Thoughts on Chassis works G-Bar suspension system for camaro?

[OneslowZ28]

I was wondering what everyone thought of the chris alston's G-bar Rear suspension system. I am possibly thinking on purchasing this setup but wanted feedback from other people.
Other option on my table is the Lateral Dynamics 3 link setup with some parts out of the DSE deep tub kit.

[baz67]

Link? to the G-bar. I could not find it on Chris Alston's site.

[novanutcase]

LD 3 link wins hands down!

[70CaliCustom]

The G-bar suspension setup has been in the past few of Alston's ads in PHR but I don't think its on their website yet. To me it looks like they took the Airride kit and threw in coilovers instead of the airbags (for $500 less).

If I understand correctly, the LD 3-link kit would take significant more fabrication (cost) and possible loss of a back seat but would outperform the triangulated 4-link of the alston kit. I'm sure more experience members can chime in here.


I have also been considering the Alston kit since I wasn't too keen on paying a few grand for an air-ride setup. Then again, maybe I'll just stick with leafs.

That probably didn't help too much but maybe someone can confirm that it is the same setup as ARTs AirBar system.

If you end up going with it let us know how it is!

[OneslowZ28]

yeah i was looking all over the website i could not find any more info than what is in the magazine ad. I did call and they said around march they will have the fab9 rear as a bolt in for the Gbar. Also i found out that the bar attaches to the inside edge of the frame rail so mini tubbing is a possibility. Im figuring a bolt in triangulated 4 link and the dse tub kit would run $4k and the LD 3 link would be a little higher once you get done with options.

[Mean 69]

Hi guys,

Just a couple thoughts on the second gen cars, and our rear setup. We simply can't compete with the pricing on the triangulated type setups, well, we could if were interested in making this type of setup, but that's not our market. As with the other four link type kits on the market, about the only thing in common with them as far as our setup goes is that they both eliminate the leaf springs, and replace with links and coil overs. Similarities pretty much end right there, if you compare what is included with each kit, the quality, and the function, we are confident that there is no better value on the market, period.

As far as the tubbing is concerned, and this is not to take away anything at all from the DSE kit, but the second gen cars lend themselves really nicely to doing a tub job, without the need for the stamped deep tubs (as long as the inner wheelhouses are in good shape, if not it might be hard to get repops in which case their deep tubs are a great alternative). It's a pretty straightforward fab deal, and you gain just over 2" pretty easily, enough to fit a 335, tucked in, very sexy.

Great cars guys, have a blast with them. Oh, one more note on the back seat, it gets REALLY tight back there with a tub job, it's small to begin with, but you can run a rear seat with the 3-Link and tubs, we are about to start on my own 70 to show this is reality. Of course, no one is ever going to be allowed to sit back there, the car has a cage and it just isn't safe as a result of that.

Mark

[dgoetz]

I had my G/W Cat 5 leaf spr rear sup replaced on my 68 Camaro with a Air Ride Tech tri 4link with QA1's with 220# sprs. I still couldn't get the rear low enough without rasing the upper shock bracket 2" above the frame putting them into the trunk and then enclosing them with a piece from DSE. I run 315/35x17 Autocross slicks on a narrowed axle and I am very happy with the improvement over the Cat 5 leafs. With the Qa1's I can adjust the spr rate and ride height separatly as compared to the Air Ride Shocks. Did have to reroute my exhaust to end turned down in frt of the rear axle because there is no way easy to get it through rear assy. It was $2200.00 + labor for the project.

[baz67]

I had my G/W Cat 5 leaf spr rear sup replaced on my 68 Camaro with a Air Ride Tech tri 4link with QA1's with 220# sprs. I still couldn't get the rear low enough without rasing the upper shock bracket 2" above the frame putting them into the trunk and then enclosing them with a piece from DSE. I run 315/35x17 Autocross slicks on a narrowed axle and I am very happy with the improvement over the Cat 5 leafs. With the Qa1's I can adjust the spr rate and ride height separatly as compared to the Air Ride Shocks. Did have to reroute my exhaust to end turned down in frt of the rear axle because there is no way easy to get it through rear assy. It was $22000.00 + labor for the project.

How do you adjust your spring rate with shocks or do you change the springs?

[dgoetz]

From what I understand, if you want to lower your car with air shocks you either lower the air press (which softens them) or remount them higher on the car which is alot of work. With coil overs I calculated the spr rate that i need and by turning the spr adjuster I can lower or raise the car and also adjust the weight to a degree on each wheel. It comes in real handy when you are cross weighting your car for comp or just the best possible handling. If I do need to change spring rates it is still just a matter of taking the shocks off and replacing them with no special tools. With both of them you can control the dampening with adj knobs. Even when I reinstalled my frt sway bar I found I was changing the weight on the frt wheels from side to side. I had to lenthen the spacer on one side of susp in order to keep the preload equal on each side and the weight the same.

[Marcus SC&C]

We`ll have the G-Bar shown on our site later this week with some more info on it. To confirm, Chris Alston co-designed the AirBar for ART. At ART`s Advanced Seminar at SEMA H&R Chris was there also to answer questions about it. Yes,it`s basically a coil over AirBar. It`s not the setup I`d use if I were building an actual class racing road racecar from scratch but it`s actual street and road course performance even with air ride (which I`m still not 100% convinced is *quite as good* as steel springs for performance use) clearly shows it`s got a big performance advantage over old school leaf springs.
It`s one heck of a lot of bang for the buck IMO. Install is super easy. No cutting,no welding to the frame or body and it uses mostly existing bolt holes. I watched the ART crew install the AirBar version at SEMA H&R in about an hour! Now of course they`d had the unit in the car before and the 2 brackets were already welded to the axle tubes but still! The brackets give 6" (!) of ride height adjustment before you even start playing with the preload of the coil over springs so you can have your ride height any way you want it. The geometry is very benign for a converging 4 link with a minimum of binding,good antisquat and sensible rear RC height (unlike the factory GM and Ford systems). I like the fact that the tubular structure that mounts the upper arms and coilovers triangulates and stiffens the rear unibody of the car also. The Mustang and 1st Gen versions are the only ones available for immediate shipping right now but I understand they have other versions in the works. Mark SC&C

[rob07002]

Any more info on this setup?

[ProdigyCustoms]

We sell Chris Alston now.

[rob07002]

What do you think about it Frank?

PM me a price when you get a chance. I also nee to talk to you about a Moser rear...

[Gandalf]

The brackets give 6" (!) of ride height adjustment before you even start playing with the preload of the coil over springs so you can have your ride height any way you want it. Mark SC&C

Mark - can you clarify what you mean? Where is the height adjustment (other than the coilovers?)

Thanks,
G.

[Marcus SC&C]

Sorry that was a goof on my part. The 6" of extra adj. applies to Alston`s coilover rear conversion not the G Bar. They both came out around the same time. The G Bar still has nearly 3" of adj. in the coilovers alone though. Unless you want to lay frame or run the car at Baja you`re still covered. :twothumbs Mark SC&C

[Gandalf]

Ah - thanks for clarification Mark. I guess if I wanted a more I could relocate those upper shock mounts inboard a little? I don't want to lay frame but I do want a very low stance.

I'm also interested in running a wide tire back there (as well as being low) so I'm about to add DSE mini-tubs (and roll the lips). Have you had any experience with a wide wheel/tire with the G-Bar? Looks like Frank is up to something for that but I'm looking to see what interference people have seen.

Similarly I wondered if the G-Bar not having a panhard bar like others was a concern? Should I car for a 95% street-driven car? I note the description says "The canted four bar precisely locates the rear axle without requiring a panhard bar".

And lastly - would there be any advantage adding swivel-type connectors to the 4 links?

Cheers for the help.
G.

[ProdigyCustoms]

No need for "Johnny Joints" In a triangle 4 link design. We will see what happens with Amir's (Venomous) bars. In the meantime, we are fixing to get into on for Lisa's ProjectEmptyNest which will be running monster 355s. I am trying something a bit different for clearance on that one.

this whole thing makes me a little bit confused. The lower link bar goes into the front spring pocket. I do not know how we have been able to fit 335s on leaf spring cars, and why the the 1" bar that is thinner then the 2 1/2" leaf spring hits. I wish I had Amirs car in front of me.

As I said we will see what Amir runs into, and will try one ourselves in house with even more tire.

[MonzaRacer]

Now for the fun part if you want to install ShockWaves later on you can.
As for the veracity of Air versus springs, The coil over you would have to jack it up or put it on a lift or such for a minor adjustment.
Now say you want to increase your spring stiffness(ie Rate) say a 1/2 turn,,,, with Air you simply add a few pounds of air. The ShockWaves are adjustable on compression and rebound if double adjustable.
Now you have coil overs you would ahve to lay on the ground and work on the car,,,and if you need to readjust to lower or soften the ride home, on ART simply lower the pressures a few pounds. The adaptability of the Air Ride is so much more than coil or leafs.
Since if I wanted to autocross my Monza after it runs I would need several sets of springs to get it right or some custom coil overs to achieve what Iam trying to do.
I am so broke that building anything is a challenge but it will run and drive by September if at all possible.
I also intend to have the rear suspension modded to a Air Bar type set up but be able to use either Shockwaves or CoolRide.
For a 3000lb car with a smallis engine (283) I hope to have a good mix and heck even if I can locate some 305 aluminum 'Vette heads I may be able to remove some weight and gain some power I hope.
I also have a set of big valve Double Humps but I am not sure they will do what I want, but I may have to use them at first.
BUT my suspension is gonna get some upgraded A Arms from SC&C as Mark is an old H body owner and has a few tales to tell and we have been brainstorming about what might work for me.
The fun part is designing a rear suspension with car sitting in gravel in driveway! I am also trying to work out my ways to tie the car together too.
Oh and the vapor for a budget is a sure fire way to make it crawl along in the building process.

[Marcus SC&C]

Gandalf, I think you`ll find you can get it as low as you want with the current setup. Remember this system was designed in conjunction with Air Ride Technologies! If it`s not low enough you can easily switch to shorter springs also. The compressed length of the shocks will allow the car to all but drag on the pavement.
Honestly most of our G Bar clients are running a 275 or 295 rear tire. It`s a package designed to offer really good performance and adj. ride height/dampening etc. for a very reasonable price and to also be super simple install at home.
For the 1% of 1% guys,probably 20% of the guys on PT.com! :headbang:
who want even more it`s a great foundation for mods too.
As Frank said the lower links are smaller in cross section than the stock springs and mount in the stock location so you`ll gain a little tire clearance (about 5/8") but not much. A 315 should be no problem with the DSE tubs but larger than that will require carefull measuring,perfect backspacing and possibly a little tweaking. There are several G Bar builds going on right now who plan to run 335/345 etc. tires so keep an eye on the forums and I`m sure you`ll be able to pick up some more info on it.
If there was ever a suspension design that usually benefits from Johnny Joints or similar joints it is a triangulated 4 link. Any suspension engineer will back me up on this. It is possible to design a triangulated 4 link so that binding is greatly reduced vs. factory offerings though. That`s what Alston/ART have done here. JJ ends would be of some benefit but on the G Bar they`d just be icing on the cake. The clean sheet geometry and combination of high durometer rubber and poly graphite bushings does a really good job of keeping binding to a minimum. The angled upper links locate the rear laterally and do a better job of it than similar factory 3 links so you`re in good shape there. Even on the race track they`re getting very impressive performance out of this set up right out of the box. That and it rides better than stock springs. It`s hard to beat a combo like that. Mark SC&C

[Gandalf]

Thanks again Mark - that was the best detailed explanation I've read on this setup. Helps a LOT when you haven't seen the thing in-the-flesh and you are trying to put your own project together one-informed-decision-at-a-time. Now to run off an start a new thread on my FRONT-end questions..... :)

[Vegas69]

I plan to run a 345mm with the gbar setup. Mock up is soon so I'll post what we run into.

[OneslowZ28]

Keep me informed on that and very good info mark Thanks.

Funny how a thread picks up after 5 months lol

[Flash68]

I plan to run a 345mm with the gbar setup. Mock up is soon so I'll post what we run into.

Vegas, can you tell me what you are running for a rear? Narrowed I assume? You running DSE minitubs?

thanks

[Vegas69]

I am running a narrowed rear end and DSE mini tubs. Still need to measure for rear end and install tubs. Hopefully mocked up this month.

[bigtyme1]

I'm interested as well howw this holds up, A good friend has convinced me the G BAR is a much better deal them the DSE Quad link. I just want to make sure I can get 335's in there and beable to adjust my ride.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I got word today from Air Ride that the Street Challenge kit for Project EmptyNest is on the way. We will be doing a full install, story and report back directly to Air Ride about any possible interference, if any issues with big tires. We will start using the standard bars, and see what, if any, mods need to be done. We should know something in the next two weeks

[Marcus SC&C]

It`ll be interesting to hear what you come up with Frank. Chassisworks says a 295 is the largest tire you should run to play it safe. Since a 315 fits with offset shackles and leaf springs (with mini tubs of course) they also have to fit with the G Bar since the lower links bolt where the leaf springs were and have a narrower section width than the springs. The even bigger rubber is where it may get dicey. Mark SC&C

[ProdigyCustoms]

Hey marcus, we have a few leaf spring cars with DSE tubs running 335s, so as you have mentioned before, what clear leafs, should clear smaller bars.

[Flash68]

Hey marcus, we have a few leaf spring cars with DSE tubs running 335s, so as you have mentioned before, what clear leafs, should clear smaller bars.


Frank... Vegas...

Any updates from either of you on this?

[ProdigyCustoms]

A couple updates. First, we now have Vegas Car as it simply was not getting worked on where it was at. Second, there is a thread devoted to this subject here.

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33353

[Flash68]

A couple updates. First, we now have Vegas Car as it simply was not getting worked on where it was at. Second, there is a thread devoted to this subject here.

https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33353


Awesome news and work! Thank you, Frank!