Didn't see this one coming. GM in talks to buy Chrysler?

[TonyL]

YARLY.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17186447/

BREAKING NEWS

DETROIT - General Motors Corp. is in talks to buy the Chrysler Group in its entirety, Automotive News reported Friday, citing unnamed sources in Germany and the United States.
The automotive trade publication reported on its Web site that high-level talks were talking place between GM and Chrysler Group parent DaimlerChrysler AG.
The potential deal between the two automakers could go beyond cooperation on joint development of a large sport utility vehicle, the magazine said.



A General Motors Corp. spokesman said the company routinely has discussions with other automakers but declined to comment on the Automotive News report.

[BADVELLE]

Like GM needs anymore problems!! I guess since Ford can't afford to buy them, they don't want Toyota to buy them, so they must bite the bullet. Heck, this puts Lutz back into hog heaven, right!

[Gonzostyle]

Interesting, the article in Automotive News about this ends with:

"Analysts say the real stumbling block is the roughly $23.6 Billion in unfunded pensions and health care liabilities for retirees that any buyer would want to financed in full"

Think it will happen......not likely

-Jeremie

[High Plains Mopars]

Nahh, GM has plenty of its own troubles. If anyone would buy it, I'd bet it to be an Asian manufacturer, not GM.

[Damn True]

I saw in the NYT this morning that Daimler is seriously looking to offload Chrysler.

Bye bye Dr. Z.

[BADVELLE]

I saw in the NYT this morning that Daimler is seriously looking to offload Chrysler.

Bye bye Dr. Z.

Dr. Z is the smart one, keep the high dollar company, pawn off the one that you have screwed up since you "merged" back in 1998!

[MonzaRacer]

Actually none of the asian companies want to be asociated with a German company. This is one reason why Mitsu divest them selves of working with DaimlierChrysler. The had to provide for certain contracts like providing engines but the partnership disolved as soon as Daimlier signed on.
I ask my uncle who worked for Cummins and talked with Dodge a lot. He said that the asians companies(all of them) dont want to touch a German company.
[political/history lesson snipped]
The Japan of then wanted to expand as they have ony the little island. They just had a bad way of trying to expand. Now they just make a lot of money and buy everything.
So far Chryco is making money and not having as many problems as the other companies, Most forget how large GM actually is worldwide.
Domestic car makers in America are having a lot of problems because of overadventurous union contracts.
Honestly I have a friend who works for one of the American companies and makes full benifits and for a simple job of screwing in seven bolts he takes home the wonderful sume of $89k a year.
He has no college education and is a great guy and has been a great worker but come on I know folks that amount of cash for a simple line job that if he had to put seven bolts in around here in southern Indiana for a furniture company and make about half that.
He honeslty doesnt feel that the job is that hard or dangeous and is probably worth a third to half of what he makes. ALL of his raises come from the union contract not his work record or anything. He works with people who wouldnt have a job outside of that factory if it wasnt for the union. Dont get me wrong they do need good pay but its out of control honestly. I have a geat uncle who got dang near as good of pay working for International Harvester way back when they folded mainly because of unions and thier greed. My uncle said they had a fella working in the plant when it folded pushing a broom for $65k a year plus benifits and that was way back in what the 80's or 90's.
People come in who couldnt pass a piss test, and caused lots of trouble who kept jobs and got raises and promotions because of that union.
DONT GET ME WRONG some unions are good, but some are out of control.
Just some thoughts.
You also have to look at some of the European GM operations that Daimlier may want possibly.

[shmoov69]

They (unions) have screwed the US auto makers, PERIOD! Don't get me wrong, the exec's are extremely greedy also. But at least their knowledege (or knees) got them there, not someone else. They (unions) have protected people that should be unemployed and gave them incentive to be POS's and do crap work by better contracts. And........&$*#)#!! Nevermind, I am starting to get riled up!
Have a good day! : )

[Damn True]

Can you imagine how irate the hard-core mopar guys will be if their beloved company is bought out by THE EVIL EMPIRE (GM)?

[ProTouring442]

the quote removed too


"I realize that this may deviate into the realm of politics, and therefore I understand that this post may be removed..."

**Sorry Bill....way too political. Hope you understand. Let's keep it on topic, folks. ~ trapin**

[High Plains Mopars]

...not only that, but since when do WW2 geopolitics have anything to do with modern business mergers and acquisitions? It is all about the money now.

[ProTouring442]

"I realize that this may deviate into the realm of politics, and therefore I understand that this post may be removed..."

**Sorry Bill....way too political. Hope you understand. Let's keep it on topic, folks. ~ trapin**

No problem, though it might have been nice to have deleted the post that brought the response about as it too ventured into the realm of politics.

Bill

done -- derek

[SHANE 73Z]

I understand how it would seem that the unions are driving these companies out of business. Personally I dont see it that way. If the unions were driving these companies out of business, why didnt they go under long ago?

I see it as simple short sighted product offerings. The big 3 put all their eggs in the Light truck, SUV basket and let the rest of their line-ups flounder. The big 3 were not in this boat through the 80s-90s because people could afford the expenses associated.

Now that the consumer base cant support it, the Big 3 are crying poor mouth because as people look to replace their 8 mpg whatever, the manufacturer they are loyal to doesnt offer a desireable lesser model.

I agree that some unions and the example sited above are out of hand, but if that union wasnt in place, given the societal/capitalist climate we would all be working for minimum wage with no benefits.

Shane

[Damn True]

[political/history snipped]

That said, full pay & bennies for people that havent produced in 20 years does not a good business model make.

[Bob Johnson]

let's face it. Unions are in the dues collecting business. If they trained better employees that were worth the extra money, then it wouldn't be a problem. But to have a pipe fitter sitting on his duff for 7 1/2 out of 8 hours screwing a few threaded pipes together, while the guy injecting oxygen thru the pipes in a furnace watches him (and could easily do it himself) defy's common sense. Unions that are more concerned with employee count and resulting dues than in making their employer more profitabe, will fail in the long run. Look at Delta..Pilots making way into 6 figures/yr and only worked 10 or so hrs./week..Unions and poor management have run it down the drain. They will follow Eastern down the tube. It used to be a joke to fly Airtran..it isn't anymore..Delta and their worn out junk airplanes and their union personnel are the joke now.

[72nova]

I agree and disagree. I am a union electrician and we talk about this all the time. I agree that there is dead weight in the labor force, but I don't think that is what got us to where we are today. These car companies are getting there parts made in Mexico, China, etc.,where they used to be made by smaller companies in the U.S.
When you close these small companies you have more workers making less money. the car maker gets the parts cheaper,which means the car was made for less money than it was before, but they still charge the same or more for the car. With more people making less money they can't afford the cars anymore. To me it seems that when these car companies started getting parts made elsewhere and putting the small companies out of business, they sarted getting in financial trouble. I know there is more to it than that, but thats my .02 worth.

[Jim Nilsen]

Robots are great, but I have never seen one at the DOT getting a license or at the dealer buying a car!

[Bob Johnson]

I agree and disagree. I am a union electrician and we talk about this all the time. I agree that there is dead weight in the labor force, but I don't think that is what got us to where we are today. These car companies are getting there parts made in Mexico, China, etc.,where they used to be made by smaller companies in the U.S.
When you close these small companies you have more workers making less money. the car maker gets the parts cheaper,which means the car was made for less money than it was before, but they still charge the same or more for the car. With more people making less money they can't afford the cars anymore. To me it seems that when these car companies started getting parts made elsewhere and putting the small companies out of business, they sarted getting in financial trouble. I know there is more to it than that, but thats my .02 worth.
The problem is now that Ford, GM and Chrysler aren't competing against each other as in the past, they are competing with the likes of Toyota, Nissan, Honda, VW etc. Management and the unions should have adressed this fact years ago and made themselves more lean and effecient. Granted management is guilty of burying their head in the sand and ignoring the inevitable, but the unions had a big hand in thwarting the necessary changes. If they didn't outsource their parts, they surely wouldn't be competitive. They already lose money on each and every car, so they surely couldn't compete with higher cost. The more integrated the union manufacturer, the more they lose. Chrysler divested themselves of more of their subsidiary manufacturing years ago and were in better shape to compete without the extra burden of non competitive parts manufacturing. People are spending way more than they have in the past, and the mean income is up not down. Unions need to start adding value for their dues (ie education, training, regulating etc), not encumber the manufacturer and alienate the workforce. You ask anyone who runs a business and they will tell you the main problem is finding good help..This isn't the depression when you couldn't find a job. There are plenty of them out there. Find me one business owner that's pro union, and I'll show you a million that aren't.

[Bob Johnson]

Robots are great, but I have never seen one at the DOT getting a license or at the dealer buying a car!
Yeah I agree with that but on the other side of the coin a robot doesn't lie, cheat, steal, layout, forget, have bad days, inconsistent, get sick, etc. I think robots have proven their worth. They aren't cheap on the front end but they make up for it in the long haul. I don't think it's a secret that processes handled by robots have way less problems than one done by humans. That's just one of the reasons the Japanese are making cars with less problems.

[budpins]

I'm a pro-union manager. I don't have much time to get in an arguement but look at these points. Through the Union I:
Have good healthcare at cheap rates for my office employeees too;
Know what my competition is charging;
Can find a replacement or additional men at a moments notice.

The arguement always comes up that Unions are the cause of all the ills in todays economic society. Think about this, if your guys don't work like you want them to, them the real problem is your management style. Employees will only do what you want them to. If you treat them like fools, they will behave like fools. By the way, the "you" is understood, not directed at anyone.

Jason

[Damn True]

The fool is the man who puts the negotiation for his compensation package in the hands of someone who care's not a whit about him.

[Bob Johnson]

I'm a pro-union manager. I don't have much time to get in an arguement but look at these points. Through the Union I:
Have good healthcare at cheap rates for my office employeees too;
Know what my competition is charging;
Can find a replacement or additional men at a moments notice.

The arguement always comes up that Unions are the cause of all the ills in todays economic society. Think about this, if your guys don't work like you want them to, them the real problem is your management style. Employees will only do what you want them to. If you treat them like fools, they will behave like fools. By the way, the "you" is understood, not directed at anyone.

Jason
I don't know anyone that accuses unions of being responsible for ALL of the economy's ills. I do think that they have contributed to the ills of the Steel, Automotive, Transportation etc Industries. Employees will only do what you want them to do???? If your guys don't work like you want them to, then the real problem is your management style? Maybe in the your union world, but not in the real world where most of us exist.

[Damn True]

I don't know anyone that accuses unions of being responsible for ALL of the economy's ills. I do think that they have contributed to the ills of the Steel, Automotive, Transportation etc Industries. Employees will only do what you want them to do???? If your guys don't work like you want them to, then the real problem is your management style? Maybe in the your union world, but not in the real world where most of us exist.

Typical of the Marxist/Socialist meme that permeates Unions.
Blame everything on the gentry and the proletariat can do no wrong.

I'd submit though, that the enviro-wacko's had as much influence on the death of the American Steel Industry as did their kindred in the Unions.

[Bill Howell]

I'm a pro-union manager. I don't have much time to get in an arguement but look at these points. Through the Union I:
Have good healthcare at cheap rates for my office employeees too;
Know what my competition is charging;
Can find a replacement or additional men at a moments notice.

The arguement always comes up that Unions are the cause of all the ills in todays economic society. Think about this, if your guys don't work like you want them to, them the real problem is your management style. Employees will only do what you want them to. If you treat them like fools, they will behave like fools. By the way, the "you" is understood, not directed at anyone.

Jason

I am not sure I follow your logic here. The benefits you list have nothing to do with saving anyone any money. As a end user of a product, or a buyer of goods, the fact that you get cheap insurance, or charge a flat rate does little to make me want to buy your goods. Sure, you can get additional men by calling the union hall, but we all know that is just another warm body in alot of cases, not a highly qualified, skilled worker. Is he too more worried about his benefit package than my product. No need answering that, we all already know the answer.
Sorry, but I live in the real world, and have managed more people than you have, I would be willing to bet. Bottom line is a good insurance package does not guarantee me a good employee or a better product. Your arguement for unions are the very problem with unions IMO. Keep demanding benefits, higher wages, etc. if you like, but don't be suprised when even more jobs go across the pond or South. My only experiences with a union was being a Teamster in the late 70s/early 80s, then at the Post Office in the early 80s. In both cases, the unions were more about recruiting new members, and collecting dues. Improving work conditions or really getting us anything was second on their priority list. You can strike but they still want their dues. I got to agree with Damn True's post, I will negotiate my own compensation thank you.
:offtopic:

[Damn True]

Further food for thought:

BMW and Daimler/Benz both produce far fewer units at much lower average margin compared to GM/FoMoCo/Mopar and yet they continue to be very profitable.

Why?

Well the long answer would take more bandwidth than Larry can afford but to grossly simplify it:
Their labor costs are a tiny fraction of their US competition. Labor accounts for the largest single expense of any company (real estate is second). The US automakers are saddled with labor costs that are as high if not higher than other auto makers TOTAL expense lines. GM spends 59% of it's revenue on labor costs alone. Their per hours labor costs are 2.6 times the US average. Absurd.

Dig this:
http://nospeedbumps.com/?p=606



Sociopolitical stuff aside, IF this were to go down, do you think this would be a net benefit or detriment to GM?

IMO GM has enough problems differentiating the brand identity of their various marques. The last thing they need is to attempt to integrate another disparate culture and brand.

[TonyL]

IMO GM has enough problems differentiating the brand identity of their various marques. The last thing they need is to attempt to integrate another disparate culture and brand.

Agreed. This is bad for everyone involved. GM doesn't need anther brand to dilude its already diluded offerings.

[ProTouring442]

Geez... and my post got nixed for its' political content! :rolleyes:

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "Inamorata"
www.FQuick.com/ProTouring442

[budpins]

All I was trying to say is: Blaming a problem or situation on a cause or process that is not going to change immediately is not the answer. Many companies succeed within constraints that are, or were, deemed impossible to deal with. It just seems like victimitis to me.

I never did try to say all Union is good just as I hope no one says all Union is bad. Some of you may have had bad experiences with Unions, I'm sorry to hear that. I have trying times myself, but the difference I try to make everyday is to find what motivates my people. If you extrapolate the thinking of Unionism = laziness and poor shareholder value; what is the arguement for all the Non-Union companies that fail, with their windfall of low employment costs?

I'm just trying to say, have an open mind. Sometimes the most obvious solution to a problem is only a symptom.

P.S. I don't think any idea of a merger makes sense between those two. Just wonder what would have happened if Walter Demming, http://www.deming.org/theman/articles/articles_threecareers01.html, would have been hired by US companies instead of going to Japan to work with Toyota and Sony.

[Bob Johnson]

Typical of the Marxist/Socialist meme that permeates Unions.
Blame everything on the gentry and the proletariat can do no wrong.

I'd submit though, that the enviro-wacko's had as much influence on the death of the American Steel Industry as did their kindred in the Unions.
I had you all wrong...I would have bet big money that you were one of those enviro wackos...sorry..my early impressions of you were all wrong..I just thought I was pretty good at assessing an individuals traits...

[Bob Johnson]

All I was trying to say is: Blaming a problem or situation on a cause or process that is not going to change immediately is not the answer. Many companies succeed within constraints that are, or were, deemed impossible to deal with. It just seems like victimitis to me.

I never did try to say all Union is good just as I hope no one says all Union is bad. Some of you may have had bad experiences with Unions, I'm sorry to hear that. I have trying times myself, but the difference I try to make everyday is to find what motivates my people. If you extrapolate the thinking of Unionism = laziness and poor shareholder value; what is the arguement for all the Non-Union companies that fail, with their windfall of low employment costs?

I'm just trying to say, have an open mind. Sometimes the most obvious solution to a problem is only a symptom.

P.S. I don't think any idea of a merger makes sense between those two. Just wonder what would have happened if Walter Demming, http://www.deming.org/theman/articles/articles_threecareers01.html, would have been hired by US companies instead of going to Japan to work with Toyota and Sony.
all you need to do is open your own business. For starters go to New York, Chicago, Vegas etc and try to carry a booth and your products in there to exhibit. just try and plug in your electricity and see what the union boys say. I don't know how I've been able to do this all my life without a union electrician to do it for me. It's a wonder I've not been electrocuted. By the time you get thru dealing with the union bull shi*, I think you will change your tune. Very few businesses in the world could remain profitable with the pay/benefit package the unions have shoved down the automakers collective throats. I was a teamster in the 60's and 70's. They never taught me squat. I saw no benefit whatsoever that they offered for the company side of the equation.

[speedster]

The big problem with the unions is not the people that make them up, it is the people that "administer" them. It is basically a tax on all wages using the "class action/Amway/they are out to get you" mentality to enlist workers in their causes. They are looking for numbers, not people. They know how to dangle a carrot. These administrators have made a very lucrative profession using OPM - other people's money.

There was a time and place for them at the turn of the century, but in each industry they are involved in, the workers these administrators "represent", end of becoming priced beyond what the market can bear and eventually they will lose their jobs to competition. You might not like it, but that is how free enterprise works. Short term gains (or greed) usually ruin long term profits.

[BADVELLE]

I'm a pro-union manager. I don't have much time to get in an arguement but look at these points. Through the Union I:
Have good healthcare at cheap rates for my office employeees too;
Know what my competition is charging;
Can find a replacement or additional men at a moments notice.

The arguement always comes up that Unions are the cause of all the ills in todays economic society. Think about this, if your guys don't work like you want them to, them the real problem is your management style. Employees will only do what you want them to. If you treat them like fools, they will behave like fools. By the way, the "you" is understood, not directed at anyone.

Jason

Your right, that is a management issue, if the employee is not producing, can him/her, the job should not be protected!

[Damn True]

I had you all wrong...I would have bet big money that you were one of those enviro wackos...sorry..my early impressions of you were all wrong..I just thought I was pretty good at assessing an individuals traits...

My zip code is in CA but that does not mean I stand with the majority in this state. My wife likes to tell her friends that I am so conservative that I make Ronald Reagan look like Jane Fonda.

[Damn True]

Let's take a look at industries in which the overwhelming majority of employees are Union.

Airlines
Auto Manufacturing
Rail/Public Transit
Disposal
Steel
Hospitals
Public Education

[trapin]

If you'll allow a GM guy to chime in here....

Personally (and the vibe around the Tech Center) this is a bad proposition and we are all hoping and praying that it does not happen. Nobody here WANTS Chrysler. They have nothing to offer our portfolio and we would only be taking on more Legacy Costs.

For the record....I am Salaried Union here at GM. 1 of only about 106 of us that do Math Surface Development for GM. I can't speak for the blue collar union here (Local 160) but the department I work in is full of the hardest working people in the industry. We routinely work Sunday's and holidays and everyone takes their jobs very seriously. We are held in high regard here at General Motors.

......so not all Unions are bad. But I agree......most are.

[Damn True]

I think it's a ruse to put the squeeze on the UAW. Daimler Chrysler does not enjoy the same concessions that GM and FoMoCo do. I think they are just trying to get the same labor deal that the other two have.

[BADVELLE]

If you'll allow a GM guy to chime in here....

Personally (and the vibe around the Tech Center) this is a bad proposition and we are all hoping and praying that it does not happen. Nobody here WANTS Chrysler. They have nothing to offer our portfolio and we would only be taking on more Legacy Costs.

For the record....I am Salaried Union here at GM. 1 of only about 106 of us that do Math Surface Development for GM. I can't speak for the blue collar union here (Local 160) but the department I work in is full of the hardest working people in the industry. We routinely work Sunday's and holidays and everyone takes their jobs very seriously. We are held in high regard here at General Motors.

......so not all Unions are bad. But I agree......most are.

I don't disagree with the Legacy cost, however, I would say that Chrysler has a lot to offer the GM portfolio. Take a look at the Chrysler Design in the past 10 years, GM can learn something. Lastly, when I can't go into a plant, be it GM, Ford, DMC or supplier (which I worked in) and touch a part, let alone pick one up b/c some person worried about losing a job, something is wrong with this picture. Not only do I NOT want their job, but you could not pay me enough to stand/sit in the same place all day long on an assembly line, day in, day out, doing the same thing over and over and over and over and over again! I have been written up in the past, a grievance if you will for what I just spoke about! If someone is worried about their job that much, then seperate yourself from the crowd, learn a trade, get an education, something that makes you different from the person smoking cig's on break with you!

[shmoov69]

Let's take a look at industries in which the overwhelming majority of employees are Union.

Airlines
Auto Manufacturing
Rail/Public Transit
Disposal
Steel
Hospitals
Public Education
Umm, leagalized mafia?!?? Overpriced, poor quality, worthless attitude workers, the "I control you" attitude by the workers? Lets see, what else.........nevermind, don't want to step on more toes than I already have. The unions are good in theory, but not so much in reality. Could be, but are not (usually). But like I said, management is usually greedy also.
Kinda like politicians, if we were consistantly bombarded with gaining financially, to do some ill to others, we would prolly cave after time also. We are human after all.

"And it repented the LORD that he had made man"

[CamaroAJ]

what about this? http://www.cnn.com/2007/BUSINESS/02/19/daimlerchrysler.reut/index.html Hyundai Hemi?

[Samckitt]

How far does it have to go / how long does it go on before the CEO's of these companies in problem realize that sending work to Mexico, China, India & so on only looks good on paper & only works short term? Then what happens is there is no employees who can afford to buy the products because their American work force no longer exists & workers in the "cheap" countries can't afford to buy the product either. I blame it on the greedy CEO's & other big wigs in the companies. Some of these multi million dollar salaries & bonuses is crap. Pay the employees that make the product, don't let the big wigs decide what their bonuses should be.

[Bob Johnson]

Outsourcing manufacturing to other countries is the only way companies can stay competitive in the short or long haul. This is a global economy nowdays. If some other country can do it cheaper than you can and make as good or better product, if you want to remain in business, you better outsource it because your competition is surely going to do so. Consumers want the best product at the cheapest price. If you can't provide it, then you go out of business.
Times they are a changing. Our economy has changed it's focus many times in the past and it will in the future. Let's face it, we've priced ourselves out of the manufacturing game. We lose more and more to foreign countries that can do it cheaper and as good. We've gotten fat, lazy, and spoiled. We have also got all the environmental issues that add to our cost on the manufacturing side. Do you think China gives a hoot about how much polution a smokestack is kicking out? Do you think they care about someone getting protected from management working them too many hours or in dangerous working conditions. All the regulations and restrictions we have put on manufacturing plus the labor cost have made it prohibitive for us to last long haul in this game unless it's a high tech high profit industry. The free enterprise system will work thru this and change our focus to other ways of producing jobs and income.

[EFI69Cam]

Outsourcing manufacturing to other countries is the only way companies can stay competitive in the short or long haul. This is a global economy nowdays. If some other country can do it cheaper than you can and make as good or better product, if you want to remain in business, you better outsource it because your competition is surely going to do so. Consumers want the best product at the cheapest price. If you can't provide it, then you go out of business.
Times they are a changing. Our economy has changed it's focus many times in the past and it will in the future. Let's face it, we've priced ourselves out of the manufacturing game. We lose more and more to foreign countries that can do it cheaper and as good. We've gotten fat, lazy, and spoiled. We have also got all the environmental issues that add to our cost on the manufacturing side. Do you think China gives a hoot about how much polution a smokestack is kicking out? Do you think they care about someone getting protected from management working them too many hours or in dangerous working conditions. All the regulations and restrictions we have put on manufacturing plus the labor cost have made it prohibitive for us to last long haul in this game unless it's a high tech high profit industry. The free enterprise system will work thru this and change our focus to other ways of producing jobs and income.


China does not care about the evironmental impact, and that is the reason why we should not buy their cheap *****. We will pay for it eventually.

[High Plains Mopars]

Frankley, if I was a GM enthusiast, I'd be afraid that Toyota or Honda might try to buy it. After all, Bob Lutz was at Chrysler and was a major player in negotiating a "merger of equals" then took the cash and bailed out.

Who's in charge over at GM now...?

[paul67]

Have watched a progam over here in the UK about meth, go with me here, the reason that the asian market is so productive as MOST of the workers are on on METH, SPEED and other drugs, and get this is issued buy by the OWNERS to get production up, they are working in car plants , ship building etc , some 2-3day straight , more hrs more pay, it was invented over 100hrs ago , issused in WW2 to the japannise army, including kamakizi pilots to get them syked up before the mission, so if you want a level plainning field in the manufactory industry better drop the drug test.:smoke: :seizure:

[aonghus]

Have watched a progam over here in the UK about meth, go with me here, the reason that the asian market is so productive as MOST of the workers are on on METH, SPEED and other drugs, and get this is issued buy by the OWNERS to get production up, they are working in car plants , ship building etc , some 2-3day straight , more hrs more pay, it was invented over 100hrs ago , issused in WW2 to the japannise army, including kamakizi pilots to get them syked up before the mission, so if you want a level plainning field in the manufactory industry better drop the drug test.:smoke: :seizure:

What you're omitting, is the differential of quality between products produced in China and the United States. Disregarding 'jappannise' production methods and market share in the United States, countries like China (that would allow the use of narcotics by workers, or perhaps just overlook, or hell, be completley uncapable of regulating worker(s) conditions. Couple of issues of Car & Driver ago, I read a blurb mentioning the inevitablitily of China exporting cars to the United States in the next 5-7 years. I read in Road & Track last year that there simply isnt a workforce of equal skillsets currently availble in China. Sure they have people, sure they have money, but can they produce a car that will actually run for the length of its warranty? I doubt it.

[EFI69Cam]

What you're omitting, is the differential of quality between products produced in China and the United States. Disregarding 'jappannise' production methods and market share in the United States, countries like China (that would allow the use of narcotics by workers, or perhaps just overlook, or hell, be completley uncapable of regulating worker(s) conditions. Couple of issues of Car & Driver ago, I read a blurb mentioning the inevitablitily of China exporting cars to the United States in the next 5-7 years. I read in Road & Track last year that there simply isnt a workforce of equal skillsets currently availble in China. Sure they have people, sure they have money, but can they produce a car that will actually run for the length of its warranty? I doubt it.

The Japanese production methods were taught to them by an American.

[Bob Johnson]

you probably said the same thing about the Japanese in the 60's..now look at that cheap shi*. We had better take the Chinese seriously. They are going to be a superpower(both financially and militarily) and it ain't gonna be long. Their products will get better and better. It won't take them as long as it did the Japanese or Koreans.

[go-fish]

Who's gonna buy a Chery when they come to the states?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chery
They're coming............maybe. GM is suing because it sounds like and resembles "Chevy".

[Damn True]

you probably said the same thing about the Japanese in the 60's..now look at that cheap shi*. We had better take the Chinese seriously. They are going to be a superpower(both financially and militarily) and it ain't gonna be long. Their products will get better and better. It won't take them as long as it did the Japanese or Koreans.

Well right now they can't manufacture their way out of a wet paper sack w/o constant oversight. But when they figure it out there is a chance that they could be quite the economic force. However, there are already currents within the populace that may prevent it. Apparently the socialistic mores are hard to break.

[Bob Johnson]

The Japanese production methods were taught to them by an American.
an American taught them manufacturing 101...since then they have earned their PHD.

[EFI69Cam]

an American taught them manufacturing 101...since then they have earned their PHD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming

It would appear they had his PHD program early on.

American business would do well to follow his advice.

[jeffandre]

you probably said the same thing about the Japanese in the 60's..now look at that cheap shi*. We had better take the Chinese seriously. They are going to be a superpower(both financially and militarily) and it ain't gonna be long. Their products will get better and better. It won't take them as long as it did the Japanese or Koreans.

The Chinese will rule the world that our children/grandchildren live in. Those with the foresight and means would do well to position their portfolios to include Asian funds, especially in China, at some point in the not too distant future.

[Jim Nilsen]

An engineer that came back from China after going there on business said that the time frame is around 2025 at the latest for them to have more control in our economy than we do and they will make us go broke by owning us. That is what one of the people who he stayed with had told him.

Something to think about?

[BADVELLE]

The Chinese will rule the world that our children/grandchildren live in. Those with the foresight and means would do well to position their portfolios to include Asian funds, especially in China, at some point in the not too distant future.

You may be right, did you happen to see what the Chinese Market did to the DOW this week!! :jawdrop:

The thing I don't understand when you look at the outsourcing, they have **** for quality in China, just look at the automobiles, why don't you think they have ever had any action in the country with their auto manufacturing. Now I see wher Chrysler is working with one of their auto companies regarding selling one of their small cars in the US market, trying to compete with the small Chevy and Toyota (Prius) cars. We (our culture/people) will never learn, business revolves around money, the ole might dollar, nothing else, don't let anyone ever tell you any different!

[ProTouring442]

We (our culture/people) will never learn, business revolves around money, the ole might dollar, nothing else, don't let anyone ever tell you any different!


The problem here is us, not U.S. We all like to blame big business, but then we do exactly as they do, just on a smaller scale. Oddly, we then turn around and blame them for trying to keep up with our buying habits! We claim we don’t like out sourcing. We claim we don’t like it when a company closes its American plants to open new plants in Mexico. We claim we think American companies are somehow wrong for sending their manufacturing to some over seas location just to “make a few more bucks.” Collectively, Americans love to lodge all of these complaints, then we turn around and buy the imported product because “it’s a much better value,” otherwise known as “cheaper” so that we can pocket the difference. Hmmm, seems to me that this is exactly what the companies are doing. As an example, we say we want strict environmental controls on “big business” then buy products either built in Japan or made by Japanese companies. Japan, as you may not know kills more whales, dolphins, and elephants than any other country in the world. They also dump most of their garbage in the ocean! I’m not picking on Japan per se, I just happen to know this about them. If we want to turn this trend around, then we need to become truly educated consumers, and make our purchasing decisions on more information than the usual price/quality metric.

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
’72 442 “Inamorata”
www.FQuick.com/ProTouring442