruised Woodward, since it is where I grew up, in the height of muscle car era where I was looking at the tail lights of a car I thought was being driven to the salvage yard. Appearances can be deceiving. Thanks for all your interest. Ed

jr2
12-15-2004, 10:21 AM
My original post was for reference. Yes it was a loaded question. I have purchased a Wayne Due C-5 chassis based upon major research. I purchased this many months ago but the funny thing was that while I was up at Dues Chassis shop there was another C-5 clip ready to be shipped out. I say funny because the address was 21st Century Street Machines. Never heard of them before but I thought nothing of it at the time except that someone else was going to be as lucky as I. Now that I have read the article in Chevy Rumble and received many comments here in the PT Forums I am very interested in the fact that the C-5 clip I saw at Dues was shipped to 21st Century? Now dont take that totally wrong. Its not a WD clip in the article but it does tickle the thought process??

I love my WD clip! The quality is second to none as far as I am concerned. I've grown up around custom fabrication, Hot Rods and everything in between in the family and I know what excellent craftsmanship is. I made the right choice. :icon996:

C-5 Clip # 1 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v610/31chevy/Wayne%20Due/Photo0083.jpg)
C-5 Clip # 2 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v610/31chevy/Wayne%20Due/Photo0084.jpg)
C-5 Clip # 3 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v610/31chevy/Wayne%20Due/Photo0085.jpg)
C-5 Clip # 4 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v610/31chevy/Wayne%20Due/Photo0086.jpg)
C-5 Clip # 5 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v610/31chevy/Wayne%20Due/Photo0087.jpg)
C-5 Clip # 6 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v610/31chevy/Wayne%20Due/Photo0088.jpg)

Pictures speak for themselves.

As far as competition.
"Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery"

IMO. And I'm entitled to it.

cpederslie
12-15-2004, 11:35 AM
I'm right there with ya JR! My order is already in with Wayne for my clip!

Cdog
12-15-2004, 12:13 PM
Not to get political here but competition will benifit us all as consumers of these items and make the industry more inovative. Brand loyality is cool but blind loyality is just stupid.

kracker
12-15-2004, 03:02 PM
Competition is fine but buying someones hard work, sweat long hours ect. then knocking one off and saying your the MAN cuz you live in NASCAR land? sad! if what John says is true ( and I'm not says it is ) and your the suspension man why buy? just build! I think this is a small biz with mostly good people, I dont see Wayne building DSE arms and I'm sure he could. Tyler got Marks OK to build SED spindles. But he didnt have to! It was just the right thing to do thats all. Theres still so much stuff we need for this great new style car we call Pro-touring, work your own long hours and be proud to say I did that! and if you can build it go for it, and sell it go for that to. How would you feel then if you saw it in a mag and the dudes are saying they did it first. I guesse it just competition right? What Ever

Cdog
12-15-2004, 03:33 PM
Competition is fine but buying someones hard work, sweat long hours ect. then knocking one off and saying your the MAN cuz you live in NASCAR land? sad! if what John says is true ( and I'm not says it is ) and your the suspension man why buy? just build! I think this is a small biz with mostly good people, I dont see Wayne building DSE arms and I'm sure he could. Tyler got Marks OK to build SED spindles. But he didnt have to! It was just the right thing to do thats all. Theres still so much stuff we need for this great new style car we call Pro-touring, work your own long hours and be proud to say I did that! and if you can build it go for it, and sell it go for that to. How would you feel then if you saw it in a mag and the dudes are saying they did it first. I guesse it just competition right? What Ever


There's probably quite a lot of assumptions going on here. I had my old Schiada V-Drive boat in Hotboat Mag. and boy can they F-up a story about a boat. Not to mention my wife used to work for Primedia Publishing and most of the people who write those articles don't know any thing about what they're writing about. In fact most of them are under paid college grads or temps. Wayne Due is a great guy, i've picked his brain numerious times and he is a rare bird in the auto bizz.

Edward Bednar
12-15-2004, 04:19 PM
I didn't want to get into this but since the subject has been broached here's the answer.We did order a WD chassis to install in a car but there were unfortunately problems with the frame.This was over a year and a half ago, maybe two.We weren't looking to reinvent the wheel Wayne had a the reputation of producing a good product.This was not our experience however.It was warped enough that we had trouble getting it to bolt up. When we did get it bolted up we couldn't make up a difference of about a half inch on the passenger side wheelbase. The motor mounts weren't centered. We also felt that the rack was too far forward and presented too much Ackerman. The tie rods wouln't clear the inner wheel rims. So into the dumpster it went. We couldn't knock it off, whatever version he sent wouldn't work. Now we didn't invent suspension geometry, nor did Wayne, but we did have some experience and felt that we could do it better ourselves. So we pulled out General Motors spec sheets on their original 1st Gen frame. (I hope this isn't a sacrilage) grabbed the C5 suspension spec'd it up, thought long and hard about what we wanted to accomplish,plugged it into the computer (yes anyone can buy these software packages you don't even have to really know the math but it helps), spec'd out the geometry and then went to thrashing it out on the jig. After three prototypes we have something we feel comfortable with and will continue to develop.It has adjustability of caster, camber and instsant center, nothing knew, things which have been used in a number of Nascar classes for years. Now I think Payton presented that we are going to provide real world data on this chassis system. I haven't seen any for a WD chassis. So bolt yours up and bring it on. We'll meet you at the track where we're used to settling things.God this is fun.Ed

Edward Bednar
12-15-2004, 04:29 PM
I didn't want to get into this but since the subject has been broached here's the answer.We did order a WD chassis to install in a car but there were unfortunately problems with the frame.This was over a year and a half ago, maybe two.We weren't looking to reinvent the wheel Wayne had a the reputation of producing a good product.This was not our experience however.It was warped enough that we had trouble getting it to bolt up. When we did get it bolted up we couldn't make up a difference of about a half inch on the passenger side wheelbase. The motor mounts weren't centered. We also felt that the rack was too far forward and presented too much Ackerman. The tie rods wouln't clear the inner wheel rims. So into the dumpster it went. We couldn't knock it off, whatever version he sent wouldn't work. Now we didn't invent suspension geometry, nor did Wayne, but we did have some experience and felt that we could do it better ourselves. So we pulled out General Motors spec sheets on their original 1st Gen frame. (I hope this isn't a sacrilage) grabbed the C5 suspension spec'd it up, thought long and hard about what we wanted to accomplish,plugged it into the computer (yes anyone can buy these software packages you don't even have to really know the math but it helps), spec'd out the geometry and then went to thrashing it out on the jig. After three prototypes we have something we feel comfortable with and will continue to develop.It has adjustability of caster, camber and instsant center, nothing knew, things which have been used in a number of Nascar classes for years. Now I think Payton presented that we are going to provide real world data on this chassis system. I haven't seen any for a WD chassis. So bolt yours up and bring it on. We'll meet you at the track where we're used to settling things.God this is fun.Ed

MrQuick
12-15-2004, 04:34 PM
Ok I see where this is going...lets not spark up a whole DSE vs. Speed tech style shoot out again.That did nothing but damage the scene around here.
What ever is going on behind the shop tables is between builder A and builder W. Lets not blow everything out of proportion. I stated this before that a certain set up to provide improvement over a stock set up will tend to look similar, its in the way things are engineered. Hell put an extra bend somewhere and call it yours. Plus having more than one provider gives the buying public a selection rather than a comprimse staying stock.

kracker
12-15-2004, 04:50 PM
Well maybe thats why WD doesn't have it on his site, or if you call him he will talk you out of a C-5 frame. I have talked to him myself and cant even imagine him not willing to say send it back and or lets work together. And even after what you just said he still would probably help you out. GM cant even get right all the time ever heard of a recall or T.S.B.

BTW where's your trash can?

Cdog
12-15-2004, 04:51 PM
I didn't want to get into this but since the subject has been broached here's the answer.We did order a WD chassis to install in a car but there were unfortunately problems with the frame.This was over a year and a half ago, maybe two.We weren't looking to reinvent the wheel Wayne had a the reputation of producing a good product.This was not our experience however.It was warped enough that we had trouble getting it to bolt up. When we did get it bolted up we couldn't make up a difference of about a half inch on the passenger side wheelbase. The motor mounts weren't centered. We also felt that the rack was too far forward and presented too much Ackerman. The tie rods wouln't clear the inner wheel rims. So into the dumpster it went. We couldn't knock it off, whatever version he sent wouldn't work. Now we didn't invent suspension geometry, nor did Wayne, but we did have some experience and felt that we could do it better ourselves. So we pulled out General Motors spec sheets on their original 1st Gen frame. (I hope this isn't a sacrilage) grabbed the C5 suspension spec'd it up, thought long and hard about what we wanted to accomplish,plugged it into the computer (yes anyone can buy these software packages you don't even have to really know the math but it helps), spec'd out the geometry and then went to thrashing it out on the jig. After three prototypes we have something we feel comfortable with and will continue to develop.It has adjustability of caster, camber and instsant center, nothing knew, things which have been used in a number of Nascar classes for years. Now I think Payton presented that we are going to provide real world data on this chassis system. I haven't seen any for a WD chassis. So bolt yours up and bring it on. We'll meet you at the track where we're used to settling things.God this is fun.Ed


Check your PM"S.

Ralph LoGrasso
12-15-2004, 06:36 PM
Guys,

I'm concerned about the direction of this thread with respect to the last few posts. Please try to keep it civil or the thread will be closed.

Thanks,

kracker
12-15-2004, 07:46 PM
Maybe some are saying to much, maybe I'm saying to much but doesn't it seem strange that a shop buys a frame and just happens to be at a time and place in there life to build a so called better frame base on the frame they bought? and then market it! Thats all have to say about that. Lets just pickup the pieces and move on. So to you Ed why will your frame with C-5, handle so much better then Johns frame with C-5? Both look like about the same, both are in first gen cars, whats the diff? you moved the rack back about 2'' and up about 2'' and made the algnment adjust on the lower contol arm. Looks like your using Dues steering arms or ones that look the same anyway. Maybe hes see how it should have been done and will build them this way now.

Salt Racer
12-16-2004, 05:12 AM
Before Ralph closes this thing...


...We also felt that the rack was too far forward and presented too much Ackerman...

Actually anti-Ackermann, isn't it?

Just for the record (for those newbies who don't know me), I don't work for 21st. I'm on neither side - I don't even own a Camaro. That said, it's really obvious to me the suspensions on WD's and 21st's are different. Doesn't matter both subframes use C5 suspension components. Like I said, it's all in pivot location, that includes R&P location. There's a chance 21st may have used dimensions off of bumper mounts and body mounts, etc, but suspensions are different. If you still think 21st copied WD's, then I must also say WD copied GM's design. Did WD ask for GM's permission? Probably not. Do I have any problem with that? No.


..we are going to provide real world data on this chassis system. I haven't seen any for a WD chassis. So bolt yours up and bring it on. We'll meet you at the track where we're used to settling things.God this is fun...

Yup what he said. Talk is cheap. Which subframe works better? Why don't you find it out yourself?

If you're happy with WD's subframe, then good. I'm happy for you. But that doesn't give you any right to talk others' products down, especially since none of you have any scientific proof whatsoever to back up your claims other than aesthetic values. What are you building, a show car or a performance car?

Boys at 21st and Payton King are working hard to come up with some numbers to back up their claims. Get your car running and take it to the road course. I did that with my Riviera, with no financial backing from the company I work for. There's no reason why you can't do the same. I drove 1300+miles one way to Streets of Willow track, so "there's no good track near me" will only be taken as a lame excuse.

Pull off better lap time than Payton's car with identical or lesser motor & tires, then you'll have legitimate bragging right but you still have no right to talk down others' efforts.

kracker
12-16-2004, 06:07 AM
There was a light blue 67 on power tour this year, in fact some one posted a small pic of it on the old site, it has logged over 5000 mile will be in a major mag soon and guesse what it has one of the Wd C-5, yea thats right the one that doestn work.
We ALL would love to a see the BIG shoot out! I know I would, but it wont happen,
its bad for biz. Just like you cant believe everything you read we all know that.
I just think Ed maybe should of had a little respect for a good person in the biz and just picked his words better.

Edward Bednar
12-16-2004, 12:26 PM
I think the shootout can still happen and would be a good idea. This is like the Ford vs. Chevy vs. Mopar stuff I grew up with. It's actually good fun and makes everyone better. Our frame may not stand up to others but if it doesn't I want to know why and I want to figure out how to make it better. The cam companies, the head companies, the intake companies all have to stand up to critical evaluation. Why not the suspension mods. There are definitely enough things we can measure. I mentioned my father was with R&D at GM. There were times he'd mentioned he was heading out to the proving grounds not to evaluate G.M.'s product but Ford, Chysler and others. They tore their competitors cars down to see what they were up to. They all do it. My father mentioned to me he felt Chysler engineers often had it over everyone else. Tough thing to admit when you work for the competitor but he was being honest with himself. Trying to motivate himself and his team to be better, more creative.Sometimes this is more a sign of corporate culture and what the engineers were allowed to do.The point is we all learn from one another.This is all said so you understand that I did choose my words carefully. I was explaining that this was our experience with this particular version of one of his frames. This is what we chose to do about it. I have alot of respect for Wayne. Building any chassis is no small undertaking. I've seen some pics of some other frames he's done with the C5 that have the rack in the stock location with the motor being pushed back well into the firewall. This maintains more of the original geometry which is near ideal. Read Adams texts on suspension design. The G.M. engineers almost followed it to a T.This may be one of his versions on the road.. But this requires major firewall and trans tunnel modifications. Not everyone has the means or desires to pursue this extensive an undertaking. We designed our frame to avoid this and bolt up hopefully in a weekend with a small block or LS1. The big block version requires some firewall and trans tunnel work, not too extensive, and some oil pan mods. We have a drop version of the frame but which also requires extensive mods.We want a little of something for everyone.We wanted adjustability he didn't offer as well.Again nothing new. I hope most everyone understands most suspension technology goes back in this particular arena for over 50 yrs. Alot of Adam's work probably dates back 30 yrs.There's not much that hasn't already been tried and worked out by some extremely bright people. We just try to apply what they found to work into our package. We are proud of it.We do want to see it thashed on the road and I do want to hear what people think could be better. I also want to see others do the same.
In answer to the other refernce about steering arms.The steering arms have to be specfic to all major variables in a frame design.You can't push the rack back without building a new arm. You can't change instant center without building a new arm at least in our experience.A hi-performance frame is a very twitchy thing. Change one thing and everything else can go to hell in a hand basket. That's why Sundays are so much fun in Nascar. The littlest things can make all the difference in the world. Ed

TitoJones
12-16-2004, 01:10 PM
Ed-

Just wanted to welcome you to the board. It is never fun defending your products or rep, and we get very few manufacturers who are willing to stick it out.
I think it is nice to have competition, and this is coming from a Wayne Due Whore. I'd love to see all the suspension makers go head to head to see which frame is the ultimate-
DS&E's new frame
Wayne Due C4/C5
21st C5
Chassisworks Mustang II
Martz Road race
I think we should have a tire requirement to the cars in the shootout of no more than a 275 up front with a 335 max out back.
Good luck with the venture.
Tyler

BRIAN
12-16-2004, 02:23 PM
Ed Good luck in selling your product. I can't understand the bashing unless it comes from WD's shop themselves. If you connect the mtg points on a stock Camaro frame how different do you want it to wind up? I wouldn't even apologize if you did buy his frame, you were simply sizing up the market and making educated changes to a product that you saw shortcomings in. Every other post on this site is somebody trying to get measurements or demensions of a part so they can fabricate their own so why is everybody on the attack. If they are WD fans great stick to his product. If Ed is wrong in his changes and his product is poorly constructed the market will let him know. I am impressed that he is taking the criticism and actually saying that he is willing to make further improvements. There are tons of post saying what if I could buy something with this or that type of mod. Here you have a MFG with an opened mind listening to you. Hey let him know what the market wants he sounds ready to deliver. WD fans stick with your product as it is very good and what makes you happy but others use this as an open opurtunity.
The only way a shootout would work would be one car with the frames swapped out leaving everything else equal.

Cdog
12-16-2004, 03:33 PM
I think the shootout can still happen and would be a good idea. This is like the Ford vs. Chevy vs. Mopar stuff I grew up with. It's actually good fun and makes everyone better. Our frame may not stand up to others but if it doesn't I want to know why and I want to figure out how to make it better. The cam companies, the head companies, the intake companies all have to stand up to critical evaluation. Why not the suspension mods. There are definitely enough things we can measure. I mentioned my father was with R&D at GM. There were times he'd mentioned he was heading out to the proving grounds not to evaluate G.M.'s product but Ford, Chysler and others. They tore their competitors cars down to see what they were up to. They all do it. My father mentioned to me he felt Chysler engineers often had it over everyone else. Tough thing to admit when you work for the competitor but he was being honest with himself. Trying to motivate himself and his team to be better, more creative.Sometimes this is more a sign of corporate culture and what the engineers were allowed to do.The point is we all learn from one another.This is all said so you understand that I did choose my words carefully. I was explaining that this was our experience with this particular version of one of his frames. This is what we chose to do about it. I have alot of respect for Wayne. Building any chassis is no small undertaking. I've seen some pics of some other frames he's done with the C5 that have the rack in the stock location with the motor being pushed back well into the firewall. This maintains more of the original geometry which is near ideal. Read Adams texts on suspension design. The G.M. engineers almost followed it to a T.This may be one of his versions on the road.. But this requires major firewall and trans tunnel modifications. Not everyone has the means or desires to pursue this extensive an undertaking. We designed our frame to avoid this and bolt up hopefully in a weekend with a small block or LS1. The big block version requires some firewall and trans tunnel work, not too extensive, and some oil pan mods. We have a drop version of the frame but which also requires extensive mods.We want a little of something for everyone.We wanted adjustability he didn't offer as well.Again nothing new. I hope most everyone understands most suspension technology goes back in this particular arena for over 50 yrs. Alot of Adam's work probably dates back 30 yrs.There's not much that hasn't already been tried and worked out by some extremely bright people. We just try to apply what they found to work into our package. We are proud of it.We do want to see it thashed on the road and I do want to hear what people think could be better. I also want to see others do the same.
In answer to the other refernce about steering arms.The steering arms have to be specfic to all major variables in a frame design.You can't push the rack back without building a new arm. You can't change instant center without building a new arm at least in our experience.A hi-performance frame is a very twitchy thing. Change one thing and everything else can go to hell in a hand basket. That's why Sundays are so much fun in Nascar. The littlest things can make all the difference in the world. Ed

Hey Ed. I'll donate my car to use as your beta tester. It's all ready to go with new sheet metal and all new trunk pan ( not installed yet). You can keep it as long as you need it to prove your suspension.

MrQuick
12-16-2004, 06:52 PM
Thanks for the profesionalism Ed, its a welcome trait. Katz are you mad?
Now the attitude.
Its just some of us feel Wayne is one of us and they find your competition threatning. But we must realize this is good for business believe it or not. It may open up a flood gate for the aftermarket. Now the east coast can have C5 suspensions. I will still support Wayne he's closer but will still listen to what Ed has to say.I mean hell theres a couple hundred Camaros on the road,I think we can all get along.

Wayne Due
12-17-2004, 08:36 AM
I just want say what Ed did is OK with me, ( I didnt have to refund him LOL) we all do it. Was he the first no. will he be the last no. Will Tyler sell him a T-56 kit, probably not LOL . I did have problems with the C-5 frame yes the rack position being the big prob. I build about 7 of them, and some are on the road and work really nice.
Good luck ED.
Brain, salt racer ..Thanks for understanding!

Salt Racer
12-17-2004, 08:48 AM
No Vince, I'm not mad. I just got irritated a little.

I've been sent to Lateral-G's thread about 21st subframe by one of members here before. If you haven't seen the thread, go there and read Ed's posts. How often do you see a guy from manufacturer takes a time and explains their design philosophies, why their stuff is designed the way they are, etc. using proper technical terms with absolutely no BS advertising crap mixed? That's professionalism and an indication of their great customer service, and I'm pretty damn sure they'll soon have their own faithful followers.

And here are those new guys bashing on their products solely based on the aesthetic values. They've already made their decisions to go with WD's subframe, so why did they even bother starting this thread? Either they weren't sure if they've made the right decision (which isn't likely based on their posts), or just to bad mouth what they think is inferior product.

Judging products based on looks and craftsmanship is fine if this was Show-Touring.com (that's kinda oxymoron, isn't it?). But even then, talking down on new products that none of them have any first-hand experience with, let alone starting a thread just to bad mouth, is totally uncalled for.

If you don't like something new on market, that's fine. Just keep your mouth shut if you have nothing positive to say.

Well, maybe I am mad a little.

Wayne,
Thanks for chiming in. Good to see you here. Come visit us sometime.

trayb
12-17-2004, 10:13 AM
Man, All this bickering about C-5 setups. Does it really matter if you go with a WD's or 21st's subframe? I have opted to get mines custom built by Neil Lea of Rods and Restos in Centre, Alabama. I have know Neil for a while and approve of his work. There is not a car that comes out of his shop that is not right. Even though he builds $300K rods, he is willing to do my C-5 subframe. Just in case you want to see some refs check out this link:

http://chevyhiperformance.com/featuredvehicles/148_0312_coty/index1.html

If you got any questions, call him at 256-927-2199 and tell him that Tray sent you about the C-5 Subframe.

justanova
12-17-2004, 10:18 AM
its good to see both Wayne and Ed handling themselves professionally.

To me they both look like very good products and i just hope that someday i get the chance to maybe own either of their products.

trayb
12-17-2004, 10:20 AM
Just in case you wanted to know. I actually drove that red 55 and it handles better than my firends new Porsche 911 turbo. Another link or the car:

http://popularhotrodding.com/features/PHR_0212Cream/

Wayne Due
12-17-2004, 10:24 AM
I wanted to make it clear on my last post, I dont think Ed copyed the frame, were all copying frames right.
But also wanted to thank JR and the others for being there and sticking there neck out for me. I think this frame ( Ed's) has sparked some interest in me to better the C-5 frame I have, I'm also working on a C-5 rear clip for any car, Thats what well be putting in JR's car. And since the gauntlet had been throw maybe a show down is in order.
BTW: if looks dont matter why race or build Chev II's or Camaros? Chevettes and
pintos are lots cheaper, or maybe looks matter just a little LOL

Later
W

Salt Racer
12-17-2004, 10:53 AM
Yes, looks does matter. Otherwise I'd have picked up '63 or '64 Riv for much less money than a '65 w/ cooler headlights.

But when it comes to something that concerns performance and safety (suspension, brakes, etc), aesthetics shouldn't be the priority for judging products. I know you know what I meant :)

cpederslie
12-17-2004, 11:05 AM
First, Thanks Wayne for jumping in here and throwing your two pennies in, just made JR and I look like bigger arses, but wtf I have been called worse.

Second, I am a little shocked at how over excited everyone seemed to get. Wholly crap, I gave MY opinion and that's all because I was asked what I thought. That doesn't mean I think its an inferior product or that Ed shouldn't be doing what he is. IT WAS AN OPINION, last time I checked this was a FREE country and I have the right to express my opinions, especially when asked. Yes, I formulated my opinon on an article and the pictures in that article and no I haven't seen Eds product in person. Some one that has one installed come on over and let me crawl around it and see it in person.

Maybe aesthetics or the way something looks doesnt' matter to some people, but it certainly does to me regardless of what the car is being used for. Just because I am building a pro-touring car doesn't mean it shouldn't be show worthy either. I plan to drive mine cross country and participate in shows as well. That said, I have to be happy with the way it looks, its constructed, etc. After all its my car its going into and not yours. But hey, I respect YOUR opinion.

One of the main reasons I chose a WD clip is that he is close to home and I can drop in, ask quesitons, make sure its getting done the way I want it done. That and Waynes a great guy.

I am sure that the same is true for Payton and his selection of Ed's clip and I don't have anything against that. He's obviously looked it over, asked all the questions and likes what Ed has to offer. Good, that's the way it should be.

Ed, sorry if my opinions were taken harsh or wrong, hopefully you took it as constructive criticism rather than a bashing. Just the impressions I had from the article, pictures, etc. I am sure yours works great. I'd love to see the shoot off of all clips go head to head and see what the outcome of those are.

HEY ANY MAGAZINE GUYS READING THIS! Here's a great feature for you to get the ball rolling on! Gauranteed to bring lots of excitement to the issue and the products covered!

With that said I think this F**king post should die, it obviously spun way out of control.

zbugger
12-17-2004, 11:34 AM
Honestly, I think this post should stay up. I believe it will help others understand how R&D work in product development. That's justhow competition works. Thanks to both Ed and Wayne for giving their sides. Here's also to hoping that we can be the exclusive coverage of the shootout, if it is to take place. There is no way to build a product that you can claim is superior to another product without at least looking at the competitions first. Many times you have to look at what they are doing so you can come up with a better way of doing the same thing. Do you know how much research GM had to do when designing the LS1 to come to the conclusion that it should remain pushrod based? They did look into the OHC thing. Hell, they had it in limited production with the LT5. I see no wrong in what anyone has done here. Everyone is giving great info. I'm beginning to like reading. :geek:

Salt Racer
12-17-2004, 01:21 PM
At first, I just chimed in just to let everyone know you really can't judge a book by its cover. Then I got ticked off by posts accusing guys at 21st copying WD's design, by the very same person who started this thread and a couple of others.

As a suspension engineer myself, I could tell how much trouble and numerous design iterations that guys at 21st went through to come up with good handling suspension. It is obvious to trained eyes that two suspensions are not identical. Then someone accuses of them copying somebody else's design w/o any pickup points measurement. I certainly would get frustrated if someone accuses of me copying someone else's design just b/c there is some external resemblance.

Yes, this is indeed a free country and everyone is entitled to one's own opinion. My statment "keep your mouth shut" came from more of a political issue among people working in this industry, and may not have been appropriate to say that to general public. I apologize for that, but let's keep things civil. Accusations w/o any proof is hardly civil.

I too have desire for good aesthetics to a certain degree, but function is more important to me. I'm a little more hardcore than most guys here. I'm a kind of guy who would trade in 18s on my car for a set of 195/80R15 wide white wall tires in a heartbeat if those tires had better turn-in response and more grip. I don't think majority of people here would do the same.

It is possible to build a show quality PT car, and I would get along with the owner just fine if he uses the car like it is intended. But I've seen few too many cases of the opposite.

As an engineer, I get seriously offended when I see good stuff on a trailer queen show car b/c I take my job seriously. I work my azz off trying to come up with good design, only to see my suspension being used only on fairgrounds at less than 5mph. This has happened to me many more times than I can remember, and is very disappointing. It really doesn't matter if those cars win big trophies at car shows - I want them to be used like they are intended. Imagine you being one of Porsche chassis engineer and run into a guy who owns a GT3 - how would you feel if he told you he'll never take it to the track b/c he's afraid of scratching lower control arms or something?

If you want to make your car show quality, please do so. It's your car and you have all the right to build it the way you want it. But don't make it so nice that you'll be afraid of using it. And don't get blinded by shiney parts and misjudge the engineering behind them. Form doesn't necessarily follow function.

That's all I gotta say.

cpederslie
12-17-2004, 02:07 PM
Salt, I can agree with everything you just said. I build my cars to drive, not ride around on the deck of trailer. I put lots of time and research into the components I use knowing what I intend to do with the vehicle. One of the main reasons I will stand behind Wayne and his product is that he helps provide a huge wealth of knowledge that I can't even claim to have. And you say that form doesn't necessarily follow function. True. But look at Art Morrison products, IMO the poster child of form following function!

That was my last two cents, you can keep the change.

jr2
12-17-2004, 02:59 PM
So the questions still remain.

If 21st Century Street Machines are the suspension/fabrication professionals they claim to be?

Why?

Purchase a WD clip?
Claim to throw it away?
Never call, email or carrier pigeon with any relevance to the problem?(When everyone knows WD would do anything to make things right)
Claim to have never seen the article before going into print? (That's a huge lawsuit waiting to happen right there.)

I can't answer those for you. You can answer them for yourself. This is a forum. We all use this as a tool for our own ego boosting, Q&A, fact finding and humor or anything else that may fit the bill. If you take a look at all of the thread listings you'll know what I mean. If you can't you're lying to yourself.

The definition of a forum:

forum ( P ) Pronunciation Key (frm, fr-) n. pl. forums, also fora (fr, fr)

1.
a.The public square or marketplace of an ancient Roman city that was the assembly place for judicial activity and public business.
b.A public meeting place for open discussion.
c.A medium of open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper or a radio or television program.
d.A public meeting or presentation involving a discussion usually among experts and often including audience participation.
e.A court of law; a tribunal.


I have not used any profanity. I have not made any rude or slanderous public remarks or comments to any one in the forum regarding this. And I certainly have not taken out a front page add anywhere.

What I have done is expressed my opinion in a public forum for open discussion. You may take from it what you like, and leave the rest behind.

If the powers that be deem this thread to be no longer credible or find it not within the rules, so be it. I've said my peace just like everyone else. Only I'm takin the heat for it!

JR2

kracker
12-17-2004, 03:35 PM
I think what those boys just said ROCKS ! it makes me feel good about this sport,
cped, and salt you BOTH are right on and others! But JR you hit it right on!
ED, we all think those questions need to addressed...But I dont think you should bash or lie.. the people here are to smart for that kinda BS.
Salt, I do after reading your post I think your right, copying is a bad and missplaced word. But the fact that the mag said first with an all new C-5 bolt in, well, I think that was wrong.

derekf
12-17-2004, 03:49 PM
Perhaps I'm missing the point here.. but if Wayne says that he doesn't have an issue with anything that was done with the frame, why should anyone else?

More than anything else, I'm tickled that we have multiple frame fabricators (direct competitors) posting on the board WITHOUT any malice towards each other. I'd like to see a little more of that from others.... it sounds like a couple of folks have got an issue with a couple of other folks. I'm not going to point fingers; I don't think I have to. When you post, you can choose to write in an inflammatory manner or you can choose not to.

When you post, please re-read what you've typed before posting. We love discussions here. Heated discussions aren't so popular - feelings get hurt, people get resentful, and the wonderful technical discussions are replaced with flame wars and bashing.

Salt Racer
12-17-2004, 06:27 PM
I'd post in here for the one last time. Not b/c I have to have the last word, but to clear up some misunderstandings, which caused this whole mess...



Purchase a WD clip?
Claim to throw it away?
Never call, email or carrier pigeon with any relevance to the problem?(When everyone knows WD would do anything to make things right)
Claim to have never seen the article before going into print? (That's a huge lawsuit waiting to happen right there.)


These are easy to understand if you've worked in this industry. I just happen to know all this just b/c I currently work in this industry. I'm no better than anybody else here. But when you get deep into this hobby, I think you guys need to understand some of these.

Buying competitors' products happens on daily basis. In case of chassis shops that grew out of fab shops (as in case of 21st and WD), they still build cars for individual customers and you'll have no choice but to buy competitors' product if that is what customer requests, not necessarily to copy their product. Without knowing this, it appeared as if 21st was copying WD's to some people. This is an everyday event for me, and I took this whole thing as an accusation w/o proof. Here's an interesting tid bit for you. I know WD has bought weld-in subframes with C5 IFS from Art Morrison before he introduced his own C5 sub. The difference in R&P location is apparent, but who's to say if WD didn't copy AME's control arm locations? But neither guys at AME nor WD think of this as much more than ordinary business. (more on this later)

About not contacting WD about the problems 21st encountered, it would have been nice of them if they let WD be aware of the issues. But there's all sorts of weired politics in this industry, just like any other business. Some choose to co-operate with each other, and others choose not to. My shop has done the same thing numerous times. We just paid and bought some products from some company just like all you guys do, and that is it. If the product doesn't work, we either modify it to make it work, or make our own. It's not really our business to stick our neck into what somebody else is doing especially when you're dealing with a direct competitor. Besides, making your products right is your own responsibility. So there is no hard feelings with one another about this.

I suspect 21st got one of first prototypes WD built. When there are many issues, you just HAVE TO assume there are other problems you can't see with naked eyes and for liability reason, especially on something like suspension and brakes, it sometimes is easier to start from scratch when you have access to material and proper tools. 21st and WD are 3000+miles apart. Truck freight takes at least a week, not to mention the cost. Meanwhile, customer starts getting pissed at the shop for not getting the job in time frame he was promised. Subframe has stuff welded everywhere, so there's not much material you can salvage. Shop space is premium, so it finds its way into a dumpster.

As far as magazine article goes, depending on editors, you really have no control over what they're going to write. It is not rare for them to give you a call asking for info/articles a couple of days before the deadline. Once you submit your info/draft, editors rearrange/reword/rephrase to add his own flavor to the article. In the process, info sometimes gets messed up and by the time the editor finishes up, it's time for the article to go into press. At this point, there's nothing you can do about it even if you knew some info needed correction. I've written some tech articles for magazines over the past coupla years, and I freaked out the first time I saw my stuff printed in a magazine b/c tech info was no longer accurate. There's nothing you can do but to move on. Chances are the inaccurate info you guys saw in the magazine was not 21st' fault.

Last but not least, regarding the whole copying thing...Most guys simply don't care. WD doesn't care. I really don't care if someone copies my design b/c I know how to make my existing designs better (but I do get pissed at accusations and whatnot). We do this for business, and we're constantly learning and moving ahead. In this particular case, GM built Camaro in only one way, so there's only so many ways you can build a bolt-on subframe for a Camaro. It's no surprising that different subframes on market have body mounts in the same locations, with engine mounts in identical locations. Look at how many similar-looking intake manifolds and headers there are for small block Chevy. Products from many different manufacturers eventually end up looking identical, with only minor different details that only trained people can see, at least until there's some technological break through.

That's it. I'm ready for beer.

Edward Bednar
12-20-2004, 04:47 AM
Sorry I haven't had as much time to follow the last couple of days of postings.Thanks Wayne for joining in.Salt your last post shows your great insight into the business. I couldn't have said things much better.I haven't taken offense to anything presented in the forum so I hope no one else has either. I also hope everyone knows that the primary objective of all of this is to have fun and enjoy the sport.Well, I better get busy we got a shootout coming up. Thanks all. Ed