Malitude on Chassis Dyno

[Charley Lillard]

Mark had it on the chassis dyno at Wheel to Wheel today. 93 octane, 14 lbs boost it made about 560rwhp and 600 ft lbs tq....Their computer program figures it should run 11.70's @132 if it could hook up.

[Hydratech®]

I have to believe, beyond any shadow of any doubt, that this stellar machine has MUCH more untapped potential in it. I had the opportunity to take a very good look at it saturday (at the W2W open house), and based upon what I know x what I saw, this thing could easily produce some much stronger numbers with some advanced tuning.

Any chance that Mark is "sand bagging it"? Is there a big $$ race impending? One of our customers, Monty Williams (http://www.twinturbocorvette.com) produced 1200 horse with his small block TT setup, and it wasn't all that much fundamentally different than Mark's Malitude. The numbers posted would be excellent for a non intercooled package running on a single whistler - hmmm...

[shmoov69]

That thing made good power. I thought it would be more, but still kick butt! Should run 10's tho, easy! Mine made 475rwhp and 575rwtq pig rich (not even on the O2 chart!) and ran 123 in the 1/4 and (on a much better pass) 103 in the 1/8 with 3.00 gear and a 1.64 sixty time.
Thanks for letting us know! Now everyone remeber.......he won't tell us if you all bash him for the #'s!!
LOL!

[Jagarang]

I hope mine can do so well!!

[Nine Ball]

Mark had it on the chassis dyno at Wheel to Wheel today. 93 octane, 14 lbs boost it made about 560rwhp and 600 ft lbs tq....Their computer program figures it should run 11.70's @132 if it could hook up.

I think you have a typo. It should read 10.70 @ 132. You could get there with a 1.70 60' time given that trap speed.

If W2W has anything to do with that turbo or engine setup, I'm pretty sure it is set up conservatively to make those numbers. They have a habit of putting together 1000+ rwhp LS1 turbo setups lately. Excellent shop

Tony

[Hydratech®]

Guys - please don't get me wrong here, as those rear wheel HP numbers are indeed fantastic! I do, however, believe that there is ATLEAST 20% more hiding under that (gorgeous) hood!

Yes, one must also acknowledge that "the light that burns brightly never burns long", indicating that at this current power level / state of tune, this incredibly crafted piece of machinery will also live to tell the tale, long after the big number machines have blown themselves to bits... If I had to hop in that thing and cruise it so SoCal tomorrow, I do know that it would be as cushy as a Cadi, pull 20 mpg the entire time, and kick just about anything's butt found along the way!!! :hail:

[JamesD]

Guys - please don't get me wrong here, as those rear wheel HP numbers are indeed fantastic! I do, however, believe that there is ATLEAST 20% more hiding under that (gorgeous) hood!


Charley can confim this, but i'm pretty sure that it was detuned(i guess for reliabilty), I think it made something like 1000hp when it was running race gas and race timing.

[nitrovette]

hydratech,i remember monty from the corvetteforum when he was building the vette,whats he up to now.

[BRIAN]

Once again unless owner expalins how car was set up and if this was test and tune session how can anybody comment? On the other hand I think everybody is really trying to be overly sensitive here?? So I will risk getting bashed by saying; approx $15-20k in engine built to produce high HP numbers should be laying down a lot higher numbers than that. You can buy a Shafiroff or World crate engine that would come pretty close to that at a lot less cash. Great workmanship and a stunning mechanical presence but was it built as a show car or driver? I think anybody reading those numbers would be disappointed given the complicated turbo set up. That said I also once again feel bad for Mark as it seems everybody is posting stuff for him that he might not want let out of the bag? Hey you know him not me, but if I build a car and a buddy posted a pic or post about a problem I had during shake down that could hurt my rep I wouldn't be too happy. Sorry but you guys are doing nothing but putting a question in peoples heads if these car's truly are runners? I will be a little more patient to read true numbers posted when he is done sorting. I wish him luck!!

[Charley Lillard]

The car is sorted. Mark knows I was gonna post the #'s. The car was meant to be driven. I suppose he could have bumped the timing, added more fuel and produced better #'s but what is the point ? It is set up to be very driveable but I guess that is a disappointment to some. It is probably about 750 hp at the flywheel with automatic trans and AC. Sounds like a fun car. This car was never destined to be a "How far can you take it" car. It was a place to put a engine destined for the Mule but the Mule was finished long before the engine was. I found this cool 64 Malibu project and Mark decided it would be fun to build something different with the engine that was supposed to go in the Mule. The Mule made 1021 hp and can make more but what is the point ? I have the boost dropped on the Mule to make about 800 hp and it is alot of fun. My ZL1 clone made 828rwhp but it was not something you could relax and drive. You had to pay close attention all the time. My 02 cents.

[jonny51]

The car turned out great,thanks for keeping us posted Charley!I hope mine turns out that nice.

[camcojb]

That said I also once again feel bad for Mark as it seems everybody is posting stuff for him that he might not want let out of the bag? Hey you know him not me, but if I build a car and a buddy posted a pic or post about a problem I had during shake down that could hurt my rep I wouldn't be too happy.


Believe me, the guy who posted the results knows Mark better than anyone else on this board and had his permission to do so. The explanation above says it all.

Jody

[Ralph LoGrasso]

I think those are great numbers. This car wasn't destined to be an all out race car, like Charley said. "Pro-Touring" refers to a car that can do everything well, including the car's street manners. I'm sure if Mark wanted to he could have built a hardcore streetfighter that could have made 1500hp, but that's not the purpose of the car (atleast it's not my interpretation of the purpose from reading the articles).

[Hydratech®]

I think the real key here is that the numbers generated are on pump gas, being the garbage that it is these days. To produce these types of power levels on the same wee that the SUV's feed on is indeed an exceptional accomplishment. In speaking with Mark saturday at W2W, he definitely built the Malitude to be a cruiser, not a "balls out bruiser", and therefore has achieved his goal, with style and craftsmanship.
As Charley said, what's the point? Sure this thing could get a belly full of some sweet swill, the PCM programming being changed from stun to kill, and summarily belt out the numbers everybody possibly expected to see. It already has proved its point in its initial dyno flog sessions. Charley's right, in that any further amounts of power to be had would just be even further wretched excess anyway, definitely reaching the point of diminishing returns... :revto9k:


Hey Nitro - from what I understand, Monty has sold the Vette to a gentleman in Hawaii, where the monster is undergoing a full "back half + cage" upgrade, in attempts at putting all of that insane power down to the pavement more effectively. I have heard that he is involved in giving some other projects (local to him) some input / expertise, though do not know of any current project that he himself if working on.

[68RallySport]

Ummmm Charley, got a picture of ur garage? Sounds like u got a lot of my dream cars!

[BRIAN]

I love this site and it has actually changed my thinking when I build a car in that I now put more of an emphasis on driving ability vs show. I had long winded reply but somehow it got erased? Charlie maybe I am wrong but what is the sense of building such an elaborate expensive engine set up if you aren't out to show what it can do? Hands down some of the best fabrication out there but hey that is not a ISCA show car so lets see it go. Anybody who tells you they didn't expect a lower ET is simply lying. IF the intentions were to build a more driveable machine then again why a 1000hp engine?? If it was done to show of fabrication skills job well done. A lower hp motor more suited for a stock type chassis that wouldn't upset it's handling when the gas is depressed in a corner would be more ideal?? I will put it this way if I posted pic of a 8 71 blown BBC stuffed in a tubbed car and posted a high 12 sec et you guys would be all over that car calling it a poser. Yes I am sure the emphasis was on driveability and handling but isn't that the idea to push the bar and achive both?? There are cars on this site without such an elaborate set up that are doing that very thing. Mark is an incredible fabricator who has changed and raised the bar for how these cars are being built but I think we would all like to see them actually being beaten on as they look like they were designed to be driven. This post is not meant as an attack or insult. I just would honestly like to see it go as well as it was engineered to do.

[yody]

I agree, everyone is kissing but, and being to oversensitive, a lot of steilow leg humpers. Nice car. I hope to have 500 rear wheel horse, and my car should be plenty streetable also. I think all of this gosip over his horse power #'s are pretty silly. However if you read the latest popular hot rodding mag. he states that "it should easily run 11's" I guess his guess was off a little :hammer:

[camcojb]

I agree, everyone is kissing but, and being to oversensitive, a lot of steilow leg humpers.


Well, since he's a friend of mine, I guess that makes me a leg humper?!!!!! This place is going right down the toilet. Too bad, it was pretty cool here, but now a bunch of guys who haven't accomplished anything knocking a guy who has.


Here's some figures: Lets say 750 crank HP times 25% drivetrain loss (he's running a 4L80E which eats a LOT of power, plus the rest of the drivetrain and rear end). That would be 562.5 rwhp, he made 560 rwhp. He was running only 23 degrees of timing I was told, but whatever it was it was very conservative. You put 100 octane back in, put the timing back in and run 17-18 psi and you're back pushing 1000 hp at the crank. It's really simple, you de-tune to make it bulletproof and the power will fall off rapidly. Then take the car to the track with pure street tires and spin them 1/4 of the way down the track e.t.'s will suffer!

Why did he drop the boost? Why is the timing set conservatively? Don't know, ask him but obviously it was his preference. Yes, it's cool to set it on kill and go for max number, lowest e.t's, etc. Mark is beyond that, he's already proven he can do that stuff. I just don't understand the attitude on this board anymore.

Jody

[zbugger]

You know, I'm quite disappoited in some of the people here. Honestly. Please, really tell me what you think is wrong with the car. I really like it the way it is. I'm no leg humper either, as I'll be one to bash a car that poses before most. I can appreciate the quality and engineering of this particular build. Look at what it ran. I know the 12.30 timeslip isn't considered fast enough for most guys here, but look at the mph. Look at the tirespin at 1/4 track. You do realize it was on street tires? Ya think he laid off it a little just to get the rest of the way down the track with tires still on the car? Yes, the car is de-tuned. Why run around with all that power when you don't really need it? Hell, the 560 rwhp isn't totally necessary on the street, is it? As long as I know that a little race gas and a bit of adjustment will push it over the 1,000hp mark, I'm happy. The guy can flat out build a damn car. What most don't realize is that pushing a car to it's limits is more than likely going to be far beyond their own ability to handle, or even afford that car. I only wish that I could afford to build a car like that. If that thing hooked, it would have easily been in the 11's. His guess wasn't far off at all. Just because it has twin turbo's on it doesn't mean it's gonna be a world killer. The engine does have to stay together so he can have a little fun, right? There are quite a few people in this world that have to learn and some that have to grow up. Some have to do both. But that's just my opinion, and I guess because I'm not even gonna have 400 hp I don't even count. Whatever. I'll put better lap times up than you in your own car. Have fun driving a car that you can barely drive guys.

[yody]

Yes, it seems the word "steilow" is a funny topic around here. We get 2 extremes, one bashing, the other humping. I guess thats the downfall of becoming the protouring god. I for one admire his work highly, and enjoy reading the latest issue of pop hot rodding and seeing his latest article. I think these attitudes are normal when someone becomes an icon. instantly everyone judges and holds them up to higher expectations. In retrospect, it does seem silly to argue over this so much. SOme just want to admire and some want to prove that they can prove it wrong. Who knows. I have a feeling if anyone but steilow posted the #'s and so forth, people would congratulate him and maybe offer some advise on how to get better numbers. Even with the numbers he attained with the amount of horsepower he could definetly could of gotten better #'s (preferbaly with better tires!) So in the end its a very nice car with lots of power and potential, its his car and he has it how he likes it. Hopefully these posts wont' keep him from sharing his info. I still think he should post here more often, however after these responses I doubt he will.

[yody]

I'm no leg humper either

yeah i have another name for you! :wedgie:

[camcojb]

Don't like the humping reference at all. :poke: No, I doubt he'll be posting here, but he's certainly welcome. In fact this place is slowly driving away a lot of the people who have the most to offer, I'm amazed you guys haven't noticed. Threads like this one with the responses like this one has received. :banghead:

Jody

[1970cuda]

i have a 64 chevelle and i am glad that he built one because they are
the forgoten a body of the world. not to "hump his leg" but he made it able to compete with any new car on the road and if you have ever driven a stock a body it is like driving a water bed. they are slow and thank god for that because they do not stop. my car is a stock 327= 300 hp car and it ran a 15.4 at 94. i don't care if it only made 500 plus hp. the workmanship is outstanding and if you don't like the car or the man then that is ok because there are millions of other cars out there and 6 billion other people out there. just accept the car for what it is, an outstanding car that the owner built to do everthing the HE wanted it to do and not for us.

[Nine Ball]

This place is going right down the toilet. Too bad, it was pretty cool here, but now a bunch of guys who haven't accomplished anything knocking a guy who has.

speak for yourself. Quite a few people here have accomplished many great things and built many fantastic cars. Just because someone doesn't agree with your viewpoints, that isn't any reason to get your feelings hurt.



Here's some figures: Lets say 750 crank HP times 25% drivetrain loss (he's running a 4L80E which eats a LOT of power, plus the rest of the drivetrain and rear end). That would be 562.5 rwhp, he made 560 rwhp. He was running only 23 degrees of timing I was told, but whatever it was it was very conservative. You put 100 octane back in, put the timing back in and run 17-18 psi and you're back pushing 1000 hp at the crank. It's really simple, you de-tune to make it bulletproof and the power will fall off rapidly. Then take the car to the track with pure street tires and spin them 1/4 of the way down the track e.t.'s will suffer!

Man, that sure is alot of excuses. I've been building cars and racing cars for 14 years now and I've yet to see a "25%" drivetrain loss, even with a 4L80e. Most A4 trannys see 18%, and inefficient ones see 20%. Most manuals see 15%. We also gave you plenty of "normal" examples on that last thread to contradict what your claims here are.

I also agree that twin-turbos are overkill for that power output. There are NA stroked LS1s making that power and doing so reliably. Would have been a much lighter engine setup, for better handling and braking ala "pro-touring".

In the end, the Malitude is a beautiful car, with excellent craftsmanship. Mark does one hell of a job when it comes to building a car and showing us some unique things. This car was built to be a daily-drivable toy, to further showcase Mark's building and design skill. I'm sure many of us would have liked to see the performance end pushed out a bit, but that might be down the road perhaps. I'm sure Charley will enjoy the car and the crowd it will attract.

[B Cichocki]

I'll preface this by saying that I'm neither a Stielow "leg-humper" or basher. I dig his cars. I think the Mule is pretty damn cool, but I'm not in the crowd that thinks it's the be-all end-all of 69 Camaros or Pro-Touring cars in general. As such, I don't have a bias one way or another.

With all of this talk about the Malitude and the muted mud-slinging attached, I have a couple of observations. First, there seems to be a bit of the case of the armchair quarterback. "Hell, I coulda made more power and ran faster than that with my hands tied behind my back, blindfolded, for half the money and without that stupid air conditioning and stereo system." :Alchy: Well you know what, you didn't. It's been clearly stated above what his intentions were for this car, and being a track whore wasn't one of them. That brings me to my second point. I would like to know how many members of this website have actually driven a car with 1000 or more horsepower. Or even a car with 560rwhp. I for one haven't but I think it's pretty safe to ASSume that it's a tad more involved than taking your grandma's Camry down to the drugstore to pick up her prescription. Who in the hell REALLY needs 1000hp in a street car, anyway? You need that to pass up the Buick going 40 in the right lane on the freeway? Come on guys. This is a street car for godssake. He built it the way he wanted to, and if he doesn't want to have to fill it up with 110 octane to go to the store or run around on slicks in case he needs to get to the next stoplight in less than 10 seconds, then that's his prerogative. The car is what it is. A kickass street car with a ton of USABLE power that looks cool, stops and handles well (presumably, based on the parts list), and doesn't make you feel like you just endured the Baja 1000 after cruising the town. When you naysayers build something comparable, feel free to step up. Until then...
-Brian
(Burning bridges as I go)

[Nine Ball]

I would like to know how many members of this website have actually driven a car with 1000 or more horsepower. Or even a car with 560rwhp. I for one haven't.....When you naysayers build something comparable, feel free to step up. Until then...


So, if some of us have driven 1000 hp cars, and have built something comparible, does that make our opinions more valid? I don't think so. They are just opinions, and everyone should be allowed to state theirs.

BTW, I have driven a 1000 hp car (Supra and turbo C5), and I have built similar cars. :smoke:. But, I wouldn't be so quick to say that if someone hasn't done those two things that they know less than I do, or that their opinions matter less.

[yody]

Jody, i understand your frustaration, but i don't think it is fair for you to bash this site, because of one or two threads, especially since it is your friend. Get over it. "leg humping" was just a joke, don't get your panties in a bundle over it. I also don't think this site is going down hill. I think if these threads were really out of line Ralph or larry would shut it down, i think people are voicing their opinions in a fine manner. However i stil agree with my previous post, that when you become an icon there will be a lot of people that will find something to pick apart. As a matter of fact, in almost EVERY post, it is mentioned how nice of a car and the excellent craftsmanship. What more do you want?? I think that the way people are responding is a little rude because it wasn't mark who actually posted, so people feel free to say what they want. because since the owner didn't post there are no feelings to hurt. I guarantee that if Mark posted this and was a member here, people would be giving him the thumbs up, and maybe making a few suggestions. But since we are examining a CAR without the owner really, people are going to state exactly what they think.

[camcojb]

speak for yourself. Quite a few people here have accomplished many great things and built many fantastic cars. Just because someone doesn't agree with your viewpoints, that isn't any reason to get your feelings hurt.


Tony, didn't say there aren't talented car builders here, because there are. But you are losing the best ones and it will continue with moderating as is being done currently. You keep mentioning hurting my feelings. You are not and cannot hurt my feelings Tony. I'm just disappointed that a site I enjoy and have supported for years is going down so far, so fast. You will never keep the cream of the crop guys here because they will not put up with this bashing crap.


Man, that sure is alot of excuses. I've been building cars and racing cars for 14 years now and I've yet to see a "25%" drivetrain loss, even with a 4L80e. Most A4 trannys see 18%, and inefficient ones see 20%. Most manuals see 15%. We also gave you plenty of "normal" examples on that last thread to contradict what your claims here are.

You evidently have not done a lot of chassis dynoing and have been reading too many magazines. If you haven't seen a 25% loss you haven't done back to back dynoing with a 4L80E my friend! I have.

I also agree that twin-turbos are overkill for that power output. There are NA stroked LS1s making that power and doing so reliably. Would have been a much lighter engine setup, for better handling and braking ala "pro-touring".

You know, the LS-1 is not God's gift to the automotive world. Take your N/A LS-1 with 560 rwhp and 600 rwtq and compare the entire torque and power curve (not just the peaks). It will not hang with the twin turbo. I'm starting to wonder how experienced you are in this arena.

In the end, the Malitude is a beautiful car, with excellent craftsmanship. Mark does one hell of a job when it comes to building a car and showing us some unique things. This car was built to be a daily-drivable toy, to further showcase Mark's building and design skill. I'm sure many of us would have liked to see the performance end pushed out a bit, but that might be down the road perhaps. I'm sure Charley will enjoy the car and the crowd it will attract.


Charley does not own this car.

Jody

[camcojb]

Jody, i understand your frustaration, but i don't think it is fair for you to bash this site, because of one or two threads, especially since it is your friend. Get over it. "leg humping" was just a joke, don't get your panties in a bundle over it. I also don't think this site is going down hill. I think if these threads were really out of line Ralph or larry would shut it down, i think people are voicing their opinions in a fine manner. However i stil agree with my previous post, that when you become an icon there will be a lot of people that will find something to pick apart. As a matter of fact, in almost EVERY post, it is mentioned how nice of a car and the excellent craftsmanship. What more do you want?? I think that the way people are responding is a little rude because it wasn't mark who actually posted, so people feel free to say what they want. because since the owner didn't post there are no feelings to hurt. I guarantee that if Mark posted this and was a member here, people would be giving him the thumbs up, and maybe making a few suggestions. But since we are examining a CAR without the owner really, people are going to state exactly what they think.


I'm bashing the moderating, or lack of, not the site. A while ago this bashing wouldn't have been allowed. I like the site, really support Larry in his effort. But the posts that remain bashing things is affecting the site. I know it is because I've seen the e-mails in the background from people very high up in the car building arena that lurk but don't post because of some of the garbage going on. And there's a long list, most of which you'd love to see participating, very well-known names.

Whatever, your guys site, run it the way you see fit. That's your right. I was trying to point out something that I think threatens it is all.

Jody

[yody]

"I know it is because I've seen the e-mails in the background from people very high up in the car building arena that lurk but don't post because of some of the garbage going on. And there's a long list, most of which you'd love to see participating, very well-known names."


sure, why don't you name some? or contact one of the moderators personally. How come they didn't post before? NOw suddenly since these 2 posts, they know don't want to post? sorry i don't buy it. I agree this thread isnt' really going anywhere anymore.

[camcojb]

"I know it is because I've seen the e-mails in the background from people very high up in the car building arena that lurk but don't post because of some of the garbage going on. And there's a long list, most of which you'd love to see participating, very well-known names."


sure, why don't you name some? or contact one of the moderators personally. How come they didn't post before? NOw suddenly since these 2 posts, they know don't want to post? sorry i don't buy it. I agree this thread isnt' really going anywhere anymore.


Whatever Yody! I'm not going to name them. If they wanted everyone to know their thoughts on this board they would have posted. There are different kinds of people in this world. For the most part the Troy Trepaniers, Mark Stielows, Chip Fooses, etc. are older (didn't say old!) and more mature. They won't participate where they are not comfortable. They'll check out a sight and then decide whether to post or not. The sites that allow most everything to be said are fun to watch, get a laugh out of, but I don't participate. That's for the other guys.

Problem is, the guys that have the most to offer, willing to donate to the site , sponsor it with their business, etc. are in the first group not the second.

Jody

[B Cichocki]

So, if some of us have driven 1000 hp cars, and have built something comparible, does that make our opinions more valid? I don't think so. They are just opinions, and everyone should be allowed to state theirs.

BTW, I have driven a 1000 hp car (Supra and turbo C5), and I have built similar cars. :smoke:. But, I wouldn't be so quick to say that if someone hasn't done those two things that they know less than I do, or that their opinions matter less.


Aha! The classic example of taking a quote out of context. You took two of my satements that were completely separate and tied them together. You're not going to take over for Dan Rather are you? Of course someone's opinion doesn't mean less if they haven't driven or built a car with 1000hp. And I am in no way saying that people shouldn't be able to state theirs. My remark about driving a car with that much power was meant to put this into perspective. No matter what kind of car has it, be it an LS1 Camaro or an SL55 AMG Benz, anything around 560 hp at the wheels is a hell of alot any which way you slice it. ESPECIALLY for something that isn't a dedicated track car. So is it really such a godawful terrible shame that this car isn't making 800 hp at the wheels? Why do we even care how much power this car is making? It's like the people who read tabloids and just absolutely have to know what is going on in Britney Spears' life. Does it affect you at all? Does it make you all feel bad inside that it's not at it's "full potential?" If he wants it at 560, then so be it. Lord knows I'll be able to sleep tonight knowing that it's so grossly underperforming. I'll admit that I'm being a bit of a hypocrite here. Take my car for example. I can tell you right now that it is not going to see a ton of track time. Does it need a procharged big block? Nope. Do I really need 15" brakes with 6-piston Alcons? No way. Is it mainly going to see street duty? You betcha. So why all the hardcore parts if I ain't gonna use em? Because I want them on the car. It's MY CAR. My money, my prerogative. Stielow's car, Stielow's money, Stielow's prerogative to do whatever in the hell he wants without people jumping all over him for not building HIS car as the peanut gallery sees fit. If he wants to put 24" spinners on it, then more power to him. I'm not going to call him out on it in public. I may not like it, but it's not my place to rain on his, or anyone elses, parade. That's MY opinion and I'm sticking to it.
-Brian

[Larry Callahan]

I hate it when threads go the way this one has. I must admit that for some time things have been going down hill with the quality of posts and it's not fun. Although I do think it is fun for some because there seems to be a trend going on. In almost every one of the threads that gets out of hand there is usually one or two people in them who just can't help but to stir things up and it's always the same person or two. I don't remember ever having to ban anyone but it may come to it very soon.

If you don't have something constructive to say don't say it. I have no problem with people putting an opinion out there and even complaining. Everything is not perfect.

If you think your post is just going piss people off and not be constructive, don't post it.

With that said, I am closing this thread.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

I also don't think this site is going down hill. I think if these threads were really out of line Ralph or larry would shut it down, i think people are voicing their opinions in a fine manner.


I'm bashing the moderating, or lack of, not the site. A while ago this bashing wouldn't have been allowed. I like the site, really support Larry in his effort. But the posts that remain bashing things is affecting the site. I know it is because I've seen the e-mails in the background from people very high up in the car building arena that lurk but don't post because of some of the garbage going on. And there's a long list, most of which you'd love to see participating, very well-known names.

Whatever, your guys site, run it the way you see fit. That's your right. I was trying to point out something that I think threatens it is all.

Jody


I'm glad Larry closed this thread, as it got out of hand real fast.

The only people who have the ability to close a thread in the Open Discussion forum are Larry and myself as we're the only moderators of this forum. Unfortunately I was out all day at work and am just now sifting through the thread at 8:50 EST.