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mikesz
01-12-2007, 08:57 PM
I'm starting to collect ideas for a cage to put in my '67 Camaro. The car will primarily be a street car with some Track use. I'm looking at the April 2002 PHR where Mark Stielow detailed the install of the cage in the Mule. He states "Having a removable crossbar on my rollcages is nice, so when the car is not being used for competition, I have full access to the interior." He never actually says this is to allow rear seat passengers though. Does anybody have any more insight into this?

Mike

Bowtie racing
01-13-2007, 05:06 AM
And where does seatbelts mount ?

BonzoHansen
01-13-2007, 08:25 AM
I wouldn't want my rear passengers' heads to hit a roll bar.

PhillipM
01-13-2007, 10:30 AM
And where does seatbelts mount ?

I believe that car has regular 3 points in it along with the capability of 4 points. I could be wrong.

mikesz
01-13-2007, 12:18 PM
I wouldn't want my rear passengers' heads to hit a roll bar.

Which is why I am asking this question. Iíve read allot of posts where people mostly assume or pass on second hand word of mouth information that a roll cage automatically eliminates back seat passengers. Iíve also read that you should not even drive a roll bar equipped car without a helmet! Obviously many people here disagree with that one...



https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2007/01/leadimage-1.jpg

sharp67
01-13-2007, 02:51 PM
So whats the difference if you hit your head on the cage or an interior metal part of the car? I suppose you elliminate some of the distance between your head and the object, but it would be like getting in a car with a much smaller passenger compartment and you would not have that distance to start with.

rockdogz
01-13-2007, 05:33 PM
I have another horizontal bar across the rear package tray tying the rear bars together, and will use it to mount harnesses for the back seat passengers if I have any. They may not be that comfortable, but they will be belted in TIGHT if they ride back there...

baz67
01-13-2007, 10:08 PM
So whats the difference if you hit your head on the cage or an interior metal part of the car? I suppose you elliminate some of the distance between your head and the object, but it would be like getting in a car with a much smaller passenger compartment and you would not have that distance to start with.

The roll bar leaves dent in your head or your head leave an impression in the sheet metal. Either way will hurt, but one hurts much less.

BonzoHansen
01-14-2007, 08:44 AM
The roll bar leaves dent in your head or your head leave an impression in the sheet metal. Either way will hurt, but one hurts much less.
Plus if I'm the guy in the back, I'd rather head into the front seat, not a bar.

Samckitt
01-15-2007, 07:19 AM
Here is part of an article from the July 2003 Chevy High Performance:

Mark didn't pull any punches with the interior either. Perhaps the biggest challenge was tucking the 10 point rollcage up out ot the way to allow use of the back seat.

Another part:

What may not be immediately noticeable is the 10 point cage because Mark spent hours adjusting the tubing until he had tucked it almost out of sight. Detroit Speed & Engineering also came up with the custom dash pod mounting the auto meter instruments......

Mean 69
01-15-2007, 10:15 AM
Kind of an interesting note on this, folks have the impression that our rear suspension setup can't be used with a back seat, which isn't true. In order to show that, I am putting a back seat in the second gen we are doing for the shop, and this car has an eight point cage in it, as tight as you can possibly get to the roofline, pillars, etc, basically just like the Mule approach. I sat in the back area to start fitting things out last week for the interior guy who will be building the seat, etc, and two things immediately jumped out. One, the rear seat area of a pony car is incredibly small, I'm not a big guy and there's little chance I'd be comfortable back there for more than a trip to the local store. If you have small kids, it might be better, but adults? Nuh-uh. Two, you cannot move your head more than a few inches when in the back without hitting your head on the downbars, period. Even with really good padding such as being offered these days, NO ONE will be riding in the back seat of this car, not even my small kids, ever.

Still by (un?) popular demand, the car will have a rear seat, and a cage. My strong opinion is that you should never let anyone in the back seat of one of these cars if it has a cage or roll bar.

Mark

rockdogz
01-16-2007, 08:26 AM
Kind of an interesting note on this, folks have the impression that our rear suspension setup can't be used with a back seat, which isn't true. In order to show that, I am putting a back seat in the second gen we are doing for the shop, and this car has an eight point cage in it, as tight as you can possibly get to the roofline, pillars, etc, basically just like the Mule approach. I sat in the back area to start fitting things out last week for the interior guy who will be building the seat, etc, and two things immediately jumped out. One, the rear seat area of a pony car is incredibly small, I'm not a big guy and there's little chance I'd be comfortable back there for more than a trip to the local store. If you have small kids, it might be better, but adults? Nuh-uh. Two, you cannot move your head more than a few inches when in the back without hitting your head on the downbars, period. Even with really good padding such as being offered these days, NO ONE will be riding in the back seat of this car, not even my small kids, ever.

Still by (un?) popular demand, the car will have a rear seat, and a cage. My strong opinion is that you should never let anyone in the back seat of one of these cars if it has a cage or roll bar.

Mark
That's strange, my kids' heads aren't anywhere near the down bars. I will check it out when I get the car back, and if there's any chance of contact then they won't ride. Without a helmet. But, strapped in tight I think they'll be ok until they are a lot taller.

parsonsj
01-16-2007, 10:47 AM
I went the same route: 10 pt cage and back seat. My smallest (4'6, 65 lbs.) fits, and with a properly tightened 4 pt harness he'll be ok for awhile. My oldest (5'3, 115 lbs) won't.

The damn kids grew up while the car was being built! My plan would have worked much better if it hadn't taken 6+ years to finish.

jp

Mean 69
01-16-2007, 08:09 PM
The damn kids grew up while the car was being built!

Yep, that has a tendancy for happening. They don't stay small very long, and if mine were indeed as small as they were three years ago, with the right harnesses, etc, I "might" have taken them on some trips around the fairgrounds at the annual car shows, etc. Not now. And honestly, this isn't an exaggeration, bodies move in ways you wouldn't believe in wrecks. I know a guy that was part of a safety crew on a road course when a car wrecked pretty hard. Five point harness, they couldn't at first figure out why the bottom of the steering wheel had a huge dent in it. It was from the top of the guys helmet. Did I mention five point harness?

Not a scare tactic for all of you twenty-somethings that are still convinced you are indestructable, it's just that I'm not twenty something anymore.

Mark

Bow Tie 67
01-16-2007, 09:55 PM
Ok, that 5 point ^^^ must have been installed incorrectly. I'm debating on a roll bar, but would rather wait and see how the car does on a road course. I'm considering ideas on how to mount a 5 point without a roll bar. I'm thinking of a bar welded across and underneath the package tray area ( 69 Camaro ) and then supports down to the frame rail in the trunk. Any thoughts or ideas?

parsonsj
01-17-2007, 04:44 AM
I'm considering ideas on how to mount a 5 point without a roll bar. I'm thinking of a bar welded across and underneath the package tray area ( 69 Camaro ) and then supports down to the frame rail in the trunk.That's almost what I did: I welded tabs to my x-brace and then made a horizontal bar that bolts to it. My rear seat straps wrap around that.

jp

bookends
01-17-2007, 05:25 PM
this isn't an exaggeration, bodies move in ways you wouldn't believe in wrecks. I know a guy that was part of a safety crew on a road course when a car wrecked pretty hard. Five point harness, they couldn't at first figure out why the bottom of the steering wheel had a huge dent in it. It was from the top of the guys helmet. Did I mention five point harness?

when I was in the Airforce we had a f-15 that came down with a brake failure and had to catch the barrier, the front landing gear was still off the ground when the hook caught and slammed the plane down. the pilot's helmet scratched the canopy and busted the heads up display, both being an arms length away. he was wearing a mil spec harness. I don't know if he had it adjusted incorrectly or if his shoulders slipped through the harness but there's no way his head should have hit both objects and still been connected to his shoulders.

71dusterdan
01-17-2007, 07:06 PM
i was thinking about the mule this week. I remember the mule having 1 5/8 tubing, okay for nhra, but what about everybody else. Steilow is known for putting his cars through the paces at many venues, how does he pass tech with that small tube? Or is it just for his piece of mind and he runs slower classes? The new hot rod FBOMB has 1 3/4 and they are building it to do everything. I want to do everything but am stuck with 1 5/8.

Bowtie racing
01-17-2007, 11:37 PM
I was planning useing the DSE gage purely just for racy looks with 3 pt belts. But rear seat,yes i want take my buddies for cruise and some fun. What happens if i take a good slide and hit pothole or somehthing small and the car swings enough,does my friends hit their head to back bars???

Mean 69
01-18-2007, 10:52 AM
I just read the Hot Rod article on the F Bomb, they went over the cage fabrication, and it is one of the very nicest cages I have ever seen. A typical road race purpose built car takes a slightly different approach in some areas, F Bomb is mainly a drag car, but they did an incredible job on this. Really nice.

The rules for the various santioning bodies are all over the map in terms of tube diameter, wall thickness, allowable tubes types and materials (i.e. DOM, HREW welded steel tubing, or Cro-Mo). I don't think you can build a cage to meet them all, and you don't need to if you aren't going racing. However, with all that said, for the weight of our cars (generally over 3000 lbs), using 1 3/4", 0.120" wall DOM steel tubing will almost always cover the minimally acceptable standards for materials. It's not cheap, but if you ever "think" you will turn the car into a racer, using this will reduce the possibility of having to replace the whole cage to meet a particular sanctioning body rules. That said, most of the events such as One Lap, Open track Challenge, Silver State, the new and gaining popularity Z1Z and Z2Z events, standing mile, etc, don't have specific rules for the cage construction.

Mark

BonzoHansen
01-18-2007, 11:08 AM
Ok, that 5 point ^^^ must have been installed incorrectly. I'm debating on a roll bar, but would rather wait and see how the car does on a road course. I'm considering ideas on how to mount a 5 point without a roll bar. I'm thinking of a bar welded across and underneath the package tray area ( 69 Camaro ) and then supports down to the frame rail in the trunk. Any thoughts or ideas?
So, you would attach the belts to the bar under the package tray? What about belt stretch? They do stretch, thus the F15 story or the helmet into the wheel story. I bet if you called Simpson, they would tell you that is not a good setup. IIRC, they said that was part of the Earnhardt deal, the belts were mis-installed and over stretched, and even ripped IIRC.

Bowtie racing, I would not install a cage for looks. If what I have read and been told is correct, you need a harness (not a 3 point) if you use a cage so you don’t slide around in an accident. Will the guys in your back set have seat belts?

rockdogz
01-18-2007, 12:29 PM
So, you would attach the belts to the bar under the package tray? What about belt stretch? They do stretch, thus the F15 story or the helmet into the wheel story. I bet if you called Simpson, they would tell you that is not a good setup. IIRC, they said that was part of the Earnhardt deal, the belts were mis-installed and over stretched, and even ripped IIRC.

Bowtie racing, I would not install a cage for looks. If what I have read and been told is correct, you need a harness (not a 3 point) if you use a cage so you donít slide around in an accident. Will the guys in your back set have seat belts?
That's why I installed the rear bar above the package tray, for the rear harnesses.

BonzoHansen
01-19-2007, 01:25 PM
That's why I installed the rear bar above the package tray, for the rear harnesses.
Gotcha. Are there headrests or something to keep their heads from snapping back & hitting that bar?

rockdogz
01-19-2007, 01:35 PM
Gotcha. Are there headrests or something to keep their heads from snapping back & hitting that bar?

It's pretty far back - close to the rear window.

Charley Lillard
01-25-2007, 07:51 PM
Yes the Mule has 1 5/8 tubing and yes I could see where someone in the back seat could hit there head on a side bar. I would never want to ride in the back seat of a first gen Camaro anyway. Yes stielow drives has cars as hard as anyone. The Mule is a Pro-touring car, not a all out race car.

MonzaRacer
02-08-2007, 11:12 PM
I was thinking of making a bolt in cross bar to go behind passenger heads in my Monza but if any of you ever noticed the rear seat area is very tiny for people.
I an still planning my cage for my Monza, but I still want to be able to brace my seats and be able to recline them when on road trips.
But I found a head rest that sort of wraps around the rear passengers heads and is removeable if needed. I really dont want visible bars and have worked out the upper halo bar so as to hide it inside and have padding on it too, under the head liner and body panels.
I figured on making some interior part from aluminum sheet then upolster it.
My Interior is trash by sunlight so making changes and covering my cage isnt a problem.
My cage is going to tie my car together too.
another thought I had was to make hoops to go behind the front seats that are bolt in and have them have posts on a cross bar thats behind the front seats, and then tie int o a cross bar in the roof and tie int ot he sides too.
I figured on using the heavier 1 7/8 so as to meet some venue requirements. Only running a 283 for now should also keep me in check.
I have been looking into using a remote turbo set up but thats in the future too.
I am going to build my car to be driven.
I will try to get some diagrams drawn up and see if anyone thinks I am crazy.
Lee

Steve1968LS2
02-09-2007, 09:55 PM
95% of the cars with cages should not have people riding in the backseat. Rockdog at least put 4-points in the back of his.

I get sad when I see a roll bar and only lap belts. Just a tragedy waiting to happen. No temptation to ride someone in the back of my car.. lol

71dusterdan
02-10-2007, 08:13 PM
charley lillard, you came close to answering my question, about the mule cage. stielow in the past has built camaros to run in the one lap of america and possibly other events. so does he have to settle for lesser classes when competing with a 1 5/8 cage or do they overlook it because of who he is. my cage is going in as a 1 5/8 and i will have to run slower than what i had wanted, unless they allow the greater wall thickness to compensate. if nothing else it is piece of mind. thanks, Dan

Patrick
02-11-2007, 05:40 AM
I just installed the DSE roll bar...and the one thing I noticed is how low of an angle the down tubes are relative to the rear seat. If you go to Tom's (Rockdogz) page and look at his bar, the down tubes run a much higher angle toward the rear-- which gives a little bit more room for the backseat.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Steve68
02-11-2007, 06:17 AM
I talked to Stacey about there bar set up at the Turkey run, we came to the conclusion that adults would hit there heads on them but would be OK for kids for a certain amount time,

I was just thinking about taking the car to Takash and getting a 4 point with a removable harness bar, I really want the harness bar, but kind of disinterested in the bars for street driving, so right now its a toss up,

Patrick
02-11-2007, 06:30 AM
I talked to Stacey about there bar set up at the Turkey run, we came to the conclusion that adults would hit there heads on them but would be OK for kids for a certain amount time,

I was just thinking about taking the car to Takash and getting a 4 point with a removable harness bar, I really want the harness bar, but kind of disinterested in the bars for street driving, so right now its a toss up,

Steve,

Unfortunately, Tim isn't bending tubes for rollbars/cages anymore...He's too busy building full tube chasis. He is using a guy from Titusville/Merrit Island for that kind of work-- Brian Johnson. Brian does really good work--but I just got impatient....Send me a PM if you want his #.

Patrick

Charley Lillard
02-11-2007, 07:32 AM
charley lillard, you came close to answering my question, about the mule cage. stielow in the past has built camaros to run in the one lap of america and possibly other events. so does he have to settle for lesser classes when competing with a 1 5/8 cage or do they overlook it because of who he is. my cage is going in as a 1 5/8 and i will have to run slower than what i had wanted, unless they allow the greater wall thickness to compensate. if nothing else it is piece of mind. thanks, Dan

I will ask Mark when I talk to him but the One Lap was the main events he had entered these cars at. I'm sure he got no special treatment and the Thrasher didn't even have a full cage.

James OLC
02-11-2007, 10:57 AM
There is no cage requirement for the One Lap. Most open highway organizations (ie the SSCC) do not require roll bars for coupes until the 130-150 mph (165 max) classes and cages are required for the 160 mph and above classes. Minimum tubing requirements for most full bodied (stock) cars is 1.75 OD 0.090 or 0.120. I am not sure how flexible they would be with that.

I asked Mark about this last week and his feedback was that while there are no rules for the One Lap an 8 point cage is the best although a pain to integrate, especially with creature comforts.

We are going to start the cage build for the OLC project at the end of the month - it will be a full SSCC and NASA legal cage.

Steve68
02-11-2007, 06:24 PM
Patrick, I know Brian, He bought a guy that was on here's 69 at the end of last year, but I don't have his number anymore so throw it to me PLS, What about Tom Callis whats he doing?????

I always catch Bri at the track, but I don't to get there much,

Steve Chryssos
02-11-2007, 07:31 PM
FYI: During our accident, my wife's throat impacted the soft, cushy dashpad which led to internal bleeding, which led to swelling, which led to suffocation. That, in turn, led to intubation.

Any of the objects in your car--soft or hard--can kill you a lot including the bag of groceries in the back seat.

Here is the mojo as I see it:
1) Don't install a roll cage unless ALL passengers will be wearing 5 point harnesses.
2) And Inversely: Don't install racing harnesses unless the shoulder harnesses are anchored to a rollcage.
3) Design the cage/seat arrangement so that heads are not within 2 inches of any tube. That might require sinking the seats to achieve the necessary clearance. Mine are sunk 1".

I also eliminated the utterly useless back seat in my Camaro. I also quit smoking 150 days ago. As I see it, that roll cage is more likely to save my life before it will kill me.

Steve68
02-11-2007, 08:49 PM
1. there is no cushy pad in 68's
2. then how can you do a track day,
3 You should have laft Tuna at home for the 06 PT
4 WTF, how are we supposed to have a dual purpose car!!

Don't mind me I missed the Police at the Grammys, and had to sit through all the R&B lovey, lovey, lovey bull****!!!!!

Steve Chryssos
02-12-2007, 11:43 AM
Sure there's a cushy pad in a 68 (Bottom in pic)
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

As for if and how these things should be accomplished, my car was built before all of the questions got asked. Given a chance to start over (or on the next car) I would (will) do some things different.

But you gotta ask: How do they sell 180mph capable Porsches and Lambos without rollcages? It's the same question as: How can you drive 50 mph in a car with a rollcage, but no helmet?

The answer is the same in both cases: RISK!

So I've got this 140-something mph hot rod. Do I worry about going 140 without a cage and harnesses or 40mph with a cage and harnesses? As for track days, I have yet to encounter any racing environment that has been strict about safety. But then again, my car has a cage and harnesses. I'm not sure what happens if you don't have these safety items.

Steve68
02-12-2007, 12:49 PM
But here's the what IF, I'm driving down the road and I get say, get hit in the side and I have my 2 girls in the back, and they have lap belts on, depending on the side of the car we get it's possable that they're going to fold at the waist and the possibality that one could contact the bars on the side, not a good thing, so what to do, put the bars in and wrap them like you did????

Stu Seitz
02-12-2007, 03:40 PM
But here's the what IF, I'm driving down the road and I get say, get hit in the side and I have my 2 girls in the back, and they have lap belts on, depending on the side of the car we get it's possable that they're going to fold at the waist and the possibality that one could contact the bars on the side, not a good thing, so what to do, put the bars in and wrap them like you did????

Get a bolt in roll bar, so you can take it out. If you're thinking about getting a roll bar or cage that still allows the use of the back seats, it's probably compromising the design of the cage or bar anyways. Its sounds like you want a dual purpose car, so it most likely won't see any real, wheel to wheel competition. A bolt it bar or cage should be ok for the occasional HPDE. Either that or maybe you can get a group buy on helmets for your girls.

Steve68
02-13-2007, 03:24 AM
Yea, maybe I can get the bolt in chrome plated too,

hell, I should sell my car, buy a 80s TA or camaro put 15x8 and 15x10's with big off set jack up the rear,

I don't plan on running any rubbing, paint swapping racing events but yes I plan on tracking the car, I up to 4 weeks of vacation a year, I'm traveling!

Steve Chryssos
02-13-2007, 06:25 AM
Girls? That's a different story. If you need wheels for cruisin with the ladies then get a big ol' 66 Caddy convertible. You and nine of your closest friends slidin down the boulevard.

Seriously, there is NO comprehensive solution that encompasses high speed track days AND casual driving with small children. You must prioritize. My child is not allowed to ride in my Camaro, but we will rig "Latch" loops so that she can ride in the back of our 65 Riviera. Two cars is the only real solution.

Roll cage tubing or not, you can get hurt badly.

Charley Lillard
02-13-2007, 07:46 AM
Congrats on the non smoking......Life just got simpler.

Steve68
02-13-2007, 08:49 AM
So maybe the transfering the Nova from Drag racing status to road racer/track day auto might be a better car, hmmm

and imagine no need for the chrome roll bar!

Damn True
02-13-2007, 09:17 AM
3) Design the cage/seat arrangement so that heads are not within 2 inches of any tube. That might require sinking the seats to achieve the necessary clearance. Mine are sunk 1".



Steve,

Could you elaborate on the sunken seat thing?

Steve1968LS2
02-13-2007, 10:23 AM
Steve,

Could you elaborate on the sunken seat thing?

I'm sure he means lowering the seat so that your nogin doesn't hit the halo bar.

Personally a roll-bar or cage, to me, means the backseat is useless and in most cases unsafe.

Damn True
02-13-2007, 10:56 AM
I'm sure he means lowering the seat so that your nogin doesn't hit the halo bar.

Personally a roll-bar or cage, to me, means the backseat is useless and in most cases unsafe.

Pretty sure that's what he's talkin about as well. I want to know what he did, how and why.

Point "b" established ad-nauseum.

Steve68
02-13-2007, 12:28 PM
I'm done with topic, thanks I'm out

71dusterdan
02-14-2007, 06:52 PM
that was a tough call for me, i wanted a dual purpose car, and was not capable of looking at the potential risks. that is until i looked threw the archives and got an education. thanks guys. my daughter will not be allowed to ride until she is large enough to ride in the front seat with the harnesses. i have seen the light , the rear struts are straight, the harnesses will be in it and properly mounted and used every time. i did end up compromising the seats, it was a purchase made prematurely, but they are getting some really stout mounts and will still have full harnesses.. oh and the cage is being made stoughter than what i would have originally guessed. you guys forcing the safety and the realistic views down our throats....thank you! Dan

Damn True
02-15-2007, 09:01 AM
Steve,

Could you elaborate on the sunken seat thing?

Bumping in hopes that Steve chimes in again.

Steve Chryssos
02-15-2007, 09:29 AM
Elminated Corbeau seat brackets entirely and used 1/2" square tube with tabs welded on to achieve desired seat height.

maro2nv
02-15-2007, 11:42 AM
Mike, check into chris alstons chassisworks. I have a 68 camaro and i am getting there 8 point cage and they have the rear strut bars that tuck up against the roof for more room. My buddy has the same kit in his car and i ride in the back with no problem and im 6 foot. Hope this helps. www.cachassisworks.com (http://www.cachassisworks.com)
-josh