Suspension balance - coils with air - do they work together?

[Blue Oval Man]

Hi, new guy on the block here. I am working on the wife's 68 Stang Fastback. I am thinking seriously on using the airbar setup in the rear and was wondering about compatibility/balance with steel coils in the front. The front suspension consists of a mix of GW and Opentracker components and 480-600 variable rate coils. I was thinking of the airbar for its adjust-ability and ride quality. I would be using it without a pump and tank, just schrader valves to keep costs down (already have WAY to much invested in this car) and don't care about the up / down adjustments that a lot of lawn chair show cars seem to like. This thing is being built to be driven hard! Uses of the car will include drag, auto X, opentrack events if the opportunity should arise, and LOTS of open highway miles. Looking forward to any input you can put forward.
David

[MonzaRacer]

Go for it but once you have the Air in the back you will drool for it in the front!
Go check the Formosa challenge or what ever that is. They have 2 ART cars there and really do great from what i hear.

[CraigMBA]

No way would I use air bags if you want to drive the car hard. If you wanted to lay the car out at carshows and have it ride real plush, go for it.

The biggest fundamental problem with the bag is it requires a really bizzarre shock package to compensate for the way airsprings load compared to a conventional spring. Most bag users cheese out on the shocks. I could see somebody making a reasonable argument for buying a set of Penskes if you really wanted to dial the car in, but why? So you can lay the rear out at carshows?

The optimal rear end for these cars in a performance application IMO is either the Griggs or the Total Control torque arm rear end, followed by leafs and all of the locator products that Cobra Automotive sells.

[Blue Oval Man]

No way would I use air bags if you want to drive the car hard. If you wanted to lay the car out at carshows and have it ride real plush, go for it.

The biggest fundamental problem with the bag is it requires a really bizzarre shock package to compensate for the way airsprings load compared to a conventional spring. Most bag users cheese out on the shocks. I could see somebody making a reasonable argument for buying a set of Penskes if you really wanted to dial the car in, but why? So you can lay the rear out at carshows?

The optimal rear end for these cars in a performance application IMO is either the Griggs or the Total Control torque arm rear end, followed by leafs and all of the locator products that Cobra Automotive sells.

Jeez, the Air Ride Tech guys seem to drive their cars fairly hard at some of the track events I have seen covered on TV and in the mags, and from reading other treads on here it doesn't seem to be a problem. From what I have seem, they seem to have their bag/shock combination figured out pretty well also, it certainly isn't anything bizarre!

Laying the car out at shows holds no interest for me, but ya, a nice ride is pretty important as we have the worlds worst roads up here in Saskatchewan, and to go to any event involves at least 3 - 5 hours of road travel from where I live.

Total control, a definite bank breaker, and while the griggs setup is definitely nice, I HAVE to stick to bolt on for this car. (somehow just can't cut up a big block GT fastback) Ya, I have considered just sticking to leafs and using GW or Cobra Automotive bushings, sliders etc., but it all comes back around to adjust-ability and ride, and I don't feel I will get that with leafs. Don't get me wrong, if a well set up leaf system would give me both adjust-ability and ride, I would still consider them. I am not a "I got to get rid of these leafs no matter what" kind of guy.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

i do agree that being able to just drop the rear will make you want it up front..

BUT

for what homeboy is sayin.. hes wrong.

AirRideTech has proven their product on the track and quite frankly it was pretty impressive..

someone post up that video of the 2nd gen getting busy...

[CraigMBA]

The fundamental problem with airbags is how the spring rebounds after it's compressed. Where a conventional spring will load and unload at the same rate, an airbag pushes back much harder than it's compressed. Thus, airbags require special shocks with additional rebound valving engneneered in them to operate properly.

On Thursday night I got the oppourtunity to follow an airsystem down the 22 freeway in Orange County, CA through a construction zone. This particicular S-10 had so little rebound, and even over small bumps the driver had to be totally up on the wheel to keep it in the lane. It has been my experence that people who install bags chinz out on the big dollar shock package when they see the price. And I can't imagine driving this car hard. It almost looked he he didn't have any shocks at all.

The Air Ride folks run the ultra trick but goofy shock package I'm writing about. Last time I checked, that shock package is the same price as the air ride conversion.

I'm not saying that you can't make the car handle with air ride, but I am saying that there's no reason to do half a system. OP said he wanted to keep the front end the way it is. That said, I sincerely believe for a track car or a car you plan on driving hard, the torque arm suspension is the best commercially availible product - better than the four link. You could even use it with bags if you like.

But why do half an system, or worse, half an air system with the wrong shocks?

Do I still look like an idiot?

[zbugger]

For what it's worth, it's been proven that the Air Ride stuff works. What you saw was a different animal altogether. Most of the 'bagged trucks you see are a different setup and the main idea of those things is to drop the truck. The Air Bar setup is intended for a performance setup. No, I haven't driven a car with the kit, but I've seen many TRUE PERFORMANCE oriented folks get their opinions changed by the Air Ride cars beating the snot out of their standard sprung/modified cars. Do a search and you can find video of the cars running around the track at our Pigeon Forge event.

Oh, and I haven't met you, so I can't tell you if you look like an idiot. You DO however sound rather uninformed.


Heh... Forgot to answer blue oval... Anyway, I'd call the guys at Air Ride. I don't know if I'd want to mix the two, but I think it could be done. The guys at Air Ride can straighten out any issues you may have.

[CraigMBA]

zbugger: that's fair.

I've seen those cars run at OT events too. And they run great, but they run the complete system. OP is talking about running half a system, with no tank, and on a strict budget.

[Blue Oval Man]

Half a system is exactly what I am wondering about. Oh ya, I would love to use the whole system, but finances just aren't available at the present, which is why I was considering the rear system first, with maybe upgrading to the whole system in the future.
On another note, while the bags would be my first choice, has anybody run the Chris Alston G-bar setup? It is identical to the Air Bar, only with coil overs. My thoughts are that it may be more compatible with my original style front end, as well as being a little cheaper. I could then upgrade to bags in the future if I should decide to go that route. I would like to hear your thoughts on this system as far as ride quality/adjust-ability, etc.
David

[TnBlkC230WZ]

If you are not after all out performance, but want ride height adjustability, I believe FatMan has the wonder bar for the early Stangs. It uses QA1 coil overs. It is bolt in, but the shock bar should be welded for added strenth. Not sure of installation on Mustangs. Just a thought?

[Blue Oval Man]

If you are not after all out performance, but want ride height adjustability, I believe FatMan has the wonder bar for the early Stangs. It uses QA1 coil overs. It is bolt in, but the shock bar should be welded for added strenth. Not sure of installation on Mustangs. Just a thought?

Ride Height adjust ability is something I could care less about once it is set, I am more interested in the fine tuning capability of the air setup as far as spring rate, ride quality, etc. I don't know that there is the possibility of tuning a coil over as well as a bag as the spring rate, and thus the ride quality, is pretty much set when you order the coil over. From what I understand, the high quality adjustable shocks in these systems do provide for some tuning of ride quality, as well as tuning for different events such as drag or autocross.
I have seen the FatMan wonder bar setup and it looks to be more of a street rod type of setup rather than a performance setup, although it does use fairly high quality coil overs. Thanks.
David

[camaro608]

Go for it but once you have the Air in the back you will drool for it in the front!
Go check the Formosa challenge or what ever that is. They have 2 ART cars there and really do great from what i hear.
lol what he was trying to say was Forza motorsport challenge cool show

[TnBlkC230WZ]

If you are after the tuning, then front and rear bags make sense as stated/explained above. Your front and rear spring rates as well as shock valving should complement each other. Otherwise; you will have your front and back ends of the vehicle moving at different rates. I believe you will spend quite a bit of money on shocks and front springs trying to sort out the balance. However, given time and trial and error, you can probably make it work.

[Blue Oval Man]

If you are after the tuning, then front and rear bags make sense as stated/explained above. Your front and rear spring rates as well as shock valving should complement each other. Otherwise; you will have your front and back ends of the vehicle moving at different rates. I believe you will spend quite a bit of money on shocks and front springs trying to sort out the balance. However, given time and trial and error, you can probably make it work.

Thanks, the spring rates and shock valving complimenting each other in a balanced manner is exactly what I was wondering about. I like the idea of making small changes in air pressure and shock valving like on the Air Ride shockwaves instead of changing springs and using different shocks. I have a feeling after a couple of spring or shock changes it would become such a hassle that I just wouldn't bother anymore. Adjustable shocks with my present coils on the front would be an option but it looks like it would be very hard to adjust them as there is not much room between the coils to access the adjustment knob. It looks like I should go with either bags on front and rear, or stick with my coil front and possibly an G-bar coil over rear setup.
David