for handling, leaf springs, 3 link, 4 link???

[CamaroJesse]

people say that you can handle quite well with upgraded leaf spring suspension but if leafs are so good why do people spend the big bucks on the 3 and 4 link set ups? if i really wanted my car to out handle other cars on the road could i retain my leaf set up or would i wanna go the other route?

thanks
Jesse

[astroracer]

This is ALWAYS a huge debate... You will get answers from all aspects and for all reasons. What you really want to ask is what are YOU willing to spend, what is your ultimate goal and how much work do you want to do to get there.
A leaf spring suspension is a darn good suspension when set up with a few other performance items like good bushings, shocks and swaybars. For a street car that sees everyday road driving there is really no better way to go. Maintenance, adjustability and road feel are all important aspects on a street car and leafs, with a few mods, can accomplish all three very well. And they can do ALL of this without tearing up the car for new suspension locations and swing arm clearances. A well set-up leaf spring car WILL perform just as well as one of the "high-tech" race car suspensions without all of the hassles of installing, adjusting and maintaining... What the leaf spring suspension doesn't have is "hype", plain and simple.
I did LOT of research before I decided to go with leaf springs on my Bad Ast project. Leaf springs made sense for a simple, adjustable suspension that doesn't induce roll bind, can handle ANY type of road condition and isn't a high maintenance race car suspension.
The decision is up to you, of course, but there is no real reason to change anything on a street car that will never see perfect road racing conditions and, ultimately, will never see the "ragged edge" that race cars see every day. Rebuild the stock suspension with polygraphite bushings, put on some good adjustable shocks and a good bar and drive it... It will handle very well and won't jar your teeth out on every bump or pothole...
Mark

[OneslowZ28]

I will agree with Astoracer, depending on your budget stick with what is simple, tried and trued. Leafsprings will always be the simplist setup. In my case i have no sense of what is simple so im probably going to be installing Lateral Dynamics 3 link setup in my 78 camaro. Right now we are trying to figure out if it will fit the later style 2nd gen camaros. If you have mechanical knowledge, time, and a lot of money go exotic, but if you lack any of those stick with what works and you will have a car that you can enjoy a lot sooner than most of us. Good luck on any route you choose!

[High Plains Mopars]

What are your goals and budget? What do you want to acheive, even if it is just the "wow" factor of having people look under you car and drop their jaw.

I'll agree with the two above. Leafs can be made to perform very well. The problem with leaf springs is adjustability and interchangability. There are only a few fixed mounting points for leafs. Once these are set, your basically done. For a competition car, it is not practical to carry around 10 sets of leaf springs that are each 50# in rate apart from each other, not to mention changing them is a somewhat time consuming task.

Compare that to a coil over set up that can have a great deal of adjustments and the ability to quickly and easily change springs rates, and you can see why coil overs have such a broad appeal. However, unless you are putting your car into a performance application where the ability to tune and adjust the suspension to varying tracks and conditions is a requirement and lighter weight a must, the coil overs are really nothing more than eye candy and are akin to taking a bazooka to a knife fight. They will both kill you dead. But if you like the look and appeal, then these are awesome set ups. Just expect to pay some bucks or spend some time fabricating and tuning to get it all sorting out and working correctly.

[zuess4u]

people say that you can handle quite well with upgraded leaf spring suspension but if leafs are so good why do people spend the big bucks on the 3 and 4 link set ups? if i really wanted my car to out handle other cars on the road could i retain my leaf set up or would i wanna go the other route?

thanks
Jesse

Jesse, the three members that answered your question are correct.
And have very good points. I would read through them again.

Reading your question though, you state " Out handle other cars on the road "....

If your not racing to make money, then you dont need to spend ALOT of money.....And everyone has their own defenition of ALOT.

Im not sure if your carving canyons or going straight, but there are many ways to beat the everyday guy on the street without spending top dollar.

Anyway here is my two cents. Write down your objectives for your car. Lets stick with handling for now. If your car is drivable now, then you have a baseline to start from. Find somewhere you can time your car, corners or straght. Push the car until it scares you, or you feel out of control.

Take your best times and log them down. Now you have a baseline. You also have something you can describe to any vendor or suspension guru. This will help them direct you in the right direction.
Dont forget to take mesurments of the track/road you do this on. The more information the better.

As far as your rear suspension question, I would upgrade the springs, if their stock, to around 200lbs or 225lbs, dont use lowering blocks if you can help it, if you have to, dont worry TOO much about it. But instead of blocks bring your car with the new springs installed to a place that can de-arch them to your desired ride height.

Look into the Watts link designed by JIM FAY...economical and effective. Im sure there are others too.

After you collected your info get on the phone with some of these guys:

Marcus from SCandC
Jim Fay from Jimfays2
David Pozzi from N Cali
Kyle from DSE.............and so on. There are guys on here too that Im forgetting to mention, that have real race seat time, that can give you vital info as well.

INFO+RESEARCH+OBJECTIVE+$$$$= your goal...lol good luck, and keep us updated.:drive2:

[CamaroJesse]

well, i am on a budget. if the 3 and 4 links were really that worth it i would of saved up. im not looing to wow people when they look under the car. actually i think itd be pretty cool to wow people by having an excellent handling car with leafs still. i wont be doing any competion racing. ill probably got to the raod course once or twice a year. there seems to be alot of people doubting that my car willhandle. these people drive evo's and s2000's. (guys from work). id really like to be able to handle as good as them if not better. so it looks like ill go with leafs. should i go global west? DSE? Hotchkis?

and while im at it, i cant afford coil over front suspenison, so what springs and shocks should i run? i have the ATS AFX tall spindles already. they drop the car about an inch. i dont know what type of drop spring to get. i dont want it to be too high or too low. and illbe doing an adjustable sway bar and a close ratio steering box. how well should this car handle? eve tho im not running coil overs?

thanks
Jesse

[JMarsa]

There's few actual measured results to judge by.

But...There are so many cars here to look to.

Take a look at the Autocross From Hell thread. I think there's a members car or two to look at.

--JMarsa

[CamaroJesse]

do u have the link to the autocross from hell thread?

[Roadrage David]

none of the above..... leaf springs 3 ore 4 links are only as good as the driver driving it!!!!!! the mecanicks involved building my car are heavely into transam raceing with a 68 camaro against the modern cars sutchs as the TVR tuscans ecetera on spa and le mans . he beats the crap out of those cars with leaf springs and ordenary cut coils and koni shocks no coil over system..... good new lowerd coils with koni,s and 2 ore 3 inch drop leaf springs and a performance suspention componens g mashine suspention is plenty for us amature drivers...most of the other stuf is for bragging rights

[JMarsa]

Sorry, I thought that was the name of it....

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22721


--JMarsa

[Damn True]

Another option to think about.

www.lateral-dynamics.com

Not easy to install, not cheap but probably the finest aftermarket rear suspension system on the market.

[Norm Peterson]

people say that you can handle quite well with upgraded leaf spring suspension but if leafs are so good why do people spend the big bucks on the 3 and 4 link set ups?Leaf springs involve a rather complex interaction between their vertical spring rate (which holds the car up, obviously) and roll stiffness (think of them as a rear sta-bar of unknown rate - in stealth clothing to boot). My guess is that few people really understand them enough to make a selection based on anything but particularly good (or bad) experiences. That takes time to come by.

Over time, interleaf friction tends to increase, which affects the ride quality. It's one thing to actually be comfortable with 250 lb/in rear wheel rates; quite another if a lot of friction damping is added to that. I'd take that to mean that there should be some occasional inspection and maintenance if a firmish ride is OK but you don't want to get beat up by it as things age.


if i really wanted my car to out handle other cars on the road could i retain my leaf set up or would i wanna go the other route?

thanks
JesseYou can retain that basic arrangement and do quite well (but don't expect to leave a seriously-driven Z06 in your dust). Good tires, wheels wide enough to properly support them (laterally), and a moderately stiffened suspension with quality shocks will get you to that level. In autocross terms, think "Street Prepared", rather than the far more heavily modified "Prepared" or "Modified" categories (where swapping in something like a 3- or 4-link would class you).

Having mentioned autocross already, I'll note that there is a 'Cuda here in Philly Region that runs very competitively in class (Street Mod) against much smaller and more modern stuff. Leaf springs and all.

Before I forget, "seat time" counts for more than nearly anything else. Meaning experience at driving that hard. On the street, most people don't corner at much past 0.3 lateral g, which isn't hard enough for you to feel the transient behavior (I think that starts becoming noticeable at 0.45g or so). Very, very few people ever drive at more than about 0.6 lateral g, including those whose cars are capable of ~50% more. Most folks don't even brake that hard very often, either.

Lastly, my advice for post-mod is to first find an autocross or two before hitting the open track. Any potentially unpleasant surprises are better dealt with in the autocross environment than on the street or at much higher speeds on a real road course, and it gives you a peek at what happens up near the limits of adhesion.


Norm

[CamaroJesse]

what leaf spring rates are good? and what springs and shocks should i use? i wont be doing coil overs in the front. i have the ats spindles so i need to figure what drop spring to go with and what shock. do i need the spring rates to match back and front? i dont mind a stiff ride. i want it to handle as best as i can while keeping leaf springs. i may get the fays 2 watts link as well and an adjustable front swaybar.

Thanks
Jesse

[Damn True]

Completely dependant on the corner weights on your car.

[Norm Peterson]

. . . do i need the spring rates to match back and front? i dont mind a stiff ride. i want it to handle as best as i can while keeping leaf springs. i may get the fays 2 watts link as well and an adjustable front swaybar.

Thanks
JesseWhen you "match" spring rates, you choose them such that you get a "flat ride" in the range of speeds that you drive. It's a frequency thing, and has been discussed on this site (don't have any links offhand). Then you adjust the handling balance with the sta-bar(s).

I'm thinking that with leaves providing some rear roll stiffness by themselves (separate from any rear bar) that even without a rear bar you'll end up with a slightly bigger/stiffer front bar than you would with a rear coil sprung arrangement that doesn't have a rear bar. But possibly smaller/softer than a rear coil-sprung car that does.

If you elect to add a separate lateral locating device such as the Watts link or a PHB, mount it such that its roll center definition agrees with the RC due to the leaves. Within an inch, if at all possible, and pay attention to the bushing combinations. PHB's and leaves have also been discussed here, and the general considerations (and most of the math) apply to the leaves/Watts link combination as well.


Norm

[High Plains Mopars]

When you "match" spring rates, you choose them such that you get a "flat ride" in the range of speeds that you drive. It's a frequency thing, and has been discussed on this site (don't have any links offhand). Then you adjust the handling balance with the sta-bar(s).


Unfortuantly this is about as good as it gets unless you find a similar car in weight distribution and match what they have done. You might also be able to search around here and/or speak to your parts manufacturers about recommendations.

When I was racing camaro stub based cars, our front spring rates varied from 600-1000 pounds that were only 9.5 tall. We weren't allowed drop spindles so we got the drop with springs. We tuned the under/oversteer with a variety of sway bars and mounting points. Our rear springs were 180-220 pounds with no sway bars. We also had very specific limits on front/rear and left/right bias that also influenced spring rates.

Shocks have to match your springs in that they have to be able to control the motion. Again this becoems very specific with your cars weights, your driving style and desired feel. Manufacturer recommendations can only give you a reasonable starting point.

[rockvillespeed]

one thing leafs are awful with is their very high unsprung weight.
the drop in unsprung weight going to a link-type setup is very significant, and shouldn't be overlooked if you race on rough tracks. (or live on rough roads)

[CamaroJesse]

im guessing im going to need a 2-3 inch drop in the rear. can i just go with the DSE drop springs and be fine? i was looking at the global west ones but they only drop it 1 1/4 i think.

thanks jesse

[astroracer]

Just some things to think about Jesse.
I lowered my truck 4 & 6. In the back I kept the stock leafs and added a Big Hellwig swaybar. The drop was done with shackles and hangers. All of the suspension bushings, front and rear, were replaced with polyurethane and I put on good shocks. Now, I know my truck isn't a 1st gen Camaro but, with the drop and the bushings, it is a slot car on the road. It handles tight with no body roll and romps through freeway entry ramps without a complaint from the tires or suspension. It DOES outhandle 90% of the cars on the road. I spent about $500 bucks doing the drop and really wouldn't change a thing. It is NOT a race truck, it gets driven on the streets.
What I am getting at here is you don't have to spend thousands of dollars to build a good handling street car. Talk to a spring shop about simply dearching your stock springs. If they are in good shape there is no reason to spend money on stuff you don't need. Like I said in my first post, the driving conditions (and laws) on the street, will NEVER let you push the car to it's full extent, but like my truck, it WILL handle very well and you don't have to spend your retirement money to get there.
If nothing else do this as a first step. Learn from it and then move forward if it doesn't meet your expectations...
Mark

[High Plains Mopars]

one thing leafs are awful with is their very high unsprung weight.
the drop in unsprung weight going to a link-type setup is very significant, and shouldn't be overlooked if you race on rough tracks. (or live on rough roads)


Yes, but this can be overcome by using fiberglass leafs and you can drop about 75% of a traditional leaf pack's weight while getting a more constant rate without dealing with the interleaf friction.

[DarkoNova]

Where can you get fiberglass springs? Is the spring rate the same for the different material? I.E., is a 175 lb steel spring the same as a 175 lb fiberglass?

Matt

[rockvillespeed]

vette brakes and products sells 'glass springs.
not recommended for drag racing though.
heard nothing but good about them.

[Damn True]

Hyperco makes a quality glass spring. Not too sure about their long term durability though.

[Norm Peterson]

Where can you get fiberglass springs? Is the spring rate the same for the different material? I.E., is a 175 lb steel spring the same as a 175 lb fiberglass?The quick answer is 'yes'. A fiberglass spring leaf is simply made wider and/or thicker than its steel spring counterpart in order to develop the same rate from its less-rigid material.

The longer answer is that even if they do have the same vertical spring rate, they won't be identical in all respects. Lateral bending and torsional stiffnesses will almost certainly differ even if the amount of arch is the same.


Norm

[RobM]

any opinions on these? http://www.speedwaymotors.com/p/4851,156_Composite-Leaf-Springs-bChevyandb.html

they look like a nice spring, think they could handle 500 hp on street tires?

[CarlC]

There's some composite leaf spring info on my website.

[c4racer]

I would not recommend simply de-arching a stock set of 35 year old springs. The springs in my 69 are effectively de-arched and sit somewhere between a DSE 2" and 3" drop spring. However, the spring rate of a mono Camaro spring does not match a well set-up front suspension. In my case that is a WD subframe with coil overs and *I think* 350 rate springs. Combined with poly everywhere and solid frame bushings plus a 6-point rear roll bar integrated into the subframe connectors this set-up is quite stiff. But the rear suspension is not well matched to the front. It could also be worn out shocks, but I get way too much bounce from the rear suspension.

Maybe if you are already starting with multi-leaf spring, or if it is newer than an original spring in a 35 year old car it could be appropriate to consider de-arching.

[David Pozzi]

You will need a front spring in the 720 range, and a rear leaf in the 175 to 275 range. Hotchkis leafs are 175, I believe some of the Global West leafs are stiffer, I think with a Big Block and wanting to open track your Camaro, you need them to be in the 250 to 275 range.

I would go with a good leaf system and get the car running and get some experience driving the car. You can always make upgrades later.

I think you will find the leafs to be adequate if you get good ones. Stock leafs are around 100 lbs, and they are way too soft for best handling. The Hotchkis leafs are good for street small blocks and limited open track probably too soft for a BB. We just upgraded my wife's 73 Camaro from Hotchkis leafs to Global West Cat5 leafs with spherical bearings in each end. I don't have the rate yet but they appear much stiffer than the Hotchkis.

At higher horsepower levels, a three link starts to look better and better, I think it puts the power down better. If you will have 600+ horsepower and have minitubs you will have a lot of horsepower and traction to generate a lot of loads on the springs.

You will be hurt by the extra front end weight of a big block, and how much front tire you can fit on your car. Rapid changes of direction like slaloms will be the toughest for you. Long sweepers won't be so bad to deal with.
David

[CamaroJesse]

im looking into the Cat 5 leafs from global west. the only thing im worried about is that they only lower the car 1 1/4. i need probably 2 or 3 inches lower than stock height. how can lower it more without affecting handling?

also, next year i will (hopefully) be doing a high horsepower turbo ls1 project in my camaro. am i going to want to ditch the leaf spring set up at that point becasue of all the power?

thanks
Jesse

[CamaroJesse]

also, if i were to get DSE leafs instead, what are the rates on those and how do they work out for people?

thanks
Jesse

[GMachineDartGT]

Our XV Motorsports 3 link rear works extremely well with our matched shocks/springs. It is super important that these rates are matched, it is the cornerstone of our products. It retains your solid axle, but allows good pinion adjustability. Also, the pinion angle barely changes under load, making for excellent traction. Due to the high quality shocks, the ride is pleasant too. Take a look on our site for detailed pictures. XVMotorsports.com