Rebuild or replace?

[FASTRC5]

Hi,
I have a 68 Camaro that originally had a/c. The car is an exceptionally clean AZ car which lost it's compressor during an engine rebuild in MI. My question is should I rebuild the factory air new compressor, newlines new drier, charge it and hope that's all it needs. Or am I better off buying a complete after market unit?

Looking for some thoughts

Thanks

[Bandit]

Vintage Air..

[ProdigyCustoms]

By the time you restore the original A/C, for the same cost you could do a Vintage Air, smooth the firwall and gain some engine compartment room.

We sell Vintage Air and Classic Air. We can get your original stuff restored or get you new. Let us know if we can help

[MonzaRacer]

Oh come I like Vintagfe air but you can get new Galaxy hoses with compression fittings, use a drier with XH7 and if its not a norrifice tube set up you can get a oriffice tube replacement housing with compression fittings and use a Automatic adjusting Orifice tube.
It sometimes take a little work but it can be done and if you use an A6 compressor the new remans are very stable and that car can throw some serious cold air. You also use electric fans (most would anyway) and a new high efficiency condenser and it will work fine.
Heck my 71 Monte Carlo still had the POA/STV (Positive orifice acting/Suction throttling valve) a new drier and it was running 38 degrees out the vents and until the pulley bearing locked up it was very cool.
I swapped the compressor out, changed the bearing and put it on another car.
FASTRC5 ,where are you located?
I personally cant afford VA and really havent had great results from other brands but since I understand A/C pretty good its not hard to figure out.
Heck my 77 Monza still has an evaporator and if I have a condenser or can find one to fit I am gonna have A/C.
Good Luck,
Lee

[indyjps]

My father just went through this with a 65 impala. He had more in the original air and there are still some old pieces in there. if you can do a/c work yourself then you may come out ahead. I vote vintage air.

[Twentyover]

OK, this may have to do some with my background, but what is the objective?

Factory systems are designed for weenies who want a cool interior now, not 35 miles from here. Components (and we’re talking blowers and evaporators here) are sized accordingly. I have a Vintage Air unit that I’m tossing around the idea of putting into a car that doesn’t interest most people here- but am put off by the performance of the last aftermarket A/C I had. It was in an ’83 elCamino, and didn’t come close to the performance of the OEM unit in my 84 elCamino. Blower motors and wheels are generally small (and in the 83’s case, noisy), you’re trying to using a 5 pound evap trying to cool a 10 lb car, generally get a recirc air only system the builds up odors in the car. Temperature control may be iffy (wide swings in outlet temperature as they compressor works through an on-off cycle), depending on whether or not you integrate the heater. Never tried one of the integrated systems, but don’t think they could be that much better (not talking out my butt here, I’ve thought about some of the technical problems.)

If you have nothing, I guess I’d support going aftermarket. If you have a more or less complete system, I’d have absolutely no question rebuilding it. It should outperform the aftermarket systems. If I didn’t feel the need for a top notch A/C system, I’d ask myself why have it at all.

I like driving older cars. I want that older car to drive, turn, heat, cool, and provide music like a new car.

So what is your objective? A clean firewall? The best system possible at the lowest cost?

You’ve asked a question that’s impossible to answer. Who’s better Shaquille O’neal or Angelena Jolie? Kinda depends on what you’re doing, and you’ve provided little to no information on that point.

[Chad-1stGen]

dude no question Angelina Jolie...

[6'9"Witha69]

The VA stuff works well. I have 0 experience with how the factory stuff worked when right so I have no basis for comparison. My Siverado cools much faster, but in an old car on short trips, are you wearing a suit? probably not. Go with the cleaner look of the VA.

Also remember that insulating the car makes a HUGE difference in the performance of any heat/air system.

[73ta]

Go factory! My car did'nt have air but I put factory air in it. It was a pain and would have been much easier with aftermarket, but I'm glad I went that way. I don't care if my firewall is'nt smooth!

[TD509EFI]

MY vote is for the factory as well. I'm installing a BB in my '79 with factory air. Updating the accesory drive system to the Vintage Air frontrunner, but keeping the factory HVAC unit. As twentyover mentioned, you can't beat the factory stuff for heating / cooling, and you get fresh air to boot!

John

[MonzaRacer]

Like I said I have done conversions and while it sounds hard it really isnt.
I had a completely stock 71 Monte Carlo with R134A conversion and it blew 38 degrees and the fan wast working right.
I wish your car was here icould probably getit going in a few days.
The big trick for me now is I like the newer high efficiency condensors that are coming out, thin, strong and not over priced.
IF your evap core and condensor are solid (ie no leaks) the parts on the outside are easy.
The simplest system is a CCOT with the self ajusting orrifice tube and an Accumulator and you can use several compressors. The easiest way is to look at later 90s V8 trucks and the later compressors, but the A6 is a sweet unit and any reman you pick up will have better sealing.
If your local NAPA makes AC hoses you can get compression (like a compression fitting you would hook a steel line together with)type fittings you just have to order the proper size or you can mix/match parts from AC part catalogue.
Just remeber the drier/accumulator HAS to have XH7 dessicant to work best,XH5 can be used but it will not work with anything but R134a.
Also when charging custom setups you shoot for a steady 28 psi on low side and (with CCOT )it shouldnt shut off or cycle out at 2500 rpm with max AC, and it actually in my opinion not drop more than 3 or 4 PSI max if any at all, on cool days your high side will be around 200 give or take. AND you definately need 2 reasonably sized fans that run anytime the AC is onand one should default back to cooling by temp switch with AC off. I just looked at a 05 Silverado and they have a very nice dual fan set up too.I really need to remeasure the condensor as it has some great sealing ideas on the condensor.
Good luck
Lee Abel
AFTERMARKET PERFORMANCE

[Twentyover]

Minor correction to MonzaRacer's statement

As a rule, only XH7 and XH9 should be used with R134a. The binding agent used in XH5 breaks down in PAG oils. There was some reported success in the mod-1990’s using XH5 in retrofit systems, where the XH5 had been exposed to mineral oils and the binder pre-coated with mineral, but the reality is that there hasn’t been a new accumulator or R/D manufactured in the US in the last 10 years that has used anything but XH7 or XH9. Unlikely you’ll get a bad part off the shelf.

Binder in XH7 is tailored for 134a/PAG, while XH9 is tailored for blended (binary and ternary blends) refrigerant. They can all be retrofitted to an earlier iteration. XH9 was used primarily by imports where there was less control of refrigerants than there was/is in the US. XH7 was the desiccant of choice among US OEM’s and transplants

[MonzaRacer]

The XH5 is supposed to be used in R12 or R134a systems XH9 is only usefull in certain systems according to my source.
I NEVER use PAG in conversion anymore. Had a shop I worked at that wanted to use it in everything and I told him I was walking if he oput it in an R12 system.
IF everything is new in an old system (and I mean everything ) and the compressor is new and is remaned to use PAG oil then go with it.
I really like an aftermarket oil that is available from cliplight called ROC oil and it has a great ability to mix well with all oils(most uv ac dyes use it as a carrier) the big trouble is Cliplight will only sell it in 6 QT cases and it isnt super cheap.
BUT if you convert a car and it still has parts exposed to R12 use ESTER oil in properly rated viscosity.
Ford,GM and Chryco use different viscosity oils and using universals oils of the wrong chemistry will cause problems.
I used Ester oil in my 71`and it worked fine. I had one fella bring me a car the other day and he had used one of the "dump in" kits from WalMart.
Well we found some black sludge in the system so I got him a new condenser, flushed the evap core and replaced the leaking rubber hoses and swapped in a new A6 Compressor and we added 2 inline filters, an orifice tube repair part and AAOT and we used compression type ends on the hoses ,I used plastic spit tubing on low side hoses to hide repairs and fiberglass sleeving on high side and we used an accumulator adaptde to this car its an early 70's Impalla.
I added 2 16 in electric fans, one wired into a temp switch, one into the AC and bot run with AC on and we took shroud out and its much claener and it runs perfectly cool and threw out 39 degrees and the system never failed to freeze me out sitting at idle. Neat thing is that I wired the throttle kicker in to the fan (since its a 540 BBC)to raise the idle speed 500 rpm when the AC is on or the fans are running.
I also talked owner into using a CSI alternator since he has aout 5 k worth or stereo equip.
We had to have one line to hook up the accumulator up but local rad shop had some silversolder.
It looks great, works awesome and so far no problems.
Good luck with what ever you decide.
Lee

[Twentyover]

"Desiccants, Accumulators, Receiver/Driers
R-12 systems use an XH-5 desiccant, while R-134a systems use either XH-7 or XH-9 desiccant. Some manufacturers recommend routine replacement of the accumulator or receiver-drier to one containing XH-7 or XH-9 during the retrofit procedure. (Any systems with silica gel should also be switched to XH-7 or -9 desiccant.) Others recommend leaving it alone. Manufacturers generally agree, however, that the accumulator or receiver-drier should be replaced if the vehicle has over 70,000 miles or is older than five years, and is opened up for major repair. In that case, the only recommendation is to use the R-134a-compatible desiccants."

from http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/technicians/retrguid.html

I oversaw the conversion of R/D's manufactured between 1991 and 1995 to HFC134 compatability where I worked. My source was the local sales rep from UOP (molecular sieve). When baked in a closed system, the binder in virgin XH5 broke down with pag oils, reducing the bead size to the size of sand.

Use of mineral oils with HFC 134a caused devolution of the refrigerant into a mixture containing hydroflouric acid.

XH9 was developed by Showa Japan, a partially owned subsidiary of UOP. It was 'better' than XH7 because , of course, the Japanese developed it, and it was compatible with binary and ternary blends. Reason number 1 not to use it. It is also more costly than XH7. Favored by a few Japanese OEM's in the mid to late 90's, it's pretty much been phased out in the US, since we aren't supposed to in general be supporting blends.

So I'll pretty much stand by my statements on desiccant application.

Further, after I'd moved to the factory floor, in 1995, I stilled worked on R/D's. By the late 1990's we were having problems getting XH5, as production had ceased in most developed countries. IIRC we were getting ours from UOP's plant in Malaysia. At that point, it was UOP's sole facility making XH5. About 1997-1998 the place I was working decided that was it, we were replacing all applications of XH5 w/ XH7. Even though slightly more expensive, it was costing us more keeping a supply chain from Eurasia intact and to provide the dwindling demand. So there is, I believe, good reason to believe that new accumulators and driers using XH5 are pretty uncommon.

So again I'll pretty much stand by the comments I made on probablity of encountering new parts with XH5

Walked down to the other end of the building and talked to the guys at Zexel Valeo compressors about ester vs PAG. Their position is that PAGs have superior lubricity, and are the preferred lubricant, while esters are stopgap lubricant to support retrofit. Not sure that's the position of all compressor manufacturers, but it's the position ours take.

Now to the original question- If the questioner choses the retain the factory air, which has been open since the engine rebuild. He'll need a replacement pump, R/D (were these VIR? Don't remember). I agree you're correct in suggesting a CCOT system. Since the system has been open, it will need flushing to clear any particulates that may have entered. If he replaces hoses and O-rings (I'm not going to suggest he use something like an A6 compressor), pretty much every non-metalic component ill be new, so there's no reason to not use a PAG.

Personally have no experience with esters, so am unable to comment on their use beyound what the guys on the east side of the building told me. If the system in question was a currently operating R12 deal, I think your position has ALOT of merit. But I'm not sure the conditions described by the original poster reflect that set of conditions

[MonzaRacer]

Since posting I did find that there wont be any accumulators with XH5.
But honestly I dont see any use for R12 anymore anyway.
For the most part I had a place that rebuilt VIR assemblies for R134a but since then that company has went under.
Considering that the AC parts companies have perfected the compression fitting system (basicly all that was changed was orings) and I have used them several times on conversions.
As for any cycling system we have also found that even if the system is supposed to use same factory charde that the old held rule of using 80 percent of R12 charge. We are finding that the systems are using the same amount of R134a as they did R12.
nothing wrong with A6 compressors as they are rock solid performers. I used one for an air compressor for my air ride for 2 1/2 yrs before clutch gave up the ghost.
I now use a York 906.
As for my preference in mocking my own parts up I like using the Sanden compressors. Most handle R134a with ease and they are fairly cheap.
I have a fella who has a 632 BBC and the mounts his "kit" came with wont work so we are building our own.
His race car will have cold air and run 5's!

[BonzoHansen]

I've been reading along, trying to garner some knowledge. For GMs with serp setups that use R4s (like 3rd gen f-bodies), is there any alternative, given packaging constraints?

[MonzaRacer]

Just remeber that R4s are junk the newer R series are like a r14 or r17 or something Id have to look it up.
its still a pos. I like making a bracket that bolts in same place as R4 compressor and mod up a Sanden compressor. See most of the Sandens use 4 bots that go through the body and it could be done very easy. If you can take the brackets off or source a different set I can probably work up a Sanden conversion for not a lot and get you a part number for the compressor if not source one for you.
Lee Abel
AFTERMARKET PERFORMANCE
ps I WOULD ALSO NEED YOUR OLD COMPRESSOR OR A MOUNTABLE CORE