Damn near back to square one on the '68 camaro

[Matt]

The ls1 I was going to get fell through, and I'll only be getting about 7k back from what was stolen. 7k's not enough for intake manifold, headers, heads, tranny adapter kit, cheap big brakes, good wheels, seats, gauges, and some suspension bits.

The 377 I have I think will cost more to get it to run as well as an ls1, and will take less power. Right now all I have for the car is the 377, t-56, and currie 9in...and the car.

What would you guys do?

[LowBuckX]

Id give up and ship that 377 to a guy in Kent Ohio who would appreciate it very much. :candle:

[ViperBlue68]

I'll buy the rearend if u are sell it ? :fingersx:

[ProdigyCustoms]

377s can be some bad ombrey's. The big bore means they breath like crazy, and combined great beathing and short stroke make them RPM monsters. Givin a choice between the 2, I would rather the 377 anyway, it will easily make more power then the LS1. We did one clearing some shelves with junk too small 882 heads, a junk Herbert roller, an old victor and a 750 Holley and it went 11.40s in a Camaro, and 10.10 on a cheater kit. You can easily change heads later when more money comes in.

[dennis68]

Ordinarilly I agree with you Prodigy, not today. A cam/head LS1, properly tuned will spank the snot out of a well built 377 and provide better driveabuility.

What kind of trans adapter "kit" do you need?

You could peice together some C5 brakes F&R for about 500.00 with some careful shopping.

Seats and gauges you can do later, just run cheap autometers for now to monitor vitals.

[Matt]

True, my buddy has some vette aluminum heads that would work on it. The motor as it sits has great pistons and rods, and a mediocre crank. I don't want the hassle of a carbed car, especially since I plan on going turbo with it....actually going to go turbo with either.
So I gotta figure out a good EFI system to use, at first I was going to do the 749 computer (?) the one from the cyclone...then get it messed with because I was told it can handle a 2 bar map sensor as well as it's generally a good computer. The other thing I was thinking was an AEM standalone, but that has me a little scared.

I was also told I'd need a mildon(?) bellhousing to get the lt1 camaro t-56 to bolt up, the whole 2 piece vs 1 piece crank seal thing.

[Steve Chryssos]

A cam/head LS1, properly tuned will spank the snot out of a well built 377

Just thought I'd let that hang in the air for a little while...... :enguard:

[ProdigyCustoms]

LOL Steve. I agree the LSX motors are neat, but mods are expensive, and if the same money is invested, dollar for dollar, the 377 will kick the sheot out of the LSX all the way up the ladder.

[BB69]

Matt,
You can't beat a Megasquirt computer for low cost EFI. It's a do-it-yourself computer that was spawned by the DIY-EFI site. It uses speed-density technology and off the shelf GM parts. The best part, is that people are constantly upgrading the software and adding features....for free. I am setting mine up to run EFI and distributorless ignition. If you don't want to solder your's up, several people are selling completed units on eBAY for about $300.

Ken

[dennis68]

Lets see, complete LSX from Chevrolet is about 6K, another grand for used Patriot heads and 500 for used Fugul cam and throttle body. Dyno engine power about 600ish. Thats 7500 for over 500RWHP. That ASSumes a new engine, if you found a low mileage used engine for like 3K then it's 4500.

I was raised on 1st gen motors and took me awhile to warm up to that darn new fangle fuel injection stuff. It kicks ass.

[Matt]

You guys aren't making this easier ;)

I have a few friends with ls1's, and they are great motors, At the same time since I have the block and rotating assembly, and the tranny that can go with it, I'm thinking that would probably be the best bet. That efi systems sounds like a good idea, got a link for more info?

Once I get the insurance check I'm going to re-purchase all my suspension bits, and probably grab wheels, tires, and brakes...then wait until I have a bit more dough to finish off the engine and tranny. Since I just moved I'm living off of savings right now, and once I start getting the biz going I'll finish up the car.

...speaking of anyone in the San Antonio/ Austin area need a website... here's the last site we did Http://www.riograndebdm.com

-Matt

[BB69]

Matt,
Here is the website:

http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html

For somebody willing to get involved a little, I don't think this system can be beat. My dad made his own fuel injection system from scratch. He then helped me build this Megasquirt system. He was impressed enough that he bought another one to use on a new project. He has actuall gotten that one running (what I mean is the rest of the project was ready) and been impressed with how well the system works. If you already have a GM engine with sensors and a throttle body, you are way ahead of the game.

Again, the best parts is that the system is always being improved and the knowledge shared.

Ken

[ProdigyCustoms]

Dennis, What about everything else it takes to make it run, computors, harness, cooling, coils, Fuel system, bla, bla, bla. With a 377, you put it in the car, conect a few wires, and go.

[Steve Chryssos]

Frank,
Computer & stuff (like flexplate) are included in the $6500. The general is just pulling this stuff off mass production assembly lines so they can afford to sell them top to bottom for cheap. Same reason why Vortec heads are so cheap--they fell off an assembly line. But whatever, I'll take that challenge. I can build a competitive gen one for the same $$$.

You and I agree. Smart people have been building big power with gen1's for decades. No reason for the LSx boys to think they've created and own the market.

Real power takes a talented builder and tuner--regardless of platform. So Matt, tell us about the parts in your 377, maybe it's worth picking up where you left off. And it sounds like maybe your insurane company lo-baled you. If you have not accepted their settlement amount yet--maybe you shouldn't. Threaten to include your lawyer in the process and you may be surprised by their final number.

[RobM]

i agree with steve, i think some of us have forgoten about the older style small blocks and their potential. i know ive always enjoyed making somthing great from stuff that people comonly overlook. im all about the mentality of making chicken soup from chicken ****. not every thing that looks/performs like its expencive is.

[dennis68]

I have not forgotten about the 1st gen, just realized the potential of the GenIII is much more. I have built hundreds of 1st gen engines (mostly B/B for offshore use), the GenIII engines respond much better to cylinder head and camshaft work than any 1st gen. 1 of the guys I work with spent WAY over 10K building a 377 for high speed/road course use, granted some parts were over the top for durabuility but all said and done he pulled like 410RWHP last year. It's coming down again this winter looking for more power. This is not an amatuer builder BTW, tons of experience building road course cars. For that amount of money he could easily have gotten a GenIII to pull over 600RWHP.

Just my thoughts, I don't think any less of somebody for running a GenI engine, hell I have one. Just looking at it from the standpoint of having to start from scratch anyway. If I had to do it all over, and when I do go through the powertrain again...I'll go with a LSx.

[Steve Chryssos]

What is the basis for the LSx's greater potential? Let's leave the "bang for the buck" of mass production out of the equation so that we can study parts and specs.
I see raised intake ports and direct port electronic fuel injection as direct comparison to the typical gen1. These parts are readily available for Gen1's. Add raised runner heads and direct port FI to a Gen1 and the output is no doubt comparable. Other than that--let's face it--it's just another V8--crank rods, and pistons. Of course, then price comes back into play--but let's leave it out for now.

BTW, what's the intake valve angle on an LSx? Anybody? Bueller?

[ProdigyCustoms]

I am putting together a package as we speak that should be impossible to beat Bang for the buck, I would put up against any LSX motor, with a 50% higher budget!
I will be using some used parts, but used parts would be welcome for comparision with the LSX motor. It looks like I will be in around $8000. We expect to be well north of 700HP N/A. I see no way a LSX motor could compete heads up for even $12,000 as it would take cubes, and cubes are still very expensive for LSX motors.
And did I mention the LSX motors are ugly unless you spend a fortune moving coil packs and buying high dollar valve covers. I would much rather dress an old motor.
For our friend Matt that started this post and had it stolen, it is a no brainer for him to use his 377. Even if it is not exactly the way he wants it now, it will be easy to make changes down the road as the cash flow corrects itself.
I do know the LSX is a damn cool, and a strong platform, but right now they are still an expensive big HP build. This will change as years go by, small Fords used to be expensive to build.
JMO

[Bill Howell]

I faced the same decision when I started the malibu project. While I liked the looks and maybe drivablity advantages of the LS injected motors, I decided to go with something I was familiar with. I bought a new ZZ4 block then added an all edlebrock top end(2201roller,air gap,800cfm,rpm performer heads). Including every part-w/p,starter,valve covers,sst bolts, pan, bla,bla ,bla, I still have less than $5500 in the motor. When installed, all I have to do is plug in the distributor to the bu wiring harness. No fussing with a lap top or having something I know nothing about. I know there are those here that know fuel injection and computers as will as I know carbs., but I still felt that dollar for dollar they were over rated. I drive a hummer and a duramax as daily drivers and love their reliability but if something happens to them I have to go to the dealer. I could not justify spending $2-$3 grand extra on a car I probably will not drive over 3000 miles annually anyway. The bottom line is build what suits your needs.
I will say this, when spring rolls around, if anyone is interested in a real world comparason, I'll be glad to meet at a drag strip and compare your $5500 LS with my junk! :naughty: I have made the challenge-got any takers?????? :enguard:
This thread is about dollar vs. dollar and best bang for the buck right?? :dunno:

[dennis68]

LSx valve angle is 15 degrees.

Bang for buck ....how about 1000RWHP and still idles at 1000rpm-totally street driveable for 12K-15K IF you bought everything brand new. Go check out LS1TECH.com, see the dyno results section and some of the numbers those guys are clicking off in their daily drivers. Keep in mind those are all RWHP numbers so add a hundered or so for crankshaft numbers.

Not a thread hijack as this directly responds to Matts needs, what will be the cost effective way to get him going.

[Steve Chryssos]

Good thread. Glad it's not getting out of hand. 15 degrees. Good. This thread really makes me want to put a pair of 14 degree raised runner Darts and port fuel injection on my Gen 1 406.

So to recap LSx's have:
-Raised runner, shallow valve angle heads
-Electronic Port Fuel injection
-Coil On Plug Ignition.
-What else? (don't tell me cam timing because that's a product of intake exhaust tract design). All three components listed above are readily available for Gen1 platforms. Individual coil ignitions are now available from a mainstream source: MSD.

So it seems to me that the main difference is that the typical Gen1 enthusiast is running 23 degree heads, carburetors and traditional distributors. It's not the platform--it's the person. Smart people are making the most of mass produced 15 degree, raised runner, fuel injected, coil on plug LSx engines. That's a good thing. On the other hand, our man Matt may be able to apply the same technology to his Gen1 377 short and take advantage of money already spent.

[derekf]

Does the reverse flow cooling of the LSx engines help performance, or just help keep the engine alive?

[dennis68]

Thought of a few more advantages, revised ignition timing to eliminate the 5-7 sequential firing, weight savings of about 150lbs over a genI small block, and interchange..ie, 45lbs Cobra injectors bolt right up, a used Z06 cam will slide right into a 4.8 and so on.

Agree that a genI CAN use some of these attributes but at what expense??? Last I checked eevn used 18 degree heads were outrageous, thenyou have to buy a dedicated intake and valve train. A DIY FI setup COULD be fashioned, but again, at what expense (consider the trial and error part).

My thought was to sell whats left of the 377 to someone unwilling or unable to get into the FI world and use the funds to buy a used LSx as a platform. I've seen complete used set-ups with harness and VCM for under 3K. As funds permit buy a cam or upgraded heads, hell maybe a turbo set-up. Lots of the LS guys are going the turbo route and making huge power. I think the better kits run about 4K for a TT system with pipes and headers.

Derek, just provides a more constant temp throughout the engine as well as provide cooling to the heads first (priority cooling). Also allows the engine maintain temp through the drive cycle, the new DCX HEMI will heat up and maintain with a few degrees all day, no more swings on the temp gauge.

[Bill Howell]

Matt,
Just curious? what hp range are you looking for. Since hp=dollars maybe I misunderstood you plans. I thought you were working with $7500.

Dennis,
I am not arguing-just asking. I went over to LS-1tech. I could not find those 1000hp daily drivers you mentioned. Please tell me were they are, I must be looking in the wrong place. I think if I read right, that is a tad over Matt's current budget anyway. Sounds cool though, maybe I'll have a new motor for sale myself soon if I can figure out how to get 1000hp to the ground and still use the A/C (Fat,old men need A/C). I guess they run 9" rears? What type trans?

[Steve Chryssos]

Thought of a few more advantages, revised ignition timing to eliminate the 5-7 sequential firing, weight savings of about 150lbs over a genI small block, and interchange..ie, 45lbs Cobra injectors bolt right up, a used Z06 cam will slide right into a 4.8 and so on.

Agree that a genI CAN use some of these attributes but at what expense???

5/7 swap cams are available for Gen1. The weight savings are a big deal--again the benefit of mass production. GM has always been the king of interchangability.
Dennis,
I am by no means arguing with you--Just want the boys and girls out in horsepower land to know that the LSx formula is not magic, and it's not exclusive. In the end, the LSx platform is just good old fashioned hot rodding applied to volume production engines. Amen, Halleluyah and Halle Berry!

p.s. There is some cheap raised runner stuff out there these days like Vortecs. And the aftermarket company that produces a cathedral style (tall and narrow) intake runner to a GEN1 block will set the GEN1 world on it's ear.

[dennis68]

Hey Bill, go to the dyno topics and read through the results there, no not evryone is running 1000HP but there are a few. If only one could do it and still maintain it's street manners that says quite a bit, the only genI small blocks I know of anywhere near that are my buddies running top fuel nostalgia with 80/20 nitro mixes through a 8-71. Not really streetable. Look through some of those posts over there, it almost a given that anybody doing any tuning on a stocker is over the 450HP mark (350RWHP). Thats a pretty good acclompishment, Edlebrocks high end engines barley hit 425HP. Throw a cam and heads on a GenIII and you will be way over the 500HP mark for less money than any of the high end crate engines out there.

Can you make good power on a budget with the genI stuff, you bet. Hell ask Vince or Allen me and my budgets, my GenI is over the 350HP mark and idles smooth.

Again I know that the GenIII stuff isn't magic, just much easier for the guy in his garage to make big power without sacraficing street manners.

[bookends]

you can find LS1's CHEAP! thay're getting very common. I found one with a broken accessory bolt hole for $1100. everyone was scared of it because it had to be welded. I tig welded it. it's now in my 99 SS and I'm rebuilding the Ls1 from it for my 69. anyways if you check with the message boards at LS1 tech. and on Ebay you can find some deals. also search Salvage yards. you can find 5.3's cheap cause they're not LS1's but all the heads and such interchange.

[Nine Ball]

Good thread. Its much easier to gain loads of hp and maintain drivability with the Gen III engines. Another advantage not yet mentioned, which assists with drivability and reliability, is the LSX camshaft base circle diameter. These engines have gun drilled large diameter camshafts. That makes running a high lift roller cam pretty efficient simply due to the lift/base ratio. A .600" lift cam in an LSX engine is still daily drivable and smooth, and the valvetrain doesn't get beat to death as quickly.

Injector targeting on the LSX increases the fuel efficiency vs power output. Thats how many of us are making 600+ hp on pump gas and getting 25+ mpg.

Aluminum block, waterpump, and heads make a huge difference in weight. At least 150 lbs off the front of your car. Better for handling, braking, and racing. They also have 6-bolt mains from the factory.

Stock LSX heads flow about the same as off the shelf SBC racing heads. Thanks GM!

Since some of you guys don't frequent LS1TECH, here are some interesting facts and records for you to consider about the LSX engines. Remember, this is 7 years of playing with them, and it will improve even more.

Stock internal (factory untouched longblock, including cam, valvesprings, heads, etc...) record was set over the weekend. This car went a 10.89 all-motor. Car is a 4th gen Firebird, 3000 lbs raceweight. That is astounding considering the longblock is untouched from the factory. Just bolt-on external modifications.

Several stock cube LSX engines (346ci) have put down over 500 rwhp all-motor. Ported factory heads, solid roller cam, off the shelf intakes, headers, tuning. I believe the highest one so far is 530 rwhp. Most daily-drivable heads/cam LS1s are now making 430-460 rwhp easily. My '02 pulls 430 rwhp thru catalytics, with full emissions system, and still managed 30 mpg on Power Tour. Thats roughly 490 crank HP. The car idles nearly stock, and is very quiet.

Stock bottom end LSX record has run 9.6 on nitrous. Stock pistons, stock crank, stock rods. Untouched shortblock.

Fastest LSX right now has gone 8.29 @ 170 mph. It is a 348ci LS1 engine with twin turbos and ported LS1 heads. Still running the factory crank! This was also in a 3500 lb Firebird Firehawk, on its first visit to the track with the new setup.

These are some awesome accomplishments considering the time frame.

Also, used LS1s typically sell in the $1800-2500 range for a longblock with all accessories. Anyone spending $6K on a new GM longblock should be smacked. You could take that $2000 used one to an LS1 builder, give him the extra $4K and have a 500-550 hp engine with all brand new parts.

I bought the LS6 longblock in my '69 used for $1000. Came with all the accessories, harness, engine mounts, etc... I sold some of the stuff I didn't need (vette pan, harness, etc..) and ended up making about $800 back. So, I had a longblock for $200 invested. Had it sent to MTI for a forged internal rebuild, and have less than $3800 total in a bulletproof 348ci LS6 with ported heads. You can build these engines cheap if you shop around. Deals happen quite often

Can you build that 377ci to kick ass? Sure, easily. But, I guarantee it won't have the drivability or efficiency of an LSX engine making the same power. Thats THE advantage of the LSX engines, they respond awesome to simple mods, and they retain drivability.

[Bill Howell]

Dennis,
I found one thread over there were a shop dynoed a shop car with a LS they built with patriot heads,turbo bla bla bla and got 972 hp. I question this being a street car that is daily driven though. I just can not beleive there are many out there. Personally, I have owned several cars I though were pretty bad, but the most hp in any street car I ever owned was around 650hp. My Lord, I cannot imagine needing any more for the street. My idea of "street" is p/s,p/b and a/c. The reason I like this site its that it is about the total package. What good is making 1000hp hook, if you can not make the next curve. The concept of Pro-touring is to do both. I certainly understand the new gen motors are much easier to tame and have good street manners,so maybe that is were I am missing the boat. My point was and still is that I will put my old school motor up against a $5500 LS-1. I'm done now-but I still want someone to indulge me with the real world challenge :naughty: . I should have been from Missouri because you got to "show me".I 've been wrong before so I can handle that too...
Matt,
Sorry to hijack!!!!

[Nine Ball]

My point was and still is that I will put my old school motor up against a $5500 LS-1. I'm done now-but I still want someone to indulge me with the real world challenge :naughty: . I should have been from Missouri because you got to "show me".I 've been wrong before so I can handle that too...
Matt,
Sorry to hijack!!!!

How much power is your engine making? Is that $5500 for everything required to run the engine, or just a long block?

prices on LSX engines are dropping. Scoggin-****ey announced last week that they are now selling 402ci forged internal LS2 shortblocks for just under $4K out the door. Put some $1500 ported LS1 heads on there and a good cam and you will see 600-650 hp. 4 years ago the same results from an LSX would have cost you $8K minimum.

BTW, the majority of cars on LS1TECH are still daily driven. Yes, there are only a couple that make 900+ hp and drive their cars often, but 600-700 rwhp (700-800 crank hp) is not uncommon at all. That is including A/C, PS, PB, etc...

Two of my local buds have 427ci LS1s that put down 550 rwhp all-motor, and over 700 rwhp on nitrous. Both are daily-driven.

[Bill Howell]

Nine Ball,
$5500 is everything from carb to pan. everything is new and stock shelf parts. My point,trying to stay with this thread, was if you built a new LS complete (computer, wiring) for the same money- comparing apples with apples- how would the two match up. I for one do look at your site regularly but most of it is over my head-you know-that old man thing.I also know that sooner or later we will all have LS stuff. I just think the old stuff does not get respect anymore. Your point is well taking about smooth idle and mpg. I don't know my hp yet, but should be what 400-415? What would the LS be giving the same parameters?
Heah, I'm here to learn, but I have to ask the questions to get the true answers. I hope no one ever takes it personnally, but sometimes hard questions are required.
Thanks,

[ProdigyCustoms]

Dennis, Nine ball, you guys have LSXs so you are lobbying for them as expected, and Nine Ball, I have seen yours run and REALLY like it a lot. But with all that said..... Dennis, I do not know what your car runs, I am slightly familiar with Nine ball and it is still shy of my $7500 (all new parts) 406 on muscle, at 10 to 1, on pump gas. It is still a half a second away, and I have not got to the magic button yet. I am not dising your car (s) in anyway, and am not saying mine is better by any means. My motor (just one example) is just a 23 degree Pro 1 headed, flat top pistoned, carbureted dinosaur. I have not dynoed it, but it has to be close to 600hp on horsepower to run 10.60s @ 126MPH. We run a 150 shot on pump gas, last week ran 9.80s @ 137MPH all day, and also run a 300 shot with a little 110 mixed in and we go bottom nines, at 3500LBS. We are talking an honest 900HP for $7500, and it is completely streetable. We did 70 miles Saturday night. Sunday we will do our winter No bull race. No bull is the local grudge race where everyone meets, cruises to the track, pulls names, and last one standing takes the money. I will drive 40 miles to the spot, then cruise 20 more miles from the spot to the track, run bottom nines hopefully 5 or 6 rounds, and drive 45 miles home. We do the race every few months for 5 years.
I have stated a few times in this post the LSX are very cool, but the 1000HP turbos and ProChargers do not impress me, as I could bolt either on mine and top that, for less money.
As Steve said, it is not the platform, it is the person. I see kid has issued a challenge, I will do the same thing and put my next motor against an LSX motor, Giving the LSX a 50% greater budget. But this will be in a car that was not born with a LSX, hooked up and running including electric, cooling systems, fuel systems (how much does a Walbro pump to feed 1000HP cost anyway), hooked to whatever transmission, All these cost must be included. It is critical to include all the cost of connections, as this is one area a big HP LSX gets expensive. Used parts will be fine, but they must be booked at nationally advertised prices. I am even thinking a claimer rule should be in effect, meaning one contestant can buy the others motor for the value they claim, if one doubts the others cost. Works great in racing.
If someone would like to do something, I would be interested in working out some details. This new motor will far surpass my present motor. I can't wait. It looks like it will go in Prodigy.
Nine Ball, are those runs on pump gas?

[Nine Ball]

Bill, it will be nearly impossible to build a bone-stock LS1 with brand new parts for less than what you have invested ($4500). However, a used complete pullout sells for around $1800-2500 all day long on ebay. You could put fresh piston rings in depending on miles, new valvesprings, and a cam swap and you will have your 400-460 hp engine no problem. There are probably 20+ cars on the site making over 400 rwhp with just a cam swap and headers. Everything else stock.

[Bill Howell]

So you are saying that to take one of these $2500 used motors,rebuild it, then retrofit it in a malibu or 69 camaro (ready to ride) would cost what? Could you do that for $5500? Remember fuel pump,radiator,fans wiring computer bla bla bla. Since I have not done it, I'm sure there are things I don"t even know about. I am guessing you would be pressed to do that-right? Another dumb question- If I put say a pro-jection system(or something similiar) on my car wouldn't I have about the same drivability,idle, mpg as your LS1 and pick up a few more hp too? So I spend an extra $1000 on injection (take the carb money and $1000) and you take that same $1000 to finish up your retrofit. Now were are we?

[dennis68]

Most of the 2500 engines on ebay include EVERTHING except the fuel system, they include manifolds, wiring, PCM(VCM), accessories, everything. The only thing you need to do is maybe some hose work for the radiator and a fuel system.

No, installing pro-jection will not instantly give you the same drivability, perhaps after much trial and error it may run close, not the same MPG, the gen I engine is not as efficient as the gen III engine.

Bill, you have a very difficult finding very many folks with gen I/carb engines that can cold start in 20 degree weather with no drivability issues and knock down 25MPG and still hit over 400RWHP, it's just not an easy thing to do, especially for less than 4-5k.

psssst, I don't have a gen III. Not even in the garage. And what do mean not impressive adding turbos or SC, just as impressive as you spraying isn’t it? I am impressed by any engine that can drive all day while knocking down over 20MPG and still click off 9”s any time it wants.

I would gladly accept this gen I vs. gen III challenge except that I don’t have a gen III. I also wouldn’t put any money on a race between my gen I and any gen III.Look me up in a year or so, I’ll be ready then.

BTW, thanks for chiming in Tony and backing me up, I was feeling awfully lonely for awhile.

[Steve Chryssos]

Dennis,
Sorry for putting you on the spot. I for one have learned a ton of good information from this little pow wow. Thanks.

[dennis68]

Thats got to be the biggest compliment I've had in years-that I may have helped to educate you guys. I remember looking through magazines at your car thinking someday maybe I 'll have car that nice. A lot of you guys were my heros and inspiration. No apology required, There might 1 or 2 guys on this whole board that get my blood pressure up, this is all fun right?

Alright, enough totally off topic sillyness.

[ProdigyCustoms]

Me's learnin too. Always learnin. No hard feelins here. Funny enough, tonight I put in a buy bid on a 2000 WS6 6 speed car hit hard. I want the drivetrain for a low horse cruiser. So I am warming to the LSXs.
I do not think we are off topic, at least I have tried to stay on topic as Matt's original question was referring to how to do everything on a budget, And I contend on a budget like his he should stay with what he has, so I fight for the bang for the buck of the conventional SBC. It will drop right in place with no special parts. He can always beef it up more later. My original answer to him is that he could make great power with a 377 cheap. then it went into the what is better / cheaper. Somewhere along the way, some of us started talking about 1000HP $15K motors, when the question is how to spend $7k, on everything including brakes, wheels, etc. It seems like Matt might fell pressured by the community to use a high tech LSX for his car to be anything, but I see a real trend back to the conventional motors.
Matt, Steve asked, tell us about your 377 as it stands right now. I am sure of one thing. Either Steve, myself or 46 can make the 377 run, were old enough to know how!

[dennis68]

Hey Matt, how complete if that 377? Just curious as to what it is going to take to finish it. Are you really close or does it need another 2K worth of parts. There are a couple Gen III's on ebay complete for about 3500 or so and that includes a T56 as well. You could sell the 377 short block for a few hundred easy and the T56's go for about 1300 on ebay so you would recoup at least 1750 or so. That would leave a net investment on a complete LS1 with harness and computer.sensors of 1750. If it were me, that sounds like a viable option, again depending on how close you are to being ready to run.

[Bill Howell]

Denny,
First thing-sorry, I though it was Dennis.
My point in this thread was for those who read later for referance. I know from experiance that projects always cost more than you first expect they will. I am tring to stress that at $2500-$3500 initial investment for a LS motor, you are still along way from driving a retrofitted car. Another thing we didnot mention was headers. Wouldn't they be differant also? Denny, as you mentioned, we all have heroes and those we think know it all. I just think it would be wrong for newbies to think their only option was LS. I think we have showed here that for about the same money you can go either way. Back to your reply to me about pro-jection, I realize I would give up mpg to you but basically we would have about the same hp. The differance being my engine is new and ya'll were talking used or rebuilt. I'm still of the mindset (and I hope ya'll prove me wrong) that there are not many if any daily 20mpg drivers that run 9's. I think it is great if there are some, I just know what it takes to run 9's.
All that being said, I too have learned and enjoyed this thread. The only thing is, I doubt seriously we have helped Matt at all. Good Luck Matt in your decision. Let us know what you do.

[dennis68]

For future posterity I'll clear a few things up. When doing the LSx retro fit and ASSuming that one aquired a complete engine from as donor car with PCM, harness, and accessories there are only a few other things required. This project does not get carried away as do many others. One woud need to fab some mounts or purchase them from one of the suppliers, I belive they are about 125.00. The maniflods that come on the LSx engines only give up a about 10HP at peak over headers so I recommend just running the manifolds for the sake of packaging. The fuel system is a simple matter of installing an inline fuel pump and wiring it. I would estimate after aquiring said donor engine assembly that the investment required to get it running would be under 500.00.

There might be few guys running 9's and knocking down better than 20MPG, but there a thousands running 10's (which is good enough for me) and still getting 20MPG on the way to the track. HERE (http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=85) is a forum page from ls1tech.com that lists all the drag strip times, scroll through and you will find LOTS of 9's-10's-11's from street cars.

HERE (http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/etdb.php?etlist=&sort=4&order=asc&pp=25&page=1) is another link of nothing but timeslips, it doesn't show how modified the car is is. I am sure the faster cars, like in 8's are heavily modded and not getting the MPG above but the high 9's -11's are all drivers I'm sure.

[Steve Chryssos]

We need more threads like this. Mature adults pondering hard differences between two engine platforms. Beats the hell out of the days when we all just sat around--finger tapping our chins, eyes looking up at the ceiling, and asking the question:

What :hmm: .....Is Pro-Touring?

[harshman]

Ok. So I’ll ask the question. I’ve got a 68 Camaro. How hard (much $) would it bee to install an LS1/T56 combo? I can get one for $4k w/ 20k miles on it complete. I know I need motor mounts, but will it clear the cross member? What else?
I am a fan of the fuel or fire carb engines however, an all aluminum motor spitin out decent hp numbers comparable to my big block is something to consider. I have also been told that these motors respond very well to "upgrades".

[dennis68]

Brian??? I can't remember everybodys names. Check out THIS (http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=28) page over at LS1TECH.com, those guys have it down to a science as to exactly what works at what doesn't as well as what special is required for each application. I recall something about notching the crossmember but that might have been on A bodies. Tony will chime in soon with he did on his. 4K for an engine with T56 and wiring/PCM with accessories is a really good deal.

[MoeBawlz]

this is a really good thread.. its good to see people break down and actually compare the two platforms rather than just say "mines better"

Im not sure on this but dont the LS motors have 6 bolt mains too? and also is the block itself stronger? stock block for stock block, not getting into darts or anything, just outta curiosity.

Id love to have an LS motor just to have some experience with it, but someone earlier posted about the looks of it, and i have to agree the Gen I is much easier to dress up and look nice... granted looks arent all that counts but when motors can be pretty evenly matched through and through it does help.

[Nine Ball]

1st gen f-body requires you to notch the front of the sump back 2" in order to clear the stock steering setup. Some of us have converted to a front steering setup (rack/pinion) to avoid doing so. The rack/pinion also saves about 75 lbs off the front of the car compared to stock steering.

LS1 is a 6-bolt main. You are correct. Dressing them up isn't difficult at all. I made my coil relocation brackets out of aluminum angle rod from Home Depot. Then picked up a used set of sheetmetal valvecovers for $200 and had them chrome plated. You couldn't even tell it is an LS1 now :smoke: . here is my LS6: http://users.ev1.net/~ynot_dv8/69camaro/website/graphics/commerce05.jpg

As for which block is stronger, the SBC vs the LS1 engines, they have proven to both be very solid performers for production blocks. The strongest LSX block would be the aluminum C5R block with its 4.125" bore, but that block is $6K bare. All of the LS1 stuff bolts right onto it though. Also, those 6.0L truck blocks are LS1 based and are cast iron just like the SBC, but have a 4.0" bore. All the LSX stuff bolts onto those as well.

One benefit of the SBC is the 5 head bolts per cylinder. LSX have only 4 bolts per cylinder. So, stock form, the SBCs can handle slightly more boost on turbo/supercharger applications. But, guys building LSX setups with high boost just machine out those bolt holes and go with larger diameter head studs. Problem solved.

The attention/gawk factor every time I pop the hood is well worth any trouble doing the conversion. Seeing traditional SBC engines in 1st gen Camaros isn't anything too exciting, its expected.

[socalfandabodys]

I was going to put a ls1 in my 68 camaro but it seems like alot more money and work that the average working joe cant do. I think I am just going to stick with my future build of a 383 and tremec 5 speed. I looked into the ls1 swap and it takes alot of different things to work. Motor mounts,cutting into the pan,new fuel tank, fuel rail modifications,better cooling systems,hose modifications different compressor to clear hood,welding in sensors into the exhaust,new wiring from painless. I dont know but my advice is if you only have $7500 for engine ,wheels,tires,brakes and suspension stick with the first gen small block.

[yody]

Who really cares whos is better? They are both good engines and have been both proven to be well perfomers. All this discussion on which is better is pretty useless. They are what they are. I think this post really boils down to what does it cost to do a LS1 conversion. Obviously for the most part an LS1 is more expensive, but it is a cool engine with tons of potential. Personally I would like to build a LS1 for my next project. IS it more expensive? defiently. Has the same power potential if not more. But it is different than your average small block. Obviously different engines can be made for different price ranges, but it is all comparative. Pretty much the only things these engines have in common is that they are v8's and that they have pushrods. I never really understood the comparsion thing. Engines, cars, or whatever are what they are, there will always be exteme cases or unheard of bargains, but things are different, lets just accept that. BTW nineball, that is one great looking engine!!! If anyone thinks LS1's are ugly check out Nineballs, or steve69ss's engine, just as good if not better than some first gens!

[Bill Howell]

All this discussion on which is better is pretty useless.

Let me see -48 replys and 1145 views
Maybe someone found something here of value.
Sorry if I contributed to boring you though!

[ProdigyCustoms]

Agreed Yody. I really like your car and motor Nine Ball. the Magnacharger really gives it that old retro blower look.
Well, I am off to Grenada for a few days. You guys keep it nice.

[yody]

A ton of great info here on LS1's and swaps! I was just trying to say that this post should be more about LS1's and what they are, cost, and what is dealt with installing one....That trying to argue about which is better is useless, sorry if it was confusing. People are trying to do an apples to apples comparison here which is very hard to do considering the natures of the 2 types of motors. I was sayijng that they are different, there isn't much of a comparison. They are both great!

[dennis68]

Yodi.....I think you totally missed the point of the discussion. It was about given x dollars to spend, how should it be spent and why. The discussion turned toward the attributes of the different engines while discussing how to spend Matts money.

You can compare different engines to one another, there will always be some bad points and some good points to different engines. There will always a "better" engine as well, otherwise manufacters wouldn't spend millions each year on R&D. This year DCX will launch a "detuned" 425HP 6.1 in the new 300C. 10 years ago that a was dream at best, no way to get that kind of power and still maintain nice street manners and decent MPG.

[Bill Howell]

Denny,
Good answer on header question. After reserching that "other site" I think you may be alittle low on the $500 to retro but alot closer than my guess of $2500 of so. I guess too it depends on whether you are going back basically stock or "full tilt". Then you would be looking at more fuel pump bla bla bla. Oh yeah, a 10 sec, 20mpg driver would suit me too. Ya'll keep on, you are going to win me over.

Yody,
Remember, some of us "seasoned"(old) guys have to argue-defend old school. Otherwise we would have to admit we don't understand the new stuff.(I am talking about me.) Thats ok, as per another thread,I have all weekend to learn and study up on LS1. :moon: :lmao:

[yody]

Dennis you are right, the thread did start out that way. I have a question; Most Pontiac enthusiasts think i suck for putting a chevy motor in my firebird, what do you think they would say if it had an LS1 in it?

[Bill Howell]

Yody,
They could not say much since the late models had LS motors. LS motors are GM, not brand specific anyway. One thing is for sure, you would certainly have a major weight savings up front.

[dennis68]

YEAH, I think we turned Bill.

[Matt]

Wow, I haven't been on the net much the last few days. I can't believe I missed the best thread in PT.com's history. ( I kid, I kid)

I guess I didn't realize that the t-56 install kit was so pricey, not a knock on the fellows that make it, just that me thinking all I needed was a mildon (iirc) bellhousing, and fab some braces and brackets was quite a bit off. This comes into play certainly.

LSX's are putting down some serious power indeed, they are pricey to mod, but the prices are starting to really come down. In fact last week I could have picked up some very well worked used heads and a albeit used nice cam for 500 bucks. I've read the stock cranks are taking upwards of 800hp (roughly 900lbs/ft of torque) like champs. The stock head design is ok, not amazing. The stock computer isn't the best on the market, but at the same time ls1 edit isn't too hard to get ahold of, nor is it very expensive.

About the 377: It's the 400 small block with a 350 steel crank, Forged rods and pistons, and some mild cam. My friend built it years ago for a project he never got to, a blower car. He sold it to me for 1500, I think I was very naive in buying it, and basically got screwed. Hindsight is always 20/20. Thing is I think I can talk to the guy, get a good bit of the money back since the motor is still sitting in his garage a state away. I'll have him ship me the currie 9inch I bought from him, and get back at least 1k from the engine.

About the parts that were stolen, I had to ballpark the 'replacement value' since I paid wholesale, since I was doing work for a few performance shops and was getting the hookup of a life time since everyone also wanted to see this car get done. Fortunately since I'm still in many people's good graces I still have those avenues to use. Between the Dart heads, the Boyd coddington wheels, all my suspension save sway bars and rear leafs, a competition air pistol, line locker, brake prop valve, momo steering wheel, falken tires, edlebrok intake manifold, and a few other things, 8k seemed about right for replacement value. I don't have the money in hand yet since it's been a bit of a production.

As per my method, I was going to go turbo either way. It's what I know, what I cut my teeth on, and what I'm comfortable around. I'm not purely a drag racer so nitrous doesn't appeal to me as much, and bang for the buck NA isn't where it's at.

If I can get an ls1/ t-56 combo for under 4k, which I think is possible, I'll have roughly 6,500 left between the insurance, selling the lt1 t-56 (which I don't want to do), and motor refund. Thats enough for wheels, tires, seats, brakes, gauges, fuel, and the rest of my suspension. In fact maybe even some upgrades as far as what I was to get. Not to mention I would have defacto fuel injection, and an easier (of what I've heard and read) install.

If I was going to stick with the 377, and get the 8k from insurance, as I understand it I'd be down to enough for heads and tires. And go into pocket for wheels, brakes, the rest of the suspension, a new intake manifold, etc.

I'm not sure if this has an impact on you guys read this, but I'm only 23 (24 at the end of the month), just graduated college. I'm better off than a lot of people my age that weren't born into money, but I don't have the cash flow that I'd have if I were 10 years older and better established. As well my goal isn't a 1200hp barn buster. 700-800hp (race gas) is certainly no slouch, and twice the power of any car I've owned to date. To be perfectly honest 450street/ 700race wouldn't make me in the least bit upset.

To think yesterday morning I was about to start rebuilding my carb and unpack the lt1 t-56. And now I'm looking at my roommate 2000 z28 and thinking about how mad he'll be if I cannibalize it as he sleeps.

-Matt

[68protouring454]

email me please
[email protected]
asap
jake

[Matt]

e-mailed ya back.

[bookends]

As I've mentioned I've got a 99 Camaro SS, and a 69 Camaro. the 69 had a 406 with vortec heads, holley 750, decent cam and a 100 shot it ran 11.80. My SS ran 12.60 with a TCI 3500 stall and 3.73 gears at 3600 pounds. what's more my friend's cam only 00 trans Am runs 11.70's and with a 100 shot it runs 10.90 that's with a t56 and 3.73 gears. yes you can build an old school small block to perform just as well and you can use fuel injection to get the same drivability. but be prepared to spend the difference tuning an aftermarket fi unit. with the LS series engines you have a proven set up that is very tried and true. you get to start at a higher performance level and progress from there.. just my .02