Ford 4.6L vs. 5.0L Modular Engine

[Krashyman]

We've been planning on putting the 4.6L modular engine (direct replacement for the the 03-04 Mach 1 Mustang) in our pro-touring Comet. Seems like a good fit . . . nice power (but not great) and easy for repairs (a breakdown on the highway and the nearest Ford dealer can fix it).

Does anyone have views on whether it would be worth it to do the 5.0L "Cammer" modular engine instead. You get another 100 ponies and 45 ft/lbs of torque, but at a cost of almost $15,000 (vs. about $6,000 for the 4.6L).

A quick look at the numbers and specs for the two engines can be found at:
http://www.fordracingparts.com/crateengine/modularcobra.asp

An article about the 5.0L Cammer (with some comparisons to the 4.6L) can be found at:

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2002/11/fr100/

Aside from the numbers, I'm looking for someone who has had experience with both engines (or who has some ideas based on their knoweldge of engines) and can provide their views.

Thanks in advance!

Josh

[ANIMOSITY]

the cammer is a nice peice, but for the price you could go with an 03 Cobra motor. Its almost the same lower end as that MACH but blown(manley rods are factoy), and you can get it cheap on Ebay. Also, If weight is a prob, the 93-98 cobra,and mark blocks are alium, were the later are iron. The alium blocks are Teskid blocks, that are from Italy, and the best part is the older blocks and cranks, can handle over 1000hp from the factory. The rods and pistons in those blocks, are junk, they can only hanlde 450hp.
Also if your looking at the Mach motot, the linclon Aviator has basiclly the same motor, and an outstanding intake.
If you really like the bigger cubics inches, you can look at 5.4 motor. The Navigator (later model) is a DOHC 5.4 that is pretty bad. the only thing about them is the intake is junk, but Sullivan (you will need to goggle it) make a badass intake for that motor, that you can run a carb or fuel rails.If you like the carb set-up, you can do a dist drive conversion to the vavle cover, and run an earlier wiring harness and ECU.
I could go on for awhile, but hope this helps.If I can help, ask away.

[fast Ed]

I'm sure you could get that 100 hp (or more) for less than $9K in mods on top of the price of the Mach I engine. That one is basically the same spec. as the 99 and 01 Cobra engine, before they were supercharged.

The Mach I engine, with a good exhaust and the right axle ratio, would be fun in the Comet.


cheers
Ed N.

[BRIAN]

I have a 2003 S/C Cobra engine in my latest project. I just sold another brand new one for $7200. Honestly they are not worth the trouble. They weigh more than a FORD 460 and are even larger in dimensions. It costs more to build HP, etc.

If you are spending 15k on an engine look at Keith Craft one of the sponsors and see what they can get you for same or less cash. You can even have FI or blower but use a conventional 2v motor. Save 200lbs and make more HP.


By the way Kar Kraft sells Ford engines at huge discount. For that $$$ you can get a new blown Shelby engine if you are stuck on the 4v deal.

[Krashyman]

Thanks for everone's comments -- as always, very very helpful.

I think we are stuck on the idea of a 4v modular mustang engine. It was sort of the concept that was part of the project from the beginning. So, while it will cost a little more for the same power as some other engines, I think that's the way we're going.

My feeling right now is that we're going to take the leap, go the next step, and get past the 4.6L. Your comments made me look to see about the 5.4L in addition to the 5.0L Cammer. The 5.4L engine actually is being used (supercharged) in the 2007 SVT Shelby -- and it also is now available as a crate engine. I also didn't realize that this engine is similar to the engine used in the Ford GT supercar (same 5.4L, same aluminum heads, but with an iron block instead of an aluminum one, and other differences).

So, I am down to two choices:

#1 the 5.0L "Cammer" engine, normally aspirated (and I would leave it this way for now), 400+ HP, 365 ft/lbs torque, aluminum/alloy block; or

#2 the already-supercharged 2007 5.4 L SVT Mustang Cobra engine, 500 HP (with supercharger), 480 ft/lbs torque, iron block

#1 would be great because you don't see a lot of people using that engine (it is not in any production models) and because it has a lot of power with normal breathing. #2 would be really cool because it's the most powerful engine offered in a production Mustang and has gobs of power (but I also understand the engine is quite heavy given the iron block).

So, boiling it down to these two choices only, assuming same cost, which one would you choose and why? The "why" is very important to me -- in other words, what are the reasons to choose #1 or #2.

Thanks again,
Josh

[ANIMOSITY]

I would choose the second one. As far as the Cammer, If down the road you decide you need more power, theres not alot of people that have played with them. Now the GT500 motor Evolution Performance already has a GT500 in the 9's with a few bolt-on. So that means someone has already done the R&D and there are parts out there for them, Aslo there is no replacement for displacment.

Heres a vid from evelution on there GT500

http://videos.streetfire.net/search/shelby/0/7d96c453-951a-4f95-8b67-989000e17ccb.htm

I Also think that you can build your own Dohc 5.4 yourself, for alot less then buying a crate motor. Check out http://www.karkraft.com/

[fast Ed]

#2 would be neat, if you could get the engine set back enough. The GT-500 weighs about 400 lbs. more than a Mustang GT, and a lot of that is the engine. Larger block (4.6 vs. 5.4) iron block rather than aluminium, and the weight of the Eaton M122 supercharger and associated bits.

I guess it really depends on your goals for the car. How nimble do you want it to be? You'll have your work cut out for you if that 5.4 SC engine is over the front suspension.

cheers,
Ed N.

[1970cuda]

Detroit Speed is building one
http://www.detroitspeed.com/projectpages/robynschluter/rschluter_main.htm

[Krashyman]

Thanks all. Looks like we're going to go with the 5.4L assuming we can confirm a few things. We agree with everyone's points about the 5.0L Cammer -- would be fun to do, but there would be issues. Also, after talking with the shop, we realized that the idea of this car was to have it be similar to a modern car that you could pick up from a dealer. Consistent with this, we wanted to use a stock motor -- and that's why we decided on the modular Mustang engine. When the project started last year, the 4.6 was the choice. Now, the 5.4 is perfect because it is the actual engine in a stock Mustang (granted, it's only in the special GT500), and so that's what we want to use.

The main issue is going to be the height of the engine -- particularly from the motor mounts to the top of the s/c. We're calling Ford Racing to get this info (it's not in their catalogue for this particular engine). The shop thinks we can make it work.

Another thing is the weight of the engine. As Ed and others have pointed out, the engine is a bit porky when it comes to its poundage. The good news is that the Comet apparently has a good amount of weight distribution in the rear and so the distribution should be much more even than the 2007 GT500 itself. As for weight over the front suspension, we hope to be able to have the engine sit in a good position so that the Art Morrison chassis and front suspension can handle it.

The shop (Woody's) is very excited about this change in the project, particularly given that there aren't many of these engines in resto-mods/pro-touring/whatever you want to call this type of car.

Thanks again for everyone's comments and help -- it is amazing how helpful everyone is on this site!

Josh

[ANIMOSITY]

Since it sounds like you will be going with the 5.4. I would recommed that you caontact Al Palpetino( Not sure of the spellin) I think his site is boss331.com. He is building some of the badest 5.4's in the land. He runs a 96 Cobra with an NA motor, that in in the 9's. I think he could help you out if you have anymore ??? .