100k Trans Am??

[rob07002]

REALLY????

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Original-SD-455-Trans-Am-1974-Cleanest-one-Alive-Today_W0QQitemZ120058194064QQihZ002QQcategoryZ6427 QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[6'9"Witha69]

I wish I could buy it to lower it, improve the handling, brakes and put an LS in it!! Then drive to his house to show it off! Rare and deserved history my arse!

[ProTouring442]

One of the few cars that deserves to be preserved!

Maybe I could sell my wife... nah, she'd never let me!

Shiny Side Up!
Bill
'72 442 "Inamorata"
www.FQuick.com/ProTouring442 (http://www.FQuick.com/ProTouring442)

[wantahertzdonut]

Nice car, but not for $100k.

[bretcopsey]

Hmmm, 12xxx miles, original paint, needed $35k restoration...

In the Q&A section, mention of a replacement block...
:hand:

[6'9"Witha69]

Hmmm, 12xxx miles, original paint, needed $35k restoration...

In the Q&A section, mention of a replacement block...
:hand:~Oh but you don't understand, it was under warranty so it is OK.

:bsjerk:

[formula]

warranty replacement blocks are still usually considered ok to collectors. Not quite as valuable as true numbers matching, but still valuable, especially if the replacement is documented.

I'll be jumping for joy if it actually sells for that price. Because that means my car is suddenly worth much, much more.

I've had the chance to drive an sd455 t/a...that is one engine i would not dump for an ls. My god that thing is a torque monster.

[Rubes]

UMMMM makes the one I have for sale here seem like a bargain. I too hope he gets that much so I can use that as a selling feature for mine :hammer:

[WS6]

No, it is rare and does have a very deserved history. However, he is nuts if he wants 100K for the thing. No second gen could possibly be worth that without a rear seat consule. I mean really.

[vintageracer]

Don't let visions of $$$'s flood your heads just because you own a Trans Am and another T/A sells for big bucks. Real/Correct SD cars are very valuable and for good reason. 4 Speed SD cars are rare and desirable. The warranty block in this car will kill the value to most folks. The condition and low miles certainly help.

The BIG question that I do not see addressed is IF the warranty engine IS really a SD engine? There is a lot of differences in an SD engine. Pontiac was also bad about re-using engine codes in different model years for difference engines. If you look at a 74 SD engine code, you will also see the SAME code re-used for a 200HP 455 available in the T/A in 1976. With Pontiac you should always check the casting number since the engine code, while helpful, may be misleading.

I got a call Monday night on a 76 T/A in Texas with a supposed real SD 455 engine installed in the car. The seller wanted to know if I was in on buying the car. I have known the seller for years and he is usually very knowledgeable. On this one he got burned!!! He totally relied on the engine code. The engine in the car is a 455 and the car is a 76 455T/A. Unfortunately the engine code is correct for a 1976 455 T/A engine AND for a 74 T/A SD engine. The seller from whom he purchased the car also said it was an SD engine in the car. I asked him to check the block casting number to confirm the engine block as a SD. He finally did and called today and was he sick! He bought the car thinking it has a $10K-$15K engine in the car when it did not. OOPS!!!! He forgot about the fact that Pontiac did repeat engine codes. As a matter of fact, the engine was not even the original 455 for the 76 T/A.

When you play in the high dollar end of the hobby big eyes can overcome common sense, knowledge and patience.

[BA.]

great tips VR!
Thx!

[TonyHuntimer]

That is one Beautiful T/A. :)

Tony~

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

wow..

[spdrace11]

Maybe if it had 75K in the trunk.

[LowBuckX]

Funny I know of a SD-455 T/a Red with black interior sitting here in NE Ohio that has less that 20K miles and is the cleanest one ive ever seen.
Owner bought it new then had a motorcycle accident and lost use of his legs. The car sits in a attached garage His son takes it out 2-3 times a year to run the gas out of it an put fresh gas in. Oil gets changed every 3 months also. He personally has not driven since his accident so it never received hnd controls or nothing.

Dont ask because he wont sell it. He said he is going to be buried in it so he can drive it to heaven lol

[wick]

A '73 SD 4 speed sold last week on Ebay for $125K and was unrestored with one repaint. These cars were able to run high 13's right off the showrood with a good driver. Plus handle like a slot car for their time. Did anyone else have anything close?

[Roadrage David]

I wish I could buy it to lower it, improve the handling, brakes and put an LS in it!! Then drive to his house to show it off! Rare and deserved history my arse! Put a LS in it over a SD455 hahahah wat a wanker:bsjerk: ............

[andrewb70]

Put a LS in it over a SD455 hahahah wat a wanker:bsjerk: ............

Be nice David. We know you love the Pontiac engines, but you’re just being nostalgic.

Andrew

[Bow Tie 67]

Phffffff for 100k I want the thing spotless. The undercarriage looks like its been driven. :)

[Charley Lillard]

He is high on the price considering it has a warranty block and it is a 74. They made SD's in 73 and 74 only. 74 is when the front end changed and they don't look as good. 73's bring more money. These SD engines are very cool. Things like steel tubes in the side of the intake ports in the heads for the pushrods to pass thru because the ports are so big. Extra webbing in the lifter bore area, provision for dry sump oiling etc. Sometimes you see a set of SD heads on Ebay and they are usually 4ooo.oo plus. Cool cars

[rob07002]

All I can say is wow, I had no idea a 74 could come close to $100k. I always thought the 69's and 70 1/2's were the real collectables.

[wick]

The '73's do bring more money. I am looking for a complete '73 motor only now and some of the quotes are astounding. A '69 RAIV motor just sold for $14.5K and it was in parts!! Not even a restored engine but all of the date codes matched.

[68Formula]

Be nice David. We know you love the Pontiac engines, but you’re just being nostalgic.

Andrew

Please, he said what other felt. It's one thing to disrespect the man because you think he's out there, but at least respect the car. And at least know about something about the model history if your going to slam it.

It's like going to an Autoshow with someone looking at a 911 and saying "wow I paid 1/5 that for my VW and it's German and the same darn size too! Better have $75k in the trunk."

[6'9"Witha69]

My remark was geared more toward the "numbers matching" crowd, not against pontiacs or their engines. My buddy had a '76 Hurst T/A so I KNOW the value these have among enthusiasts. I just think $100k for this one is unreasonable.

[Ummgawa]

I'd like factory style hose clamps on my 100K Super Duty Thank you very much.

[68Formula]

Just to clarify, my comments had nothing to do with the fact that it was a Pontiac. The car could have been any make. The point is in many brands there are rare models or trim levels of models that have more value than others of the same lineage. Again if someone's out of the ballpark in value its not the fault of the car.

I think these cars (restorations and originals) hold an importance in the hobby as they represent the history of American cars. I respect them and appreciate them for what they are. Enough that I'm glad I started with a base model rather than rare trim model because I knew I was going to eventually replace the original suspension and upgrade the engine. I have a lot of respect also for the guys who are willing to track down that date coded lugnut to keep the car 100% factory. I would never have the patience and skills to be that meticulous.

I love g-machines, classics, concours restorations, non-restored originals, rods, etc. I like that I can go to a car show and see a variety of types. Okay, I don't love every hobby type but if any should be held in high regards I would think the factory originals that cultivated our love of cars would be. Maybe it's because of the tiny group within this crowd that like to ridicule others whos cars are not perfect originals, I don't know. But are we better then them, when we put them down or not wanting to improve performance or looks beyond factory original?

As a culture, we destroy so much of our history because it's outdated when we really should try preserving some of it.

[BonzoHansen]

Just to clarify, my comments had nothing to do with the fact that it was a Pontiac. The car could have been any make. The point is in many brands there are rare models or trim levels of models that have more value than others of the same lineage. Again if someone's out of the ballpark in value its not the fault of the car.

I think these cars (restorations and originals) hold an importance in the hobby as they represent the history of American cars. I respect them and appreciate them for what they are. Enough that I'm glad I started with a base model rather than rare trim model because I knew I was going to eventually replace the original suspension and upgrade the engine. I have a lot of respect also for the guys who are willing to track down that date coded lugnut to keep the car 100% factory. I would never have the patience and skills to be that meticulous.

I love g-machines, classics, concours restorations, non-restored originals, rods, etc. I like that I can go to a car show and see a variety of types. Okay, I don't love every hobby type but if any should be held in high regards I would think the factory originals that cultivated our love of cars would be. Maybe it's because of the tiny group within this crowd that like to ridicule others whos cars are not perfect originals, I don't know. But are we better then them, when we put them down or not wanting to improve performance or looks beyond factory original?

As a culture, we destroy so much of our history because it's outdated when we really should try preserving some of it.Well said.

[BA.]

I'm a sucker for the Super Duty cars. The engine ranks as one of the top 10 greats in my book. It's an engineering feat, especially for that time period!!

[Roadrage David]

Be nice David. We know you love the Pontiac engines, but you’re just being nostalgic.

Andrew:dunno: im just as nice as him , thing is a 455SD engine can make a lot of hp. and im not being nostalgic,just think a chebby should drive a chebby and a poncho with a poncho thats all. by the way SD kicks LS butt in the max performance 365 day a year

[Roadrage David]

My remark was geared more toward the "numbers matching" crowd, not against pontiacs or their engines.. I just think $100k for this one is unreasonable. thats not the impresion i got ,but let me gues a yenko is defenatly worth a 100 k right!!!....... thing is i say f..k stock myself , but when it comes to engeneering marvels (and im not talking RARETY in the likes of yenko,s copo,s ecetera, but real enegeneering ecselense) LIKE THE sd 455 Transam you should not toutch it, and they do have that valiuew..........as usual forgive my spelling

[6'9"Witha69]

but let me gues a yenko is defenatly worth a 100 k right!!!....... For a tried and true racer, yes. Thing is I have been in the Chevy camp so long but am still ignorant to Pontiacs racing history. My apologies, just a difference in perspective.

[WS6]

Rob all the 70-72 cars are the very valueable especially the blue ones. They only had two colors to choose from in those years and most peple chose white with blue. The SD cars are leap years ahead of the other 73-74 cars because they are such a departure from the other cars even if it is only the engine that is different. 73 started the first year for more than two colors on the TA. They also started having more engine options and all the other options. So you could end up with a plain jane nothing really special TA. By the later years, like my 79, TAs where almost common place and rare wasn't a word associated with them. That is slowly starting to change. The 69 TA is so far above any other TA and almost any other car period. Valuable doesn't even begin to describe it. To those that see it for more than it's selling price, it is untouchable in every fashion. Give it a few more years and the price on them will be rediculous. I hope never to the stupid level that the Hemi cars have gotten, but it will get up there.

[wick]

WS6, unfortunatly those days are coming. Fact is , the SD is a low compresion motor that no one could touch. If it had been high compression like L-88's with no EGR and such would be interesting to say the least. From what I understand, the Ram Air V was like driving a modified L-88. Now that is impressive!!

Regardless, the SD is rare and valuble and no slouch.

[Takid455]

WOW, this has generated some interesting responses. Being the owner of many I can't resist to stay out.

1) The 100k car in question was recently on ebay not too long ago and I believe it sold for 93k ( maybe that was the final bid)

2) I like this car because its the same color and engine trans combo as mine and provides me inspiration to get mine going. After I finish my current project. focus is key to accomplishing things and not having many pieces of unfinished "I'll get to it later" cars that turn into junk.

3) As far as WS6's input on valve, I have to agree. I never thought I would own a SD or HO for that matter due to their price. Sometimes you just happen to respond at the right time. Yes, I see these as retirement funds and investments, but I also value their automotive history and ownership more than price. almost like its a privelage to have, drive, or sit it such a car. Certain cars have that arora about them. Lambos, Dueseys, auburns, v-12 or v-16 anything pre 1940, ect, ect.

personally, I would not pay 100k for any car. unless somehow in the future I am blessed with silly amounts of cash/assets. I would buy a barn or at least down payment on ahouse w/ many garages for 100k at this point in life, but thats just me. Damn 1/4 life crisis.

[Charley Lillard]

In 1973 they made 252 total SD's, 180 auto and 72 4 speeds. In 1974 they made 943 SD's..731 autos and 212 4 speeds. That is 1195 total SD's ever built..Pretty low production. It is very hard to find someone willing to sell a good 73 4 speed SD.

[Roadrage David]

For a tried and true racer, yes. Thing is I have been in the Chevy camp so long but am still ignorant to Pontiacs racing history. My apologies, just a difference in perspective. here is some more injun raceing history . ever heard of the Super Duty raceing program of the 60,s(60/63) ranging from the 389 to 421 pontiac engines that SMACHED chevy ford mopar in sutch a big way,on EVEY field that GM under presure (ecscuse) from the govermend about becoming to big, puled the plug out of pontiac,s raceing departmend up till this presend day!!!! chevy was seen as the poor mans raceing horshe(not a degrading coment) and wat ever happen HAD TO STAY the biggest selling brand within the GM famely time over again Pontiac with a mutch smaller buget proved to be inovated enoughf to stay iven and sometimes ahead,witch proved the ecselence of the engeneers at PMD (SD 455program and beter engine disighn in general over chevy) Pontiac was not alowed in the mid 60s to eurly 70,s to stick a bigger engine then the 400 in its Firebirds and GTO,s (you ever saw a 454 chevelle beat a 400 GTO on the streets dont think so) while the 421/428 and the 455 where availeble. Pontiac in the Transam raceing series was forced to drive with chevy engines, when pontiac finally had the unbeliveble RAM AIR V engine in the later stages of developmend to enter the game again GM puled the plug again!!!!(go figure) the tottal dominance and shock wave of the SD raceing program of the eurly 60,s had GM and al the cooperatif brands leak fluid till today , resend history has it done again .in GM saying whe only need 1 brand in NASCAR racing lets pull the pontiac plug again ..last but not least the only rezen that GM puled the plugs on the other Motor divisions in the late 70,s and go on with 1 engine fits al stratergy and choose the chevy smal block engine had nothing to do with quality ore engenering ecselense, but with COSTS the sbc was is cheap to build and that was the end of pontiac oldsmobile and buick,s motor divisions. a dam shame if you ask me. GM:getout:

[LowBuckX]

here is some more injun raceing history . ever heard of the Super Duty raceing program of the 60,s(60/63) ranging from the 389 to 421 pontiac engines that SMACHED chevy ford mopar in sutch a big way,on EVEY field that GM under presure (ecscuse) from the govermend about becoming to big, puled the plug out of pontiac,s raceing departmend up till this presend day!!!! chevy was seen as the poor mans raceing horshe(not a degrading coment) and wat ever happen HAD TO STAY the biggest selling brand within the GM famely time over again Pontiac with a mutch smaller buget proved to be inovated enoughf to stay iven and sometimes ahead,witch proved the ecselence of the engeneers at PMD (SD 455program and beter engine disighn in general over chevy) Pontiac was not alowed in the mid 60s to eurly 70,s to stick a bigger engine then the 400 in its Firebirds and GTO,s (you ever saw a 455 chevelle beat a 400 GTO on the streets dont think so) while the 421/428 and the 455 where availeble. Pontiac in the Transam raceing series was forced to drive with chevy engines, when pontiac finally had the unbeliveble RAM AIR V engine in the later stages of developmend to enter the game again GM puled the plug again!!!!(go figure) the tottal dominance and shock wave of the SD raceing program of the eurly 60,s had GM and al the cooperatif brands leak fluid till today , resend history has it done again .in GM saying whe only need 1 brand in NASCAR racing lets pull the pontiac plug again ..last but not least the only rezen that GM puled the plugs on the other Motor divisions in the late 70,s and go on with 1 engine fits al stratergy and choose the chevy smal block engine had nothing to do with quality ore engenering ecselense, but with COSTS the sbc was is cheap to build and that was the end of pontiac oldsmobile and buick,s motor divisions. a dam shame if you ask me. GM:getout:

Now take this statment and switch the names and you have the Ford story. Or swap pontiac and Chevy and you have the chevy story.
Read a Ford book and they claim to have won every race and had the fastest cars. Read a Mopar book and they won everything and had the fastest cars. ETC.. ETC

And No David Ive never seen a 455 Chevelle beat a 400 GTO But Ive seen 454 Chevelles spank 400 GTO and T/As Hell Ive seen 396 Chevelles lay waste to GTOs

[Roadrage David]

...:sleeping:

[Roadrage David]

But Ive seen 454 Chevelles spank 400 GTO and T/As Hell Ive seen 396 Chevelles lay waste to GTOs:Alchy: LIAR :here!:

[Bandit]

Pontiac was not alowed in the mid 60s to eurly 70,s to stick a bigger engine then the 400 in its Firebirds and GTO,s (you ever saw a 454 chevelle beat a 400 GTO on the streets dont think so)

Is this like your life's saying or something? This was the first thing you posted in response to my very first post on this site. I am a Pontiac guy through and through, but to claim that any GTO that rolled off the factory floor with a 400 was the fastest ever is just ludicrous. Plenty of cars were faster, and all cars were limited on the street by the crappy tires of the day. Which means that it usually came down to driving skills as far as who actually won the race. My dad had a '69 RAIII Judge 4-spd, and it was an awesome car, but still only ran 13's. To answer your rediculous question, yes, of course Chevelles have beat Goats. And Goats have beat Chevelles. And Mustangs have beat Goats and 'velles and vice-versa, etc., etc.

It sounds like you have a purist attitude that is just not in keeping with the spirit of what most of us are trying to do here. You bashed me for putting a big Chevy engine in place of my Pontiac POS 301, because you say I should have used a Pontiac motor instead. The ironic thing is that the Chevy 305 was an option for my Trans Am for that year, so the way I see it, what's the difference? Either way it wouldn't have the original engine. The factory does it, it's called corporate power. Get with the program, no one cares whether your car crosses the finish line 1st with a "Chebby," or "injun," or "wedge," or whatever. Only the #'s matching crowd cares, and they are not concerned with real performance for the most part. I am tempted to drop a blown Hemi between the fenders of my TA, just to piss off guys like you! :evil:

P.S. Your writing is very difficult to understand! :screwy:

[OldSchoolFormula]

:Alchy:


Your nucking futs if you'd pull an SD motor out of an SD car to install an LSX. Thats like pulling a Ferrari motor out of a Ferrari to install an LSX. Or the motor out of a Dusenberg. Or the motor out of a Hemi Cuda. Or, or, or...

I mean, really. The LSX is a great engine, but it is not the end all be all, and you'd be silly to think so. You'd be even sillier to devalue the T/A by 500%. Sure, throw in an LSX into a 74 T/A, thats fine..but leave the damn SD cars out of it! :hand:

[Bandit]

I agree--the SD 455 was one of the last great engines from Detroit, it is a legend in its own rite, and if I had one I would build a time capsule to enshrine it. It was about the last motor before they lost all power and performance in the late 70's through early 80's. It is also rare and valuable. But--if you happen to have one of the years of TA's where the only option was a 301 Pontiac, 305 chevy, or God forbid the hilariously pathetic 301 Pontiac Turbo, ditch that boat anchor motor immediately and install some real power. These were all great cars, but most were hampered by political BS. An LS1/2 would be great, but it's easy to revive the spirit of the SD 455 cars in a relatively common late-70's/early '80's f-body with a simple carburated big-block swap, and who cares who made the engine because the car won't be #'s matching anyhow at that point. Especially if you go with a respectable OD manual trans, which you should. Not to mention their rear gear ratios sucked and must be changed--my '80 had 3:08 snoozer gears and my '79 had laughable 2:73's that killed the otherwise decent torque of the car's Olds 403 motor. IMHO

[Roadrage David]

Is this like your life's saying or something? This was the first thing you posted in response to my very first post on this site. I am a Pontiac guy through and through, but to claim that any GTO that rolled off the factory floor with a 400 was the fastest ever is just ludicrous. Plenty of cars were faster, and all cars were limited on the street by the crappy tires of the day. Which means that it usually came down to driving skills as far as who actually won the race. My dad had a '69 RAIII Judge 4-spd, and it was an awesome car, but still only ran 13's. To answer your rediculous question, yes, of course Chevelles have beat Goats. And Goats have beat Chevelles. And Mustangs have beat Goats and 'velles and vice-versa, etc., etc.

It sounds like you have a purist attitude that is just not in keeping with the spirit of what most of us are trying to do here. You bashed me for putting a big Chevy engine in place of my Pontiac POS 301, because you say I should have used a Pontiac motor instead. The ironic thing is that the Chevy 305 was an option for my Trans Am for that year, so the way I see it, what's the difference? Either way it wouldn't have the original engine. The factory does it, it's called corporate power. Get with the program, no one cares whether your car crosses the finish line 1st with a "Chebby," or "injun," or "wedge," or whatever. Only the #'s matching crowd cares, and they are not concerned with real performance for the most part. I am tempted to drop a blown Hemi between the fenders of my TA, just to piss off guys like you! :evil:

P.S. Your writing is very difficult to understand! :screwy: Now your over reacting and just being silly!!!!.. first of all im getting tired of ecsplaining 500 times a year that im dislectic and dutch. it takes a real man(like yourself) to bitch and moan about somebodys short comings while you ""do"" seem to understand what i put in my post.i for ones NEVER CLAIMD ore SAID fore you to stick a 301 poncho mill in your car . i dear you no i dubbel dear you to relocate that post and put it up here. about me being a purist hell no when it comes to special cars like the one mentiond in this topic(SD455) hell yes.. my own car started out as a first owner cali 1968 firebird 350 2 barrel 2 speed auto, a real girls car in perfect condition at the same time a perfect project for sticking in my hard eurnd 100 k to build one hell of a pro touring g mashine car,, with yes a Poncho injun mill in it the way it should be( brand loyalty).and reddy to kick your hybrid cheby ass 365 days a year. the only rezen why guys like you stick a chevy in there poncho is ignorens and lack of nowing what is availeble for the traditional injun engine. and the all mighty myth that poncho,s cant make power ,(how ignorend can you be) but the biggest rezen of them all to use a chevy in there is its CHEAPER(not) , lets face it no poncho guy is ever going to buy your car same gose for a chevy fan . do i care hell no.. do you, it must be because you seem to be very upset about someting said alredy a long time ago in a perfectly normal matter .. about you pissing me off sticking another brand engine in there not very likely, if your new to the usa car seen then its just being novice. in your case im kinda laughfing and look at it as the mock of the week being so ignorend...now are we going to continiew this ore led it be and go on with our daily bisenis talking bull**** around muscle cars..........

[rob07002]

Rob all the 70-72 cars are the very valueable especially the blue ones. They only had two colors to choose from in those years and most peple chose white with blue. The SD cars are leap years ahead of the other 73-74 cars because they are such a departure from the other cars even if it is only the engine that is different. 73 started the first year for more than two colors on the TA. They also started having more engine options and all the other options. So you could end up with a plain jane nothing really special TA. By the later years, like my 79, TAs where almost common place and rare wasn't a word associated with them. That is slowly starting to change. The 69 TA is so far above any other TA and almost any other car period. Valuable doesn't even begin to describe it. To those that see it for more than it's selling price, it is untouchable in every fashion. Give it a few more years and the price on them will be rediculous. I hope never to the stupid level that the Hemi cars have gotten, but it will get up there.

You know, I guess I just forgot about the SD cars. I can appreciate these as the Pontiac guys COPO or sim.

I really hope to own a 70-72 TA one day, and it wasn't too long ago you could get a completely restored one for under $20k. Man these cars are better then the market!

[Bandit]

lets face it no poncho guy is ever going to buy your car same gose for a chevy fan .
Now I know why they call you "Roadrage!" :enguard: Sorry if I offended you, you're not my enemy, just another gearhead from a different school of thought.

Maybe we hang out in different circles, but I don't see too many brand loyalists anymore. In my opinion, the aftermarket has blurred the lines between the "big three" and others. Now it is possible to build a better car from the ground up with all new aftermarket parts. Classic "resto-mods" have proven immensely popular, as proven by myriad TV shows such as "Overhaulin." And yes, people will buy them if they are built right, and pay top dollar.

Brand loyalty only makes sense anymore to the #'s matching crowd. I am not bashing them in any way, as I love a beautifully restored machine and I believe certain machines should be preserved as an important part of our automotive history. But such cars are not built for performance--they're built for show. What cracks me up is how many of these guys don't respect my point of view, even while I respect theirs. I have actually had guys at Pontiac shows turn away in disgust from my car and refuse to talk to me, because I didn't restore my car to stock. And my car is not rare by any means or deserving of such a resto. The majority of folks can't get enough of it, and can appreciate what I am trying to do.

From a performance point of view, it doesn't make sense anymore to stick with OEM stuff. Not to mention, if you are building a car for yourself to drive and enjoy (which most of us are), build it how you want and to heII with what anyone says.

I am sure we are way off topic by now...what was this post about again? :confused:

[s10kool]

when you think about stock hp and engineering, which 2 GM car makers have blown away the others when they were always given the left overs and had less funding and thrown on the back burner as some would say during the 60's to late 80's
Pontiac - sd455
Buick- most known- 3.8 turbo
in the time of release they were the best engineered machines you could have and they worked best in the bodies they were originally installed in. well just my 2cents

[Bandit]

when you think about stock hp and engineering, which 2 GM car makers have blown away the others when they were always given the left overs and had less funding and thrown on the back burner as some would say during the 60's to late 80's
Pontiac - sd455
Buick- most known- 3.8 turbo
in the time of release they were the best engineered machines you could have and they worked best in the bodies they were originally installed in. well just my 2cents

I second that! Let's not forget the '64 GTO that sent all the others scrambling to catch up, and the Buick GS that snuck up on the better-known muscle cars of the day, prompting people to ask "What kind of car is that?" after it just had just blown their doors off!

[OldSchoolFormula]

my '80 had 3:08 snoozer gears and my '79 had laughable 2:73's that killed the otherwise decent torque of the car's Olds 403 motor. IMHO

My '73 still has those 3.08's, lol. I wonder how much time I'd pick up with the 3.73's in the garage. Think the LS1 would like em? :naughty: Runs 13.00's right now with 2.2 60's. But still, 2.73's aren't bad, the 2.56's in a buddies 78 T/A are bad, evenm with my old 400/2004R combo. It won't even break em loose, it just kinda chirps all the way through 1st gear till ~60MPH. LoL! And the OD coupled with those gears makes for some serious low RPM high speed cruising...

[Bandit]

My '73 still has those 3.08's, lol. I wonder how much time I'd pick up with the 3.73's in the garage. Think the LS1 would like em? :naughty: Runs 13.00's right now with 2.2 60's. But still, 2.73's aren't bad, the 2.56's in a buddies 78 T/A are bad, evenm with my old 400/2004R combo. It won't even break em loose, it just kinda chirps all the way through 1st gear till ~60MPH. LoL! And the OD coupled with those gears makes for some serious low RPM high speed cruising...
Do it to it, it will probably feel like you picked up 50 hp!
Don't get me wrong, my '79 pulled hard and cruised all day at a decent RPM, but to do a respectable burnout I had to practically stand on the brakes and what's the fun in that? It's a lot more fun smokin em through 1-2-3 and having some snappy response down low when you're actually trying to go somewhere in a hurry.

[Mr.VENGEANCE]

100k?

wooord?:Alchy:

[LowBuckX]

:Alchy: LIAR :here!:

Wow your a bright one :idea:
Im wondering how with you being in the Nether regions did you live the scene on the streets of the USA IN the 60S and 70s? Books are slanted and genneraly 50% true. Anyone can write a book it just takes a real ignorant person to beleive everything word for word cover to cover.

[Roadrage David]

Now I know why they call you "Roadrage!" :enguard: Sorry if I offended you, you're not my enemy, just another gearhead from a different school of thought.

Maybe we hang out in different circles, but I don't see too many brand loyalists anymore. In my opinion, the aftermarket has blurred the lines between the "big three" and others. Now it is possible to build a better car from the ground up with all new aftermarket parts. Classic "resto-mods" have proven immensely popular, as proven by myriad TV shows such as "Overhaulin." And yes, people will buy them if they are built right, and pay top dollar.

Brand loyalty only makes sense anymore to the #'s matching crowd. I am not bashing them in any way, as I love a beautifully restored machine and I believe certain machines should be preserved as an important part of our automotive history. But such cars are not built for performance--they're built for show. What cracks me up is how many of these guys don't respect my point of view, even while I respect theirs. I have actually had guys at Pontiac shows turn away in disgust from my car and refuse to talk to me, because I didn't restore my car to stock. And my car is not rare by any means or deserving of such a resto. The majority of folks can't get enough of it, and can appreciate what I am trying to do.

From a performance point of view, it doesn't make sense anymore to stick with OEM stuff. Not to mention, if you are building a car for yourself to drive and enjoy (which most of us are), build it how you want and to heII with what anyone says.

I am sure we are way off topic by now...what was this post about again? :confused: to tell you the truth i would walk away ore not even bother chekking a pontiac with a chevy engine eather!!!. brand loalty hase nothing to do with matchin nrs imo, haveing said that every man for himself . i consider the engine the harth and soul of the car, together with its body shell its the origenal disighn of the brand , staying within these options tuning a car up towards a serius piece of mashinery with all the upgrades gives me at least the feeling that im still driving a Pontiac Firebird ore transam ore GTO. THE NAME pONTIAC STANDS FOR SOMETING SAME GOSE FOR THE OTHER BRANDS, sticking diferend engines of varius brands in there, makes it just a car!!! the identety is gone............

[Roadrage David]

Wow your a bright one :idea:
Im wondering how with you being in the Nether regions did you live the scene on the streets of the USA IN the 60S and 70s? Books are slanted and genneraly 50% true. Anyone can write a book it just takes a real ignorant person to beleive everything word for word cover to cover. was mend as a comik relief!!,.................. every american muscle car from the 60,s and 70,s where also produced in the Swiss and Belgium GM plants overhere in europe, same as in the usa, but build with swiss and euro ecselence.. in the 60,s i was to young in the 70,s plenty of a muscle cars blasting around here on a daily basis witch made me a muscle car nut.

[Charley Lillard]

A different angle example....... A 32 Ford with a Chevy engine is worth more than the same car with a Ford engine.

[Bandit]

brand loalty hase nothing to do with matchin nrs imo, haveing said that every man for himself . THE NAME pONTIAC STANDS FOR SOMETING SAME GOSE FOR THE OTHER BRANDS, sticking diferend engines of varius brands in there, makes it just a car!!! the identety is gone............
So then I guess we should break the sad news to all the proud owners of 3rd and 4th gen Firebird and Trans Ams out there that they are not driving "real" Pontiacs--their cars all have a Chevy corporate engine. Not to mention my other TA, it's a '79 with the factory Olds 403, I guess it's not a Pontiac either? Dang, I'll never be able to sell it! :pat:

[WS6]

not to split hairs too much as it really doesn't matter, but the Fourth gens had GM corporate engines. They were not Chevy's. The TPI can be agured to be GM Corporate but it really is nothing more than EFI for a SBC. The gen II(LT1) and gen III are new design GM corporate engines.

Rob you're right. The second gen TAs have been ahead of the market in appreciation. The later ones are gaining value ever so quietly. TATA(10th Anniversay) cars, 50th anniversary, and W72 cars are leading the pack.

Charley, I love your little snippets of information that just seem to pop up as your read down the screen. thanks.

[Bandit]

not to split hairs too much as it really doesn't matter, but the Fourth gens had GM corporate engines. They were not Chevy's. The TPI can be agured to be GM Corporate but it really is nothing more than EFI for a SBC. The gen II(LT1) and gen III are new design GM corporate engines.

Thanks, that just reinforces my point. I should have written "Chevy/corporate" because 3rd and 4th gens used either/or. Either way, no Pontiac engines were put in a Pontiac f-body for 20 years (1982-2002). The point is, who gives a flip if you stick a GM (whatever) engine in your f-body. As long as it's not a rare or desireable example (i.e. SD 455 or 400 4-spd SE), it won't devalue the car IMHO.

[Roadrage David]

Thanks, that just reinforces my point. I should have written "Chevy/corporate" because 3rd and 4th gens used either/or. Either way, no Pontiac engines were put in a Pontiac f-body for 20 years (1982-2002). The point is, who gives a flip if you stick a GM (whatever) engine in your f-body. As long as it's not a rare or desireable example (i.e. SD 455 or 400 4-spd SE), it won't devalue the car IMHO. I beg to differ sir!!. go on e bay ore any other car selling site and look at the valieuw of a olds powerd firebird ore chevy compared to the traditional injun engine!! the proof is in the puding , bij the way by the time pontiac had to stick in 403 olds engines in there cars GM alredy disided to cansel the pmd and other motor divisions. the olds 403 was availeble in big quantties and needed to used up first.............. and indeed the pontiac comunety is still very sad that the 3 gens where and are running around with chevy engines someting they cant change. the incorperate later and today engines are more acsepted is the pontiac cars like the GTO,,,,,,,,,,,,,,........

[southernfriedcj]

Give me a '72 455HO!:cool:

[Bandit]

indeed the pontiac comunety is still very sad that the 3 gens where and are running around with chevy engines someting they cant change. the incorperate later and today engines are more acsepted is the pontiac cars like the GTO,,,,,,,,,,,,,,........
:nopity: :crying: Well I guess the Pontiac faithful got over it, 'cause I see lots of them driving newer F-bodies. Let's face it, they were great cars, poncho motor or not. :twothumbs And they sold like hotcakes. At least GM didn't put Isuzu 4-bangers or something in them. :usa:
I guess you and I will have to respectfully agree to disagree, or we'll be arguing about this until they ban internal combustion. :hammer:

[BonzoHansen]

Now your over reacting and just being silly!!!!.. first of all im getting tired of ecsplaining 500 times a year that im dislectic and dutch. .I guessing an occasional use of the "ENTER" button on the keyboards would do the trick. Just break the text up. The text gets hard to read. No offense. :twothumbs /hijackoff/

[Roadrage David]

:nopity: :crying: Well I guess the Pontiac faithful got over it, 'cause I see lots of them driving newer F-bodies. Let's face it, they were great cars, poncho motor or not. :twothumbs And they sold like hotcakes. At least GM didn't put Isuzu 4-bangers or something in them. :usa:
I guess you and I will have to respectfully agree to disagree, or we'll be arguing about this until they ban internal combustion. :hammer: i dont agree to disagree, because i know im right . askt all the Ford mustang owners on this forum why they dont stick a chevy engine in there 67 fastback,, ore why dont the 68/69 camaro fans stick a Ford engine under there hood!!!!!...............looks to me plenty of people DO care.....

[6'9"Witha69]

i dont agree to disagree, because i know im right . askt all the Ford mustang owners on this forum why they dont stick a chevy engine in there 67 fastback,, ore why dont the 68/69 camaro fans stick a Ford engine under there hood!!!!!...............looks to me plenty of people DO care.....There IS a guy here who has a Ferd engine in a 68 Camaro and MANY fords run CHEVY engines. I was planning to swap the 390 in my 62 to a CHEVY engine until I fixed the leaks (for now). Have you seen the trend of putting FORD 5.0/4.6 and Chevy 350s and LSxs into Miatas, RX7s, Jaguars, Jeeps, Internationals (I did this to a '79 Scout once). Jeez, there is so much of that going on but you seem to dare us say different based on what, your ignorance, indifference or thick head?

This needs to stop now.

[Damn True]

Hot-Rod: noun;

Hot rods are custom-built cars. Originally the term was used to the practice of taking an old car, usually a Ford, and improving its performance by reducing weight (usually by removing roof, hood, bumpers, windshield and fenders), lower it, change or tune the engine to give more power, add fat wheels for traction and apply a distinctive paint job. The term may have originated from "hot roadster;" it was used in the 1950s and 1960s as a derogatory term for any car that did not fit into the mainstream. Other sources indicate that the term was derived from replacement of connecting rods in engines to allow higher RPMs to be reached without failure. When hot rodding became commercialized in the 1970s, magazines and associations catering to "street rodders" were started.

The Hot Rod era extended from 1945 to the beginning of the muscle car era (about 1965), reaching its height in about 1955. During this time, there was an adequate supply of what hot rodders called "vintage tin": junk cars manufactured prior to 1942 that could be had cheaply. Many of these had sound bodies and frames and had been junked for mechanical reasons, since the running gear of early cars was not durable. The typical hot rod was heavily modified, particularly by replacing the engine and transmission, and possibly other components, including brakes and steering. Certain engines, such as the flathead Ford V8, and the small block Chevrolet V8 were particularly popular as replacements because of their compact size, availability, and power. The early Hemi was popular in applications that required more power, such as drag racing.

IMO, by the very definition of the word we are encouraged to change the engine. Particularly if it's a big heavy tank of a thing and can be replaced with something lighter, more efficient and more powerfull.

[Roadrage David]

There IS a guy here who has a Ferd engine in a 68 Camaro and MANY fords run CHEVY engines. I was planning to swap the 390 in my 62 to a CHEVY engine until I fixed the leaks (for now). Have you seen the trend of putting FORD 5.0/4.6 and Chevy 350s and LSxs into Miatas, RX7s, Jaguars, Jeeps, Internationals (I did this to a '79 Scout once). Jeez, there is so much of that going on but you seem to dare us say different based on what, your ignorance, indifference or thick head?

This needs to stop now. hot roding is a totaly diferend seen then the protouring g mashine seen of today. the guy you mentiond sticking the ford in his camaro alredy had the engine sitting around(redusing costs). . lets have a poll and ask how manny chevy powerd fords mustangs are on this forum ore howmany fords powerd camaro,s!!!!!!!!.... most of the time when we see these interhanges of engines is in the drag race seen......