Cost/Benefit for 2 gen Camaro T/A Track Day cars

[Mike70T/A]

Help,
Pro-touring dewy-eyed virgin here. I went to a stock car racing school 2 years ago and in two weeks I'm attending a 4 day road racing school in Portland OR. I am so excited I'm just moist. Anyway among my other vices (69 Camaro conv and 69 Charger 440 RT/SE), I adopted a neglected 1970 Trans Am (see attached). The original drive train is long gone and the interior was done in the '70s in neon white diamond tuck and roll. (the car is full of full of bugs and smells like low tide but I'll never part with the interior.....it just means too much to me.....ok maybe not) Anyway the car is an genuine T/A but the original parts are gone so I can rebuild it the way I want and give it a 2nd life.

So my question is for site members who take their cars for track days - how did you build your car to maximize the cost benefit ratio? In other words, I want to be able to go to the track and have a great weekend, but I don't want to have to spend $1500 every time I do. I love the Lateral-Dynamics 3 link rear and have talked to Mark about his progress on front suspensions. I am currently looking at the ATS T-56 as well, but am undecided for an engine, wheels, brakes, seats. Consumables like brakes and tires as well as engine rebuilds would seem to be the major items. Do you use the bias ply race tires, or radial street tires at the track? Do you use a dry sump on your engine? What about a collapsable steering column? As a novice track day racer I am looking for personal enjoyment, reasonable cost, reliability, safety, ability to easily tune and (most importantly) a Trans Am at least marginally faster at PIR than my brother's Porsche!

Any suggestions would be welcome.

Thank you
7TTA

[David Sloan]

This is not what you are asking about but,
I have a very soild 71 camaro body i would trade you for that t/a
Thanks

[7TTA]

David,
I appreciate it, and I love '71 Camaros but I have developed a deep emotional bond for this car. When it came off the car carrier (from Tennessee) we stored it at our shop facility and the shop guys (all motorcycle riders) had no idea why I would take it for free much less pay money for the T/A. Now they call me "Joe Dirt" and when I'm up at the shop they will page me "Joe.....line 2...Joe Dirt...line 2". Really that's not very nice..... But when this is redone in a 2000 T/A white and the original blue livery with some modern touches it will be a real heartbreaker...

[RobM]

well lets start with this....

you want to beat your brothers porsche..... how serious is his car?


do you want this car to be streetable?

[Mike70T/A]

Rob,
Great questions...My brother (younger, taller, richer - God how I hate him) sold his boxster and is buying some sort of new 911 derivative, but in all honesty I do not have to be faster than him or have anything close to the fastest car on the track.

I would rather build up the T/A than buy a Z06. Part of the experience would be to put the project together myself.

and the streetable question is one I have wrestled with. I will see how the racing school goes and how much I think I can fit this into my life, but I have two street cars now and another Camaro I'll build in the future, so I am leaning on making this a track day car only that I just haul on a trailer to the track. I am hopeful that this would allow me to significantly lighten and strengthen the car for the track.

[LowBuckX]

Find a way to put that thing on a diet. I know 2nd gens are pigs weight wise. But I do love the early first gens

[surlyjoe]

actually early 2nd gens aren't that bad. Lose the endura nose they are very heavy. Haven't weighed mine but have seen weights in the 3100 - 3500 range. Use an ls1-2 and that will help.

[LowBuckX]

Why do I remember weighs in the 4000-4200# range.. Or was that the 77-78

********EDIT*******
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/30005-1970-pontiac-firebird-trans-am-explained.htm

The 1970 Pontiac
Firebird Trans Am
Specifications
Wheelbase, inches: 108.0
Weight, lbs: 3,800
Number built: 3198
Base price: $4,305

The 1971 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am
Specifications
Wheelbase, inches: 108.0
Weight, lbs: 3,580
Number built: 2,116
Base price: $4,595

[CraigMorrison]

We just picked up a 71 Camaro to start building goodies for, and it looks like there is going to be just as many options for the 2nd gen crowd as there is currently for the 1st gen guys.

[Damn True]

It all depends on how much street use, if any, the car will see. You can really reduce your costs if you aren't concerned with many of the cosmetic/comfort related niceties. When you start calling Year-One and replaceing door panels, dash pads, carpet, headliner, adding dynamat, stereo systems etc the costs of items not related to negotiating the carousel really begin to add up.

If you go the LSx/T-56 route with the drivetrain you could (with judicious use of craigslist) get the drivetrain in the car for under $8k or so. Add to that about $4-5k for each end of the suspension, $2k for a track ready cage, seat and harness. $2-3k for wheels and tires (unless you want to pop for spendy forged hoops like Fikse...not a bad idea) Aluminum, pop-rivets and rattle can black for the interior.

It can be done on the cheap, but you will be giving up a ton in terms of street use and your spouse will probably hate riding in it.

[Takid455]

grante dthis is a 78, but take a look at this tread. you may pick up some ideas.

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27647

[surlyjoe]

Lowbuckx,

I should have been more clear. I believe the weights you found for stock cars. Not sure why there is so much difference between the two though.

I was thinking more of the cars that I have seen that are updated and what the car could weigh. ls1 manual no ac etc and 3300 should be attainable. Depending on how serious you want to get the car could be lighter. Not first gen light but not bad either. Especially considering you can hardly buy a new car under 3500 and lots over 4000.

The goal for mine is 3300. We will see. The nose is real heavy. I am trying to find a glass one.

[Bandit]

My '80 TA weighs in at 3750 lb. with a big block Chevy motor, which weighs around 650 lb. Therefore, an LS motor and a custom front subframe would put me in the 3300 lb. range.
-250 lb. for the engine
-200 lb. for the subframe
Add to that extensive use of fiberglass body panels and a simplified interior, I think 3000 lb. would be attainable on a street-driven 2nd gen.
So not cheap, but do-able.

[RobM]

second gens are also not so bad for aerodynamics

[10Seconds]

Over at Performance Years, there has been much discussion on getting these 2nd gen TA's down in weight. I think the lowest ever documented so far is about 2700. And that is very tough.

As of yet many parts are not available for 2nd gens that the 1st gen guys enjoy, but it seems are day is coming.

[Mean 69]

As of yet many parts are not available for 2nd gens that the 1st gen guys enjoy, but it seems are day is coming.

And sooner than you might even think! We are nearly finished with the parts we are developing for the front of the second gen cars though we still have a bit of work to do. Our approach is to use the stock frame, convert to coil-overs via a custom bracket setup that we have designed (prototype in hand and will be installed tomorrow/Friday, very stoked), new tubular upper and lower control arms (lowers will work with coil-over only, no need to replace stock lowers if using the stock style springs...), custom front anti-roll bar, and improved steering gear (it will use a stock style box, steering geometry on these cars is pretty darned good and would be impossible to duplicate with a rack and pinion unit due to packaging issues).

We already have our signature 3-Link kit for the rear suspension ready to go as well, and will be working with a client to insure that it will fit the post 73 era cars (floorpan differences due to cat converters, etc) and will adjust if necessary.

Probably the most exciting part is that we are getting really close on the shop car to show all the stuff off. The body is in the paint shop and should be ready to shoot in a few weeks. Should be a very nice car when completed.

Nice thing about the second gen cars relative to a lot of other candidates is that they are still plentiful, cheaper than a first gen F body car (although prices are rising, if you find a good one, BUY IT NOW!!!). They are slippery in terms of aero, and have a slightly wider track than the first gens. We're a littie biased, but we highly recommend the second gen cars for street, track or dual duty. Excellent cars, go for it. I know for a fact that you will see more and more second gen builds, and more products coming out for them these days.

Mark

[Mean 69]

-200 lb. for the subframe

With the exception of replacing the relatively heavy steering box with a rack and pinion, there isn't much you could do with a front subframe replacement to reduce the weight, and certainly not by 200 pounds. Not safe anyway, the stock frames are plenty sturdy, but they are not overly heavy as most folks think (myself included until we started on our car). But without question, anything you can do on a track car to reduce weight is of critical importance if safety is not compromised. A glass hood would be a biggie, they are long, and heavy (steel ones). With an appropriate roll cage, you could lose a few pounds by removing the inner door braces, and there are some other bits and pieces that could come off too. I'd guess that you could get it really darned close to a first gen weight without too much fuss.

Mark

[Mike70T/A]

Maybe this is a question for another thread, but what is the relative weights of bare (no suspension) first and second generation subframes? I was in a shop last week and they had a 70 Camaro with the subframe redone after painting and it was surprising light just by picking it up off the floor.

[Streetking]

Rob,
Great questions...My brother (younger, taller, richer - God how I hate him) sold his boxster and is buying some sort of new 911 derivative, but in all honesty I do not have to be faster than him or have anything close to the fastest car on the track.

I would rather build up the T/A than buy a Z06. Part of the experience would be to put the project together myself.

and the streetable question is one I have wrestled with. I will see how the racing school goes and how much I think I can fit this into my life, but I have two street cars now and another Camaro I'll build in the future, so I am leaning on making this a track day car only that I just haul on a trailer to the track. I am hopeful that this would allow me to significantly lighten and strengthen the car for the track.

Eventhough the 2 gens are heavy, they do handle well, much better than the 1st gen cars. Concentrate on a good motor, big brakes and coolers. While Pontiac motors are good, they have oil control issues under hard cornering.. How good a driver is your brother? If you are better, that could be a second or more on a track..

SW

[Mean 69]

Maybe this is a question for another thread, but what is the relative weights of bare (no suspension) first and second generation subframes? I was in a shop last week and they had a 70 Camaro with the subframe redone after painting and it was surprising light just by picking it up off the floor.


They are basically the same in terms of bare weight. We have one of each in the shop getting coil-over conversions/seam weld, I'd say the second gen is possibly a bit heavier, but I'd guess no more than ten or fifteen pounds.

M