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kamaroman68
12-07-2006, 06:20 AM
Hello all. Debating whether or not to put a big block old school engine or an Ls 2 engine in my 68 camaro. After looking at pricing for an Ls2 on ebay it seems to me that i would spend a lot of money to get a 400 horse engine with computer from a 05 gto where also on ebay i find a big block 598 long block for around 2500 less that would make a ton more horsepower in my opinion. I guess I would like to hear pros cons on either build. Also how strong is an ls2? how much power will it handle if i were to TT it? Thanks Chris

trapin
12-07-2006, 08:55 AM
Why go LS2? If you're looking at a budget...go LS1 and put money into it to get the power that you want. I bought my LS1/4L60E pullout from eBay for $3250. I will sink about $2000 to upgrade the motor, that's with shipping and handling and other misc. like gaskets, etc. Figure the 4L60E was worth $250...that means I paid $3000 for the motor, $2000 on upgrades.

When I'm done I'll have....

1.) Aluminum block
2.) CNC ported LS6 Aluminum heads
3.) Roller rocker arms
4.) Hydraulic Roller Camshaft
5.) Double roller timing chain
6.) Chromemoly pushrods
7.) Ported LS6 oil pump
8.) 160 degree thermostat
9.) LS6 intake
10.) Fuel injection
11.) Serpentine drive
12.) High torque starter
13.) Alternator
14.) Water pump
15.) Power Steering pump
16.) Complete Wiring Harness
17.) PCM
18.) Approx 460 horsepower, 430 ftlbs of torque (at crank)

.....all for the bargin basement price of $5000. Plus, I plan to sell the old parts off the motor (the heads, manifolds, intake, air conditioning generator). So that'll bring me down below $5000. I'm not sure how you beat the power, features, and the weight savings for that kind of money. I don't know that you can. If you tried to build the same motor with the same features, the same extras, and with the same amount of horsepower and torque using even a small block Chevy...you're going to be north of $15,000. Hell, $5000 won't even buy you a bare bones LS2, you still need a few extra hundred. And even for that amount of money, the LS2 comes with virtually nothing.

Just some food for thought. Hope it helps.

kamaroman68
12-07-2006, 09:39 AM
Tony thanks for the reply. But how much will that block ls1/2 handle? 460 horse is a good amount of power but if you want in the neighborhood of 800 horse how much money are you going to have to spend to get there. I guess what i am looking for is all out hp and tq. i maybe wrong but taking a big block longblock for 5500 adding an intake, distributor oil pan and carb for lets say another 2000 and coming out with near 650-700 hp seems a lot cheaper to me but old technology. The big block long block I am referring to can be found at ebay. Dart big m block, afr heads eagle crank,etc etc etc- a lot of good parts. Thanks Chris

camcojb
12-07-2006, 09:45 AM
Tony thanks for the reply. But how much will that block ls1/2 handle? 460 horse is a good amount of power but if you want in the neighborhood of 800 horse how much money are you going to have to spend to get there. I guess what i am looking for is all out hp and tq. i maybe wrong but taking a big block longblock for 5500 adding an intake, distributor oil pan and carb for lets say another 2000 and coming out with near 650-700 hp seems a lot cheaper to me but old technology. The big block long block I am referring to can be found at ebay. Dart big m block, afr heads eagle crank,etc etc etc- a lot of good parts. Thanks Chris

The AFR heads and Dart block are $4000-$4500 by themselves. That price is scary low.

Jody

kamaroman68
12-07-2006, 09:53 AM
Not to argue with anyone on this forum but ebay has them up for 2399 bare block. Chris

kamaroman68
12-07-2006, 10:00 AM
heres the linkhttp://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270064406758&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RSEE_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT&refitem=270055326626&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=active_view_item&usedrule1=UpSell_LogicX&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget

kamaroman68
12-07-2006, 10:01 AM
Is it a scam??????? Thanks Chris

camcojb
12-07-2006, 12:16 PM
Not to argue with anyone on this forum but ebay has them up for 2399 bare block. Chris

I said the block AND heads are $4000-$4500. So how do you get any decent parts inside plus machining for $1000? That's also a tall block, so requires a special manifold or spacers, different distributor, and in most cars causes fitment issues and custom headers.

Jody

trapin
12-07-2006, 01:27 PM
Tony thanks for the reply. But how much will that block ls1/2 handle? 460 horse is a good amount of power but if you want in the neighborhood of 800 horse how much money are you going to have to spend to get there. I guess what i am looking for is all out hp and tq. i maybe wrong but taking a big block longblock for 5500 adding an intake, distributor oil pan and carb for lets say another 2000 and coming out with near 650-700 hp seems a lot cheaper to me but old technology. The big block long block I am referring to can be found at ebay. Dart big m block, afr heads eagle crank,etc etc etc- a lot of good parts. Thanks Chris
Oh, I just assumed you were looking in the range of power that the LS2 was in since you had mentioned the option of purchasing one. For the numbers you are talking about, the build would get a bit more pricey. New bottem end with forged internals, re-sleeved cylinder walls, etc. Yeah, that's gonna drive the price up pretty quick. But you'll still be a ton lighter than a big block.

Damn True
12-07-2006, 02:38 PM
Why go LS2? If you're looking at a budget...go LS1 and put money into it to get the power that you want. I bought my LS1/4L60E pullout from eBay for $3250. I will sink about $2000 to upgrade the motor, that's with shipping and handling and other misc. like gaskets, etc. Figure the 4L60E was worth $250...that means I paid $3000 for the motor, $2000 on upgrades.

When I'm done I'll have....

1.) Aluminum block
2.) CNC ported LS6 Aluminum heads
3.) Roller rocker arms
4.) Hydraulic Roller Camshaft
5.) Double roller timing chain
6.) Chromemoly pushrods
7.) Ported LS6 oil pump
8.) 160 degree thermostat
9.) LS6 intake
10.) Fuel injection
11.) Serpentine drive
12.) High torque starter
13.) Alternator
14.) Water pump
15.) Power Steering pump
16.) Complete Wiring Harness
17.) PCM
18.) Approx 460 horsepower, 430 ftlbs of torque (at crank)

.....all for the bargin basement price of $5000. Plus, I plan to sell the old parts off the motor (the heads, manifolds, intake, air conditioning generator). So that'll bring me down below $5000. I'm not sure how you beat the power, features, and the weight savings for that kind of money. I don't know that you can. If you tried to build the same motor with the same features, the same extras, and with the same amount of horsepower and torque using even a small block Chevy...you're going to be north of $15,000. Hell, $5000 won't even buy you a bare bones LS2, you still need a few extra hundred. And even for that amount of money, the LS2 comes with virtually nothing.

Just some food for thought. Hope it helps.

Pretty much the blueprint for what I am going to do with mine, but I am holding out hope to find an LS2 takeout from a GTO or Vette. Crossing my fingers that the timing/cash matrix is lined up if I find one.

4OfaKind
12-08-2006, 09:08 AM
You would still be better off going with an LS series motor than anything Gen I small or big block. AND you can do it rather cheaply if you know what to look for.

This is the reason I stopped planning my 400 ci SBC and started planning a 400ci LS.

Blocks: You can find an iron SBC 4-bolt 350 01 block for about $100-$300 Pros: Handle about 800 fwhp max Cons: see pros, its iron, aftermarket blocks cost 4x as much as the most expensive seasoned block, aluminum 10x as much :eek:
You can buy an iron 5.3l LS block for $75 machine it to 5.7l
Pros: good reverse cooled block, handle 4" stroke w/o clearancing, handle 1000 fwhp for less than $500 Cons: max bore is 3.890", its iron (GM makes an aluminum 5.3l but not worth buying because they can only take a .010 overbore)
You can find 6.0l LQ4/9 blocks that come w/ a 4" bore for about $500 new they are about $700 Pros: Same as above Cons: only that it is iron
Aluminum 6.0l blocks are only $1000 1/4 the price of Gen I SBCs
Pros: 100lbs handle 1000hp 4" bore stock Cons: Someone enlighten me

Internals:
a stock 3.622" Gen III crank will handle 1500hp (ask Nitro Rocket)
Con: short stroke Pro: $100 from a salvage yard
There are a wealth of forged rods and pistons available that cost about the same you would pay for a Gen I motor small/big.
Total cost for a rotating assembly using a stock crank $1200-$1500

Heads:
Here is what sold me: GM produces a new head for the Escalade called an L92 that flows 330 cfm stock out of the box and costs $400 ea complete! Someone show me an aluminum 12 deg head or 23 deg for that matter that flows as well for that price?!

Intake:
The one that will work w/ L92 heads is called an L76 and is $200 bare and $500 w/ fuel rails and TB.

So for $3800 you can build an aluminum 6.0l LS motor that is capable of 600 hp NA (depending on cam and header selection) by just putting it together. Add another $500-$1000 for used accessories including a stock ECM and wiring harness from a salvage yard and you have a high performance motor for less than $5000. :yeah:

Heads alone on a Gen I motor is $3K. Gen III is a no-brainer.

Mal

brabbit50422
12-08-2006, 09:48 AM
there is a guy on here and team chevelle who supposedly home brewed an ls1 with twin turbos and it handles it all day long he upgraded the bottom end i think and fuel rails maybe i cant remember to well but i know the mods were minimal and the biggest cost was the custom manifolds he had to fab up for it and all together with the motor and everything it cost him like 10 or 12 thousand and he has 500- 1000 horsepower on pump gas. it all sounded pretty good to me.

at any rate good luck and keep us posted i plan on going Lsx myself

Vegas69
12-08-2006, 07:41 PM
Go big block with all the aluminum you can bolt on. Their is no replacement for displacement. You can build a 489 or 496 for like $6000 and make 600/600 no sweat and still spray it if you want.

Nine Ball
12-09-2006, 08:04 AM
I'm happy to see all of you guys doing your LSX research, all good info above!

Bang for the buck goes to the LS1 still. You can hit 800 HP with forged internals (stock crank) and turbo or supercharger no problem. Even with stock cubes. I'm building a forged stock-cube LS1 right now ('98 block) with AFR 205 heads, LS6 intake manifold, and a D1 Procharger. It should make 700-750 at the wheels without much effort. Just good parts, with good tuning.

streetk14
12-17-2006, 11:58 AM
Hello all. Debating whether or not to put a big block old school engine or an Ls 2 engine in my 68 camaro. After looking at pricing for an Ls2 on ebay it seems to me that i would spend a lot of money to get a 400 horse engine with computer from a 05 gto where also on ebay i find a big block 598 long block for around 2500 less that would make a ton more horsepower in my opinion. I guess I would like to hear pros cons on either build. Also how strong is an ls2? how much power will it handle if i were to TT it? Thanks Chris


You are looking at two very different engines. I'd say the choice should depend on what you plan to do with the car and what you expect from it.

The weight difference between a big block and an LSX is huge. If you are building something that you plan to make handle well, the LSX is the clear choice.

The next is drivability and fuel ecomomy. I know fuel ecomomy doesn't mean much to most of us here (it doesn't to me), but it is something to consider if you will be driving the car a lot. A mild ,blown LSX can easily push the 600 hp you want (even with a stock bottom end) and return great mileage. It will also drive like a new car and make you want to get behind the wheel as much as you can.

Just a few things to think about.

Andy

Bandit
12-17-2006, 12:53 PM
You are looking at two very different engines. I'd say the choice should depend on what you plan to do with the car and what you expect from it.

The weight difference between a big block and an LSX is huge. If you are building something that you plan to make handle well, the LSX is the clear choice.

The next is drivability and fuel ecomomy. I know fuel ecomomy doesn't mean much to most of us here (it doesn't to me), but it is something to consider if you will be driving the car a lot. A mild ,blown LSX can easily push the 600 hp you want (even with a stock bottom end) and return great mileage. It will also drive like a new car and make you want to get behind the wheel as much as you can.

Just a few things to think about.

Andy

All true, UNLESS you compare apples to apples and start talking ram-jet or Holley TBI or Edelbrock Pro-flo fuel injection on a big-block. They are simple, effective and not expensive, and your fuel economy will be more than acceptable, even with a huge-cube engine. If you can afford it, an aluminum block and heads will drop a couple hundred pounds off the package--now you're in the same weight range as the LS motors, only with a stronger block and potential for huge cubes, which has its own advantages.
Such a big-block would certainly cost more than an LS 1/2, about twice as much probably, but may be worth it to some.

As far as the weight issue, an iron-block aluminum head big chevy (more realistic for most of us) with lots of lightweight accessory parts will only outweigh an LS motor by 150 lbs or so--a negligible difference for most of us. I personally think the weight issue is over-exaggerated. It's extremely important for professional racers, but for us normal dudes it doesn't matter much. As was said, it depends on what you want to get out of the car.

I say forget gas mileage and driveability, throw a carbureted 598 or 632 in there and have fun enjoying sick power and the extreme cool factor of having a Rat underhood! (But that's just me) :twothumbs

streetk14
12-17-2006, 06:53 PM
All true, UNLESS you compare apples to apples and start talking ram-jet or Holley TBI or Edelbrock Pro-flo fuel injection on a big-block. They are simple, effective and not expensive, and your fuel economy will be more than acceptable, even with a huge-cube engine. If you can afford it, an aluminum block and heads will drop a couple hundred pounds off the package--now you're in the same weight range as the LS motors, only with a stronger block and potential for huge cubes, which has its own advantages.
Such a big-block would certainly cost more than an LS 1/2, about twice as much probably, but may be worth it to some.

As far as the weight issue, an iron-block aluminum head big chevy (more realistic for most of us) with lots of lightweight accessory parts will only outweigh an LS motor by 150 lbs or so--a negligible difference for most of us. I personally think the weight issue is over-exaggerated. It's extremely important for professional racers, but for us normal dudes it doesn't matter much. As was said, it depends on what you want to get out of the car.

I say forget gas mileage and driveability, throw a carbureted 598 or 632 in there and have fun enjoying sick power and the extreme cool factor of having a Rat underhood! (But that's just me) :twothumbs


Sure, an aluminum big block with fuel injection would be good fun, but like you said, the cost would be a big factor there. I also think you might be looking at closer to 200 lbs between an aluminum headed rat and an LS1 (maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the LS1 was 100 lbs lighter than an aluminum head small block).

The Rat motor has a cool factor, don't get me wrong. I guess I just think an all-aluminum blown and fuel injected small block is cooler. To each his own, I guess.

Like I said before, gas mileage isn't a big deal to me. Burning gas is part of the hobby, and I'm willing to pay what it takes to drive my cars.

But, driveability (at least to me) is a big deal. I've dealt with tempermental carb'd motors on the street for a long time. I was sick of it, which is why I got into the whole LSX craze. I hate to say it, but I probably won't ever build another carbureted motor after having this LS6. It's just as happy cruising along at 1500 rpm as it is screaming at 6500. I can't say the same about any other motor I've owned. It makes me want to hit the key and drive, and driving these cars is what this hobby is all about.

Andy

Bow Tie 67
12-17-2006, 07:05 PM
My sentiments exactly, once I had my ls1 running I would walk out into the garage and chose that car over the other one 8 out of 10 times. Turn the key and go!!!!!!!!!!

JChristian1835
12-17-2006, 07:11 PM
It was an easy no brainer for me.. lsx motor... can't beat the fuel economy and also the smoothness. Also I didn't want a car i had to constantly be under the hood of and from what i've read about blow-through setups on carbs.. the guys seem to be constantly tinkering on them(guys with this setup might have alot better advice on this) but also just the fact that in my c5 corvette.. it was nice throwing it in 6th gear and getting 30 mpg on the interstate..

Bandit
12-17-2006, 07:39 PM
Hello all. Debating whether or not to put a big block old school engine or an Ls 2 engine in my 68 camaro. After looking at pricing for an Ls2 on ebay it seems to me that i would spend a lot of money to get a 400 horse engine with computer from a 05 gto where also on ebay i find a big block 598 long block for around 2500 less that would make a ton more horsepower in my opinion. I guess I would like to hear pros cons on either build. Also how strong is an ls2? how much power will it handle if i were to TT it? Thanks Chris
I think we need to review the original post^
No doubt the LS motors are user-friendly and efficient, but I think the main issue being asked about here is bang for the buck, and the aftermarket big blocks deliver. Take your pick between GM, Shafiroff, World, or other crate motors around $7,000, and 600+hp for the big blocks is just the starting point. Almost 1 hp for every $10 of the purchase price is a good deal by anyone's standard. These are terrific carburated turnkey BRAND NEW engines with a WARRANTY, and the big displacement and relatively low CR means they will run on 92 octane gas, idle decent, and be very streetable indeed. Let's not forget that all cars used to be carburated, and it worked. With a relatively mild big block like this and a Holley or Demon street carb you can run it for years and years with no problems. Maybe less problems than EFI because you don't have the possible ECM issues etc. that can go wrong. I drove my TA to work every day and even cross-country a couple of times pretty much as it sits now with the same big block and Holley. So I have to pump the gas a couple of times before I turn the key--so what? It works for me. I know I am in the minority now with all of the LS motor craze, but I just don't see what's broken that needs fixing. So I will stick with old-school for now. Whatever turns your prop I guess...

1Fine69
12-18-2006, 05:13 AM
im with you bandit. i got worlds all aluminum 427 small block and i couldnt be happier. i was over at ls1tech discussing the same problem you have. i added the pros and cons of each. i think hands down a crate motor like worlds will be cheap and easy for the horsepower your looking for. i thought about the type of car my camaro would be though. if i wanted drivability, easy starting in bad weather, and all the things an ls would come with thats the way i would lean. i drive my car only in good weather so i was fine with a carb. i still wanted low weight all aluminum with big horses and world took care of me. there were a lot of questions i had to ask myself that lead me to the engine i picked. even though i went with a carbed setup i still want to go to that holley fi system! good luck and i hope you get the right setup

1Fine69
12-18-2006, 05:20 AM
this might help

http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=438147

http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=441784

http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=451637

4OfaKind
12-19-2006, 11:45 AM
This might help as well:
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/tech/engines_drivetrain/complete_builds/0701ch_chevy_small_block_engine_dyno_tests/


Mal

93Polo
12-20-2006, 07:40 AM
This might help as well:
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/tech/engines_drivetrain/complete_builds/0701ch_chevy_small_block_engine_dyno_tests/


Mal

The 406 is running more cam and plenty of LS2 402s are making 500rwhp.

4OfaKind
12-20-2006, 11:46 AM
The 406 is running more cam and plenty of LS2 402s are making 500rwhp.

That is my point. If you want 600hp you can easily get it from an LSx motor complete for the same or less than a BBC. The LS2 they did was $9500. GM is making new L92 heads that floww 330cfm @ .600 lift for $800 a set. That is $1500 less than the heads used in the above comparison!
So add it up:
New Aluminum 6.0l block $1000 SCDPC
New Eagle forged crank 4" stroke $1000 SCDPC
New L92 Heads $800
New offset rockers for heads $700
Cam $500
New L92 intake w/ TB & Fuel rails $500
New Forged rods/pistons $1500 est for both sets
All necessary accessories from your local savage yard including ECM
$1000
And you have a 600hp motor for around $7000. Its a no brainer. :dunno:
It is hard to beat the price/performance 15deg heads straight from the factory.

Mal

68Formula
12-20-2006, 01:21 PM
The LSX engines are fantastic. Lots of pluses noted here.

Don't forget when determining costs, the installation to make the swap and remember you are comparing a rebuilt engine vs. a low mileage (hopefully) pulled engine.

From a personal standpoint. First do you have the time to do all the necessary mods to make the swap (see the links people have posted). Or will the project stall once you get to hooking everything up properly? Secondly, if you install the engine and it doesn't run properly will you be able to diagnose the problem? Finally, can you do the cal yourself (assuming you mod the engine) or will you rely on someone else each time you upgrade the power?

These would be the factors to base the decision on.

Read thoroughly through the links every provided to make sure you understand the depth of the project.

Bandit
12-20-2006, 02:30 PM
From a personal standpoint. First do you have the time to do all the necessary mods to make the swap (see the links people have posted). Or will the project stall once you get to hooking everything up properly? Secondly, if you install the engine and it doesn't run properly will you be able to diagnose the problem? Finally, can you do the cal yourself (assuming you mod the engine) or will you rely on someone else each time you upgrade the power?

Nope--I turn wrenches on my own car, but I'll be honest enough to admit that installing, hooking up and tuning a late-model engine is a bit out of the scope of my ability at this point. Whereas a carb'd big block swap I could have up and running in a weekend at most.

JChristian1835
12-20-2006, 02:42 PM
The LSX engines are fantastic. Lots of pluses noted here.

Don't forget when determining costs, the installation to make the swap and remember you are comparing a rebuilt engine vs. a low mileage (hopefully) pulled engine.

From a personal standpoint. First do you have the time to do all the necessary mods to make the swap (see the links people have posted). Or will the project stall once you get to hooking everything up properly? Secondly, if you install the engine and it doesn't run properly will you be able to diagnose the problem? Finally, can you do the cal yourself (assuming you mod the engine) or will you rely on someone else each time you upgrade the power?

These would be the factors to base the decision on.

Read thoroughly through the links every provided to make sure you understand the depth of the project.

Here's the way I look at it.. I didn't know anything before I got into the LSx series motors.. I knew carbed but nothing about fuel injected.. now a car is a car.. a motor is a motor.. if you have a basic understanding of a motor than you can learn anything you want about carb setups or fuel injected setups.... just my $.02.

93Polo
12-21-2006, 08:00 AM
That is my point. If you want 600hp you can easily get it from an LSx motor complete for the same or less than a BBC. The LS2 they did was $9500. GM is making new L92 heads that floww 330cfm @ .600 lift for $800 a set. That is $1500 less than the heads used in the above comparison!
So add it up:
New Aluminum 6.0l block $1000 SCDPC
New Eagle forged crank 4" stroke $1000 SCDPC
New L92 Heads $800
New offset rockers for heads $700
Cam $500
New L92 intake w/ TB & Fuel rails $500
New Forged rods/pistons $1500 est for both sets
All necessary accessories from your local savage yard including ECM
$1000
And you have a 600hp motor for around $7000. Its a no brainer. :dunno:
It is hard to beat the price/performance 15deg heads straight from the factory.

Mal

I agree. You could also run a LQ4/LQ9 block for $500. Plenty of new cylinder head option are coming out and prices are going down. 4" bore LS7 port design heads are on the way. GMPP is also releasing carb intakes for L92s and LS7s.

If you shop around there are some great deals on cate Ls2 402s (~$4,200), LQx 408s, and L92 415s (~$4,500) prices are from a quick search.